Talk Elections

General Politics => Political Debate => Topic started by: greenforest32 on January 19, 2012, 12:07:35 AM



Title: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: greenforest32 on January 19, 2012, 12:07:35 AM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on January 19, 2012, 12:30:16 AM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.
True, but that doesn't mean the pledge itself should be abolished.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: greenforest32 on January 19, 2012, 12:44:37 AM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.
True, but that doesn't mean the pledge itself should be abolished.

I was thinking abolished as a practice but I see my title/question doesn't reflect that.

I should be more clear :P


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: dead0man on January 19, 2012, 12:48:31 AM
Thankfully nobody is forced to say it heh?


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Platypus on January 19, 2012, 11:19:31 AM
As a foreigner, the whole thing looks more North Korean than American.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Free Palestine on January 19, 2012, 11:27:48 AM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

Agreed.  Though of course someone will come in here and preach about the wonders of nationalist brainwashing.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: tpfkaw on January 19, 2012, 11:39:14 AM
As a foreigner, the whole thing looks more North Korean than American.

Unsurprisingly, as it was written by a socialist and popularized by the fascist Wilson administration's scaremongering over "disloyal" immigrants.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Free Palestine on January 19, 2012, 12:02:22 PM
As a foreigner, the whole thing looks more North Korean than American.

Unsurprisingly, as it was written by a socialist and popularized by the fascist Wilson administration's scaremongering over "disloyal" immigrants.

And let's not forget about the original hand gesture...


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: © tweed on January 19, 2012, 12:55:48 PM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

1943 SCOTUS decision West Virginia Board of Education vs Barnette decided that students cannot be forced to acknowledge the flag/recite the pledge in public schools.  however this does not mean that significant pressure cannot be applied to the student, as was the case with me in my 11th grade math class, in which my teacher observed me on the first day sitting quietly during the recitation of the pledge.  she called me to her desk and told me that she "knew people who died Over There" and that I must stand.  I informed her of the SCOTUS decision, but she didn't budge.  I then took to reciting the Stalin-era version of the Soviet National Anthem during the pledge.

the next week an anonymous teacher referred me to the school psychologist.  I'll never know exactly which teacher it was, but I have a sneaking suspicion is was the math teacher.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Yelnoc on January 19, 2012, 03:22:26 PM
No, you cannot abolish words.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Free Palestine on January 19, 2012, 10:49:17 PM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

1943 SCOTUS decision West Virginia Board of Education vs Barnette decided that students cannot be forced to acknowledge the flag/recite the pledge in public schools.  however this does not mean that significant pressure cannot be applied to the student, as was the case with me in my 11th grade math class, in which my teacher observed me on the first day sitting quietly during the recitation of the pledge.  she called me to her desk and told me that she "knew people who died Over There" and that I must stand.  I informed her of the SCOTUS decision, but she didn't budge.  I then took to reciting the Stalin-era version of the Soviet National Anthem during the pledge.

the next week an anonymous teacher referred me to the school psychologist.  I'll never know exactly which teacher it was, but I have a sneaking suspicion is was the math teacher.

That's public school for you.  Obey or your life will be hell.

Sad that we live in a society where justice is only something that exists in the public sphere, and where freedom and democracy are only relevant to the ballot box.  We think it's horrible when governments behave arbitrarily, unjustly, and without consent, yet it is seen as perfectly fine, once someone goes to school, goes home, or goes to work.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: FEMA Camp Administrator on January 19, 2012, 10:52:51 PM
Shouldn't a pledge last forever? They act like it only lasts 24 hours. They have cheapened pledges.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on January 20, 2012, 11:46:58 AM
Kids have the option not to say it.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: tmthforu94 on January 20, 2012, 08:56:24 PM
::)

Considering that it is not mandated, no.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: RI on January 21, 2012, 02:33:06 PM
What would "abolishing" the pledge even mean? No one is forced to do it, and it's not mandated by the government, so...


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on January 22, 2012, 01:55:44 PM
The Pledge jumped the shark when the words "under God" were added to it in 1954.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Frozen Sky Ever Why on January 22, 2012, 02:42:35 PM
I voted no because of the wording. I don't think anyone should be required to say it, that is all.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Franzl on January 22, 2012, 07:32:38 PM
It's really a stupid thing to recite every day before school. But it's one of those American patriotism things that is pretty much artificial. Wave the flag, recite the pledge, don't begin a musical without singing the national anthem, etc.

It makes each recital worth less because of the routine, and I doubt the students taking part really know or care what they're saying for the most part.

But hey. USA!


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 22, 2012, 10:02:17 PM
I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

I am going to stop writing in posts like these because it makes me feel sick to think how much outrage you all have towards this country compared to true evil in other nations... thank God people like you weren't in charge during our world wars or when we were fighting for independence. Every one here always says how Reagan could not make it in a GOP primary nowadays- I agree! But when things like the Pledge which are mainstream are being attacked by the left, it shows which extremism is more pervasive


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 23, 2012, 12:00:37 AM
I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

Because this thread is devoted to discussing the Pledge. We talk about other things at different times. What's strange about that?

What is strange is that in the eyes of many leftists- none that have spoken here- the pledge is a more important issue to fight then radical Islam


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Free Palestine on January 23, 2012, 03:03:24 AM
I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

Because this thread is devoted to discussing the Pledge. We talk about other things at different times. What's strange about that?

What is strange is that in the eyes of many leftists- none that have spoken here- the pledge is a more important issue to fight then radical Islam

Herp derp, so let's not focus on this at all and focus on issues one at a time.  Derp.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: FloridaRepublican on January 23, 2012, 03:21:08 AM
No. It wouldn't accomplish anything because it's not mandatory in the first place. Abolishing it altogether would just serve as a meaningless gesture that would serve no purpose but to satisfy a group of people searching not for pragmatism, but for quixotic, anti-traditional-at-all-costs backlash against the establishment.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: dead0man on January 23, 2012, 06:57:18 AM
Thankfully nobody is forced to say it heh?

As others have noted, that's not really the case in far too many American public schools.
I'm sure it happens, but anecdotal evidence isn't worth all that much.  I'm guessing most people (>95%) who stand quietly while the pledge is recited don't take any sh**t.  When they do take sh**t, it should be noted and the people pushing the sh**t should be forced to stop pushing the sh**t.  Yeah, that's an winnable battle, but so is trying to stop murder.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Insula Dei on January 23, 2012, 07:13:16 AM
Is this really something you'd do every morning in an American High School?


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: dead0man on January 23, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
I'm pretty sure we stopped in Middle School (6-8 grades) and didn't do it in High School...or only did it once a week or something, I don't really remember.  I know we did it in MS, it seems like we did it in HS, but I just can't remember ever doing it.

I just asked my HS aged kid and no, they do not do it in her HS (she kind of laughed at the idea), but they did do it in MS.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Mechaman on January 23, 2012, 09:09:58 AM
I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

I am going to stop writing in posts like these because it makes me feel sick to think how much outrage you all have towards this country compared to true evil in other nations... thank God people like you weren't in charge during our world wars or when we were fighting for independence. Every one here always says how Reagan could not make it in a GOP primary nowadays- I agree! But when things like the Pledge which are mainstream are being attacked by the left, it shows which extremism is more pervasive

Let me ask one question:

What is the point of pledging allegiance to a supposedly "free" country?

Please answer that without any overblown comparison to Nazi Germany, Radical Islam, Stalinist Russia, or Trial Lawyers.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 23, 2012, 09:34:17 AM
To the 2 prior posters- maintaining an American identity is very important...we are free because we are strong, we are not anarchists. I do not believe that someone who opposes a war is unpatriotic- I hated what happened to Max Cleland a while aback, but that is because you can be loyal to our nation while opposing policies...I dont see what is wrong about publicly declaring your allegiance to your nation



Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: © tweed on January 23, 2012, 09:51:46 AM
Is this really something you'd do every morning in an American High School?

we had it every day of every year starting with Kindergarten.  "give us the child for eight years and he will be a Bolshevik forever" - Lenin.  they heeded his advice.


and clarence, one easy answer here is that we are in a position to influence the US government, and insofar as we are in a position to influence it we are responsible for what it ultimately does (what crimes it ultimately commits, if we are to be more dramatic).  meanwhile I can't do much of anything to direct what North Korea or the Somalian Islamic militia or whatever other official enemies are going to do.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 23, 2012, 10:02:49 AM
I understand that point Tweed- but I sometimes cant stand the outrage some people have to nationalism.. I am PROUD to be in this nation where people are free and where minoritires or gays are not killed for who they are, and I am proud to say so every day!


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Franzl on January 23, 2012, 11:26:12 AM
I understand that point Tweed- but I sometimes cant stand the outrage some people have to nationalism.. I am PROUD to be in this nation where people are free and where minoritires or gays are not killed for who they are, and I am proud to say so every day!

You understand there are other free countries (some likely with a higher level of freedom) than the United States?


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: k-onmmunist on January 23, 2012, 12:03:29 PM
I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

I am going to stop writing in posts like these because it makes me feel sick to think how much outrage you all have towards this country compared to true evil in other nations... thank God people like you weren't in charge during our world wars or when we were fighting for independence. Every one here always says how Reagan could not make it in a GOP primary nowadays- I agree! But when things like the Pledge which are mainstream are being attacked by the left, it shows which extremism is more pervasive

Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

No-one thinks the Pledge is "fascist". We just think its outdated and pointless.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Bacon King on January 23, 2012, 01:02:32 PM
I didn't say the pledge for most of high school. Some classes I stood silently, others I sat. I said it on the anniversary of 9/11 though, in full. Most other times I said it I quietly omitted the "under God" part.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 23, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
I understand that point Tweed- but I sometimes cant stand the outrage some people have to nationalism.. I am PROUD to be in this nation where people are free and where minoritires or gays are not killed for who they are, and I am proud to say so every day!

You understand there are other free countries (some likely with a higher level of freedom) than the United States?

Most of these countries would not exist today if my father's generation hadn't saved them! Say all you want about how America is the policeman of the world... I agree there are problems with that... but we have spread or salvaged more freedom then any other nation


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Franzl on January 23, 2012, 08:11:50 PM
While it is true the US has played a big role in securing freedom in the Western world, you can't use that as a free pass to avoid any criticism today. The fact is there are many countries with equal or greater freedom.

And it's not as if America's foreign policy has only been around to spread freedom...let's not pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the US tends to be one of the good guys...but I do get annoyed by the arrogance expressed by many (like in your last post).


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Free Palestine on January 24, 2012, 01:28:11 AM
No. It wouldn't accomplish anything because it's not mandatory in the first place. Abolishing it altogether would just serve as a meaningless gesture that would serve no purpose but to satisfy a group of people searching not for pragmatism, but for quixotic, anti-traditional-at-all-costs backlash against the establishment.

Yeah man, because only stupid kids who want to fight the establishment would support something you disagree with.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 24, 2012, 02:33:34 AM
Is this really something you'd do every morning in an American High School?

Not at mine. Or my middle school.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 24, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
While it is true the US has played a big role in securing freedom in the Western world, you can't use that as a free pass to avoid any criticism today. The fact is there are many countries with equal or greater freedom.

And it's not as if America's foreign policy has only been around to spread freedom...let's not pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the US tends to be one of the good guys...but I do get annoyed by the arrogance expressed by many (like in your last post).

Franzl I am glad to see you type that the USis "one of the good guys" but what annoyes me is the opposite of what annoys you... people who seek to point out every flaw they see in America and that they see nationalism as a flaw- you are not one of those I dont believe, but there a re many who do. I believe in pride in ones nation... it does not bother me if a Brit thinks the UK is best but what bothers me is an American who says we are not exceptional


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 24, 2012, 03:47:02 AM
I basically take the same position as Jehovah's Witnesses on issues like this. I won't ever say the pledge. It was said both times at the Senate district conventions I went to, I just remained seated. No one cared.

If I'm at an event with the national anthem I'll stand but won't salute the flag in any way either.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on January 24, 2012, 04:02:02 AM
I basically take the same position as Jehovah's Witnesses on issues like this. I won't ever say the pledge. It was said both times at the Senate district conventions I went to, I just remained seated. No one cared.

If I'm at an event with the national anthem I'll stand but won't salute the flag in any way either.

Many people stand in silence rather then sit... to me I dont care unless he person is disruptive during. It is your right to not participate in peace


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Franzl on January 26, 2012, 12:06:03 PM
I believe in pride in ones nation... it does not bother me if a Brit thinks the UK is best but what bothers me is an American who says we are not exceptional

So what is someone (like me) who holds two citizenships to believe in that regard? ;)


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on January 27, 2012, 12:00:35 AM
While it is true the US has played a big role in securing freedom in the Western world, you can't use that as a free pass to avoid any criticism today. The fact is there are many countries with equal or greater freedom.

And it's not as if America's foreign policy has only been around to spread freedom...let's not pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the US tends to be one of the good guys...but I do get annoyed by the arrogance expressed by many (like in your last post).

Franzl I am glad to see you type that the USis "one of the good guys" but what annoyes me is the opposite of what annoys you... people who seek to point out every flaw they see in America and that they see nationalism as a flaw- you are not one of those I dont believe, but there a re many who do. I believe in pride in ones nation... it does not bother me if a Brit thinks the UK is best but what bothers me is an American who says we are not exceptional

America certainly isn't exceptional.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on February 01, 2012, 07:40:46 PM
OK, let's not get into a fight about whether America is a free country or not. It's had some good times and some bad times. On the whole, it's a nice place; I think we can all agree on that.

Now: should the Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?

The words "under God", yes, but not the rest. And don't they sing the national anthem at school in Canada, or are my Canadian friends lying to me?


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: J. J. on February 01, 2012, 11:24:48 PM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

They are not mandated.  They need not recite the pledge.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Dr. Cynic on February 03, 2012, 06:28:46 AM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

They are not mandated.  They need not recite the pledge.

My school Ringgold used to mandate standing for it. I recall a few students getting in trouble for not standing. I would stand simply because it was a good time to stretch out of those tiny ass desks. I never recited it because there was never a need. I don't think I should have to pledge my allegiance to this country. Why do they need a pledge to prove that I wouldn't betray the United States? A few of my peers didn't want to stand and got in trouble for it.

That practice should be abolished.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: dead0man on February 03, 2012, 06:44:22 AM
I don't understand...you yourself just said you never said it....why does it need to be abolished again?


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Is Totally Not Feeblepizza. on February 03, 2012, 05:40:04 PM
It should be taken just once, at 18, with the "under God" part deleted. Having schoolchildren do it every morning is just ridiculous.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Redalgo on February 03, 2012, 06:09:54 PM
The pledge is excessively nationalist and theist. While students are afforded the opportunity to opt out, doing so in practice is easier said than done for a student because their peers are oftentimes monstrous little conformists who may decide to associate non-compliance with the ritual with one being different (e.g. un-American) and thus either inferior (all of the good kids are unwavering patriots!) or an out-group threat (a traitor!). Some folks have even proposed that bullying in school is a coercive form of self-enforcement that young people engage in to uphold cultural norms.

I do not know whether they are correct in saying so, incidentally, but I still worry that the pledge promotes unconditional loyalty to the state while tacitly discouraging the free exercise of ones rights. It is somewhat contradictory to the values the nation is alleged to stand for, and that's before one even brings up the point that the United States should symbolically represent what its living citizens - not folks who died a long time ago - want it to. This is not an important issue to me but I would be pleased if the pledge were to fall into disuse. In my opinion, it is enough (and not something I'd mandate) to run the national flag up a pole outdoors on the school grounds.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: Rooney on February 03, 2012, 11:48:55 PM
I teach BD students and I have to say that they gain absolutely nothing from saying the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. Well, they do gain the satisfaction of getting to give the middle finger to the flag and one student gets to consistently complain about the fact that it is being said every day. I do not think it should be outlawed but I do firmly believe that saying it daily in school has probably harmed patriotism far more then it has instilled it in the Youth of America.


Title: Re: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on February 06, 2012, 02:04:11 PM
Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

They are not mandated.  They need not recite the pledge.

Legally that might be the case, but we all know that it doesn't always work that way. Many schools will find different ways to "reinterpret" the law (such as saying that students aren't required if their parents don't agree with it so they can opt out with a letter from their parents stating why) or simply flat out ignoring the law and figuring no one will push it far enough with a lawsuit.

Also how many students are even aware of this? Teachers aren't required to let students know that it's not required.