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Title: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 19, 2012, 04:38:07 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yn-eejMcmuA
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Torie on February 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM The Reader's Digest version is that half of the euthanized folks in Holland are euthanized involuntarily (5% of all Dutch deaths are due to involuntarily euthanasia), so the elderly Dutch population "don't go to a Dutch hospital," but rather go to one outside the country, because they fear a Dutch hospital will deliberately kill them. It is all part of the culture of death sweeping the medical profession precipitated by abortion, which was the nose in the tent, and Obama wants the US to travel down the same road as The Netherlands.
Do any of our European friends know the facts on this one? This puppy needs a fact checker ASAP! Oh, and does Rick know what euthanasia actually means? What it does not mean is the withholding of hideously expensive treatment with limited prospects of efficacy for someone 95 years old as it were Rick. And how would the US ever be able to afford that anyway, if the government share of the GDP is to be slashed down from 23% to 18% as you advocate? Just asking Rick. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Oakvale on February 19, 2012, 04:48:52 PM Guys, I'm starting to think that Santorum may be some kind of religious extremist! *gasp*
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 04:54:16 PM The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: argentarius on February 19, 2012, 04:57:31 PM If there was any truth to this Ireland's leading party wouldn't have talked about modelling our health system on the dutch system in last year's general election.
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Torie on February 19, 2012, 04:57:42 PM The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html Per the study, the non consensual euthanasia cases (900 total) were apparently because the patients were demented and non compis mentis. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: geekknight on February 19, 2012, 05:01:26 PM What Santorum is claiming is not true, as that would mean there would be 6560 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year in the Netherlands (so 13120 cases in total), and there are 2000 to 3500 cases reported by doctors each year in total.
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Oakvale on February 19, 2012, 05:08:46 PM If there was any truth to this Ireland's leading party wouldn't have talked about modelling our health system on the dutch system in last year's general election. You'd be surprised if Enda wanted to involuntarily euthanize some of the population? :P Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: tpfkaw on February 19, 2012, 05:11:46 PM What Santorum is claiming is not true, as that would mean there would be 6560 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year in the Netherlands (so 13120 cases in total), and there are 2000 to 3500 cases reported by doctors each year in total. Uh, there are "just" 2000 to 3500 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year? ... Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 05:12:09 PM The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html Per the study, the non consensual euthanasia cases (900 total) were apparently because the patients were demented and non compis mentis. I didn't even read the study. I posted it more to just show that anything I could find that was in some way objective was really old. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Insula Dei on February 19, 2012, 05:12:42 PM There's some core of truth to this idiowy in that I believe it's indeed quite common for Dutch people living near the border to seek medical help abroad, as there aren't any lengthy waiting lists in Belgium or Germany(?) .
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 19, 2012, 05:14:03 PM Death panels 2.0? Can this nonsense please go way?
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Torie on February 19, 2012, 05:14:14 PM The only study I found on this was a REALLY old one: http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html Per the study, the non consensual euthanasia cases (900 total) were apparently because the patients were demented and non compis mentis. I didn't even read the study. I posted it more to just show that anything I could find that was in some way objective was really old. Well I read it. Lawyers are used to reading texts. Thanks for looking for something for me to read. :) Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Torie on February 19, 2012, 05:18:10 PM There's some core of truth to this idiowy in that I believe it's indeed quite common for Dutch people living near the border to seek medical help abroad, as there aren't any lengthy waiting lists in Belgium or Germany(?) . Ah yes. A distaste for delay as opposed to fear of being offed. Rick might have been better off chatting about rationing through wait times. Just a thought. But then, that is not the kind of thing that gets Rick animated, now does it? No, it's all about ACE - Abortion, Contraception and Euthanasia. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 19, 2012, 05:20:38 PM Fact check, from a Dutch person, courtesy of reddit:
Quote There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily False, no such bracelets exist, and every euthanasia case must start with a request from the patient. Neither the family nor the doctor can initiate the procedure, which has very clear rules: the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs) the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, in which case the doctor must be present the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents) More on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands). 10% of all deaths are from euthanasia False. In 2010, 136058 (http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL&PA=7052_95&D1=a&D2=a&D3=0&D4=31,38-l&HD=110413-1513&HDR=G2,G1,G3&STB=T) people died in the Netherlands, of which 3136 (http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2605623/aantal-euthanasiegevallen-weer-gestegen.html) through (reported) euthanasia. That is 2,3%. Of course not every case will be reported, but I assume most of them will, because when a doctor does not follow the guidelines that have been set in Dutch law for euthanasia (including reporting it to a review committee), it is still illegal, so that would be a huge risk to take for the doctor. Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital While it is true that a growing number of people go to Belgian and German hospitals for non-urgent treatments, this is because of the shortage in healthcare professionals in the Netherlands, because of the population ageing, resulting in waiting lists in Dutch hospitals. This is still a fairly small amount, around 2% of operations on Dutch patients is done in foreign hospitals. But it certainly has nothing to do with 'budget purposes'. The Netherlands is in the top20 for both life expectancy and on the WHO ranking of healthcare systems, well above the US, which I assume would be harder if we were just killing old people left and right. Basically everything Santorum said, with the exception of some Dutch people going abroad to get medical care (but not because they're afraid of euthanasia), is a total lie. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Oakvale on February 19, 2012, 05:21:55 PM I think my desire to see Mitt Romney humiliated has blinded me to how awful Santorum is. Oh well, it's not like he's going to be President.
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: ajb on February 19, 2012, 05:26:41 PM To add to Lief's point:
Life expectancy in "culture of death" Netherlands: 79.8 Life expectancy in "culture of life" USA: 78.3 Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherla Post by: Keystone Phil on February 19, 2012, 05:29:10 PM Santorum dislikes The Netherlands...hmmm...I wonder what Phil's take would be...
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 05:32:45 PM Fact check, from a Dutch person, courtesy of reddit: Quote There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily False, no such bracelets exist, and every euthanasia case must start with a request from the patient. Neither the family nor the doctor can initiate the procedure, which has very clear rules: the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs) the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, in which case the doctor must be present the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents) More on the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands). 10% of all deaths are from euthanasia False. In 2010, 136058 (http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL&PA=7052_95&D1=a&D2=a&D3=0&D4=31,38-l&HD=110413-1513&HDR=G2,G1,G3&STB=T) people died in the Netherlands, of which 3136 (http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2605623/aantal-euthanasiegevallen-weer-gestegen.html) through (reported) euthanasia. That is 2,3%. Of course not every case will be reported, but I assume most of them will, because when a doctor does not follow the guidelines that have been set in Dutch law for euthanasia (including reporting it to a review committee), it is still illegal, so that would be a huge risk to take for the doctor. Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital While it is true that a growing number of people go to Belgian and German hospitals for non-urgent treatments, this is because of the shortage in healthcare professionals in the Netherlands, because of the population ageing, resulting in waiting lists in Dutch hospitals. This is still a fairly small amount, around 2% of operations on Dutch patients is done in foreign hospitals. But it certainly has nothing to do with 'budget purposes'. The Netherlands is in the top20 for both life expectancy and on the WHO ranking of healthcare systems, well above the US, which I assume would be harder if we were just killing old people left and right. Basically everything Santorum said, with the exception of some Dutch people going abroad to get medical care (but not because they're afraid of euthanasia), is a total lie. Is there some sort of credibility to back up his claims, or is it just a random dude on reddit (not that I don't believe what he said... just curious). Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 19, 2012, 05:35:39 PM Well, it was posted by a Dutch person in a section of the site specifically focusing on the Netherlands and upvoted by a bunch of other Dutch people. Plus he sources his claims in the links provided.
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherla Post by: Keystone Phil on February 19, 2012, 05:36:30 PM Well, it was posted by a Dutch person This should tell you everything about the credibility, Inks. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherla Post by: Torie on February 19, 2012, 05:38:35 PM Well, it was posted by a Dutch person This should tell you everything about the credibility, Inks. Quote Plus he sources his claims in the links provided. Did you read the sources Phil, which sources are provided in the links of the text Link copied and pasted? You might do that before dismissing what some foreign guy from a country you dislike has posted. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Gustaf on February 19, 2012, 05:39:07 PM From Wikipedia:
"In 2010 there were 3136 cases reported of a physician assisting the death of a patient. Split out it were 2910 cases of "end of life on request", 182 cases of assisted suicide and in 44 cases it was a combination. The evaluation commissions decided that in 9 cases the procedures were not according to protocol and referred the cases to the Public Prosecution Service and the Health Care Inspectorate.[5] It was the fifth year in a row that the number of reported cases was rising. The reason for this rise is not clear.[6]" Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Likely Voter on February 19, 2012, 05:49:31 PM As someone who used to live in Europe, I am getting sick of the GOP portraying Europe as some kind of evil horrible place. Just last week Rick was attacking Obama for his close ties to France and the French president. And in the debates how many times have we heard about the evils of "European socialism".
Have any of these people ever been to Europe? Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 05:52:19 PM Well, it was posted by a Dutch person in a section of the site specifically focusing on the Netherlands and upvoted by a bunch of other Dutch people. Plus he sources his claims in the links provided. Ahh, ok. I didn't see the hyperlinks in your text (which makes me less than happy, since I usually have really good vision). Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: platypeanArchcow on February 19, 2012, 05:54:30 PM perhaps Santorum doesn't know how medicine works (or doesn't):
http://zocalopublicsquare.org/thepublicsquare/2011/11/30/how-doctors-die/read/nexus/ Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherla Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 05:56:30 PM Well, it was posted by a Dutch person This should tell you everything about the credibility, Inks. Is this going to be the campaign's response when people start pointing out that apparently there aren't "Do not euthanize" bracelets in the Netherlands? How's he going to handle this? I can't find a single credible source of a don't euthanize bracelet or card, let alone even a picture of one. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherla Post by: Keystone Phil on February 19, 2012, 05:57:43 PM Have any of these people ever been to Europe? Ironically, I'm posting from Europe right now. And I love Europe, just not its political leanings. ;) Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 06:26:01 PM This could turn into a major gaffe by Santorum if the other candidates attack him on it. Not only does it show some ignorance on a social issue, but it makes him look terrible from a foreign policy standpoint, if he's going to blatantly lie about what's happening in the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: ajb on February 19, 2012, 07:21:54 PM This could turn into a major gaffe by Santorum if the other candidates attack him on it. Not only does it show some ignorance on a social issue, but it makes him look terrible from a foreign policy standpoint, if he's going to blatantly lie about what's happening in the Netherlands. meh. I think "Mainline Protestant churches have been corrupted by Satan, are no longer Christian" has more legs. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Wisconsin+17 on February 19, 2012, 07:48:11 PM Quote Uh, there are "just" 2000 to 3500 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year? That's what the man said isn't it? Here's the funny part. We're expecting doctors to report on themselves.... Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2012, 07:51:15 PM This could turn into a major gaffe by Santorum if the other candidates attack him on it. Not only does it show some ignorance on a social issue, but it makes him look terrible from a foreign policy standpoint, if he's going to blatantly lie about what's happening in the Netherlands. meh. I think "Mainline Protestant churches have been corrupted by Satan, are no longer Christian" has more legs. Both do. Although this one's a lot more recent than the Satan speech. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: ajb on February 19, 2012, 07:55:43 PM Quote Uh, there are "just" 2000 to 3500 cases of involuntary euthanasia each year? That's what the man said isn't it? Here's the funny part. We're expecting doctors to report on themselves.... You did read Gustaf's post, didn't you, where it said that there are about 3000 cases of euthanasia a year in the Netherlands, not involuntary euthanasia, which is not legal there. Of those 3000-odd cases, nine were found to be not according to protocol. So the list of possible cases of euthanasia that did not meet the strict protocols in place was not 3500, but nine. And if Dutch doctors were killing off elderly patients left, right, and center, it would be odd that their life expectancy should be 18 months higher than that in the United States. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Wisconsin+17 on February 19, 2012, 08:00:17 PM Quote And if Dutch doctors were killing off elderly patients left, right, and center, it would be odd that their life expectancy should be 18 months higher than that in the United States. Here's a bonus question. Is that age cohort the same in the Netherlands as it is in the US? What are some intrinsic factors that would explain the differences? All else being equal - I would expect the Netherlands to have higher life expectancy. Why is anyone surprised that Catholic Santorum opposes euthanasia. Conception to natural death.. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: ajb on February 19, 2012, 08:17:04 PM Quote And if Dutch doctors were killing off elderly patients left, right, and center, it would be odd that their life expectancy should be 18 months higher than that in the United States. Here's a bonus question. Is that age cohort the same in the Netherlands as it is in the US? What are some intrinsic factors that would explain the differences? All else being equal - I would expect the Netherlands to have higher life expectancy. Why is anyone surprised that Catholic Santorum opposes euthanasia. Conception to natural death.. The average age in the Netherlands is 40.8, compared to 36.8 in the US. Age pyramids are here: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Age_distribution and here: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/nl-netherlands/Age_distribution. I'd be curious to hear what your conclusions are. In the meantime, keep in mind that the infant mortality rate in the Netherlands is 4.48 per 1000 live births; in the US, it's 6.81 -- slightly better than Chile (7.19), slightly worse than Lithuania (6.45). It would be really nice if the whole "culture of life" included doing something about this. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Torie on February 19, 2012, 08:35:28 PM Quote And if Dutch doctors were killing off elderly patients left, right, and center, it would be odd that their life expectancy should be 18 months higher than that in the United States. Here's a bonus question. Is that age cohort the same in the Netherlands as it is in the US? What are some intrinsic factors that would explain the differences? All else being equal - I would expect the Netherlands to have higher life expectancy. Why is anyone surprised that Catholic Santorum opposes euthanasia. Conception to natural death.. What is surprising is that Rick got almost all his facts wrong, and gilded the lily by making a basically false and misleading case that it ineluctably leads to involuntary euthanasia, and the Dutch elderly are running to foreign hospitals in fear of their lives. It was the involuntary bit that fueled Rick here. Otherwise, it would have been a big yawn. Rick wanted red meat, and stuck his foot in it trying to get it. Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: Joe Republic on February 19, 2012, 09:07:53 PM So euthanasia is one of the issues Rick Santorum has decided he wants to agree with the Catholic church on?
Title: Re: Santorum has some... interesting ideas about what's going on in the Netherlands Post by: © tweed on February 19, 2012, 10:03:07 PM This could turn into a major gaffe by Santorum if the other candidates attack him on it. no. it fits quite cleanly into the prevailing meta-narrative pedaled by the modern GOP, in which facts play only a tangential role. |