Talk Elections

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/14/us-usa-campaign-puertorico-idUSBRE82D16Z20120314 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/14/us-usa-campaign-puertorico-idUSBRE82D16Z20120314)

"Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum told Puerto Ricans on Wednesday they would have to make English their primary language if they want to pursue U.S. statehood, a statement at odds with the U.S. Constitution.

Santorum traveled to the U.S. territory to campaign ahead of the island's Republican primary election scheduled for Sunday, where he, Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich are vying for 20 delegates.

Puerto Ricans, who recognize both English and Spanish as their official languages, are scheduled to vote in November on a referendum to decide whether they want to pursue statehood or remain a self-governing U.S. commonwealth.

In an interview with El Vocero newspaper, Santorum said he supported Puerto Ricans' right to self-determination regarding the island's political status.

"We need to work together and determine what type of relationship we want to develop," he told the newspaper.

But Santorum said he did not support a state in which English was not the primary language.

"Like any other state, there has to be compliance with this and any other federal law," Santorum said. "And that is that English has to be the principal language. There are other states with more than one language such as Hawaii but to be a state of the United States, English has to be the principal language."

However, the U.S. Constitution does not designate an official language, nor is there a requirement that a territory adopt English as its primary language in order to become a state.

Congress would have to give approval if Puerto Rico is to become the 51st state. Although Congress has considered numerous proposals to make English the official U.S. language, none has ever passed.

However, some states have passed their own laws declaring English the official language, including heavily Hispanic Florida.

Puerto Rico has about 4 million people and its population can vote in partisan primaries but not presidential elections. Puerto Ricans on the mainland have the same voting rights as other U.S. citizens.

Santorum's statement may fall flat with Puerto Rican Republicans, who have always argued that issues of language and culture should be controlled by state governments and not the federal government.

It also could alienate the 4.2 million Puerto Ricans who live on the U.S. mainland, including nearly 1 million in presidential swing-state Florida.

Romney and Gingrich have both said Puerto Ricans must decide their future for themselves. Romney has said that if they choose to pursue statehood, he would help them achieve it.

Romney, who is scheduled to travel to Puerto Rico on Friday and stay through the weekend, won the endorsement of Governor Luis Fortuno, who is also the head of Puerto Rico's pro-statehood New Progressive Party.

Santorum was to meet with Fortuno on Wednesday before a town hall meeting with residents.

He said he and Fortuno are friends because they went to the same church in Washington when Fortuno served as Puerto Rico's non-voting representative in the U.S. Congress from 2004-2008.

Santorum also said that he does not support "at this time" allowing residents in territories like Puerto Rico to vote for president, although he said he was open to analyzing alternatives, such as allowing their votes to count in the popular vote but not in the Electoral College.

Gingrich will send his daughter, Kathy Gingrich Lubbers, to campaign on his behalf in Puerto Rico on Thursday and Friday. She is fluent in Spanish and was expected to hold a town-hall style meeting."

For once I agree with him. I think we should let Puerto Rico go independent, whether they like it or not.

What does this remind me of? ::)

I guess that rules out the possibility of an upset in PR. And surely a party that believes so strongly in keeping the federal government from micromanaging what the states do shouldn't care what languages get used in any particular state, right?

Maybe Santorum well come out against statehood for Louisiana as well.  :)

I'm actually in disagreement with him here.

There is nothing in the constitution requiring the official language of the United States being English. If he wants this to be de-jure, it needs to be brought forth in the United States.

That being said:

English is the de-facto language of the United States - anyone who wants to change this needs to go somewhere else. Everyone who wants to be an American citizen needs to show english proficiency.

It could have been worse....he could have said that they all need to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior.

You really want to support him ironically, you really try hard to like him; but this guy is such a reactionary moron. Jesus.

It's another sign of Santorum's troubling tendency to say what he actually thinks. Would it have killed him not to express an opinion on what the official language of Puerto Rico should be?

Does this include Puerto Ricans, who are American citizens?

Where should they move to?

actually I just realized that this is a brilliant jedi kind of strategy. Let's face it, Rick never stood a chance to win PR. And their rules make it hard for him to even get delegates. So he is going to PR to insult Puerto Ricans and hopes that boosts his vote back home with the base.

We should expect Rick to go to more safe Romney contests and insult the locals on his "In your face 2012" tour. Next up, Washington DC. where he will tell them they can become a state when they stop smoking so much crack. He will then head over to California to tell us to "stop putting so much gay stuff on TV"...Then it is off to New York where he will point out how much the Yankees suck.

Isn't English already the official language there along with Spanish?

Yes, that includes the people of Puerto Rico. Same for any and all American citizens.


If they want to speak spanish and not English? There are plenty of spanish speaking countries where Spanish is an official language.

I believe the Puerto Rican government uses both unofficially. Officially they are a US territory, which means de-facto requirement to use English.

Are you a troll? Puerto Rico is a country of several million people that the U.S. conquered from Spain and virtually all of its residents are native Spanish speakers.

Says the Canadian. Did you look that up in wikipedia?

You do know that Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly English speaking, right?

No it's not, dude...

Here's my wild guess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEPh_KlTyII)

Nah; I've heard Jonathan Sanchez try to speak English.

I'm seeing about 48 percent that speak English fluently as of 2005, and more that are familiar with English on top of that.

Yes, most speak Spanish as a first language, but English as a second is also very common in Puerto Rico. 

You might want to run that one by the Census Bureau. They report (American Community Survey 2010) that 4.1% of Puerto Rico speaks English as their first language, and that 80.8% speak it "less than very well."


http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?pid=ACS_10_1YR_DP02PR&prodType=table

And how is that different from my statement that Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly English speaking?

how about the fact that 96% speak Spanish at home?

Did I say that it was overwhelmingly native English speaking?

No, I simply said that it was overwhelmingly English speaking, which the survey shows to be the case.

And that 80.8% of the population speak English either not at all, or not very well?

Yessss !
First good news of the day for Mitt ;D !

And the fact that 100 percent (as according to your survey), do in fact speak some English?

Read it again.

It gives percentages for 'very well' and 'less than very well'.

The survey doesn't actually tell you how many Puerto Ricans do not speak English.

According to Puerto Rico's Law 1 of 1993, English and Spanish are the two official languages of Puerto Rico. A previous law, in 1991, had made Spanish the sole official language; Puerto Rico enacted both pieces of legislation itself, as provided for under the Treaty of Paris and relevant US legislation. Furthermore, the Constitution of 1952, enacted by the United States Congress, and ratified by President Truman, provides that all members of the Legislative Assembly of Puerto Rico must speak either English or Spanish. I'm not clear how or where you're finding this de facto requirement to use English, but on a de jure level it's clear that congress has repeatedly, since at least 1903, accepted the use of Spanish as an official language in Puerto Rico.

Actually, no. The table I cited gives no percentages for "very well," so I don't know where you're getting that from. If you are looking at a different page on the US Census website with that information, please provide the URL. Since, by your own admission, the ACS does not provide information on how many Puerto Ricans do not speak English, it cannot possibly demonstrate that 100% do in fact speak some English.

J.J. has competition.

Supremacy clause + Territorial clause.



So while Puerto Rico can pass bills, any conflict between them and the US constitution goes to the US constitution. Puerto Rico is required to use english in any communication between them and the US. They are permitted to use Spanish within Puerto Rico, but not for any communication outside of Puerto Rico.

They also can't make it Spanish only for the same reason. Anything that conflicts rules in favor of the US Constitution.

Your own table does not give figures for 'uses no English'. Ergo, it assumes that there is 100 percent English usage in Puerto Rico.


Nor can it demonstrate that fewer than 100 percent do, in fact speak English. See my point? You can't determine anything at all from how they worded that question in their survey.

It's completely useless.

Ben, stop digging. You will find better English spoken in most parts of W Europe.

Romney essentially has the same position so I don't see the issue.

Explain the conflict between the US constitution and Puerto Rico adopting Spanish as its sole official language. Remember that the English language has no official standing in the US Constitution.

Yeah, and? English is spoken quite well by non-native folks, especially the Dutch.

If your point is that they speak English as well as the Dutch, that's not really helping your case.

Privileges and Immunities. US Citizens in Puerto Rico have the right to use English, just as they do everywhere else. Puerto Rico can't tell Americans from other parts of the US that they cannot reside there, and those residents (as well as native residents in Puerto Rico), have the same rights to access to government services in English as they have elsewhere in the US.

This is why this was changed back to English + Spanish.

Why would Americans have the right to use English, as opposed to any other language?

Ben, my only point is that you made an incorrect assertion and are stubbornly refusing to accept that.  PR is a Spanish speaking island and to try to imply otherwise was wrong. The quality of English spoken varies widely but on the whole it is poor.  

Now doesnt Romney support English as an official language? I see no real effective difference.

1+

This was a really, really stupid thing to say. Since when does the federal government have the power to control what language the state government uses? And even if it did, why should it?

Louisiana's debates would be helpful here. I'll see if I can find them.  

What assertion did I make that was incorrect?


Did I say anything concerning the percentage of Spanish speakers in PR. You seem to assume that someone who speaks english cannot speak Spanish. All I am saying is that a vast majority of Puerto Ricans have the ability to understand and communicate to some degree of fluency in English as well as Spanish.

You've jumped all over me here with your assumptions without taking the time to realize that I am in fact correct here.

Now, if you want to continue this discussion, I'm happy to, but you've not correctly understood my assertion.


Actually, your 'survey' never employs the use of the word poor. I'm not sure how you conclude from your survey that their use of English is poor.  


I'm not sure what his opinion is, this is the first I've heard Santorum's argument.

As I said earlier, I disagree with making English de jure the language of the United States.

From what I can see the 1991 legislation in Puerto Rico only applied to native Puerto Rican residents, not to American Citizens from elsewhere. So it wouldn't have stripped the English language rights for the folks who speak English who weren't from Puerto Rico.

And it's moot anyways, because the policy is gone and has been the same as it's been for the last 50 years.

By your definition, the United States is overwhelmingly Spanish speaking, since at least 20% (including Puerto Rico) are native Spanish speakers and a good proportion of the rest took some Spanish in High School. Not to mention that, in many parts of the country, the proclivity of Hispanics means that many, if not most residents, can speak passable Spanish for everyday activity. I mean I took 4 years in HS and know how to say "Hola, me llamo Wiz in Wis, mi esposa y yo estamos en el estado de Massachusetts hoy"

Clearly, I'm a Spanish speaker in a Spanish speaking country.

What is my definition?


Where did I say 20 percent of the population being native speakers of the language made them 'overwhelmingly spanish speaking'?

I'd like to see where I see me use that number anywhere.

I'm actually discussing English as a second language in Puerto Rico as justification for my statement that Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly English speaking.

Now, if you can show me anywhere close to 80 percent of Americans speaking Spanish as a first or second language, I'd be happy to say the same for America in general.

Have at it.

I guess, the conclusion of this thread should be that Ben Karoubi

a. Does not know much about the US constitution
b. Is not fully English-speaking - which might explaing (a) 

Or we could make Rick Santorum learn Spanish if he wants to become President.

FWIW, English and Hawaiian are both official languages in Hawaii.

I think Santorum is falling apart and doing whatever it takes to sound conservative at this point. He's looking like he lacks depth too.

So Santorum's arguement is completely off the wall, and he could have prevented a gaffe like this if he had just googled the official language of Puerto Rico.

I'm not Canadian, I'm American and have always lived here - the avatar is misleading.

When it comes to the official language of the United States, English, French, Spanish, and Hawaiian are all 'official' to some extent, since they are all official languages of at least 1 U.S. state.

Basically, when we made Louisiana a state, didn't they mostly speak French there?

This guy knows nothing about pandering to voters.

TM - isn't that why you're a Romney supporter?


Yeah, which is why the law there is instructive. English is official in LA.

Tmth's right though. Santorum is not a very good politician. He's horrible at driving the media narrative. He's managed to get himself portrayed as being more extreme than he is. And I'm saying that as a somewhat sympathetic to Santorum undecided Republican.

Romney has a whole host of other problems but he is a much better politician at least as far as speaking.

Ah, well, actually, it isn't.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States#Official_language_status

There is no official language, but English and French are considered de facto "official languages."

So IOW there are official languages one of which is English. Thanks JJ.

Look up the term "de facto."  Both are recognized by the courts in LA, but neither was given "official" status.

Sure.

People can find ways to bring this back to Romney all they want, but the fact is, in order to win elections, you have to learn how to pander to voters. Obama probably doesn't mean half of the compliments he throws out, but he says them to win votes - it's not a bad thing, it's just politics. And Santorum doesn't know how to do it, with comments like this.

There you go folks. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Ah, that would be because I specified de jure in my post...

No, that be because you used word "official" in your post.

If I had specified de jure I would think I would have said de jure. This is fun.

I didn't mention that turn.  You mentioned "official."

How did you divine the de jure, de facto distinction?

Yes, but you have not, obviously.  And since you have raised the distinction, de facto refers to "in facto" as opposed to "in law," or in this case, by "official" designation.

Santorum screwed up again.

I'd vote for English to be our national language if it was on a ballot but there's no real point in making it a priority. I'm in favor of funding for immigrants who are poor in English though.

Well, it was bloody stupid thing to say 5 days before a primary in an area where a majority of the voters speaks Spanish (especially where there is a WTA possibility).

To emphasize how stupid this was, Santorum was being interviewed by a Spanish language newspaper...knowing his answers would appear translated in Spanish.

And the question he was asked translates roughly as "Would you endorse (support) a state where Spanish is spoken as the primary language?" (which should shut up those saying most Puerto Ricans speak English)


Reading what Santorum has to say translated into Spanish makes it all the more insulting

I think Santorum does it on purpose or is out of touch with the response of such voters. At least he won't have to worry about their votes if he does somehow become our nominee. He admits to going too far in speeches like when he said that Romney and Gingrich will lose to Obama but when he does admit such things it's always little things like that.

Lucha, lucha
Como lucha libre
Por la libre, viva Puerto Rico libre
Hay mucho tiburón en el Caribe
100 x 35 es el calibre

F.B.I. Asesinos

Que viva Puerto Rico libre
Que viva la unidad Latinoamericana
Hasta la victoria, siempre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMYJvwwlg64

While de jure there is no requirement that Puerto Rico speak English to obtain statehood, de facto there is.  The fact that Puerto Rico is not integrated into the mainland culture (of which English as the dominant language is a part) to anything even close to the degree that Hawaii was at statehood is one reason why there is no push from the Federal side for them to become a State.

Santorum cost his chances of winning PR by making that statement, especially before primary night.  Not a smart move on his part.

People are aware that the party that is republican overwhelmingly trashed the '91 law?

This isn't the democrat primary, people.

The good thing about Santorum staying in this long is he's gotten a chance to confirm all the unfair "myths" and "exaggerations" made about him over the years.

Yeah. Looks like people had him pegged perfectly after all.

the reaction of santorum is normal. One state must have 1 language.


If not, imagine you go to a county, for an adminisrative stuff, and the officer speak to you in bulgarian. Little problem, no ?


Porto Rico don't have  to speak english, so porto rico have to be independant, as philippines were


two of more languages in a state is the assurance to have separatist parties on the political scene.

Yet we have several states where languages coexist.

and the risk of a possible mexican irredentism (or something like that)

Preferably, the best decision is to cut ties from PR and give them independence.

I don't understand why this is a big deal, aside from the fact that it was foolish of him to say it if he wanted to win this primary (which he wasn't going to anyway). The idea that a group of people should integrate if they want to become full members of a given country is hardly radical, I'm sorry. It's not as if Puerto Rico is bilingual, that would be a different story. It isn't. It's largely uni-lingual, and that language isn't the one spoken by the vast majority of Americans.

I support PR statehood wholeheartedy, I think it would be beneficial for both the mainland and the island, culturally and economically. However, the idea that they should become a state without a major push towards bilingualism on the part of the citizenry there is just silly. I have yet to meet a non-elderly immigrant, illegal or legal, who hasn't made the effort to learn English. It's bizarre to think that Puerto Ricans wouldn't want to learn English if it better helped them integrate. The problem is at the moment the English programs in their schools are similar to the Spanish programs in American schools; woefully inadequate and with hardly anyone coming out fluent.

BTW, to those who think English is widespread in PR, I suggest you visit sometime. I spent a summer there a few years ago (I have an uncle that lives there), and I can assure you it isn't.

PR has a referendum on statehood scheduled for this year.  Because of the language issue, I think its likely that statehood will fail.

Hey, if they favor it, I favor it.  Same with statehood.

My anecdotal evidence suggests precisely the opposite. Are you gaging it by what they choose to do among themselves, or what they use when working with an English speaker?

50x as many Puerto Ricans support statehood over independence.

Most of them who speak any English speak very rudimentary English. Yes there are people there who are fluent in English, but they're a minority. The ones who are, or are near-fluent, are almost always people who have lived on the mainland or work in the service industry.

Santorum comments:


If he was wrong why aren't there people jumping up and down saying "Hey almost everyone here speaks English!"?

I think what we are doing is arguing ends against the middle. I disagree with the perception that only spanish is spoken in Puerto Rico and that Puerto Ricans as a majority do not substantially speak English to some degree.


Because of Spanish language preference? I see Santorum's point here about English vs Spanish preference. Assimilation is going to have to involve English preference, and I really don't see a way around that in America. They don't want independence, and a significant percentage want statehood.

Statehood's always involved English preference - even if there are substantial accommodations for other languages. This is not just an issue for Puerto Rico, but elsewhere as well. There's nothing wrong with people choosing to use Spanish, but they should be proficient in English and be able to use it well.

It's been no different for any group - everyone has to learn to use English well - not just the folks in Puerto Rico. Since far more of them want to be part of the US than to leave, I think there has to be a concerted effort to improve English usage there.

I'd support Puerto Rican's right to choose either independence or statehood, if they want either, and also their right to remain in the staus quo, if that's what they'd prefer. If Puerto Rico does pursue either independence or statehood, then of course there would have to be negotiations with Washington over the details. Official language policy would clearly be one of the issues up for discussion. PR could clearly ask to keep Spanish as a co-official language. Past experience does show that Washington has occasionally (not always) made demands about language usage in incoming states, and would presumably have the right to make such demands with Puerto Rico. There's no constitutional or legal obligation to insist on English only, though, since the English language has no official status at the federal level in the United States, so Washington would also have the right to let PR keep using Spanish -- obviously, lots of nations have more than one official language, and do just fine with it (not to mention that refusing to allow the use of Spanish in PR would obviously drive up separatist sentiment pretty rapidly).
If the US and PR disagreed on language policy, that might be an issue that prevented statehood from actually happening, even if the people of PR wanted it. And that would be fine, too -- obviously, the US doesn't have to accept PR as a state if it feels the conditions aren't right.