Talk Elections

General Politics => Individual Politics => Topic started by: politicus on March 21, 2012, 06:30:33 PM



Title: Greatest country in the world
Post by: politicus on March 21, 2012, 06:30:33 PM
(Americans only)

American politicians and Conservative pundits often refer to the US as "the greatest country in the world". Do you agree with this statement? If you agree, what does "the greatest country" mean to you? Most powerfull, best place to live in, highest level of civilization (science, technology, culture etc.) or something else.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on March 21, 2012, 06:32:16 PM
There's no way that the answer could be yes unless one is referring to power alone.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on March 21, 2012, 06:36:22 PM
I guess yes...


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: fezzyfestoon on March 21, 2012, 06:46:47 PM
I disagree with the question. And the focus put on this topic. Our preoccupation with it has led to so many of the reasons why America cannot be considered the best...if there was even a way to measure that.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on March 21, 2012, 06:47:52 PM
Yes I do- and here I go firing a spitball when I am staring into the working end of a howitzer

I do not believe the USA is perfect- we have made many, many, many mistakes. But we have made most of these mistakes honestly in the pursuit of noble goals- and yes I consider our national security and national interests a noble goal. What I believe sets the USA apart from the British Empire (of the past- not in the past 70 yars or so) and the Romans and others throughout history who have had the greatest amount of power in the world is that we have used our power for good as opposed increasing our own power...

I believe no other nation on Earth has ever given up more of its money, sweat, or blood for the freedom of complete strangers... people call us the world's policeman and I agree that we should scale down our involvement in some conflicts that do not affect us directly- but that label shows that we have used our status as a superpower to fight injustice in the world where we see it...we haven't always been right but our intentions have been pure.

Even before we were a supoerpower, the idea of our nation has been more pure then any other in history-

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

We chose to put those words on a monument to our freedom that greeted so many coming to us for that very reason... we chose those words over a glorification of ourselves or our leaders or rulers. Sure the founders were slaveowners and Lincoln nowadays would be considered a racist- but our country has always moved in the direction of equality and openness...



Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: I'm JewCon in name only. on March 21, 2012, 06:50:58 PM
Yessir


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on March 21, 2012, 06:52:15 PM
Yes, I'm sure the Chileans were very happy to see their freedom preserved thanks to the altruism of the United States.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on March 21, 2012, 06:59:30 PM
Yes, I'm sure the Chileans were very happy to see their freedom preserved thanks to the altruism of the United States.

It is amazing to me that people like you will ignore every bit of language I put into my post... "we have made many, many, many mistakes" or "we haven't always been right"

If you were more intent on having a legitimate discussion as opposed to being a smartass we would get somewhere...


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Frodo on March 21, 2012, 07:06:57 PM
Always has been and always will be the United States -the last, best hope of mankind.  Sounds like a cliche, but I believe every word of it. 


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Torie on March 21, 2012, 07:15:04 PM
It depends on the weights one gives varies factors, and therefore is highly personal and subjective.  I shy away from making such claims myself. It just smacks of hubris. It is better to walk a bit more humbly before your God - even if you are an atheist. :)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hash on March 21, 2012, 07:18:32 PM
I'm not a conservative (obviously) but there is no such thing as the "greatest country in the world" unless you're a rah rah rah nationalist.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 21, 2012, 07:33:18 PM
Not by any objective measure, no.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Boris on March 21, 2012, 07:35:25 PM
Denmark is better


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Redalgo on March 21, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
I do not consider the United States exceptional, yet the question being asked is so complex and values-sensitive that no completely objective conclusion can be reached. I feel every country is either great or has latent potential to become great depending on the metrics used and how they are weighted. Despite the many inequalities between countries, I make a sincere effort to respect, discover things to admire about, and try to take note of other things to criticize regarding them all.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Gustaf on March 21, 2012, 07:45:22 PM
I don't think it's the best country to live in right now, nor the one with the best system of government or policies. But overall in a historical context? Yes. And my definition of greatest is simply largest positive impact on the world.

For the record, I'd grant that cases could be made for other places as well but I think the US is a decent pick. 


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on March 21, 2012, 08:10:12 PM

FTFY


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: greenforest32 on March 21, 2012, 08:38:47 PM
Definitely not.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 21, 2012, 09:27:40 PM
I've always found these types of questions to be useless because of how different people with different ideologies interpret them but I'd say that there is a good case for America being the greatest country in the world. There's also a good case for India or China being the "greatest" country in the world.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on March 21, 2012, 09:52:30 PM
Yes I do- and here I go firing a spitball when I am staring into the working end of a howitzer

I do not believe the USA is perfect- we have made many, many, many mistakes. But we have made most of these mistakes honestly in the pursuit of noble goals- and yes I consider our national security and national interests a noble goal. What I believe sets the USA apart from the British Empire (of the past- not in the past 70 yars or so) and the Romans and others throughout history who have had the greatest amount of power in the world is that we have used our power for good as opposed increasing our own power...

I believe no other nation on Earth has ever given up more of its money, sweat, or blood for the freedom of complete strangers... people call us the world's policeman and I agree that we should scale down our involvement in some conflicts that do not affect us directly- but that label shows that we have used our status as a superpower to fight injustice in the world where we see it...we haven't always been right but our intentions have been pure.

Even before we were a supoerpower, the idea of our nation has been more pure then any other in history-

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

We chose to put those words on a monument to our freedom that greeted so many coming to us for that very reason... we chose those words over a glorification of ourselves or our leaders or rulers. Sure the founders were slaveowners and Lincoln nowadays would be considered a racist- but our country has always moved in the direction of equality and openness...



This.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: dead0man on March 21, 2012, 09:59:40 PM
No.  We've done a lot of things.  A lot of good things, a lot of great things...and we've done a lot of bad things and a lot of horrible things.  I don't think there is an answer to the "greatest country ever" question, but the odds would be against it being the US.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on March 21, 2012, 10:02:42 PM
Yes I do- and here I go firing a spitball when I am staring into the working end of a howitzer

I do not believe the USA is perfect- we have made many, many, many mistakes. But we have made most of these mistakes honestly in the pursuit of noble goals- and yes I consider our national security and national interests a noble goal. What I believe sets the USA apart from the British Empire (of the past- not in the past 70 yars or so) and the Romans and others throughout history who have had the greatest amount of power in the world is that we have used our power for good as opposed increasing our own power...

I believe no other nation on Earth has ever given up more of its money, sweat, or blood for the freedom of complete strangers... people call us the world's policeman and I agree that we should scale down our involvement in some conflicts that do not affect us directly- but that label shows that we have used our status as a superpower to fight injustice in the world where we see it...we haven't always been right but our intentions have been pure.

Even before we were a supoerpower, the idea of our nation has been more pure then any other in history-

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

We chose to put those words on a monument to our freedom that greeted so many coming to us for that very reason... we chose those words over a glorification of ourselves or our leaders or rulers. Sure the founders were slaveowners and Lincoln nowadays would be considered a racist- but our country has always moved in the direction of equality and openness...



This.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Goldwater on March 21, 2012, 10:13:03 PM
Yes I do- and here I go firing a spitball when I am staring into the working end of a howitzer

I do not believe the USA is perfect- we have made many, many, many mistakes. But we have made most of these mistakes honestly in the pursuit of noble goals- and yes I consider our national security and national interests a noble goal. What I believe sets the USA apart from the British Empire (of the past- not in the past 70 yars or so) and the Romans and others throughout history who have had the greatest amount of power in the world is that we have used our power for good as opposed increasing our own power...

I believe no other nation on Earth has ever given up more of its money, sweat, or blood for the freedom of complete strangers... people call us the world's policeman and I agree that we should scale down our involvement in some conflicts that do not affect us directly- but that label shows that we have used our status as a superpower to fight injustice in the world where we see it...we haven't always been right but our intentions have been pure.

Even before we were a supoerpower, the idea of our nation has been more pure then any other in history-

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

We chose to put those words on a monument to our freedom that greeted so many coming to us for that very reason... we chose those words over a glorification of ourselves or our leaders or rulers. Sure the founders were slaveowners and Lincoln nowadays would be considered a racist- but our country has always moved in the direction of equality and openness...



This.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on March 21, 2012, 10:25:42 PM
To those who think the US is the greatest country in the world, please indicate why your country is better than the following countries:

A) Canada
B) UK
C) France
D) Denmark
E) Norway
F) The Netherlands
G) Australia
H) New Zealand

Thank you.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on March 21, 2012, 10:29:50 PM
To those who think the US is the greatest country in the world, please indicate why your country is better than the following countries:

A) Canada
B) UK
C) France
D) Denmark
E) Norway
F) The Netherlands
G) Australia
H) New Zealand

Thank you.
More of a role in the past century to advance freedom...

I think all these countries are great countries- including your nation of Canada which I have great respect and admiration for and have visited many times


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: dead0man on March 21, 2012, 10:48:16 PM
To those who think the US is the greatest country in the world, please indicate why your country is better than the following countries:

A) Canada
B) UK
C) France
D) Denmark
E) Norway
F) The Netherlands
G) Australia
H) New Zealand

Thank you.
I'm NOT saying we are better than them, but here is two things...checked the Soviets (admittedly with the help of the above) and put a bunch of men on the moon, got them back again.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Joe Republic on March 21, 2012, 10:51:10 PM
To those who think the US is the greatest country in the world, please indicate why your country is better than the following countries:

A) Canada
B) UK
C) France
D) Denmark
E) Norway
F) The Netherlands
G) Australia
H) New Zealand

Thank you.

BECAUSE AMERICA IS RIGHT AND YOURE WRONG


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on March 21, 2012, 11:11:20 PM
To those who think the US is the greatest country in the world, please indicate why your country is better than the following countries:

A) Canada
B) UK
C) France
D) Denmark
E) Norway
F) The Netherlands
G) Australia
H) New Zealand

Thank you.
More of a role in the past century to advance freedom...

OK, that's all well and good (not to mention, debatable, but let's ignore that for now), but that's only a small aspect of greatness. And, in the case of the US, as been negated more often than not. Now, you're going to say "nobodies perfect", well, yeah, but if it's your sole basis for why your country is better than everyone else, you should come up with a better reason than something that is flawed.
I'm NOT saying we are better than them, but here is two things...checked the Soviets (admittedly with the help of the above) and put a bunch of men on the moon, got them back again.

Putting a man on the moon was a truly awesome feat, for sure. And perhaps that argument would have had better sway if this were 1969. But, it's 2012, and the US can't afford that anymore.

And, wasn't the Soviet Union going to crumble under its own weight anyways? I know Americans (and I guess many Canadians too) and especially Republicans like to think they had a hand in it, just because Reagan told Gobachev to tear down the Berlin wall. But like I said, that's ancient history.

I'm not saying there wasn't a time where the US may have had a legitimate shot at being considered the greatest country in the world. Perhaps the same is true, today. However, what bugs me are those that claim they know this for certain. It is quite arrogant and jingoistic, and appears to be backed up by Cold War nostalgia.





Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: TNF on March 21, 2012, 11:17:11 PM
American exceptionalism is bullsh**t. We are a nation like any other. We are good in some ways and bad in others.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on March 21, 2012, 11:24:08 PM
I'd say the answer is probably Canada which is basically the US with most of the bad things about it greatly toned down (not entirely eliminated of course as Stephen Harper's majority currently proves), and no particular bad things about it that stand out (like the xenophobia in a lot of European countries, censorship-happiness in Australia, nanny statism in Scandinavia, etc.)

New Zealand kind of fits that bill too but it's too geographically isolated for me. (OK from what I've heard the anti-Maori racism can be kind of bad, but not necessarily any worse than the treatment of minorities in the US.)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: RI on March 21, 2012, 11:26:06 PM
Individual countries may be better in one aspect or another than the US, but I can't think of any nation that consistently has the attributes necessary to dethrone the US. This doesn't give us any divine right or privilege or anything; I just think it gives us more responsibility and expectations, in a multitude of different ways, but we should still play by most of the same rules.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: dead0man on March 21, 2012, 11:27:41 PM
And, wasn't the Soviet Union going to crumble under its own weight anyways?
Probably, but it could have lasted longer if it had free reign to do what it wanted to lesser contries the world over for the length of it's existence.  Trying to stay competitive with the US led West is what hammered the nails in it's coffin....or at least that's how I learned it.  I always enjoy having my ignorance fought though.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: RI on March 21, 2012, 11:27:53 PM
I'd say the answer is probably Canada which is basically the US with most of the bad things about it greatly toned down (not entirely eliminated of course as Stephen Harper's majority currently proves), and no particular bad things about it that stand out (like the xenophobia in a lot of European countries, censorship-happiness in Australia, nanny statism in Scandinavia, etc.)

New Zealand kind of fits that bill too but it's too geographically isolated for me. (OK from what I've heard the anti-Maori racism can be kind of bad, but not necessarily any worse than the treatment of minorities in the US.)

Sorry, but Canada is much too minor a country in world history to be considered the greatest.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: dead0man on March 21, 2012, 11:30:07 PM
Indeed....Canada might not have a long list of bad/horrible things...but what have they done for the world community outside of giving us Alan Thike and Celine Dion?


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: RI on March 21, 2012, 11:31:49 PM
Indeed....Canada might not have a long list of bad/horrible things...but what have they done for the world community outside of giving us Alan Thike and Celine Dion?

Plus they gave us Nickelback and Justin Bieber. Sounds like a horrible country to me. ;)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on March 21, 2012, 11:34:27 PM
I'd say the answer is probably Canada which is basically the US with most of the bad things about it greatly toned down (not entirely eliminated of course as Stephen Harper's majority currently proves), and no particular bad things about it that stand out (like the xenophobia in a lot of European countries, censorship-happiness in Australia, nanny statism in Scandinavia, etc.)

New Zealand kind of fits that bill too but it's too geographically isolated for me. (OK from what I've heard the anti-Maori racism can be kind of bad, but not necessarily any worse than the treatment of minorities in the US.)

While I'm honoured you would say Canada, I think our time in the sun has past, much like our American neighbours. I would argue that Canada was the greatest country in the world back in the 1990s. At least, the UN thought we were.

I'd say the answer is probably Canada which is basically the US with most of the bad things about it greatly toned down (not entirely eliminated of course as Stephen Harper's majority currently proves), and no particular bad things about it that stand out (like the xenophobia in a lot of European countries, censorship-happiness in Australia, nanny statism in Scandinavia, etc.)

New Zealand kind of fits that bill too but it's too geographically isolated for me. (OK from what I've heard the anti-Maori racism can be kind of bad, but not necessarily any worse than the treatment of minorities in the US.)

Sorry, but Canada is much too minor a country in world history to be considered the greatest.

Where we lack in history, we gain in geography. Both are only small parts of what makes a country great, however.

Indeed....Canada might not have a long list of bad/horrible things...but what have they done for the world community outside of giving us Alan Thike and Celine Dion?

Plenty of things. But they don't teach that in American schools.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on March 21, 2012, 11:36:06 PM
I think we're running up against a 'best' and 'greatest' distinction here. America's the greatest, for the reasons that Clarence and realisticidealist articulated, but there are quite a few areas in which it's not necessarily the best.

Also, Canada gave us Anne Shirley, Leonard Cohen, and poutine.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: dead0man on March 21, 2012, 11:40:31 PM
Plenty of things. But they don't teach that in American schools.
Agreed.  So, huh, what are some of those things?  Fight my ignorance.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on March 21, 2012, 11:48:02 PM
Plenty of things. But they don't teach that in American schools.
Agreed.  So, huh, what are some of those things?  Fight my ignorance.

Well, here's a list of inventions, for starters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_inventions
Here's a background of our military history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_military_history
I'm especially proud of our often ignored, but significant contribution during WW2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II Our most notable WW2 achievement was liberating Holland. To this day, the Dutch love us, and send us tulips every year.

But I don't have to defend Canada, it isn't in my opinion the greatest country in the world. It is however, one of them.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on March 21, 2012, 11:49:16 PM
Indeed....Canada might not have a long list of bad/horrible things...but what have they done for the world community outside of giving us Alan Thike and Celine Dion?

OK but can you seriously make the argument that most of the US is a better place to live than most of Canada? The only way I would see someone do this is rant about "OMG SOCIALIST HEALTHCARE" but with what the teabaggers are saying even that would be a moot point now (or will be soon.)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: dead0man on March 22, 2012, 12:02:15 AM
Plenty of things. But they don't teach that in American schools.
Agreed.  So, huh, what are some of those things?  Fight my ignorance.

Well, here's a list of inventions, for starters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_inventions
Here's a background of our military history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_military_history
I'm especially proud of our often ignored, but significant contribution during WW2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II Our most notable WW2 achievement was liberating Holland. To this day, the Dutch love us, and send us tulips every year.
Sadly, for whatever stupid reason, I can't get to wikipedia tonight from work.  (the horrors!)  But I am aware that Canada did at least it's fair share during WWII.  Certainly more than Ireland or Brazil to name two.
Indeed....Canada might not have a long list of bad/horrible things...but what have they done for the world community outside of giving us Alan Thike and Celine Dion?

OK but can you seriously make the argument that most of the US is a better place to live than most of Canada? The only way I would see someone do this is rant about "OMG SOCIALIST HEALTHCARE" but with what the teabaggers are saying even that would be a moot point now (or will be soon.)
Well, one could make the argument that there are MORE "better places to live" in the US than Canada.  Sure Toronto or Vancouver are as good or better than any city the US can offer, but is Alberta really better than, say, Madison or Omaha?

(and we can argue about specific cities all day, lets not, you understand my point)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on March 22, 2012, 12:36:39 AM
Alberta is a bad example, dead0man. The $$$'s good there. Although, I'm sure Madison, WI is a fine place to live. Not sure about Omaha, though.

Canadian cities regularly outrank American cities, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_most_livable_cities (I know you can't access Wikipedia, but that first chart shows Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver in the top 10 in the world). No US city makes the top 10 in any chart.

Interestingly, Maclean's magazine ranks neither of those cities as the best city to live in Canada, which apparently is my city, Ottawa http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/03/20/government-jobs-help-ottawa-earn-best-place-to-live-ranking/ (although, Hashemite have something to say about that)

Here's another list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_Living_Survey

4) Vancouver
14) Ottawa
16) Toronto
21) Montreal
28) Calgary
31) Honolulu (top US city)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on March 22, 2012, 12:47:52 AM
Canada also doesn't have as much as that awful sprawly exurbia (not saying it's nonexistant mind you, but there's nothing like metro Atlanta or SoCal in Canada.)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Boris on March 22, 2012, 01:32:18 AM
I've never understood why Calgary scores so high on those lists. It seems like a boring as sh**t place to live, with most of its residents experiencing a serene yet culturally vapid lifestyle no different than millions of bland American (and Canadian) suburbanites. I'd easily take Chicago, NYC, London, Copenhagen, Vienna, Turin, etc., over anywhere in the perpetual snoozefest that is Alberta.

One area where the US/Canada own the rest of the world is movie release dates. There was like a two month gap between the North American release of Episode I and its release date in most European countries. Of course paying more than $5 to watch movies is a little bit 1990s for me, but certain releases you just have to catch the midnight showing.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on March 22, 2012, 02:12:22 AM
I suspect Calgary ranks highly because of the oil boom is causing an economic bubble that artificially inflates metrics used to calculate things in "quality of life". Though I'll admit being able to get $12/hour upon hiring to a job at McDonald's is nothing to complain about (assuming that's actually the case in Calgary, just basing that on hearsay.)


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on March 22, 2012, 02:31:32 AM
Let's be honest; no place where the average daily low temperature is below freezing can possibly be considered "livable" insofar as humans aren't designed to live in those places.

Canada also doesn't have as much as that awful sprawly exurbia (not saying it's nonexistant mind you, but there's nothing like metro Atlanta or SoCal in Canada.)

Obviously it's not the size of the ones you mentioned, but the Fraser Valley isn't small.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on March 22, 2012, 04:54:56 AM
One of the greatest ? Certainly. The most influential in the international scene ? Of course. But it has several major flaws that make it impossible to call it the greatest.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on March 22, 2012, 05:27:08 AM
No, most international indexes and rankings agree that Norway is currently the greatest country in the world.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Hash on March 22, 2012, 07:29:02 AM
Interestingly, Maclean's magazine ranks neither of those cities as the best city to live in Canada, which apparently is my city, Ottawa http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/03/20/government-jobs-help-ottawa-earn-best-place-to-live-ranking/ (although, Hashemite have something to say about that)

Ottawa is a nice city, but at the same time it's generally pretty boring of a place.

Once again, the correct answer is that there is no such thing as "the greatest country in the world".


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: RIP Robert H Bork on March 22, 2012, 12:47:42 PM
Too many people here are confusing "best" and "greatest".


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: courts on March 22, 2012, 12:53:46 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: fezzyfestoon on March 22, 2012, 01:06:41 PM
Too many people here are confusing "best" and "greatest".

best: That which is the most excellent, outstanding, or desirable.
greatest: Of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

That does confuse me. Differentiate them, please.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on March 22, 2012, 03:12:58 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Liechtenstein's by far the worst country in Western Europe.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Platypus on March 22, 2012, 03:28:46 PM
Best to live in, obviously not. Most powerful, obviously. Largest, not quite; most populous, nope.

It's a top level country, but I'd be reluctant to say it was the greatest when it only meets one of the four (of many) criterias I picked off the top of my head.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on March 22, 2012, 03:36:23 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Pre-Downturn Ireland was a ridiculous place. It has much more serious problems now of course, but I really hope that it never was the best country in the world or close. Liechtenstein and the Asian Tigers? LOL no.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on March 22, 2012, 03:41:50 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Liechtenstein's by far the worst country in Western Europe.

Yeah, definitely.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: ZuWo on March 22, 2012, 03:49:49 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Liechtenstein's by far the worst country in Western Europe.

Your definition of "worst" is apparently very special.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on March 22, 2012, 03:55:59 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Pre-downturn Ireland was, as the left in Ireland has started pointing out, voluntarily sacrificing its sociocultural framework by inches on the altar of profit, which is why the downturn happened. Then if you go further back you find that that sociocultural framework was itself Inksed-up in many ways. I love Ireland but it's not a country that seems to really admit of having 'golden ages'. Unless you go back to Brian Boru.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on March 22, 2012, 04:02:13 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Pre-downturn Ireland was, as the left in Ireland has started pointing out, voluntarily sacrificing its sociocultural framework by inches on the altar of profit, which is why the downturn happened. Then if you go further back you find that that sociocultural framework was itself Inksed-up in many ways. I love Ireland but it's not a country that seems to really admit of having 'golden ages'. Unless you go back to Brian Boru.

The left (whoever they are) have hardly "started" to point that out. And by the way, despite the downturn, it is still doing that.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: opebo on March 22, 2012, 04:06:45 PM
It is a monstrosity.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on March 22, 2012, 09:21:41 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Liechtenstein's by far the worst country in Western Europe.

Your definition of "worst" is apparently very special.

It's hardly unusual. I suspect that a sizable portion of the Forum would agree.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on March 22, 2012, 10:07:22 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Pre-downturn Ireland was, as the left in Ireland has started pointing out, voluntarily sacrificing its sociocultural framework by inches on the altar of profit, which is why the downturn happened. Then if you go further back you find that that sociocultural framework was itself Inksed-up in many ways. I love Ireland but it's not a country that seems to really admit of having 'golden ages'. Unless you go back to Brian Boru.

The left (whoever they are) have hardly "started" to point that out. And by the way, despite the downturn, it is still doing that.

Do you mean the left (again, such as it is) has been pointing it out for longer than I've been aware of it or that it hasn't actually started to be pointed out in any meaningful way? I'm going mostly by the new President's statements on the subject here, which I hadn't been hearing much of before him in years of following Irish politics with greater or lesser (admittedly often lesser) degrees of involvement.

I'm completely unsurprised that it's still going on. My point was that pre-downturn Ireland wasn't somehow all roses, because there is a reason why it turned into, well, post-downturn Ireland.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: ZuWo on March 23, 2012, 01:55:16 AM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Liechtenstein's by far the worst country in Western Europe.

Your definition of "worst" is apparently very special.

It's hardly unusual. I suspect that a sizable portion of the Forum would agree.

It ultimately comes down to the criteria you apply when labelling a country "best" or "worst", but in this case it takes a lot to come up with the bold claim Liechtstein is generally worse than any of its neighbour states or any Western European countries in general.

Indeed, Liechtenstein is an anachronism when it comes to the form of government, and I think it's negative how much power the Prince of Liechtenstein has. Yet, the country is in a state of change; a few days ago citizens launched a popular initiave to abolish the right of veto of their Prince - a step in the right direction. Liechtenstein has also been decried as a tax haven, which was justified and hypocritical at the same time because this criticism came from governments that tolerate the very same tax policies elsewhere. Yes, these are two of the problems Liechtenstein faces, but which country is perfect? Does that make Liechtenstein the "worst" country in Western Europe?

In fact, there are so many reasons to label Liechtenstein the "best" country in Europe. The standard of living in the country is high, unemployment figures are low, and so is the crime rate. There are no tensions in the country, no issues with the treatment of minorities, the health care system is first class etc. Unlike so many Western European countries which you apparently think are "better" Liechtenstein has not been directly involved in recent wars.

So, I think labelling Liechtenstein the "worst" country in Western Europe is a (leftist) knee-jerk remark which hinges on very few isolated criteria while a large number of positive facts are ignored.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on March 23, 2012, 02:19:45 AM
If some random lily-white rural county in the US or comparable place in another European country somehow got independence and raised hordes of money as a banking and tax haven for several decades despite having only about 35k people, it too could easily put an end to unemployment and have a first class health care system. It's not a sustainable model for any country of a realistic size. I suppose it's somewhat hypocritical for countries like the UK and France to condemn Liechtenstein when the Cayman Islands and all the French Pacific islands exist as they do, but that's not really the point.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: ZuWo on March 23, 2012, 04:18:35 AM
If some random lily-white rural county in the US or comparable place in another European country somehow got independence and raised hordes of money as a banking and tax haven for several decades despite having only about 35k people, it too could easily put an end to unemployment and have a first class health care system. It's not a sustainable model for any country of a realistic size. I suppose it's somewhat hypocritical for countries like the UK and France to condemn Liechtenstein when the Cayman Islands and all the French Pacific islands exist as they do, but that's not really the point.

First of all, the economy of Liechtenstein does not solely depend on banking. The industrial sector, for example, is a very important pillar of the country's economy as well. Secondly, by far not all of the money the banks of Liechtenstein has "hoarded" can be attribited to tax fraud or other illegal activities. Thirdly, Liechtenstein, by virtue of being a tiny country with few natural resources, can hardly pursue an economic model that would be suitable for big and powerful countries. The economy of a country of Liechtenstein's size is compelled to find certain niches in order to be prosperous. Fourth, in the recent years the government of Liechtenstein has undertaken numerous measures to fight money laundering as well as tax fraud and is on track to do away with immoral practices of its financial sector.  


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on March 23, 2012, 10:07:18 AM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Pre-downturn Ireland was, as the left in Ireland has started pointing out, voluntarily sacrificing its sociocultural framework by inches on the altar of profit, which is why the downturn happened. Then if you go further back you find that that sociocultural framework was itself Inksed-up in many ways. I love Ireland but it's not a country that seems to really admit of having 'golden ages'. Unless you go back to Brian Boru.

The left (whoever they are) have hardly "started" to point that out. And by the way, despite the downturn, it is still doing that.

Do you mean the left (again, such as it is) has been pointing it out for longer than I've been aware of it or that it hasn't actually started to be pointed out in any meaningful way? I'm going mostly by the new President's statements on the subject here, which I hadn't been hearing much of before him in years of following Irish politics with greater or lesser (admittedly often lesser) degrees of involvement.

I'm completely unsurprised that it's still going on. My point was that pre-downturn Ireland wasn't somehow all roses, because there is a reason why it turned into, well, post-downturn Ireland.

The first one. Criticism of the Property-Finance-PolitcalParties-Vulgarity axis did not begin in 2007. At least the vulgarity has somewhat gone.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: freefair on March 23, 2012, 11:19:13 AM
Historically yes, at the moment is still one of many great free democratic nations in which to live.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on March 23, 2012, 02:38:33 PM
I don't know why American right-wingers continue to reflexively love a country that has rampant abortion (that alone makes me despise the modern US) and spends an ungodly amount on hand outs and "humanitarian intervention" and all that other garbage. I have more respect for pre-downturn Ireland or Liechtenstein or one of the "asian tigers" or something like that.

Pre-downturn Ireland was, as the left in Ireland has started pointing out, voluntarily sacrificing its sociocultural framework by inches on the altar of profit, which is why the downturn happened. Then if you go further back you find that that sociocultural framework was itself Inksed-up in many ways. I love Ireland but it's not a country that seems to really admit of having 'golden ages'. Unless you go back to Brian Boru.

The left (whoever they are) have hardly "started" to point that out. And by the way, despite the downturn, it is still doing that.

Do you mean the left (again, such as it is) has been pointing it out for longer than I've been aware of it or that it hasn't actually started to be pointed out in any meaningful way? I'm going mostly by the new President's statements on the subject here, which I hadn't been hearing much of before him in years of following Irish politics with greater or lesser (admittedly often lesser) degrees of involvement.

I'm completely unsurprised that it's still going on. My point was that pre-downturn Ireland wasn't somehow all roses, because there is a reason why it turned into, well, post-downturn Ireland.

The first one. Criticism of the Property-Finance-PolitcalParties-Vulgarity axis did not begin in 2007. At least the vulgarity has somewhat gone.

I remember being astonished by just how lowbrow Sean Gallagher came across, and especially that it at times seemed to be intentional. It reminded me vaguely of George W. Bush but in some ways seemed even more pronounced, at least from my side of the Atlantic, because the man was literally a game show host. Though he, of course, lost the final round in a landslide (or what seemed like a landslide, there have been enough uncontested Irish presidential elections that I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a landslide in elections to the office) to a former sociology professor who writes poetry.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on March 23, 2012, 05:28:49 PM
The thing about Gallagher was that he was the embodiment of the cult of the entrepreneur (which became very pronounced during the late Keltic Tigah period) - basically his whole campaign message was "I'm a successful entrepreneur, therefore vote for me" with the assumption behind it was that being a "successful entrepreneur" was the kind of positive value that represented all that was good about the Tigah and what would eventually boost us back to prosperity. The message had a lot of appeal with certain segments of the electorate (though certainly not with others).

Of course, near the end and after the campaign it was revealed that most of Gallagher's business 'success' was due in part to his political connections and in other part due to financial smoke and mirrors. So exactly like every other self-proclaimed "successful entrepreneur" during the era of stupidity and vulgarity known as the Keltic Tigah.


Title: Re: Greatest country in the world
Post by: politicus on March 23, 2012, 06:37:26 PM
Many posts on this thread are straying from the topic, so I am closing it now. I was curious about what that statement meant to Americans. To a European it is somewhat "over the top" even if it is understandable in many ways.
We didn't get around to the civilization/technology/culture part of "greatest". But that is definitely part of having the greatest impact on the world.