Talk Elections

Election Archive => 2012 U.S. Presidential General Election Polls => Topic started by: Rowan on April 10, 2012, 12:26:57 PM



Title: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Rowan on April 10, 2012, 12:26:57 PM
Colorado President(Rasmussen)

Obama: 53%
Romney: 40%

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_CO_041012.pdf


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Miles on April 10, 2012, 12:30:41 PM
Wow.

At this point in 2008, Obama was only up 3 there.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Tender Branson on April 10, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Hmm, Colorado Indies seem to HATE the GOP.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Oakvale on April 10, 2012, 12:51:36 PM
Obama's up 72-17 among voters under 30. I think we know what way Colorado's going to trend in the future. :P


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Tender Branson on April 10, 2012, 12:59:41 PM
Obama's up 72-17 among voters under 30. I think we know what way Colorado's going to trend in the future. :P

CO is full of young hipster skiing/snowboarding marihuana-smoking, gay-loving people with I-Phones, college education and in professional occupations. Mixed with the Hispanics, Blacks and Asians it's the poster child of an Obama state. And if Bennet won it in 2010, I don't see why Obama shouldn't win it in November. It's probably still going to narrow a bit, but if had had to bet I would bet a good amount on Obama.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: 5280 on April 10, 2012, 01:02:23 PM
Obama's up 72-17 among voters under 30. I think we know what way Colorado's going to trend in the future. :P

CO is full of young hipster skiing/snowboarding marihuana-smoking, gay-loving people with I-Phones, college education and in professional occupations. Mixed with the Hispanics, Blacks and Asians it's the poster child of an Obama state. And if Bennet won it in 2010, I don't see why Obama shouldn't win it in November. It's probably still going to narrow a bit, but if had had to bet I would bet a good amount on Obama.
It's already turned into a mini California, runned down expensive place to live, full of undocumented people (illegals).  


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on April 10, 2012, 01:32:33 PM
Database entry: https://uselectionatlas.org/POLLS/PRESIDENT/2012/polls.php?action=indpoll&id=820120407108


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: greenforest32 on April 10, 2012, 01:34:49 PM
Quote
Obama/Gingrich
Women - 61% Obama, 30% Gingrich
Men - 48% Obama, 44% Gingrich

Obama/Paul
Women - 56% Obama, 33% Paul
Men - 38% Obama, 52% Paul

Obama/Romney
Women - 58% Obama, 34% Romney
Men - 47% Obama, 47% Romney

Obama/Santorum
Women - 58% Obama, 33% Santorum
Men - 51% Obama, 43% Santorum

Interesting how Paul does the best of the four Republicans


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Napoleon on April 10, 2012, 01:44:08 PM
Interesting partisan numbers.

Q11 Would you describe yourself as very liberal,
somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat
conservative, or very conservative?
Very liberal ...................................................... 13%
Somewhat liberal ............................................ 22%
Moderate......................................................... 28%
Somewhat conservative.................................. 23%
Very conservative ........................................... 13%

Q13 If you are a Democrat, press 1. If a Republican,
press 2. If you are an independent or identify
with another party, press 3.
Democrat ........................................................ 36%
Republican...................................................... 35%
Independent/Other.......................................... 30%


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 10, 2012, 01:57:21 PM
I think the state GOP in CO sucks or is really weak right now.  I don't know of any strong figures involved in that state and I don't think the guys running for office there have been anything special.  So, I've been thinking that Dems may win state races there, but national races could be different because a strong national candidate transcends a weak state party.   


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Brittain33 on April 10, 2012, 02:00:06 PM
If Romney's getting trounced in NV, CO, and NM, does that point to him seeking a Latino running mate to help overcome some of his deficit, or does it mean he writes them off and sticks to the Ohio/Virginia route to victory?


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 10, 2012, 02:06:31 PM
well the general started like 15 minutes ago so I think he can now, for the first time, focus on beating Obama in those states.  polls will probably tighten as time goes by.  check back right before he names a VP.   


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: 5280 on April 10, 2012, 02:06:49 PM
I think the state GOP in CO sucks or is really weak right now.  I don't know of any strong figures involved in that state and I don't think the guys running for office there have been anything special.  So, I've been thinking that Dems may win state races there, but national races could be different because a strong national candidate transcends a weak state party.  
It's just the state GOP has been really weak starting 2004, and they haven't done much to change that trend around for a while.  Not sure, but they need to get their act together. If they want to keep on losing elections to the DEM, then it's shows them they don't care.

Romney may not write off CO and NV yet, but he can still win without these states.  He would have to focus more on OH, VA and FL to win.  CO is becoming a joke state to be honest for the GOP.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Tender Branson on April 10, 2012, 02:09:54 PM
I think the state GOP in CO sucks or is really weak right now.  I don't know of any strong figures involved in that state and I don't think the guys running for office there have been anything special.  So, I've been thinking that Dems may win state races there, but national races could be different because a strong national candidate transcends a weak state party.  
It's just the state GOP has been really weak starting 2004, and they haven't done much to change that trend around for a while.  Not sure, but they need to get their act together. If they want to keep on losing elections to the DEM, then it's shows them they don't care.

Romney may not write off CO and NV yet, but he can still win without these states.  He would have to focus more on OH, VA and FL to win.  CO is becoming a joke state to be honest for the GOP.

Obama could lose OH, VA and FL and would still win with 272 votes if he wins IA and NH too.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: You kip if you want to... on April 10, 2012, 02:25:33 PM
Considering how (relatively) well the Dems did here in 2010, this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: marvelrobbins on April 10, 2012, 02:54:22 PM
Colorado Is starting to turn Into a slight Blue state after years as Red state.Clinton only won In
1992 here because Perot got 29 percent of the vote.It slowly started turning back In 2004.Kerry lost by 8 compared to Gore losing by 15.And democrats started doing well In state and congressional races In 2004.Back In 2010 Democrats keep the Governor's office and Bennet was elected to full term In Senate.Colorado has a decent population of Hispanics.The ones Romney and Republicans have gone out of their way to ailenate.

If Obama wins the Kerry States plus Nevada,New Mexico and Colorado he wins the election.
The problem for Romney Is apart from Indina he Isn't ahead In any states Obama won.PPP
even has had Missouri,and Arizona tied.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: pbrower2a on April 10, 2012, 03:11:18 PM
Obama's up 72-17 among voters under 30. I think we know what way Colorado's going to trend in the future. :P

The Massachusetts of the West.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: NVGonzalez on April 10, 2012, 03:12:29 PM
I think latinos are also an influence here. They are the reason why Romney won't win NV nor NM and why AZ is in play.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: marvelrobbins on April 10, 2012, 03:15:29 PM
I think latinos are also an influence here. They are the reason why Romney won't win NV nor NM and why AZ is in play.
I agree with you.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on April 10, 2012, 03:16:14 PM
The final margin will probably be smaller (this point in primary season always looks better for incumbents), but it shows that the GOP needs to work on appealing to people other than wealthy white men. They should start by dropping the evangelicals and going after closing the gender gap.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Wisconsin+17 on April 10, 2012, 03:21:05 PM
Quote
If Romney's getting trounced in NV, CO, and NM, does that point to him seeking a Latino running mate to help overcome some of his deficit, or does it mean he writes them off and sticks to the Ohio/Virginia route to victory?

It means that a third party run is inevitable this year. 


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Sbane on April 10, 2012, 04:07:41 PM
Quote
Obama/Gingrich
Women - 61% Obama, 30% Gingrich
Men - 48% Obama, 44% Gingrich

Obama/Paul
Women - 56% Obama, 33% Paul
Men - 38% Obama, 52% Paul

Obama/Romney
Women - 58% Obama, 34% Romney
Men - 47% Obama, 47% Romney

Obama/Santorum
Women - 58% Obama, 33% Santorum
Men - 51% Obama, 43% Santorum

Interesting how Paul does the best of the four Republicans

I think Republicans are really underestimating how likely Paul fans are to just sitting out the election or even voting for Obama. And there is a lot of soft Paul support out there, that could theoretically vote Republican but won't vote for this crop, including Romney.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Fuzzybigfoot on April 10, 2012, 06:01:56 PM
Did anyone notice that Obama's numbers among latinos are actually kind of poor?


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: backtored on April 10, 2012, 06:46:55 PM
This thread is a riot.

Virtually everybody agrees that Colorado will be very tight.  I don't have time to correct the multitude of erroneous statements mentioned here, but let me take a moment to correct just a few of them.

1.) No, Colorado is not "full of pot-smoking hipsters, ski bums, gays, etc."  It sounds like somebody's forgotten that Boulder comprises approximately 5% of the total state population.  Shocking though it may be, South Park isn't actually a good look at what Colorado is like.  And, frankly, as a CU-Boulder alum, even Boulder isn't quite like that.  Colorado is generally a right-leaning state.

2.) The Colorado GOP is actually is pretty good shape here.  We'll likely maintain our 4-3 congressional split, and might even pick up CD-7.  We'll also probably keep the state house, and possibly pick up the state Senate.  And we'll do all of that even with an Obama win here.  If Romney wins, we'll likely pick up CD-7 and both chambers of the legislature.  If Obama wins, the status quo will hold in terms of statewide politics.  That's not wishful thinking, but just basic numbers.  I'm active in local GOP politics, in Jefferson County, specifically, and the feeling here is very, very optimistic.  Keep in mind, we actually made legislative gains in 2008, despite the huge Democratic wave.  The GOP is in better financial shape here than the Democrats, and the GOP has opened up a significant active voter registration lead (see below).  It's hard to get upset about one early Democratic poll when everything else is going so well.

3.) In terms of the poll itself, did anybody actually dig into it?  Obama is getting only 58% of the Latino vote.  The Latino vote here has actually been trending right for a while.  Kerry did better than Obama among Latinos in Colorado, and the trend evidently continues. 

Second, active voter registration is R: 37 D: 32 and U: 30.  And the GOP has been out-registering Democrats by a sizable 6,000 vote margin since only January.  PPP has been doing their thing with swing states for a few months, and it's so old.  When they actually screen for likely voters, and get the actual voter numbers right, you'd find a very close race in a state that has been trending GOP for a couple of years now.

4.) 2010 was actually a good GOP year in Colorado.  We took back the state house, picked up a state senate seat, won 3 of 5 statewide races, picked up two Congressional seats to get a majority GOP delegation, and in 2011 the GOP helped knock down a tax hike for education by a 2:1 margin.  The Senate race was blown, the gubernatorial race was lost when Scott McInnis' campaign imploded.  Other than that, it was a good year here.

5.) The Massachusetts of the west?  Yeah, sure.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: backtored on April 10, 2012, 06:48:30 PM
Did anyone notice that Obama's numbers among latinos are actually kind of poor?

If the Obama campaign picks up 58% of the Latino vote, it loses the election in Colorado.  As far as I'm concerned, those are the only real numbers that matter here.  I don't buy the numbers among independents, and unless Obama completely dominates unaffiliateds and gets a 2008-esque turnout among Democrats, those Latino numbers will doom his chances here, and perhaps elsewhere.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 10, 2012, 07:08:02 PM
Did anyone notice that Obama's numbers among latinos are actually kind of poor?

If the Obama campaign picks up 58% of the Latino vote, it loses the election in Colorado.  As far as I'm concerned, those are the only real numbers that matter here.  I don't buy the numbers among independents, and unless Obama completely dominates unaffiliateds and gets a 2008-esque turnout among Democrats, those Latino numbers will doom his chances here, and perhaps elsewhere.
Mind you, why would you buy those Latino numbers, but not the independent numbers? I'd suggest that it might be a wash between the two -- Obama probably won't do as well as this among independents as this poll suggests, but Romney is also the least Latino-friendly candidate the Republicans have had in a decade or more, especially on the issue of immigration, so Obama's likely, in the end, to do better than 58% among Latinos.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: old timey villain on April 10, 2012, 07:51:07 PM
Colorado Is starting to turn Into a slight Blue state after years as Red state.Clinton only won In
1992 here because Perot got 29 percent of the vote.It slowly started turning back In 2004.Kerry lost by 8 compared to Gore losing by 15.And democrats started doing well In state and congressional races In 2004.Back In 2010 Democrats keep the Governor's office and Bennet was elected to full term In Senate.Colorado has a decent population of Hispanics.The ones Romney and Republicans have gone out of their way to ailenate.

If Obama wins the Kerry States plus Nevada,New Mexico and Colorado he wins the election.
The problem for Romney Is apart from Indina he Isn't ahead In any states Obama won.PPP
even has had Missouri,and Arizona tied.

The overall gist is correct, I totally agree with your analysis. But, Gore only lost by 8 and Kerry only lost by 5

And you're right about the Clinton years. Colorado was beginning to turn but Clinton lost it in 1996 despite improving on his national margin of victory. I suspect it was part of a larger trend in the entire Rocky mountain region. Maybe Clinton was perceived in 1992 as less of a fiscal conservative and made him more palatable to the voters in the wild wild west. But by 1996, he was seen to be more fiscally liberal after the budget fights. That probably improved his margins in traditionally big government states like New York and Massachusetts, but decreased his margin out west where they tend to be more anti government on all facets.

I think the Democratic party has moved to the left on social issues but has trended more to the right on fiscal issues, which I think has really helped in states like Colorado. It's full of granola type liberals who like Obama's more progressive stance on social issues and can't stand right wing moral rhetoric, but since Clinton the party has been perceived as less anti business which help them among suburban types out there.

And I know that a lot of Republicans might want to chime in and say that the Democrats have never been more big govt than they are now, but I don't really agree with that. Since Clinton they have really changed their tone. During the days on Reagan/Bush, democratic presidential candidates didn't seem to even touch on the issue of business. They prided themselves more as the keepers of social welfare programs. But when Clinton won in 1992 because of the "economy stupid" the party realized that a lot of their future success depended on their promises to improve the economy.

So they've kind of shifted their views on business to pick up those upscale suburban voters and that's the reason they have continuously won a handful of states that haven't voted Republican since 1988. Like Pennsylvania, Illinois and California.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Oakvale on April 10, 2012, 08:15:12 PM
This thread is a riot.

Virtually everybody agrees that Colorado will be very tight.  I don't have time to correct the multitude of erroneous statements mentioned here, but let me take a moment to correct just a few of them.

1.) No, Colorado is not "full of pot-smoking hipsters, ski bums, gays, etc."  It sounds like somebody's forgotten that Boulder comprises approximately 5% of the total state population.  Shocking though it may be, South Park isn't actually a good look at what Colorado is like.  And, frankly, as a CU-Boulder alum, even Boulder isn't quite like that.  Colorado is generally a right-leaning state.

2.) The Colorado GOP is actually is pretty good shape here.  We'll likely maintain our 4-3 congressional split, and might even pick up CD-7.  We'll also probably keep the state house, and possibly pick up the state Senate.  And we'll do all of that even with an Obama win here.  If Romney wins, we'll likely pick up CD-7 and both chambers of the legislature.  If Obama wins, the status quo will hold in terms of statewide politics.  That's not wishful thinking, but just basic numbers.  I'm active in local GOP politics, in Jefferson County, specifically, and the feeling here is very, very optimistic.  Keep in mind, we actually made legislative gains in 2008, despite the huge Democratic wave.  The GOP is in better financial shape here than the Democrats, and the GOP has opened up a significant active voter registration lead (see below).  It's hard to get upset about one early Democratic poll when everything else is going so well.

3.) In terms of the poll itself, did anybody actually dig into it?  Obama is getting only 58% of the Latino vote.  The Latino vote here has actually been trending right for a while.  Kerry did better than Obama among Latinos in Colorado, and the trend evidently continues. 

Second, active voter registration is R: 37 D: 32 and U: 30.  And the GOP has been out-registering Democrats by a sizable 6,000 vote margin since only January.  PPP has been doing their thing with swing states for a few months, and it's so old.  When they actually screen for likely voters, and get the actual voter numbers right, you'd find a very close race in a state that has been trending GOP for a couple of years now.

4.) 2010 was actually a good GOP year in Colorado.  We took back the state house, picked up a state senate seat, won 3 of 5 statewide races, picked up two Congressional seats to get a majority GOP delegation, and in 2011 the GOP helped knock down a tax hike for education by a 2:1 margin.  The Senate race was blown, the gubernatorial race was lost when Scott McInnis' campaign imploded.  Other than that, it was a good year here.

5.) The Massachusetts of the west?  Yeah, sure.

Okay. Spin aside, this is still the same state that Obama won by nine last time and is leading by thirteen this time around. I don't think "everyone agrees" that Colorado will be "very tight". I'm not saying it won't be tight, necessarily, but as of now there's no indication that Colorado's particularly close.

I expect it to be ultimately comparable to Wisconsin - Romney will make a halfhearted attempt to win it, but it's not part of his path to 270, and will stay blue by a decent margin.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Wisconsin+17 on April 10, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
So what is Romney's path to 270? I don't see it.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on April 10, 2012, 08:55:07 PM
So what is Romney's path to 270? I don't see it.

Must win:

IN
NC
FL

Win at least 2-3 of these:

NH
OH
NV
VA
CO

He won't make it to 270, of course. He may not even hit 150.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: You kip if you want to... on April 10, 2012, 08:59:59 PM
So what is Romney's path to 270? I don't see it.

Without CO, he gets to 272 with:

2008 + IN + NC + VA + OH + FL + (NV or IA).

Don't see NV flipping if CO has swung this much. Even Iowa's probably more viable, but that's not exactly likely either. For Romney to have a realistic chance, Obama needs to start losing in states where the last Democrat they didn't vote for was Mike Dukakis... and President Obama is just not a Michael Dukakis candidate.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: 5280 on April 10, 2012, 10:07:42 PM
I'm going to say this and make it simple, Romney needs to at least 'try' to win this state and not pull a John McCain 2.0. 


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Adam Griffin on April 10, 2012, 11:21:57 PM
Anybody who's doubting that CO is now effectively a blue state is living in 2004. The Republican Party isn't the same party as it was 8, hell, even 4 years ago. CO Republicanism by and large does not mesh well with Alabama Republicanism, which is effectively running the ideology of the Republican Party at this point. Obama's campaign forever changed the landscape in places like CO by registering tens of thousands of Latino voters that will forever be engaged in the political process and will (at least in political terms) forever be aligned against the Republican Party.

In their quest to "find a true conservative", "champion 'true' conservative values" and the like, I don't think many hardline conservatives have taken the time to look back and see how many people they've either thrown off the train or have jumped off voluntarily.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: 5280 on April 10, 2012, 11:29:59 PM
Anybody who's doubting that CO is now effectively a blue state is living in 2004. The Republican Party isn't the same party as it was 8, hell, even 4 years ago. CO Republicanism by and large does not mesh well with Alabama Republicanism, which is effectively running the ideology of the Republican Party at this point. Obama's campaign forever changed the landscape in places like CO by registering tens of thousands of Latino voters that will forever be engaged in the political process and will (at least in political terms) forever be aligned against the Republican Party.

In their quest to "find a true conservative", "champion 'true' conservative values" and the like, I don't think many hardline conservatives have taken the time to look back and see how many people they've either thrown off the train or have jumped off voluntarily.
And you have to question how many of those votes are fraud, and most likely the Democrat party wants to court as many illegal votes as possible to keep CO in the blue column for future elections.  I don't buy it one bit, you people make me sick to my stomach. CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on April 10, 2012, 11:32:54 PM
Anybody who's doubting that CO is now effectively a blue state is living in 2004. The Republican Party isn't the same party as it was 8, hell, even 4 years ago. CO Republicanism by and large does not mesh well with Alabama Republicanism, which is effectively running the ideology of the Republican Party at this point. Obama's campaign forever changed the landscape in places like CO by registering tens of thousands of Latino voters that will forever be engaged in the political process and will (at least in political terms) forever be aligned against the Republican Party.

In their quest to "find a true conservative", "champion 'true' conservative values" and the like, I don't think many hardline conservatives have taken the time to look back and see how many people they've either thrown off the train or have jumped off voluntarily.
And you have to question how many of those votes are fraud, and most likely the Democrat party wants to court as many illegal votes as possible to keep CO in the blue column as long as possible in future election.  I don't buy it one bit, you people make me sick to my stomach.

Woah man, lay off the kool-aid.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: freepcrusher on April 10, 2012, 11:41:24 PM
i wouldn't dance on CO's grave just yet. Although the CO GOP has their issues, they have a huge base of voters in most of El Paso, Douglas and pockets of Arapahoe and Jefferson counties. Those areas are also the fastest growing parts of the state. Also, Buck actually won Indies in 2010 despite being a flawed candidate. I think that Colorado will probably trend towards the democrats in the future but if you've read any of Sean Trende's book, a lot of trends can be suddenly reversed.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Adam Griffin on April 10, 2012, 11:42:10 PM
And you have to question how many of those votes are fraud, and most likely the Democrat party wants to court as many illegal votes as possible to keep CO in the blue column for future elections.  I don't buy it one bit, you people make me sick to my stomach. CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.

Yes, you have to question, but only if you're a racist idiot. Obama won CO in 2008 by a larger margin (215,000) than all of the illegal immigrants estimated to be in Colorado - of all ages (144,000). You seem to forget that there are over 1,000,000 Latinos in CO that can by all definitions of the law, legally vote.



Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 12:39:30 AM
And you have to question how many of those votes are fraud, and most likely the Democrat party wants to court as many illegal votes as possible to keep CO in the blue column for future elections.  I don't buy it one bit, you people make me sick to my stomach. CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.

Yes, you have to question, but only if you're a racist idiot. Obama won CO in 2008 by a larger margin (215,000) than all of the illegal immigrants estimated to be in Colorado - of all ages (144,000). You seem to forget that there are over 1,000,000 Latinos in CO that can by all definitions of the law, legally vote.



But why let facts get in the way?


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: NVGonzalez on April 11, 2012, 12:41:29 AM
Anyone that mentions that illegals vote does not know what they are talking about.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: bgwah on April 11, 2012, 12:45:41 AM
Anybody who's doubting that CO is now effectively a blue state is living in 2004. The Republican Party isn't the same party as it was 8, hell, even 4 years ago. CO Republicanism by and large does not mesh well with Alabama Republicanism, which is effectively running the ideology of the Republican Party at this point. Obama's campaign forever changed the landscape in places like CO by registering tens of thousands of Latino voters that will forever be engaged in the political process and will (at least in political terms) forever be aligned against the Republican Party.

In their quest to "find a true conservative", "champion 'true' conservative values" and the like, I don't think many hardline conservatives have taken the time to look back and see how many people they've either thrown off the train or have jumped off voluntarily.
And you have to question how many of those votes are fraud, and most likely the Democrat party wants to court as many illegal votes as possible to keep CO in the blue column for future elections.  I don't buy it one bit, you people make me sick to my stomach. CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.

Poor grammar, no creativity, generic insults... I give your troll performance a D-. I'd recommend adding some form of humor, or at least trying to take offensive positions on sensitive issues (something like Trayvon Martin).


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 06:40:02 AM
I expect it to be ultimately comparable to Wisconsin - Romney will make a halfhearted attempt to win it, but it's not part of his path to 270, and will stay blue by a decent margin.
Obama could win Wisconsin by 0.4% like Kerry or 0.22% like Gore, but than he'd have to go around slashing bus tires, have 10,000 unverifiable votes in Milwaukee, have more 'Votes' than 'Votes cast,' have felons vote illegally, engage in electioneering, and suspend Wisconsin voter id laws.  You know like the last three presidential campaigns.   


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Phony Moderate on April 11, 2012, 06:44:38 AM
CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.

Judging by your sig, you are in the latter category.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.

Judging by your sig, you are in the latter category.

Yes, the first to personally attack (i.e. lefties) are VERY smart.  We know this because they are always saying so.  Do some soul searching.  We love you too, you know.     


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: opebo on April 11, 2012, 07:18:16 AM
So what is Romney's path to 270? I don't see it.

Without CO, he gets to 272 with:

2008 + IN + NC + VA + OH + FL + (NV or IA).

Don't see NV flipping if CO has swung this much. Even Iowa's probably more viable, but that's not exactly likely either. For Romney to have a realistic chance, Obama needs to start losing in states where the last Democrat they didn't vote for was Mike Dukakis... and President Obama is just not a Michael Dukakis candidate.

Doesn't recent polling suggest that Michigan is probably a better prospect for Romney than Iowa?  Or even Pennsylvania. I've no idea how useful the polling is in that sense..

Seems to me that Romney can safely assume Indiana this time, will have to fight just a bit for North Carolina, and a bit more for Florida, but those two look reasonably positive for him, while Colorado and Nevada look beyond the pale.

New Hampshire is a very strong possibility, and while Ohio and Virginia look quite bad for him, both Pennsylvania and Michigan look closer than expected.

While this map is still his most likely threading of the needle:

(
)

I think this map is more likely than the one below it:

(
)

(
)

However of course this is my prediction and I stand by it:

(
)



Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Tender Branson on April 11, 2012, 11:12:57 AM
Obama's up 72-17 among voters under 30. I think we know what way Colorado's going to trend in the future. :P

CO is full of young hipster skiing/snowboarding marihuana-smoking, gay-loving people with I-Phones, college education and in professional occupations. Mixed with the Hispanics, Blacks and Asians it's the poster child of an Obama state. And if Bennet won it in 2010, I don't see why Obama shouldn't win it in November. It's probably still going to narrow a bit, but if had had to bet I would bet a good amount on Obama.

From PPP's twitters:

Quote
77% of voters under 30 in Colorado think gay marriage should be legal.

;)


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 11:40:37 AM
Mitt is a civil union guy, what's Obama's position??? Lie and do something after the election or "evolving" ???


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: King on April 11, 2012, 11:42:58 AM
CO is a melting pot for west coast Liberalism and idiots.

Judging by your sig, you are in the latter category.

Yes, the first to personally attack (i.e. lefties) are VERY smart.  We know this because they are always saying so.  Do some soul searching.  We love you too, you know.     

Sorry, you haven't been around here long enough to know that Rocky is, in fact, an idiot for apolitical reasons.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: pbrower2a on April 11, 2012, 12:26:48 PM
This thread is a riot.

Virtually everybody agrees that Colorado will be very tight.  I don't have time to correct the multitude of erroneous statements mentioned here, but let me take a moment to correct just a few of them.

1.) No, Colorado is not "full of pot-smoking hipsters, ski bums, gays, etc."  It sounds like somebody's forgotten that Boulder comprises approximately 5% of the total state population.  Shocking though it may be, South Park isn't actually a good look at what Colorado is like.  And, frankly, as a CU-Boulder alum, even Boulder isn't quite like that.  Colorado is generally a right-leaning state.

Never been in Boulder... but don't expect to see Mork and Mindy living there, either. Don't rely on outmoded stereotypes. The Capone gang does not operate with impunity in Chicago anymore.

Quote
2.) The Colorado GOP is actually is pretty good shape here.  We'll likely maintain our 4-3 congressional split, and might even pick up CD-7.  We'll also probably keep the state house, and possibly pick up the state Senate.  And we'll do all of that even with an Obama win here.  If Romney wins, we'll likely pick up CD-7 and both chambers of the legislature.  If Obama wins, the status quo will hold in terms of statewide politics.  That's not wishful thinking, but just basic numbers.  I'm active in local GOP politics, in Jefferson County, specifically, and the feeling here is very, very optimistic.  Keep in mind, we actually made legislative gains in 2008, despite the huge Democratic wave.  The GOP is in better financial shape here than the Democrats, and the GOP has opened up a significant active voter registration lead (see below).  It's hard to get upset about one early Democratic poll when everything else is going so well.

This poll corresponds with a sudden increase in approvals of the President and collapses of Republican campaigns. Maybe Mitt Romney will no longer have to take outrageous right-wing stances to co-opt primary challengers, but nobody can say that the damage hasn't been done.

There are several potential explanations of any trend. One may be that this one is a fluke or a reflection of a transitory movement in the polls nationwide. Another may be that President Obama is doing what highly-successful incumbents do, which is breaking away toward a landslide. See me in November for an explanation.

Quote
3.) In terms of the poll itself, did anybody actually dig into it?  Obama is getting only 58% of the Latino vote.  The Latino vote here has actually been trending right for a while.  Kerry did better than Obama among Latinos in Colorado, and the trend evidently continues. 


Colorado does not have the polarizing characteristics of a real estate collapse (Nevada) or anti-immigrant frenzy (Arizona) that would shift Mexican-Americans even more sharply to the Left.  Colorado is more like New Mexico in that respect. Still, New Mexico is a disaster for Republicans on the whole.

Quote
Second, active voter registration is R: 37 D: 32 and U: 30.  And the GOP has been out-registering Democrats by a sizable 6,000 vote margin since only January.  PPP has been doing their thing with swing states for a few months, and it's so old.  When they actually screen for likely voters, and get the actual voter numbers right, you'd find a very close race in a state that has been trending GOP for a couple of years now.

Trending GOP? The GOP may have been picking up registered voters just in time for the primaries (there is no real action in the Democratic primary for the highest offices). When the Democrats have their GOTV drive in the late summer and early autumn that will be reversed powerfully. Colorado has been drifting D with respect to the US as a whole since 2000. As a Republican you do not want the Presidential election to hinge upon Colorado, which has no Governors who can give help to the Republican nominee.

Colorado went 51-46 for Dubya in 2004, 51-42 for Bush in 2000, and barely went for Dole in 1996 (in a Clinton blowout). Democrats underperformed in Colorado in 1992. Democrats held a Senate seat with an appointed pol and held the Governorship in 2010 in a bad year for Democrats. It has been lean-R in Presidential elections over the last 20 years but close to the national average in 2008, and probably lean-D in 2010. I'd estimate that Colorado is about D+1 now -- probably more D than Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, or Iowa now.

If Colorado is slightly R-leaning and the President has a double-digit lead in Colorado, then the President looks to be on the way to a landslide analogous to Eisenhower in 1956.

 
Quote
4.) 2010 was actually a good GOP year in Colorado.  We took back the state house, picked up a state senate seat, won 3 of 5 statewide races, picked up two Congressional seats to get a majority GOP delegation, and in 2011 the GOP helped knock down a tax hike for education by a 2:1 margin.  The Senate race was blown, the gubernatorial race was lost when Scott McInnis' campaign imploded.  Other than that, it was a good year here.

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Quote
5.) The Massachusetts of the west?  Yeah, sure.


OK, a little hyperbole. Colorado has competitors in California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and New Mexico.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 12:40:32 PM

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Name one "GOP extremist" in Wisconsin or even an "unpopular" GOP office holder.  
hint: there isn't one.  


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 12:44:57 PM

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Name one "GOP extremist" in Wisconsin or even an "unpopular" GOP office holder. 
hint: their isn't one. 
LOL.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Gass3268 on April 11, 2012, 12:53:58 PM

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Name one "GOP extremist" in Wisconsin or even an "unpopular" GOP office holder. 
hint: their isn't one. 

Anyone in the legislature not named Dale Schultz. 


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 12:59:53 PM

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Name one "GOP extremist" in Wisconsin or even an "unpopular" GOP office holder. 
hint: their isn't one. 

Anyone in the legislature not named Dale Schultz. 

Actually I'm not an expert on his district, but that Rino might be the ONE and only unpopular R in the state.  That mining bill was such a disgrace to his legacy and the entire democrat party.   


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 01:05:54 PM
The emphasis is on DISGRACEFUL.  Think of the Harrison Ford line in the movie 'Sabrina': "I'm not about to throw away a billion dollars."  Well every democrat was the deciding vote to throw away TENs of billions of dollars.  Disgrace.   


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 01:21:10 PM

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Name one "GOP extremist" in Wisconsin or even an "unpopular" GOP office holder. 
hint: their isn't one. 

Anyone in the legislature not named Dale Schultz. 

Actually I'm not an expert on his district, but that Rino might be the ONE and only unpopular R in the state.  That mining bill was such a disgrace to his legacy and the entire democrat party.   

"Surviving recall vote" is really defining "popular" downward.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Gass3268 on April 11, 2012, 01:25:36 PM

But not compared to some moderate and even states like Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Florida that voted in GOP extremists who are becoming very unpopular very quickly.

Name one "GOP extremist" in Wisconsin or even an "unpopular" GOP office holder. 
hint: their isn't one. 

Anyone in the legislature not named Dale Schultz. 

Actually I'm not an expert on his district, but that Rino might be the ONE and only unpopular R in the state.  That mining bill was such a disgrace to his legacy and the entire democrat party.   

I was answering your extremist question, not the unpopular question. Obviously most of the Republican's are popular in their districts, but that doesn't mean they aren't extremists. I'm predicting that at least 2 state senate seats are going to go to the Democrats in June. The map is a bit more favorable this time then it was last year.

Shultz's area is the most Democratic district currently represented by a Republican. It went to Obama 59.8-38.6, while only going to Walker/Johnson 52.6-47.4 before going pretty handily for Kloppenburg. I am guessing he's pretty popular in his district if he can continue to win.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 01:32:18 PM

"Surviving recall vote" is really defining "popular" downward.

A majority supports, votes for, and RE-Elects = "popular" = "Surviving recall vote."

I don't know how you rationalize decisive victory into "defining downward," but it made me laugh. 


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 01:37:17 PM
Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?  You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Gass3268 on April 11, 2012, 01:45:44 PM
Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties? They are the ones that send most of the extremists to the statehouse year after year. 

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Hash on April 11, 2012, 01:53:37 PM

The word is there, dear troll.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 01:54:41 PM
Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties?

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.

Sigh, Collective Bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege.  Walker gave public employees the privilege to opt out of these belligerent Unions.  I know that expansion of freedom is scary to you, but it is not extremist.  Thinking you have a right from God to Bargain against the taxpayers of Wisconsin IS extremist.

Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties are the most productive, highest tax-paying people in the state, what is extreme about them?      


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 02:01:54 PM
Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties?

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.

Sigh, Collective Bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege.  Walker gave public employees the privilege to opt out of these belligerent Unions.  I know that expansion of freedom is scary to you, but it is not extremist.  Thinking you have a right from God to Bargain against the taxpayers of Wisconsin IS extremist.

Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties are the most productive, highest tax-paying people in the state, what is extreme about them?      

I guess I'm with Ronald Reagan on this one:
"These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination.  They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.  They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.  You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children.  Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."

Also:

"I happen to be the only president of a union ever to be a candidate for President of the United States.
As president of my union -- the Screen Actors Guild -- I spent many hours with the late George Meany, whose love of this country and whose belief in a strong defense against all totalitarians is one of labor’s greatest legacies. "

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/9.1.80.html

It's a measure of today's Republican party that it now views defending something Ronald Reagan saw as a bulwark against totalitarianism makes you in to a leftist extremist.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Gass3268 on April 11, 2012, 02:09:35 PM
It's really funny how many of Reagan's views wouldn't be acceptable in today's Republican party.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Person Man on April 11, 2012, 02:10:49 PM
It's really funny how many of Reagan's views wouldn't be acceptable in today's Republican party.

It makes me wonder if this is hyperbole or if this really is 21st century analog of 1930 Germany.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 02:16:19 PM
Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties?

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.

Sigh, Collective Bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege.  Walker gave public employees the privilege to opt out of these belligerent Unions.  I know that expansion of freedom is scary to you, but it is not extremist.  Thinking you have a right from God to Bargain against the taxpayers of Wisconsin IS extremist.

Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties are the most productive, highest tax-paying people in the state, what is extreme about them?      

I guess I'm with Ronald Reagan on this one:
"These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination.  They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.  They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.  You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children.  Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."

Also:

"I happen to be the only president of a union ever to be a candidate for President of the United States.
As president of my union -- the Screen Actors Guild -- I spent many hours with the late George Meany, whose love of this country and whose belief in a strong defense against all totalitarians is one of labor’s greatest legacies. "

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/9.1.80.html

It's a measure of today's Republican party that it now views defending something Ronald Reagan saw as a bulwark against totalitarianism makes you in to a leftist extremist.

Reagan was probably talking about private sector Unions.  He ordered the air traffic controllers back to work and desertified that Union as I recall.  

I guess I'm with FDR on this one:
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the National Federation of Federal Employees. Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, "I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place" in the public sector. "A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government."
And the last prominent American Socialist
Frank Zeidler, Milwaukee's mayor in the 1950s and the last card-carrying Socialist to head a major U.S. city, supported labor. But in 1969, the progressive icon wrote that the rise of unions in government work put a competing power in charge of public business next to elected officials. Government unions "can mean considerable loss of control over the budget, and hence over tax rates," he warned.  There was "a revolutionary principle rather quietly at work in American government," he wrote.

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"

Walker's modest shift is to try securing necessary government at a better price. The public unions, whose model depends on making government labor as costly as taxpayers will bear, object.  


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 02:19:47 PM
It's really funny how many of Reagan's views wouldn't be acceptable in today's Republican party.

It makes me wonder if this is hyperbole or if this really is 21st century analog of 1930 Germany.

It's really funny how FDR and Frank Zeidler would be right-wing-extremists in today's democrat party.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on April 11, 2012, 02:21:50 PM
It's really funny how many of Reagan's views wouldn't be acceptable in today's Republican party.

It makes me wonder if this is hyperbole or if this really is 21st century analog of 1930 Germany.

It's really funny how FDR and Frank Zeidler would be right-wing-extremists in today's democrat party.

It's even funnier how that's not true at all.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 02:23:47 PM
It's really funny how many of Reagan's views wouldn't be acceptable in today's Republican party.

It makes me wonder if this is hyperbole or if this really is 21st century analog of 1930 Germany.

It's really funny how FDR and Frank Zeidler would be right-wing-extremists in today's democrat party.

It's even funnier how that's not true at all.
I'd like to know how the truth "(isn't) true at all."


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 02:31:17 PM

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"


If that's what you heard, then you simply weren't listening:

"In fast-moving events Friday: Leaders of the state's biggest public worker unions said they would give in to the governor's demand for concessions on workers' benefits if Walker would give up his bid to repeal nearly all public union bargaining rights; Walker rejected that offer, saying government needed more flexibility in dealing with its employees; "

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 02:34:35 PM
If I was a Liberal and wanted government to start new programs and 'do' a thousand more 'wonderful' things, I wouldn't be able to because the stupid public Unions are sucking up all the money.  If someone says "tax the rich" my head will explode.  You could CONFISCATE the wealth of the "Rich" and it wouldn't be enough!    


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Person Man on April 11, 2012, 02:36:00 PM
This shows that Walker is more interested in radical change than in solving real problems.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: opebo on April 11, 2012, 02:40:32 PM
If I was a Liberal and wanted government to start new programs and 'do' a thousand more 'wonderful' things, I wouldn't be able to because the stupid public Unions are sucking up all the money.  If someone says "tax the rich" my head will explode.  You could CONFISCATE the wealth of the "Rich" and it wouldn't be enough!    

The point is to punish them for their crimes. I prefer the guillotine.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 02:41:04 PM

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"


If that's what you heard, then you simply weren't listening:

"In fast-moving events Friday: Leaders of the state's biggest public worker unions said they would give in to the governor's demand for concessions on workers' benefits if Walker would give up his bid to repeal nearly all public union bargaining rights; Walker rejected that offer, saying government needed more flexibility in dealing with its employees; "

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

Sigh, They made that up after they lost the PR battle badly the first few days.  
"Trust us governor, we will reverse our decades long pattern of behavior and work on behalf of the taxpayers! ! !"  "Just give us all our power back so we can take you out."

They have repeatedly refused to do what you are claiming they agreed to, in the communities that are not operating under act 10 because Union controlled school boards rammed through contract extensions and are now broke and must lay off teachers.  They would rather fire their "brothers and sisters" than make the concessions they already "agreed to."


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 02:50:52 PM

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"


If that's what you heard, then you simply weren't listening:

"In fast-moving events Friday: Leaders of the state's biggest public worker unions said they would give in to the governor's demand for concessions on workers' benefits if Walker would give up his bid to repeal nearly all public union bargaining rights; Walker rejected that offer, saying government needed more flexibility in dealing with its employees; "

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

Sigh, They made that up after they lost the PR battle badly the first few days.  
"Trust us governor, we will reverse our decades long pattern of behavior and work on behalf of the taxpayers! ! !"  "Just give us all our power back so we can take you out."

They have repeatedly refused to do what you are claiming they agreed to, in the communities that are not operating under act 10 because Union controlled school boards rammed through contract extensions and are now broke and must lay off teachers.  They would rather fire their "brothers and sisters" than make the concessions they already "agreed too."

Don't forget, of course, that the Wisconsin state pension system was one of the very few in the country that was properly funded all along, while composing 1.35% of the state budget:

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=556976

And, since pension contributions were deferred compensation, Wisconsin public-sector workers were actually paying for their pension themselves after all. What Gov. Walker was asking them to do was not to contribute more to their pensions, but to take a pay cut.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 02:55:15 PM
wow!,

 not paying anything toward your pension = "paying for their pension themselves after all"

and

"deferred compensation" = I get paid after I stop working via "Magic"


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 03:00:18 PM
wow!,

 not paying anything toward your pension = "paying for their pension themselves after all"

and

"deferred compensation" = I get paid after I stop working via "Magic"
No, "deferred compensation", meaning "I'll take some of my salary now, and put some of it into a pension fund instead."


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 03:11:26 PM
wow!,

 not paying anything toward your pension = "paying for their pension themselves after all"

and

"deferred compensation" = I get paid after I stop working via "Magic"
No, "deferred compensation", meaning "I'll take some of my salary now, and put some of it into a pension fund instead."


OK I read your link, "Wisconsin taxpayers spent about $12.6 billion on public employee pensions while public employees contributed only $55.4 million." I think that comes out to 0.4%...  wow and 99.6% magically appears. 


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: ajb on April 11, 2012, 03:16:13 PM
wow!,

 not paying anything toward your pension = "paying for their pension themselves after all"

and

"deferred compensation" = I get paid after I stop working via "Magic"
No, "deferred compensation", meaning "I'll take some of my salary now, and put some of it into a pension fund instead."


OK I read your link, "From Governor Walker’s standpoint, however, it’s an issue of equity. From 2000 to 2009, the governor says, Wisconsin taxpayers spent about $12.6 billion on public employee pensions while public employees contributed only $55.4 million.

" I think that comes out to 0.4%...  wow and 99.6% magically appears. 
Fixed your quote from the stateline.org piece. From the Forbes (Forbes, mind you!) piece, citing a piece on tax.com:

"Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers."


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 03:19:43 PM
we should move this over to a more aptly titled board
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=143831.90
Scott Walker recall goes live


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 03:23:26 PM
Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties?

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.

Sigh, Collective Bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege.  Walker gave public employees the privilege to opt out of these belligerent Unions.  I know that expansion of freedom is scary to you, but it is not extremist.  Thinking you have a right from God to Bargain against the taxpayers of Wisconsin IS extremist.

Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties are the most productive, highest tax-paying people in the state, what is extreme about them?      

I guess I'm with Ronald Reagan on this one:
"These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination.  They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.  They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.  You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children.  Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."

Also:

"I happen to be the only president of a union ever to be a candidate for President of the United States.
As president of my union -- the Screen Actors Guild -- I spent many hours with the late George Meany, whose love of this country and whose belief in a strong defense against all totalitarians is one of labor’s greatest legacies. "

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/9.1.80.html

It's a measure of today's Republican party that it now views defending something Ronald Reagan saw as a bulwark against totalitarianism makes you in to a leftist extremist.

Reagan was probably talking about private sector Unions.  He ordered the air traffic controllers back to work and desertified that Union as I recall.  

I guess I'm with FDR on this one:
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the National Federation of Federal Employees. Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, "I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place" in the public sector. "A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government."
And the last prominent American Socialist
Frank Zeidler, Milwaukee's mayor in the 1950s and the last card-carrying Socialist to head a major U.S. city, supported labor. But in 1969, the progressive icon wrote that the rise of unions in government work put a competing power in charge of public business next to elected officials. Government unions "can mean considerable loss of control over the budget, and hence over tax rates," he warned.  There was "a revolutionary principle rather quietly at work in American government," he wrote.

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"

Walker's modest shift is to try securing necessary government at a better price. The public unions, whose model depends on making government labor as costly as taxpayers will bear, object.  


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on April 11, 2012, 04:23:40 PM
AmericanNation, have you heard of a user named CaDan? Or possibly Derek?


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: AmericanNation on April 11, 2012, 04:34:10 PM
nope


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Gass3268 on April 11, 2012, 06:25:29 PM
we should move this over to a more aptly titled board
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=143831.90
Scott Walker recall goes live

I agree and I apologizing for being partially responsible for turning this Colorado Presidential poll into a Wisconsin Recall debate.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: Person Man on April 12, 2012, 05:46:38 PM
we should move this over to a more aptly titled board
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=143831.90
Scott Walker recall goes live

I agree and I apologizing for being partially responsible for turning this Colorado Presidential poll into a Wisconsin Recall debate.

Well, there is one thing we can all agree on- It's radical to call a reactionary a reactionary and its reactionary to call a radical a radical... though we still disagree to which point one is greater.


Title: Re: CO: PPP: Obama up double-digits
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 13, 2012, 01:03:41 PM
i wouldn't dance on CO's grave just yet. Although the CO GOP has their issues, they have a huge base of voters in most of El Paso, Douglas and pockets of Arapahoe and Jefferson counties. Those areas are also the fastest growing parts of the state. Also, Buck actually won Indies in 2010 despite being a flawed candidate. I think that Colorado will probably trend towards the democrats in the future but if you've read any of Sean Trende's book, a lot of trends can be suddenly reversed.

The CO GOP is dominated by the Religious Right, which could work in Alabama or Louisiana but doesn't bode well for Colorado's demographics. This isn't the 1990s anymore-people like James Dobson are extremely polarizing in Colorado, and I would dare say that a strong majority are either opposed to him or turned off by his rhetoric, especially the younger generation of Coloradans.

If you compare Colorado to, say, Arizona, which has a much stronger GOP (it helps that the white population in Arizona is less educated, on average, than the Colorado GOP), plus a rather weak Democratic Party (unlike Colorado), it becomes clear why Independents in Colorado would be more inclined to vote Democratic than they are in Arizona.