Talk Elections

General Politics => U.S. General Discussion => Topic started by: The Mikado on April 11, 2012, 05:40:04 PM



Title: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: The Mikado on April 11, 2012, 05:40:04 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on April 11, 2012, 05:49:28 PM
Predictions for a verdict?


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on April 11, 2012, 06:18:56 PM
It's still going to make federal hate crime charges harder since he didn't think  "Oooooooh, tonight I'll kill a black kid".


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on April 11, 2012, 06:19:40 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

They may accept a plea for that but charge high, accept lower?  Badger?  Thoughts?


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: J. J. on April 11, 2012, 06:23:04 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

They may accept a plea for that but charge high, accept lower?  Badger?  Thoughts?

Overcharging is common.

I saw a similar case where the DA (guess who) charge Murder 1, Murder 3, and Voluntary Manslaughter.  The first two were dismissed at the preliminary hearing.  He was found not guilty on the third.

Joe Amendola was his lawyer.  ;)


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: tpfkaw on April 11, 2012, 06:52:46 PM
Not guilty from the facts of the case, but he'll probably have crappy legal representation and of course a hostile jury so it's debatable.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Sam Spade on April 11, 2012, 06:58:43 PM
Sounds to me like overcharging, hoping he's dumb enough to take Voluntary Man as a plea.  And quiet down the nutjob blacks, though it won't.

Based on the facts, I don't see how you get a verdict for more the Voluntary Man, or if you do, how that verdict is upheld.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Fritz on April 11, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
He will attempt to have the case dismissed under Stand Your Ground.  That will fail.  Then, they will plea bargain for manslaughter.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Beet on April 11, 2012, 07:02:31 PM
Whatever happens, he will get a chance to have a trial. Trayvon Martin never did.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: DrScholl on April 11, 2012, 07:10:09 PM
This is very fair. I doubt Angela Corey would have charged without having good reason, she's a tough prosecutor and knows her job. Pulling the race card on either side right now is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure Corey will be enemy number one for the right-wing, because she didn't do what they wanted.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: J. J. on April 11, 2012, 07:12:39 PM
Not guilty from the facts of the case, but he'll probably have crappy legal representation and of course a hostile jury so it's debatable.

I wouldn't be ready to say not guilty.  The forensic evidence will be telling.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Beet on April 11, 2012, 07:14:22 PM
We still don't know all the facts of the case, not as well as the people involved. I would not say guilty or not guilty based on public media reports alone. Let the process play out.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 11, 2012, 07:31:05 PM

wat


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Ogre Mage on April 11, 2012, 07:41:53 PM
I thought an arrest might be coming down the pipe when I saw this yesterday:

Quote
The following are details from a press conference by the former attorneys for George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who authorities say fatally shot an unarmed teenager in Florida. The attorneys said Tuesday that they're no longer representing him, because they have lost contact with him.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-attorneys-to-speak/?hpt=hp_c1 (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-attorneys-to-speak/?hpt=hp_c1)

The whole incident just seemed strange, calling a press conference to tell reporters they are no longer representing their client.  I suspect the fact they no longer seemed to know their client's whereabouts was alarming to Angela Corey.

Quote
Uhrig said Zimmerman has taken his own steps since they lost contact with him on Sunday, including:

– Speaking to Fox News' Sean Hannity by phone, apparently off the record. "(Hannity) is not willing to tell us what our client told him."

What?  Zimmerman was not in contact with his attorneys but was willing to talk with Faux News?  No comment.




Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Paul Kemp on April 11, 2012, 07:47:42 PM
I really haven't paid attention to this at all (or at least as much as most people) but people don't actually think he shouldn't be charged, do they? Even if you think he's not guilty, let it go to trial.

On the matter of guilt or innocence, my belief is that the shooting wasn't justified in any manner. Even with a "Stand Your Ground" law, it is my opinion that he declined that right when he started pursuing Martin.

Obviously, no one has all the facts though.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Torie on April 11, 2012, 07:57:56 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on April 11, 2012, 08:05:48 PM
Wormyguy's special talent is disagreeing with everything that a majority of people believe.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Ogre Mage on April 11, 2012, 08:15:54 PM
I really haven't paid attention to this at all (or at least as much as most people) but people don't actually think he shouldn't be charged, do they? Even if you think he's not guilty, let it go to trial.

On the matter of guilt or innocence, my belief is that the shooting wasn't justified in any manner. Even with a "Stand Your Ground" law, it is my opinion that he declined that right when he started pursuing Martin.

Obviously, no one has all the facts though.

You have put your finger on a salient point -- the reason this case blew up the way it did was because the shooter was, up till this point, not charged and the local police seemed to just take his statements at face value in spite of the fact there were significant problems with his story.  One would think they would have tried a little harder when there was a dead body of an unarmed teenager.

Faux News and its affiliates, of course, are making a full-blown attempt to stir up white resentment.  I suspect most of them have never had the experience of being accosted by the police or store security "driving while black," "walking while black" or "shopping while black."


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: jimrtex on April 11, 2012, 09:01:50 PM
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-attorneys-to-speak/?hpt=hp_c1 (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-attorneys-to-speak/?hpt=hp_c1)

The whole incident just seemed strange, calling a press conference to tell reporters they are no longer representing their client.  I suspect the fact they no longer seemed to know their client's whereabouts was alarming to Angela Corey.

Quote
Uhrig said Zimmerman has taken his own steps since they lost contact with him on Sunday, including:

– Speaking to Fox News' Sean Hannity by phone, apparently off the record. "(Hannity) is not willing to tell us what our client told him."

What?  Zimmerman was not in contact with his attorneys but was willing to talk with Faux News?  No comment.
You trying to get a job at NBC?

The very next line says:

Quote
– Calling the special prosecutor's office directly, as opposed to through his attorneys, and offering to come in and answer investigators' questions. The prosecutor's office told Zimmerman that they weren't going to talk to him without counsel, Uhrig said.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Paul Kemp on April 11, 2012, 09:31:56 PM
I can't believe I didn't think of this before. Here's a somewhat similar situation that happened on Long Island a few years ago, with a black father shooting a white teen in front of his home:

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/miller-place-man-who-shot-teen-surrenders-heads-to-jail-1.2086763

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Black-Father-Finally-Jailed-For-Killing-White-Teen-98042434.html

Interesting case to compare and contrast.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Sam Spade on April 11, 2012, 09:54:09 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.

Go re-read the Florida statute, Torie.  By your post, it implies that you haven't.  :)


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: J. J. on April 11, 2012, 09:56:50 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.

Some of his story might check out.  911 supposedly asked him for the address and claims he stopped to check the house number.

This one is going to be dependent on forensics, i.e. how far was Martin away from the gun, and what was the angle of the bullet?


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Torie on April 11, 2012, 10:05:07 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.

Go re-read the Florida statute, Torie.  By your post, it implies that you haven't.  :)

I didn't. Does it have a curve ball in it?


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Sam Spade on April 11, 2012, 10:11:59 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.

Go re-read the Florida statute, Torie.  By your post, it implies that you haven't.  :)

I didn't. Does it have a curve ball in it?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0782/0782ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2011&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20782


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: J. J. on April 11, 2012, 11:20:58 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.

Go re-read the Florida statute, Torie.  By your post, it implies that you haven't.  :)

I didn't. Does it have a curve ball in it?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0782/0782ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2011&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20782

If Zimmerman is telling the truth, I think it would be justifiable under this statute:


782.02 Justifiable use of deadly force.—The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.02.html


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Ogre Mage on April 11, 2012, 11:49:36 PM
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-attorneys-to-speak/?hpt=hp_c1 (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-attorneys-to-speak/?hpt=hp_c1)

The whole incident just seemed strange, calling a press conference to tell reporters they are no longer representing their client.  I suspect the fact they no longer seemed to know their client's whereabouts was alarming to Angela Corey.

Quote
Uhrig said Zimmerman has taken his own steps since they lost contact with him on Sunday, including:

– Speaking to Fox News' Sean Hannity by phone, apparently off the record. "(Hannity) is not willing to tell us what our client told him."

What?  Zimmerman was not in contact with his attorneys but was willing to talk with Faux News?  No comment.
You trying to get a job at NBC?

The very next line says:

Quote
– Calling the special prosecutor's office directly, as opposed to through his attorneys, and offering to come in and answer investigators' questions. The prosecutor's office told Zimmerman that they weren't going to talk to him without counsel, Uhrig said.

Which part of the bolded statement is not clear?  Since you seem so sympathetic to Zimmerman's position, perhaps you can explain why he stopped communicating with his legal counsel but was willing to talk with Sean Hannity.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on April 12, 2012, 12:13:26 AM
My guess is that he'll be found not guilty.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on April 12, 2012, 12:23:34 AM
This is very fair. I doubt Angela Corey would have charged without having good reason, she's a tough prosecutor and knows her job. Pulling the race card on either side right now is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure Corey will be enemy number one for the right-wing, because she didn't do what they wanted.

Since she's a Republican and Zimmerman is a registered Democrat, that'd be quite odd. And probably why it won't happen.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on April 12, 2012, 12:36:50 PM
Spade, would you go for a trial by judge (if that's an option in FL) or a jury, assuming no plea bargain is achieved?

I think the jury would be scared as hell to acquit, but a judge might look strictly at facts, not sentiment or be influenced by fear.

Interesting question (to me).


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on April 12, 2012, 12:45:34 PM
Spade, would you go for a trial by judge (if that's an option in FL) or a jury, assuming no plea bargain is achieved?

I think the jury would be scared as hell to acquit, but a judge might look strictly at facts, not sentiment or be influenced by fear.

Interesting question (to me).

They'll probably be trying to get a jury who doesn't know / hasn't paid attention to the case in the media.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Brittain33 on April 12, 2012, 02:29:54 PM
At this point, knowing that he's actually going to be tried and attention paid is enough for me--a guilty verdict may well be impossible under current FL law. It's too late to make up for the negligence that the killing of this kid got in the first days when evidence could have been gathered but Zimmerman was treated like nothing had happened. But it's the best that could happen now.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: LastVoter on April 12, 2012, 02:54:56 PM
Spade, would you go for a trial by judge (if that's an option in FL) or a jury, assuming no plea bargain is achieved?

I think the jury would be scared as hell to acquit, but a judge might look strictly at facts, not sentiment or be influenced by fear.

Interesting question (to me).

They'll probably be trying to get a jury who doesn't know / hasn't paid attention to the case in the media.
Good luck.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: jimrtex on April 12, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
The whole incident just seemed strange, calling a press conference to tell reporters they are no longer representing their client.  I suspect the fact they no longer seemed to know their client's whereabouts was alarming to Angela Corey.

Quote

– Speaking to Fox News' Sean Hannity by phone, apparently off the record.

What?  Zimmerman was not in contact with his attorneys but was willing to talk with Faux News?

You trying to get a job at NBC?

The very next line says:

Quote
– Calling the special prosecutor's office directly,

Which part of the bolded statement is not clear?  Since you seem so sympathetic to Zimmerman's position, perhaps you can explain why he stopped communicating with his legal counsel but was willing to talk with Sean Hannity.
Wannabe NBC producer contends that Angela Corey would be alarmed that the attorneys didn't know where Zimmerman was; but Zimmerman had called her office.

BTW, Zimmerman's new lawyer suggested that it was quite unusual for a pair of lawyers to announce they weren't going to represent Zimmerman any more, and then talk to the press for another hour.

Maybe Angela Corey was concerned that she was looking at the possibility of a murder conviction overturned on grounds of incompetent legal defense.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: The Mikado on April 12, 2012, 03:35:20 PM
Spade, would you go for a trial by judge (if that's an option in FL) or a jury, assuming no plea bargain is achieved?

I think the jury would be scared as hell to acquit, but a judge might look strictly at facts, not sentiment or be influenced by fear.

Interesting question (to me).

They'll probably be trying to get a jury who doesn't know / hasn't paid attention to the case in the media.
Good luck.

This is the United States.  It'd be, sadly, trivially easy to find a dozen people who have never even heard of this case.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on April 13, 2012, 12:46:30 AM
The guy is obviously an idiot (note this previous behavior that caused his attorneys to jump ship), so turning a jury on him shouldn't be too hard.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Reaganfan on April 13, 2012, 02:01:54 PM
Second degree is too much. It'll end up being something much less.

The main difference between Florida's law and the Castle "Make My Day" Law, is standing your ground.

In a state such as Ohio, if someone is forcefully intruding into your home or even your car, you can simply kill that person if you feel your life is in danger. However, once that person is turned away running, you can no longer do that.

Under Florida's law, however, that person could be running and be in a car and you can say, "Gimme that sniper rifle" and still take them out no matter how far they've ran.

Technically, as terrible a case as this is, the facts will have to be determined, but the law may very well be on Zimmerman's side.



Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Brittain33 on April 13, 2012, 02:53:58 PM
Technically, as terrible a case as this is, the facts will have to be determined, but the law may very well be on Zimmerman's side.

Yes, that's how I feel. With the law being the way it is, it's easy to get away with killing people, and the verdict will reflect that.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Bacon King on April 13, 2012, 03:12:28 PM
A bit surprised...I'd thought they would've gone for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Thoughts?

As to why not VM, it seemed too "deliberate" in the sense of a rather calm and measured approach to it all by the Z man, assuming there is no evidence of an "unexpected" physical altercation alleged by Zimmerman.

Go re-read the Florida statute, Torie.  By your post, it implies that you haven't.  :)

I didn't. Does it have a curve ball in it?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0782/0782ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2011&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20782

If Zimmerman is telling the truth, I think it would be justifiable under this statute:


782.02 Justifiable use of deadly force.—The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.02.html

I'm pretty sure the duty to retreat still applies, no? Here's further reading, for when it doesn't:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: Ogre Mage on April 15, 2012, 02:41:44 PM
The whole incident just seemed strange, calling a press conference to tell reporters they are no longer representing their client.  I suspect the fact they no longer seemed to know their client's whereabouts was alarming to Angela Corey.

Quote

– Speaking to Fox News' Sean Hannity by phone, apparently off the record.

What?  Zimmerman was not in contact with his attorneys but was willing to talk with Faux News?

You trying to get a job at NBC?

The very next line says:

Quote
– Calling the special prosecutor's office directly,

Which part of the bolded statement is not clear?  Since you seem so sympathetic to Zimmerman's position, perhaps you can explain why he stopped communicating with his legal counsel but was willing to talk with Sean Hannity.
Wannabe NBC producer contends that Angela Corey would be alarmed that the attorneys didn't know where Zimmerman was; but Zimmerman had called her office.

BTW, Zimmerman's new lawyer suggested that it was quite unusual for a pair of lawyers to announce they weren't going to represent Zimmerman any more, and then talk to the press for another hour.

Maybe Angela Corey was concerned that she was looking at the possibility of a murder conviction overturned on grounds of incompetent legal defense.

I see you conveniently edited out the full text of what I had posted and have sunk to referring to me as a "wannabe NBC producer" which is typical trollish behavior.  That is very much like something one would see on Faux News.

The attorneys statements essentially say that Zimmerman had gone rogue and they do not know where he is or what he is doing (since he is not following their instructions).  They realized they needed to absolve themselves of responsibility for his actions.  

Quote
"He has gone on his own. I don't know what he's doing or who he's talking to," Sonner said. "... “I cannot represent a client who doesn’t stay in contact with me.”

It is not a coincidence that Corey arrested Zimmerman exactly one day after this statement was made.


Title: Re: Zimmerman charged with Second Degree Murder
Post by: jimrtex on April 16, 2012, 11:01:25 AM
Wannabe NBC producer contends that Angela Corey would be alarmed that the attorneys didn't know where Zimmerman was; but Zimmerman had called her office.

BTW, Zimmerman's new lawyer suggested that it was quite unusual for a pair of lawyers to announce they weren't going to represent Zimmerman any more, and then talk to the press for another hour.

Maybe Angela Corey was concerned that she was looking at the possibility of a murder conviction overturned on grounds of incompetent legal defense.
The attorneys statements essentially say that Zimmerman had gone rogue and they do not know where he is or what he is doing (since he is not following their instructions).  They realized they needed to absolve themselves of responsibility for his actions.  

Quote
"He has gone on his own. I don't know what he's doing or who he's talking to," Sonner said. "... “I cannot represent a client who doesn’t stay in contact with me.”

It is not a coincidence that Corey arrested Zimmerman exactly one day after this statement was made.
Corey filed charges, and Zimmerman voluntarily surrendered the same day, with new competent counsel.

Zimmerman realized he was getting crap representation, and probably called Corey saying he was willing to testify before a grand jury, or to talk to her investigators, or surrender if she charged him with a crime.

Remember, he didn't have a lawyer when he talked to the police the night of the shooting or the day after when he did the walk through.

She told him he needed a lawyer, and likely that he needed a good one, that she was not willing to risk getting a conviction overturned based on ineffective legal representation.   

While it is unlikely that she would make a comment on Sonner specifically, that someone would talk to the press for an hour about their former client really brings into question their professional ethics.