Talk Elections

General Discussion => Religion & Philosophy => Topic started by: they don't love you like i love you on May 06, 2012, 01:30:57 PM



Title: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 06, 2012, 01:30:57 PM
It's kind of interesting because it's hard to pin down. I used to think it was a liberal/conservative thing (back when my point of comparison was mostly just rural Lutheran churches only olds go to and more modern family-oriented ones like where my parents go to now), but I've seen in videos of megachurches and even Assembly of God services and on their websites most people are wearing jeans. Similarly when I was returning this morning I passed a church near me which is one of the most blatantly liberal ones in the state (to where they are quite active in opposing the anti-gay marriage amendment and hosting speakers against it) and noticed people leaving, most of whom were somewhat formally dressed and a group of olds crossing the street in front of me who were all super-formal and the men had ties and everything. And they are way more theologically liberal than most churches to to the point of not preaching belief in a physical Resurrection, which no one would do at where I went. Yet they also host another smaller church in the afternoon that is just as liberal politically but theologically more conservative that I've had some involvement with, and no one there dresses up. And if you look up an Episcopal cathedral on YouTube you'll see they tend formal, but so do Mormons and I'm sure that a LCMS church would be way more formal than any ELCA one, and as I mentioned a few weeks ago most people were pretty dressed up at my cousin's first communion in a Catholic church in a conservative suburb, so you can't say it's correlated with theologically liberalism either.

So what is the correlation? It almost seems arbitrary in regards to political and/or theological liberalism/conservatism.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: The Mikado on May 06, 2012, 03:07:58 PM
It's more high church/low church than liberal/conservative.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 06, 2012, 03:32:50 PM
I always wear a tie to church- what does that mean then?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 06, 2012, 03:48:06 PM
I always wear a tie to church- what does that mean then?

It means you dishonor and disrespect God.

(OK I don't actually think that, but I know people who do.)*

What it actually means: You have crappy taste in fashion and a mindset over 30 years older than you actually are.

*But I will admit their reasoning makes a lot of sense, it can put focus on the individual, it can be to exclusion of those poor or who aren't comfortable dressing up as such, it's a shallow human-centric way of thinking, etc.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on May 06, 2012, 04:26:37 PM
Taking their religion seriously (in general, of course) from a philosophical standpoint (relatively speaking).


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 06, 2012, 05:51:58 PM
I always wear a tie to church- what does that mean then?

It means you dishonor and disrespect God.

(OK I don't actually think that, but I know people who do.)*

What it actually means: You have crappy taste in fashion and a mindset over 30 years older than you actually are.

*But I will admit their reasoning makes a lot of sense, it can put focus on the individual, it can be to exclusion of those poor or who aren't comfortable dressing up as such, it's a shallow human-centric way of thinking, etc.

But I like the way ties look! Have you looked at GQ lately?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 06, 2012, 10:06:56 PM
As I've said many times, I would only wear a tie "ironically", and I don't even do that because to do so I'd have to both own and a tie and know how to tie one. There's a guy in the worship band who does that quite frequently, the only person at church I see wearing a tie.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on May 06, 2012, 11:13:29 PM
how long the congregation has existed is a strong correlate.  Not many churches established before the late sixties are going to be full of people wearing t-shirts.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 06, 2012, 11:25:11 PM
how long the congregation has existed is a strong correlate.  Not many churches established before the late sixties are going to be full of people wearing t-shirts.

Central Lutheran in downtown Minneapolis has been around for quite awhile, though today they participate in the City Pages "church ads" page that they run before Christmas and Easter and have a late Saturday afternoon service with the whole premise that you can both go to church and go clubbing downtown so those might work toward it being an exception.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 07, 2012, 12:33:29 AM
As I've said many times, I would only wear a tie "ironically", and I don't even do that because to do so I'd have to both own and a tie and know how to tie one. There's a guy in the worship band who does that quite frequently, the only person at church I see wearing a tie.

How many times must I quote this post?

BRTD, you are an HP. Those who lambaste ties and suits are at the vanguard of the destruction of society. They are the hallmarks of civilization, of culture, and you hold a contempt for them matched only by my approbatory fervor. I respect you, but I can never like you as long as that remains your position.

()

Now this is an FF.

()

And so is this guy. It also helps the tailor is called- well, what do you think?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 07, 2012, 12:39:32 AM
You remind of this guy I used to work with who would constantly dress like that to work just to irritate the management.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 07, 2012, 12:46:26 AM
You remind of this guy I used to work with who would constantly dress like that to work just to irritate the management.

In three piece suits? Super mega FF- but wait, how well fitting were they? What were they like? Peak lapel, or notch? Double or single breasted? Three-roll-two or just plain three or two button? Single or double vented? French or barrel cuffs?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: useful idiot on May 07, 2012, 11:18:53 AM
Is Barack Obama dishonoring and disrespecting the American people when he gives a speech in a suit and tie? Is he doing it to be ironic? Are lawyers being ironic when they do it in a courtroom and really trying to disrespect the judge?

It's a sign of respect and reverence in our culture. It's not the same for every culture, obviously, but in ours the suit and tie represent the seriousness of whatever occasion we don them for. Plenty of people wear jeans to my church (most wear them or some kind of khaki/polo/collared shirt combo). Nobody criticizes them for doing so, and likewise I've never heard any 20 year old get on someone's case for wearing a suit. I would also say that you can hardly judge someone's political or theological liberalism based on their attire on a Sunday. In fact, more liberal SBC churches are often more formal than the conservative ones, especially in Virginia. In other words, it really is a non-issue.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 08, 2012, 11:10:28 AM
You remind of this guy I used to work with who would constantly dress like that to work just to irritate the management.

In three piece suits? Super mega FF- but wait, how well fitting were they? What were they like? Peak lapel, or notch? Double or single breasted? Three-roll-two or just plain three or two button? Single or double vented? French or barrel cuffs?

You think I have a clue what this stuff is?

Is Barack Obama dishonoring and disrespecting the American people when he gives a speech in a suit and tie? Is he doing it to be ironic? Are lawyers being ironic when they do it in a courtroom and really trying to disrespect the judge?

It's a sign of respect and reverence in our culture. It's not the same for every culture, obviously, but in ours the suit and tie represent the seriousness of whatever occasion we don them for. Plenty of people wear jeans to my church (most wear them or some kind of khaki/polo/collared shirt combo). Nobody criticizes them for doing so, and likewise I've never heard any 20 year old get on someone's case for wearing a suit. I would also say that you can hardly judge someone's political or theological liberalism based on their attire on a Sunday. In fact, more liberal SBC churches are often more formal than the conservative ones, especially in Virginia. In other words, it really is a non-issue.

Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 08, 2012, 02:16:54 PM
You remind of this guy I used to work with who would constantly dress like that to work just to irritate the management.

In three piece suits? Super mega FF- but wait, how well fitting were they? What were they like? Peak lapel, or notch? Double or single breasted? Three-roll-two or just plain three or two button? Single or double vented? French or barrel cuffs?

You think I have a clue what this stuff is?

Damn it! I wrote that in the hope you'd say just that and had a whole clever comeback planned, but I forgot what it was!


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on May 08, 2012, 02:41:42 PM
Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

If so that doesn't really reflect well on liberalism, does it, since what you're describing sounds more like a 'lazy person' thing.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 08, 2012, 09:47:52 PM
Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

If so that doesn't really reflect well on liberalism, does it, since what you're describing sounds more like a 'lazy person' thing.

Booking or playing in these shows requires a hell of a lot more work than putting on a tie. Playing can be quite physically exhausting.

This also begs the question why anyone would wear a three piece suit to a hardcore show in the first place...


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on May 08, 2012, 10:50:31 PM
Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

If so that doesn't really reflect well on liberalism, does it, since what you're describing sounds more like a 'lazy person' thing.

Booking or playing in these shows requires a hell of a lot more work than putting on a tie. Playing can be quite physically exhausting.

This also begs the question why anyone would wear a three piece suit to a hardcore show in the first place...

Well, that was a little snide and I'm sorry, but I'm concerned that you conflate church with hardcore shows. Then again, that might be a High/Low Church thing. Or liturgical/charismatic, or both.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 08, 2012, 11:27:06 PM
Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

If so that doesn't really reflect well on liberalism, does it, since what you're describing sounds more like a 'lazy person' thing.

Booking or playing in these shows requires a hell of a lot more work than putting on a tie. Playing can be quite physically exhausting.

This also begs the question why anyone would wear a three piece suit to a hardcore show in the first place...

Well, that was a little snide and I'm sorry, but I'm concerned that you conflate church with hardcore shows. Then again, that might be a High/Low Church thing. Or liturgical/charismatic, or both.

Hey no problem just note the people in this video can hardly be accused of being "lazy". Note the water jug on the stage. Those are commonly there for a reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_i0OQKjUA

And look at how sweaty this guy gets. Don't think that ever happens to someone at a high church service. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qExhuRNrnFQ

And what's the difference between church and a Christian hardcore show?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 09, 2012, 09:14:44 AM
Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges
-Hipster scarves
-Piercings anywhere than the ears
-Band shirt
-Hoodie
-Tattoos over an entire arm
-Large chestpiece or back tattoos.
-Lower back tattoo ("Tramp stamp")

I once knew a Christian hardcore girl with a Bible verse for the last one.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: patrick1 on May 09, 2012, 09:40:04 AM
Mods: Can we get a fashion sub-board for BRTD? 

BRTD, I also wouldnt necessarily conflate people's dress for a first Holy Communion to their normal church attire. Most people on special events step up their dress as a sign of respect and as a symbol that it is indeed a special occasion.  This is really the norm across most cultures and religions. This is also why most people don't dress like they just rolled out of bed when they go to church.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 09, 2012, 09:51:54 AM
Mods: Can we get a fashion sub-board for BRTD?

Oh, the death points I'd rack up...


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 09, 2012, 10:51:52 AM
BRTD, I also wouldnt necessarily conflate people's dress for a first Holy Communion to their normal church attire. Most people on special events step up their dress as a sign of respect and as a symbol that it is indeed a special occasion.  This is really the norm across most cultures and religions.

But when I got baptized and we also did our infant dedications, the only people dressed up were olds who obviously weren't normal attendees and were mostly family of the parents of the babies being dedicated. The parents and pastors (and of course me) were still all as casual as normal.

This is also why most people don't dress like they just rolled out of bed when they go to church.

I'd dispute the "most" in the modern day. It's not 50 years ago.



Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: patrick1 on May 09, 2012, 11:51:40 AM
BRTD, I also wouldnt necessarily conflate people's dress for a first Holy Communion to their normal church attire. Most people on special events step up their dress as a sign of respect and as a symbol that it is indeed a special occasion.  This is really the norm across most cultures and religions.

But when I got baptized and we also did our infant dedications, the only people dressed up were olds who obviously weren't normal attendees and were mostly family of the parents of the babies being dedicated. The parents and pastors (and of course me) were still all as casual as normal.

This is also why most people don't dress like they just rolled out of bed when they go to church.

I'd dispute the "most" in the modern day. It's not 50 years ago.



Your own life experience is not the baseline for all of humanity.

Just because you and your peers like hardcore shows or go to church in a T shirt does not mean that 1. it matters at all or says anything meaningful about said concert goer or T shirt wearer 2. that anyone else should care  3.  This and the several previous threads or discussions on the matter betray a level of superficiality and seems a conceit.  The, I couldn't bother to get dressed up, is, to me at least, tiresome and immature.  It is all a pose.  Ive seen so many "scene" people who likely spent hours on their messy hair. 

Further, By dwelling on this so much it is all quite obvious that you intensely care on what you and others are wearing.  Hence, my sarcastic suggestion that you get your own fashion sub board.  The fact that you are concentrating so much on what others around you are wearing rather than the message you are receiving makes you no better than the blue haired old ladies who snicker at another woman's scandalous top or skirt.

Lastly man, you are an old! I'd hope that obsessing over a little clique and again its conceits (your own uniform and soundtrack) is something most people leave behind in high school or latest college.  Wear and listen to what you like  but don't think that it says something really transcendental about you as a person. I'm glad you have found a group of people you like to worship with, however,  the costume you do it in is really insignificant.

So to answer your OP, nothing.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on May 09, 2012, 12:00:53 PM
Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges

I don't know what these are, so no.

Quote
-Hipster scarves

Yes.

Quote
-Piercings anywhere than the ears

No.

Quote
-Band shirt

Yes.

Quote
-Hoodie

Yes, but not common.

Quote
-Tattoos over an entire arm

Yes, but VERY uncommon. There's I think one guy who is or once was a long-haul trucker at our church.

Quote
-Large chestpiece or back tattoos.

Not that I know of.

Quote
-Lower back tattoo ("Tramp stamp")

Not that I would ever actually have seen, but I suppose it's possible that such might exist.

Quote
I once knew a Christian hardcore girl with a Bible verse for the last one.

Huh. I wasn't aware that was a thing, but I'm not necessarily surprised.

____

Church is different from a Christian hardcore show because the altar is an axis mundi and the priest is ceremonially marrying Heaven to Earth and Christ to the Church.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 09, 2012, 11:46:09 PM
Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges

I don't know what these are, so no.

Those things the singer of the band in the first video has in his earlobes. For the record I strongly dislike them and will never get them and the fact that your ear lobe will never fully close after them makes them a bad idea alone in my view but...

Quote
-Piercings anywhere than the ears

No.

Hmmm, those are actually pretty mainstream now.

Quote
I once knew a Christian hardcore girl with a Bible verse for the last one.

Huh. I wasn't aware that was a thing, but I'm not necessarily surprised.

Just a girl from South Dakota I saw at a bunch of shows and ran a small distro with her husband, who I think she later separated if not divorced from. I think she lives in Seattle now or somewhere (wow she'd be about 32 today...)

Church is different from a Christian hardcore show because the altar is an axis mundi and the priest is ceremonially marrying Heaven to Earth and Christ to the Church.

Yep, liturgical/charismatic difference. Mind you we don't even have an altar (or a priest for that matter.) and the venue even looks like a show space except for the cross on the back wall (and since it already has a great sound system set up actually would be an awesome venue, the only reason I haven't asked about renting out the place for bookings is because it's hard to get people to shows in NE Minneapolis unless the band is trendy or alcohol is being served)

BRTD, I also wouldnt necessarily conflate people's dress for a first Holy Communion to their normal church attire. Most people on special events step up their dress as a sign of respect and as a symbol that it is indeed a special occasion.  This is really the norm across most cultures and religions.

But when I got baptized and we also did our infant dedications, the only people dressed up were olds who obviously weren't normal attendees and were mostly family of the parents of the babies being dedicated. The parents and pastors (and of course me) were still all as casual as normal.

This is also why most people don't dress like they just rolled out of bed when they go to church.

I'd dispute the "most" in the modern day. It's not 50 years ago.



Your own life experience is not the baseline for all of humanity.

Just because you and your peers like hardcore shows or go to church in a T shirt does not mean that 1. it matters at all or says anything meaningful about said concert goer or T shirt wearer 2. that anyone else should care  3.  This and the several previous threads or discussions on the matter betray a level of superficiality and seems a conceit.  The, I couldn't bother to get dressed up, is, to me at least, tiresome and immature.  It is all a pose.  Ive seen so many "scene" people who likely spent hours on their messy hair. 

Further, By dwelling on this so much it is all quite obvious that you intensely care on what you and others are wearing.  Hence, my sarcastic suggestion that you get your own fashion sub board.  The fact that you are concentrating so much on what others around you are wearing rather than the message you are receiving makes you no better than the blue haired old ladies who snicker at another woman's scandalous top or skirt.

Lastly man, you are an old! I'd hope that obsessing over a little clique and again its conceits (your own uniform and soundtrack) is something most people leave behind in high school or latest college.  Wear and listen to what you like  but don't think that it says something really transcendental about you as a person. I'm glad you have found a group of people you like to worship with, however,  the costume you do it in is really insignificant.

So to answer your OP, nothing.

Look this has always been a quirk of mine. I have always been anti-formal dress, and I even boycotted some school events where semi-formal was at least "encouraged". I'll admit you are right in that I might be giving a bit too much focus to this sort of thing. Mind you I kind of disapprove of any type of "dressing up" such as the people you are mentioning and stupid looking sports fans the cameras love to point out in the stands.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: muon2 on May 11, 2012, 10:47:34 PM
Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges
-Hipster scarves
-Piercings anywhere than the ears
-Band shirt
-Hoodie
-Tattoos over an entire arm
-Large chestpiece or back tattoos.
-Lower back tattoo ("Tramp stamp")

I once knew a Christian hardcore girl with a Bible verse for the last one.

When I go with my family you would see me arrive in a jacket and tie and my son in a band shirt or hoodie. Nothing wrong with that from my perspective.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on May 16, 2012, 04:44:56 PM
Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges
-Hipster scarves
-Piercings anywhere than the ears
-Band shirt
-Hoodie
-Tattoos over an entire arm
-Large chestpiece or back tattoos.
-Lower back tattoo ("Tramp stamp")

I once knew a Christian hardcore girl with a Bible verse for the last one.

When I go with my family you would see me arrive in a jacket and tie and my son in a band shirt or hoodie. Nothing wrong with that from my perspective.

Yeah, there are families like that at my church too (sometimes even with the generations reversed!).


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 17, 2012, 12:31:23 AM
Do you ever see people listening to iPods entering/leaving? (Or using iPods/phones to look up Bible verses)


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 12:43:47 AM
I always thought it was simply that you save your best for church out of respect for its standing in your life. Church should be the most important thing in your life, so it deserves your best clothing.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 17, 2012, 12:54:03 AM
By that logic I should've dressed more formally than normal when I was at Dude Fest.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 12:55:41 AM
By that logic I should've dressed more formally than normal when I was at Dude Fest.

I will not discuss anything related to that.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 17, 2012, 01:15:20 AM
Just pointing out the logical conclusion of that. Here's another example: Do people with Super Bowl tickets dress up formally to the stadium stands?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Joe Republic on May 17, 2012, 01:23:19 AM
That you equate your churchgoing with a music festival or a football game says quite a lot about you.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 17, 2012, 09:57:37 AM
Well all of them are quite similar. People waving their hands, jumping up and down, yelling loudly, etc.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 10:05:42 AM
Well all of them are quite similar. People waving their hands, jumping up and down, yelling loudly, etc.

And yet in the mess that is BRTD's logic, there are the occasional specks of poignancy that never cease to surprise me.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: 7,052,770 on May 20, 2012, 11:53:46 AM
I think about religion in the same vein that I think about sports, so the metaphor works.  Both have extreme blind loyalty that defies rationality.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 20, 2012, 01:48:01 PM
I think about religion in the same vein that I think about sports, so the metaphor works.  Both have extreme blind loyalty that defies rationality.

So that explains why if you lived here you'd be more likely to go to a Catholic church than one where I know the lead pastor who has an anti-gay marriage ban bumper sticker on his car. Well that and the dislike of handraising.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: patrick1 on May 20, 2012, 04:31:23 PM
I think about religion in the same vein that I think about sports, so the metaphor works.  Both have extreme blind loyalty that defies rationality.

So that explains why if you lived here you'd be more likely to go to a Catholic church than one where I know the lead pastor who has an anti-gay marriage ban bumper sticker on his car. Well that and the dislike of handraising.

I find that many Hispanic congregants hold hands during the Our Father and then raise them up together during the doxology: For thine is the kingdom... I'm with Harry, even this makes me uncomfortable.  I prefer staid worship :)


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: 7,052,770 on May 20, 2012, 07:26:30 PM
I think about religion in the same vein that I think about sports, so the metaphor works.  Both have extreme blind loyalty that defies rationality.

So that explains why if you lived here you'd be more likely to go to a Catholic church than one where I know the lead pastor who has an anti-gay marriage ban bumper sticker on his car. Well that and the dislike of handraising.

I find that many Hispanic congregants hold hands during the Our Father and then raise them up together during the doxology: For thine is the kingdom... I'm with Harry, even this makes me uncomfortable.  I prefer staid worship :)

A lot of whites do that here too, but I don't join in.  No interest in holding hands with a stranger.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 21, 2012, 06:15:52 PM
....that happened in my row at my cousin's first communion and I didn't have a problem with it nor did it strike me as odd. And I never found it odd at more charismatic Lutheran services where it's fairly common.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 23, 2012, 10:36:59 PM
Here's proof it's not quite a high/low church thing either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BOFYmcHEIc

Although if you draw a political compass style high/low axis and liberal/conservative axis it's safe to say the liberal/low corner will be overwhelmingly casual and the high/conservative corner overwhelmingly formal, so maybe a combo of the two.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: TJ in Oregon on May 23, 2012, 11:15:50 PM
It's probably correllated to age, income level, "high church", and political conservativism in some general sense.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Joe Biden 2020 on May 25, 2012, 12:32:19 AM
Let me toss in my two cents (maybe worth but a cent and a half), but here goes:

I normally don't dress up for church just because I'm lazy.  Whenever I feel the energy, I will wear a suit and tie, especially on Easter, Fourth of July, and Christmas.  I actually enjoy wearing suits even more so than jeans and t-shirts.  If it weren't so darn expensive to buy several suits, I would enjoy a job as a TV News Reporter who wear suits by default.  They make me feel better about myself.

That said, I do not perceive wearing a suit as a necessity in church.  God doesn't care about what you wear on the outside, He cares more about what you look like on the inside.  His aim is to change people from the inside out, not the outside in like religion does.

At my small, Southern Baptist church, we do have one lady (my cousin) who has tattoos all over her arms, neck, and back.  She barely has any blank skin left.  I've seen her in a two-piece bathing suit and she is still covered all over, too.  The older people of my church don't care for it, but they do not condemn it.

My pastor wears a collared polo and khakis.  My music minister/youth minister will usually wear the same, but will once in a while put on a suit with a maroon shirt and a black tie.

Again, I really could care less what people wear in church, unless they are wearing a bathing suit or otherwise leaving little to the imagination.  I prefer suits for men and dresses for the ladies, but that's not a requirement in my opinion.

I know I am an old, because I prefer the older, slower hymns as opposed to the newer, faster contemporary.  *Watches BRTD cringe at the thought of older, slower hymns*


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on May 25, 2012, 12:35:12 AM
Here's the part that stuck out to me:

Let me toss in my two cents (maybe worth but a cent and a half), but here goes:

I normally don't dress up for church just because I'm lazy.  Whenever I feel the energy, I will wear a suit and tie, especially on Easter, Fourth of July, and Christmas.  I actually enjoy wearing suits even more so than jeans and t-shirts.  If it weren't so darn expensive to buy several suits, I would enjoy a job as a TV News Reporter who wear suits by default.  They make me feel better about myself.

That said, I do not perceive wearing a suit as a necessity in church.  God doesn't care about what you wear on the outside, He cares more about what you look like on the inside.  His aim is to change people from the inside out, not the outside in like religion does.

At my small, Southern Baptist church, we do have one lady (my cousin) who has tattoos all over her arms, neck, and back.  She barely has any blank skin left.  I've seen her in a two-piece bathing suit and she is still covered all over, too.  The older people of my church don't care for it, but they do not condemn it.

My pastor wears a collared polo and khakis.  My music minister/youth minister will usually wear the same, but will once in a while put on a suit with a maroon shirt and a black tie.

Again, I really could care less what people wear in church, unless they are wearing a bathing suit or otherwise leaving little to the imagination.  I prefer suits for men and dresses for the ladies, but that's not a requirement in my opinion.

I know I am an old, because I prefer the older, slower hymns as opposed to the newer, faster contemporary.  *Watches BRTD cringe at the thought of older, slower hymns*

Since when is the Fourth of July a religious holiday?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Joe Biden 2020 on May 25, 2012, 12:42:28 AM
Here's the part that stuck out to me:

Let me toss in my two cents (maybe worth but a cent and a half), but here goes:

I normally don't dress up for church just because I'm lazy.  Whenever I feel the energy, I will wear a suit and tie, especially on Easter, Fourth of July, and Christmas.  I actually enjoy wearing suits even more so than jeans and t-shirts.  If it weren't so darn expensive to buy several suits, I would enjoy a job as a TV News Reporter who wear suits by default.  They make me feel better about myself.

That said, I do not perceive wearing a suit as a necessity in church.  God doesn't care about what you wear on the outside, He cares more about what you look like on the inside.  His aim is to change people from the inside out, not the outside in like religion does.

At my small, Southern Baptist church, we do have one lady (my cousin) who has tattoos all over her arms, neck, and back.  She barely has any blank skin left.  I've seen her in a two-piece bathing suit and she is still covered all over, too.  The older people of my church don't care for it, but they do not condemn it.

My pastor wears a collared polo and khakis.  My music minister/youth minister will usually wear the same, but will once in a while put on a suit with a maroon shirt and a black tie.

Again, I really could care less what people wear in church, unless they are wearing a bathing suit or otherwise leaving little to the imagination.  I prefer suits for men and dresses for the ladies, but that's not a requirement in my opinion.

I know I am an old, because I prefer the older, slower hymns as opposed to the newer, faster contemporary.  *Watches BRTD cringe at the thought of older, slower hymns*

Since when is the Fourth of July a religious holiday?

It is a Christian holiday in the fact that it is because Christ died for us and His grace that our forefathers were able to wrestle our freedom out of the hands of the British Crown and it's because our men and women have died continue to die protecting that freedom that we are able to worship freely without fear of the government coming in and carting off us to jail or killing us (such is the case in China and many nations in the Middle East).  So, it is mandatory we give thanks to the LORD on Memorial Day and Independence Day, as well.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on May 25, 2012, 09:35:08 AM
Here's the part that stuck out to me:

Let me toss in my two cents (maybe worth but a cent and a half), but here goes:

I normally don't dress up for church just because I'm lazy.  Whenever I feel the energy, I will wear a suit and tie, especially on Easter, Fourth of July, and Christmas.  I actually enjoy wearing suits even more so than jeans and t-shirts.  If it weren't so darn expensive to buy several suits, I would enjoy a job as a TV News Reporter who wear suits by default.  They make me feel better about myself.

That said, I do not perceive wearing a suit as a necessity in church.  God doesn't care about what you wear on the outside, He cares more about what you look like on the inside.  His aim is to change people from the inside out, not the outside in like religion does.

At my small, Southern Baptist church, we do have one lady (my cousin) who has tattoos all over her arms, neck, and back.  She barely has any blank skin left.  I've seen her in a two-piece bathing suit and she is still covered all over, too.  The older people of my church don't care for it, but they do not condemn it.

My pastor wears a collared polo and khakis.  My music minister/youth minister will usually wear the same, but will once in a while put on a suit with a maroon shirt and a black tie.

Again, I really could care less what people wear in church, unless they are wearing a bathing suit or otherwise leaving little to the imagination.  I prefer suits for men and dresses for the ladies, but that's not a requirement in my opinion.

I know I am an old, because I prefer the older, slower hymns as opposed to the newer, faster contemporary.  *Watches BRTD cringe at the thought of older, slower hymns*

Since when is the Fourth of July a religious holiday?

It is a Christian holiday in the fact that it is because Christ died for us and His grace that our forefathers were able to wrestle our freedom out of the hands of the British Crown and it's because our men and women have died continue to die protecting that freedom that we are able to worship freely without fear of the government coming in and carting off us to jail or killing us (such is the case in China and many nations in the Middle East).  So, it is mandatory we give thanks to the LORD on Memorial Day and Independence Day, as well.

Whatdafuk?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Joe Biden 2020 on May 25, 2012, 11:37:45 AM
Here's the part that stuck out to me:

Let me toss in my two cents (maybe worth but a cent and a half), but here goes:

I normally don't dress up for church just because I'm lazy.  Whenever I feel the energy, I will wear a suit and tie, especially on Easter, Fourth of July, and Christmas.  I actually enjoy wearing suits even more so than jeans and t-shirts.  If it weren't so darn expensive to buy several suits, I would enjoy a job as a TV News Reporter who wear suits by default.  They make me feel better about myself.

That said, I do not perceive wearing a suit as a necessity in church.  God doesn't care about what you wear on the outside, He cares more about what you look like on the inside.  His aim is to change people from the inside out, not the outside in like religion does.

At my small, Southern Baptist church, we do have one lady (my cousin) who has tattoos all over her arms, neck, and back.  She barely has any blank skin left.  I've seen her in a two-piece bathing suit and she is still covered all over, too.  The older people of my church don't care for it, but they do not condemn it.

My pastor wears a collared polo and khakis.  My music minister/youth minister will usually wear the same, but will once in a while put on a suit with a maroon shirt and a black tie.

Again, I really could care less what people wear in church, unless they are wearing a bathing suit or otherwise leaving little to the imagination.  I prefer suits for men and dresses for the ladies, but that's not a requirement in my opinion.

I know I am an old, because I prefer the older, slower hymns as opposed to the newer, faster contemporary.  *Watches BRTD cringe at the thought of older, slower hymns*

Since when is the Fourth of July a religious holiday?

It is a Christian holiday in the fact that it is because Christ died for us and His grace that our forefathers were able to wrestle our freedom out of the hands of the British Crown and it's because our men and women have died continue to die protecting that freedom that we are able to worship freely without fear of the government coming in and carting off us to jail or killing us (such is the case in China and many nations in the Middle East).  So, it is mandatory we give thanks to the LORD on Memorial Day and Independence Day, as well.

Whatdafuk?

Yes, indeed!  In fact, it is said in our church that EVERY day of the year is THANKSGIVING DAY.  The turkey only happens on one of those days, but we are to constantly give thanks to the LORD because He alone is the author of everything good in our life.  Without Him nothing would be possible.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 26, 2012, 08:59:14 AM
Here's proof it's not quite a high/low church thing either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BOFYmcHEIc

Although if you draw a political compass style high/low axis and liberal/conservative axis it's safe to say the liberal/low corner will be overwhelmingly casual and the high/conservative corner overwhelmingly formal, so maybe a combo of the two.

What the hell is this?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on April 05, 2014, 12:05:15 AM
Here's proof it's not quite a high/low church thing either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BOFYmcHEIc

Although if you draw a political compass style high/low axis and liberal/conservative axis it's safe to say the liberal/low corner will be overwhelmingly casual and the high/conservative corner overwhelmingly formal, so maybe a combo of the two.

What the hell is this?

I still want to know... what is this heresy?


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Randy Bobandy on April 05, 2014, 09:09:32 AM
It makes sense that the Christian God would care about people's fashion sense.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: DemPGH on April 05, 2014, 10:06:40 AM
I think it boils down to the fact that church, and certainly what you could call church culture, is very, very close to business culture, actually. So to dress up for church, or to at least go "business casual," and I'm not sure if that term is still popular or not, makes sense.

In any event, preferences like attire are always reflective of the culture that sinks itself into any organized activity, church being one.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: justfollowingtheelections on April 25, 2014, 09:21:02 PM
It's kind of interesting because it's hard to pin down. I used to think it was a liberal/conservative thing (back when my point of comparison was mostly just rural Lutheran churches only olds go to and more modern family-oriented ones like where my parents go to now), but I've seen in videos of megachurches and even Assembly of God services and on their websites most people are wearing jeans. Similarly when I was returning this morning I passed a church near me which is one of the most blatantly liberal ones in the state (to where they are quite active in opposing the anti-gay marriage amendment and hosting speakers against it) and noticed people leaving, most of whom were somewhat formally dressed and a group of olds crossing the street in front of me who were all super-formal and the men had ties and everything. And they are way more theologically liberal than most churches to to the point of not preaching belief in a physical Resurrection, which no one would do at where I went. Yet they also host another smaller church in the afternoon that is just as liberal politically but theologically more conservative that I've had some involvement with, and no one there dresses up. And if you look up an Episcopal cathedral on YouTube you'll see they tend formal, but so do Mormons and I'm sure that a LCMS church would be way more formal than any ELCA one, and as I mentioned a few weeks ago most people were pretty dressed up at my cousin's first communion in a Catholic church in a conservative suburb, so you can't say it's correlated with theologically liberalism either.

So what is the correlation? It almost seems arbitrary in regards to political and/or theological liberalism/conservatism.

I think traditionally it has more to do with people doing menial labor, working long hours and church being one of the few, if only, opportunity every week to interact with others in their community at a more personal level, and they therefore felt the need to be more presentable.

I guess one of the reasons church attendance is so low in societies with a high percentage of white collar workers is because they have to look their best every morning when they go to work and what the church offered them as members of the community simply doesn't have the same appeal anymore.  


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald on April 25, 2014, 09:29:06 PM
Another thing is that the Romans, in order to try and keep out Jews from christianity, madated the wearing of togas in Church so as to keep out poor Jews. This tradition has continued to morph into dressing formally for church.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: DC Al Fine on April 25, 2014, 09:56:34 PM
I guess one of the reasons church attendance is so low in societies with a high percentage of white collar workers is because they have to look their best every morning when they go to work and what the church offered them as members of the community simply doesn't have the same appeal anymore.  

Not sure about white vs blue collar, but IIRC religious participation tends to increase somewhat with income, all else equal.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: CatoMinor on April 29, 2014, 10:32:27 PM
It's one of the unwritten rules in the Bible, along with:

-Close eyes when praying
-Speaking in a dead form of English
-holding hands together while praying

------specific to the culture of where I go to church-----

-Saying "Lord God" or "Father God" after like literally every other word almost during a prayer.
-Coffee blacker than the center of a black hole.
-Beards
-Always have a knife on you.
-Hipster dresscode


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 29, 2014, 10:55:25 PM
It's one of the unwritten rules in the Bible, along with:

-Close eyes when praying
-Speaking in a dead form of English
-holding hands together while praying

------specific to the culture of where I go to church-----

-Saying "Lord God" or "Father God" after like literally every other word almost during a prayer.
-Coffee blacker than the center of a black hole.
-Beards
-Always have a knife on you.
-Hipster dresscode


What?  No "Lord Jesus" or "Christ Jesus" or the like?  What are they, Unitarians? ;) Probably not, tho.  Most Unitarians would throw in a "Mother Goddess" or two as well.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: CatoMinor on April 30, 2014, 08:32:33 AM
It's one of the unwritten rules in the Bible, along with:

-Close eyes when praying
-Speaking in a dead form of English
-holding hands together while praying

------specific to the culture of where I go to church-----

-Saying "Lord God" or "Father God" after like literally every other word almost during a prayer.
-Coffee blacker than the center of a black hole.
-Beards
-Always have a knife on you.
-Hipster dresscode


What?  No "Lord Jesus" or "Christ Jesus" or the like?  What are they, Unitarians? ;) Probably not, tho.  Most Unitarians would throw in a "Mother Goddess" or two as well.

Far from Unitarian, and last I checked it was aMEN, not aWOMAN. :P


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on June 15, 2014, 05:20:32 PM
Church today was actually disgustingly New Rite. The music all sounded like some jazz club and they were actually clapping during the dismissal. I just left at that point. It was completely inappropriate and lacked solemnity. The only nice thing about it was the fact the deacon was smartly dressed in a traditional cassock and surplice, which was right up my alley.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on June 16, 2014, 08:55:50 AM
Furthermore, I will admit some displeasure at seeing, well, uh, uncovered shoulders at church. It's not something I take exception to normally, not even at church, but I happened to be standing in front of the choir and noticed some choristers in dresses were wearing jackets or cardigans and I saw the contrast. It's strange, I'll admit, even my father asked if I had joined the Taliban when I told him.

No doubt, I'd be outright disgusted if I were to see mens' shoulders in church. I've never liked seeing t-shirts in church but I've become inured to them, although I noticed them after this and was bothered by it.

It's strange, noticing all this. I'm inclined to think I do now because mass at college is so much more... restrained. I think it has to do with the sort of college student who attends mass, particularly at a school like mine, which would lend itself to a more liturgically conservative environment.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: DC Al Fine on June 17, 2014, 06:21:17 AM
It's strange, noticing all this. I'm inclined to think I do now because mass at college is so much more... restrained. I think it has to do with the sort of college student who attends mass, particularly at a school like mine, which would lend itself to a more liturgically conservative environment.

That's exactly it. You're usually quite committed if you attend university services. Your standard parish church has far more casual Catholics.


Title: Re: People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?
Post by: Simfan34 on June 17, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
That is what I thought.