Talk Elections

General Politics => Political Debate => Topic started by: Person Man on May 13, 2012, 02:27:03 PM



Title: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Person Man on May 13, 2012, 02:27:03 PM
Well?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: FEMA Camp Administrator on May 13, 2012, 02:40:25 PM
What? I get this is some bated illegal immigration question, but please help me decipher option two.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: dead0man on May 13, 2012, 03:18:12 PM
Could you word these loaded questions better?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Person Man on May 13, 2012, 08:11:53 PM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on May 14, 2012, 12:00:31 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

Especially since the vast majority of these complainers have "had someone else pay for them" some point in their lifetime.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Vosem on May 14, 2012, 05:51:04 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

I suppose Option #1 as a sort of protest vote, since you clearly intend to have people vote for Option #2. Funnily enough, I'm tired of the exact opposite view you're tired of. And I'm tired of Internet incoherency.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Person Man on May 14, 2012, 11:19:50 AM
I guess you could say that option #1 is basically someone paying for a benefit for themselves...paying the state to "take out their trash". Then again, that's "three hots and a cot" for some 'tard, isn't it?

This is probably why capital punishment is so popular amongst antiabortion neoliberal nationalists who would be prinicipally opposed to anything that goes against their priniciples otherwise.

but another argument could be made that you are paying off the trash when you do "pay for someone else".


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: opebo on June 11, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
It  is a bit of a misunderstanding to say that one can 'pay for someone else'.  If you have money beyond subsistence (say in the US anything over 30k-50k/year), you already have a privilege taken from someone else, and certainly all of the vast incomes of the owners are 'paid by someone else' - namely those they control through ownership.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on June 11, 2012, 08:50:18 PM
It  is a bit of a misunderstanding to say that one can 'pay for someone else'.  If you have money beyond subsistence (say in the US anything over 30k-50k/year), you already have a privilege taken from someone else, and certainly all of the vast incomes of the owners are 'paid by someone else' - namely those they control through ownership.

Do you believe that you don't have the right to anything beyond a basic living?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Adam Griffin on June 12, 2012, 02:11:04 PM
It  is a bit of a misunderstanding to say that one can 'pay for someone else'.  If you have money beyond subsistence (say in the US anything over 30k-50k/year), you already have a privilege taken from someone else, and certainly all of the vast incomes of the owners are 'paid by someone else' - namely those they control through ownership.

Do you believe that you don't have the right to anything beyond a basic living?

As opebo said, it's a privilege, not a right. A better question would be: do you believe that everyone has the right to a basic living? When an individual earns or accumulates more than the average individual's salary or net worth, imbalance and inequality are created due to the fact there is now less money available in the economy to provide that basic quality of life to the same number of people. Wealth doesn't grow on trees; while it increases nominally, the increase relative to population increases makes it virtually stagnant.

Modern taxation - specifically progressive taxation - exists to make sure money continues to move around in a capitalist economy without being hoarded by those who can afford to hoard it.

So in summary: No, no one has the right to anything beyond a basic/average living because:

a) there is no way to guarantee that economic right
b) for every person given that economic right, there will be at least one person who will have theirs stripped away


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: opebo on June 12, 2012, 02:23:02 PM
Do you believe that you don't have the right to anything beyond a basic living?

No, I believe that superlative incomes - particularly those derived from ownership, but not only those - are derived from the enslavement of the working class.  The privilege that the upper class receives is in fact control of the majority - the fact that we call it 'income' or 'wealth' is just window-dressing.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on June 13, 2012, 08:04:46 AM
Do you believe that you don't have the right to anything beyond a basic living?

No, I believe that superlative incomes - particularly those derived from ownership, but not only those - are derived from the enslavement of the working class.  The privilege that the upper class receives is in fact control of the majority - the fact that we call it 'income' or 'wealth' is just window-dressing.
Oh, OK. I though you ere talking about the working class taking from the poor.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 01, 2012, 04:58:16 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

Well because paying for a total strangers healthcare or education brings no discernible benefit to the person paying for them. On the other hand, paying to have your trash taken out does benefit the person, or to have someone who is a danger to society executed.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Franzl on July 01, 2012, 10:46:20 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

Well because paying for a total strangers healthcare or education brings no discernible benefit to the person paying for them. On the other hand, paying to have your trash taken out does benefit the person, or to have someone who is a danger to society executed.

Laughably incorrect.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 01, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

Well because paying for a total strangers healthcare or education brings no discernible benefit to the person paying for them. On the other hand, paying to have your trash taken out does benefit the person, or to have someone who is a danger to society executed.

Please back up your fantasy claims with facts on this issue.

Laughably incorrect.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Franzl on July 01, 2012, 10:55:06 AM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 01, 2012, 11:20:46 AM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on July 01, 2012, 12:41:07 PM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 01, 2012, 12:43:25 PM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.

Witty barbs aside, what I mean is I would rather save some additional money for myself, or spend it on a holiday or a car, than pay for the education, healthcare and benefits of slum-dwelling drug addicts.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 01, 2012, 01:12:14 PM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.

Witty barbs aside, what I mean is I would rather save some additional money for myself, or spend it on a holiday or a car, than pay for the education, healthcare and benefits of slum-dwelling drug addicts.

There is no word that can express my feeling on reading this.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 01, 2012, 01:19:23 PM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.

Witty barbs aside, what I mean is I would rather save some additional money for myself, or spend it on a holiday or a car, than pay for the education, healthcare and benefits of slum-dwelling drug addicts.

There is no word that can express my feeling on reading this.

I have done the impossible............Silenced a left-winger.....


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 01, 2012, 01:24:32 PM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.

Witty barbs aside, what I mean is I would rather save some additional money for myself, or spend it on a holiday or a car, than pay for the education, healthcare and benefits of slum-dwelling drug addicts.

There is no word that can express my feeling on reading this.

I have done the impossible............Silenced a left-winger.....

If this is your goal at life, you can legitimately be proud of yourself.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 01, 2012, 01:26:10 PM
I win! :)


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Oakvale on July 01, 2012, 03:00:10 PM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.

Witty barbs aside, what I mean is I would rather save some additional money for myself, or spend it on a holiday or a car, than pay for the education, healthcare and benefits of slum-dwelling drug addicts.

I wonder what it's like experiencing life as an actively awful person.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on July 01, 2012, 04:04:06 PM
I'd personally be happier to spend money to help provide something like healthcare or education than killing or excluding someone from society. However, defense and criminal justice is an essential function of government, whereas charity is not.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 02, 2012, 03:34:15 AM
You can't figure out why having a well educatedvand healthy society is beneficial in general? Really?

It would be. However this almost never turns out to be the case. Also I would rather keep more of my own money and spend it on what I want, instead of what the state wants.

You as a Sovereign Individual (tm) can't pay for an ordered and peaceful society even if you want to.

Witty barbs aside, what I mean is I would rather save some additional money for myself, or spend it on a holiday or a car, than pay for the education, healthcare and benefits of slum-dwelling drug addicts.

I wonder what it's like experiencing life as an actively awful person.

But I'm not. I give money to charities I want to give to. I don't want to spend money on the welfare of people in Brixton or Hackney, only for them to go out and riot. I love the way anyone who questions the effectiveness, or the popularity, of state redistribution of wealth, is evil.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Franzl on July 02, 2012, 03:38:31 AM
That pretty much is evil, yeah.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 02, 2012, 10:58:47 AM

How so?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Oakvale on July 02, 2012, 12:10:02 PM
I... I... I really hope you're about fourteen.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: BritishDixie on July 02, 2012, 12:23:57 PM
I... I... I really hope you're about fourteen.

Sorry to disappoint you, but no. Why?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: opebo on July 02, 2012, 02:10:10 PM
I love the way anyone who questions the effectiveness, or the popularity, of state redistribution of wealth, is evil.

The capitalist state has distributed wealth as it is, BritishDixie, and it is to the State that you owe every chit of privilege you are vouchsafed.  Others merely propose an adjustment.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Darius_Addicus_Gaius on July 27, 2012, 03:14:55 PM
I support welfare for those who are less fortunate but it shouldn't be a way of life. My views are the same for unemployment checks. If you put someone in school for two years instead of paying for them to do nothing, then you'd still save money. Our society has become more lazy. The cashier at the store for my last visit told me he quit his previous job because they made him dust the ceiling fans. My grandfathers did alot more work than that when they were teenagers. This is what the far left has done to our great nation.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: opebo on July 27, 2012, 04:59:12 PM
This is what the far left has done to our great nation.

How could the 'far left' do anything to your precious nation?  It hasn't been in power anywhere in the world in decades, and has never had any power or influence in the US.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Darius_Addicus_Gaius on July 28, 2012, 12:45:43 AM
This is what the far left has done to our great nation.

How could the 'far left' do anything to your precious nation?  It hasn't been in power anywhere in the world in decades, and has never had any power or influence in the US.

let me get my violin


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Vosem on July 28, 2012, 08:51:48 AM
This is what the far left has done to our great nation.

How could the 'far left' do anything to your precious nation?  It hasn't been in power anywhere in the world in decades, and has never had any power or influence in the US.

'Left' and 'right' are relative terms, opebo. In the context of regular American politics, the 2009-2011 Democratic congressional majority was far left, and paid the price for it.


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 28, 2012, 02:08:16 PM
This is what the far left has done to our great nation.

How could the 'far left' do anything to your precious nation?  It hasn't been in power anywhere in the world in decades, and has never had any power or influence in the US.

'Left' and 'right' are relative terms, opebo. In the context of regular American politics, the 2009-2011 Democratic congressional majority was far left, and paid the price for it.

lolno


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: SPC on August 12, 2012, 02:55:15 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

Can't we be opposed to being forced to pay for both?


Title: Re: "Paying for someone else"
Post by: Person Man on August 13, 2012, 10:22:48 AM
Ok. I'll be up front. I'm tired of people talking about being forced  to pay for a total stranger's healthcare or education when they are more than happy to pay to have a total stranger killed or destroyed in some other way.

Can't we be opposed to being forced to pay for both?

The least common denominator just doesn't happen.