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Title: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 15, 2012, 07:18:15 PM according to CNN and an ordained priest in Rome, who is also professor of psychology at the University of West Georgia (what colorful titles)...I don't understand what the scripture teaches about homosexuality.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-take-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality/?hpt=hp_c1 I hope you enjoy the read...feel free to discuss it in this thread until I return tomorrow, at which time I will respond blindfolded and type with only my little toe. Right now, I have to log off and play husband for the rest of the evening...I'll probably even get laid. until then...just bathe yourselves in the supreme wisdom and insight of this esteemed product of human knowledge. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 10:12:57 AM Preface…
Quote Daniel A. Helminiak, who was ordained a priest in Rome, is a theologian, psychotherapist and author of “What the Bible Really Says about homosexuality" and books on contemporary spirituality. He is a professor of psychology at the University of West Georgia. Quote We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality. Repeat after me: “Irrational…just a fiction of blind conviction…” I like that! Certainly, this priest and expert scholar can be trusted not to make such a claim against a group of people unless he has reason to do so. Certainly, this man has been trained in his church and school to be intellectually honest and logically unbiased. And certainly we will be able to prove his honesty and intellect trustworthy by examining his points that led to his conclusion which prompted his judgment that the jmfcsts are “irrational” and are following “just a fiction of blind conviction”. In the end, we will all undoubtedly be in awe at his superior integrity and intelligence, and we will revere him as a true Sheppard of the blind and bigoted. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 10:32:47 AM Chapter One: We know more now about Homosexuality than God did 2000 years ago…
Quote Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not. I don’t really know who to respond to this statement, for it contradicts both the bible and what he is supposed to believe as a Christian… 1) He’s see the bible as a product of ancient people, not a product of the inspiration of God. 2) He believes the NT, which is supposed to be considered The Standard for the Christian message, is not applicable to today’s world, and therefore can’t be used to define sin for today. 3) He see’s the questions of today’s world as superior in complexity to the ignorance of the writers of the bible, thus today’s questions supersede the answer questions found in NT…thus we can set the NT aside and answer these questions and define sin ourselves. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: TJ in Oregon on May 16, 2012, 10:42:19 AM This guy is clearly an apostate.
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: John Dibble on May 16, 2012, 10:44:40 AM Some guy has a different interpretation of the Bible than jfmcst!? *GASP* This is certainly worthy of its own thread.
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: The Mikado on May 16, 2012, 11:48:22 AM Just checking: you didn't specify his complaint anywhere. Is this the "the word usually translated as homosexual in Paul's letter actually refers to male prostitutes" complaint, or is it some new complaint I haven't heard before?
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 11:51:24 AM Some guy has a different interpretation of the Bible than jfmcst!? *GASP* This is certainly worthy of its own thread. it is fine to have a different interpretation, provided the interpretation is honest and supported by the text. The purpose of this thread is to determine whether or not this "priest" and "scholar" is being honest or is self-deceived. And I think that is something we can ascertain, even though I know many posters on this board hate the idea that something can be tested. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 11:52:48 AM Just checking: you didn't specify his complaint anywhere. Is this the "the word usually translated as homosexual in Paul's letter actually refers to male prostitutes" complaint, or is it some new complaint I haven't heard before? I'm taking his arguement from top to bottom...we're just not at that point yet. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: 7,052,770 on May 16, 2012, 11:56:29 AM Is he a Catholic priest? If so, we need to give him and other like-minded priests a promotions. Enough with hateful bishops.
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 12:12:27 PM Chapter Two: Sodom’s sin had nothing to do with homosexuality…
Quote …Sodomites (Genesis 19), whose experience is frequently cited by modern anti-gay critics. The Sodomites wanted to rape the visitors whom Lot, the one just man in the city, welcomed in hospitality for the night. The Bible itself is lucid on the sin of Sodom: pride, lack of concern for the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:48-49); hatred of strangers and cruelty to guests (Wisdom 19:13); arrogance (Sirach/Ecclesiaticus 16:8 ); evildoing, injustice, oppression of the widow and orphan (Isaiah 1:17); adultery (in those days, the use of another man’s property), and lying (Jeremiah 23:12). But nowhere are same-sex acts named as the sin of Sodom So, we can see from the list of biblical books he referenced (Genesis, Ezekiel, Wisdom, Sirach/ Ecclesiaticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah) that this “expert” knows the books of the bible, as he should given the fact that he is a priest. But, are we to believe he was never heard of the NT book of Jude?! Jude 1:7 “…just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire (Greek: strange flesh), serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Why the omission? Could it be that the omission was purposeful because it defeated his argument about Sodom because it mentioned that the men of Sodom were sexually perverted in that they sought strange sexual relations with strange flesh, and therefore this sacred priest and renounced expert and scholar withheld the evidence of Jude’s witness in order to subvert a logical conclusion?! Well, one omission doesn’t make a trend…so we’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now and move on to the next chapter of his unsurpassed knowledge. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 12:15:44 PM Is he a Catholic priest? not sure if he is Catholic or not, many denominations call their clergy "priests"...but the question of this thread is whether his argument regarding what the bible teaches about a certain subject is sound, not what denomination he belongs to. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 01:03:24 PM Chapter 3: Romans Ch 1, Right side of mouth – Paul isn’t condemning anything unethetical…
Quote The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another." The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation. Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation. Besides, Paul used two other words to describe male-male sex: dishonorable (1:24, 26) and unseemly (1:27). But for Paul, neither carried ethical weight. In 2 Corinthians 6:8 and 11:21, Paul says that even he was held in dishonor — for preaching Christ. Clearly, these words merely indicate social disrepute, not truly unethical behavior. No condemnation of unethical behavior in Rom ch 1?! Does"nothing unethical being condemned" fit the context (bolded below)? Quote Rom 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Seems to me that the ENTIRE CONTEXT, beginning to end, is about the “ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” Not sure how you turn that into "not condemning anything unethical”…but this wise scholar did just that. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 01:12:08 PM in case someone is not keeping score at home, here is the scorecard so far:
1) Withholding evidence - In regard to Sodom, this priest and scholar has either a) dishonestly ommitted the book of Jude, or b) is ignorant that the book of Jude references Sodom...either of which make him an idiot. 2) Distorting Context - In regard to Rom ch 1, this priest and scholar admits Paul is referring to same-sex sex, but states the vocabulary is not referring to ethics...even though it is completely surrounded (front to back) by an ethetic context which invokes the wrath of God. ...and we've only just begun! Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: TJ in Oregon on May 16, 2012, 01:24:07 PM Yeah his argument about "social rebuke" is pretty ridiculous considering it is pretty obvious those who "gave up natural relations" are not exactly being complimented in Romans. Even if the words used translate to "unnatural" without ethical connotations, clearly these people are not "held in dishonor" in the same way Paul calls himself "held in dishonor". This is obviously not a passage where the people in question are being praised for going against society by following God.
Is he a Catholic priest? not sure if he is Catholic or not, many denominations call their clergy "priests"...but the question of this thread is whether his argument regarding what the bible teaches about a certain subject is sound, not what denomination he belongs to. He was ordained a Catholic priest at age 17, served the Church for 8 years as a priest in the Diocese of Pittsburgh and teaching in a seminary. Then, he became dissolusioned and left the Church because he no longer believed in its teachings. He left the priesthood, enrolled at the University of Texas, and is now a professor at the University of west Georgia. He is an advocate for DignityUSA, a pseudo-Catholic apostate organization devoted to petitioning the Vatican to change the Church's sexual teachings. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 01:56:25 PM He was ordained a Catholic priest at age 17, served the Church for 8 years as a priest in the Diocese of Pittsburgh and teaching in a seminary. Then, he became dissolusioned and left the Church because he no longer believed in its teachings. He left the priesthood, enrolled at the University of Texas, and is now a professor at the University of west Georgia. He is an advocate for DignityUSA, a pseudo-Catholic apostate organization devoted to petitioning the Vatican to change the Church's sexual teachings. Who gave you the microphone? Why do you inform me of such things? Don't you know I much rather go into these discussions totally unprepared and in the dark, with a mind wiped clean of knowledge? I didn't want to know his denomination or his life story; rather I wanted him to be able to ascend on the wings of his titles: 1) ordained - acknowledged by other men as chosen by God 2) priest - a spiritual leader of men’s souls, sent from God Himself 3) in Rome - one whose nostrils regularly breathe the dust of the bones of God’s every own top Apostles, Peter and Paul 4) theologian - someone who has studied the scriptures thousands of hours more than mere ignoramuses like me 5) professor – a scholarly teacher 6) of psychology – someone who knows the diseases of the mind 7) psychotherapist – someone trained in therapeutic care of the mentally ill 8 ) author – someone who knows so much, he just has to put it down in print in order to pass along his wisdom to the dumb inbred masses. I wanted him to soar into the stratosphere, higher than the simple of mind of the jmfcst could even phantom…but, no, you had to go and reveal the spoiler before I had the joy of discovering it for myself. May you pay for your transgressions. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 02:20:38 PM Chapter 4: Romans Ch 1, Left side of mouth - even if Paul is supporting Lev 18:22, it’s just a cultural tradition that is trumped by Jesus’ statements concerning a pure heart.
Quote In this passage Paul is referring to the ancient Jewish Law: Leviticus 18:22, the “abomination” of a man’s lying with another man. Paul sees male-male sex as an impurity, a taboo, uncleanness — in other words, “abomination.” Introducing this discussion in 1:24, he says so outright: "God gave them up … to impurity." But Jesus taught lucidly that Jewish requirements for purity — varied cultural traditions — do not matter before God. What matters is purity of heart. 1) I agree Paul is referencing Lev 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination”…but, more specifically, Paul is referencing Lev 20:13: Lev 20:13 “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” And you can tell Paul is referencing the death sentence in Lev 20:13, for he states: Rom 1:32 “Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them”. 2) The context of Jesus’ statement regarding “purity of heart” was clean and unclean food, which Paul himself taught was a regulation of the past. But, no where, does Jesus use “purity of heart” as an excuse to condone sexual acts. 3) Claiming the OT laws forbidding homosexuality to “varied cultural traditions” such as clean and unclean meat ignores the following facts: a) that prohibition against eating clean and unclean meat began and ended with the Law of Moses (Noah was allowed to eat all meats in Gen 9 prior to the Law of Moses), but the prohibition against homosexuality has a precedent PRIOR to the Law of Moses (see Gen ch 1-4 where sex is given a proper context within heterosexual marriage, and Gen 19 where Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned for the sexual perversion according to Jude 1:7…the reference this scholar dishonestly forgot to mention). b) The NT itself repeats the condemnation of homosexuality, while declaring all meats clean. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 02:27:46 PM Chapter 5: The anti-gay marriage crowd is more anal-retentive than the bible itself…
Quote As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. Yet homosexuality is not only condemned from Genesis through the NT, it also doesn’t mesh with the examples of marriages within the bible, which were heterosexual…so, not only is it uniformly outlawed, there is no way to make it mesh with what was allowed. Not to mention that one man – one woman marriage was the original pattern at the beginning and is the pattern accepted by the NT (1Tim 3:2,12;Titus 1:6). Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 02:32:01 PM Chapter 6: David and Jonathan were queer…Ruth and Naomi were lesbians…and Daniel and the palace master were booty buddies…
Quote David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers. Basely conjecture (a.k.a. the calling card of many expert scholars.) Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 02:41:56 PM Chapter 7: Whistling Song of Songs over a bridge too far.
Quote The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Head scratcher on this one…guess my feeble mind cant keep up with the professor. I am not sure what the point is, but it is definitely a heterosexual romance being discussed, and marriage is discussed as well as the word spouse is mentioned numerous times throughout the book. Example: 4:8 Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse… Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Kung Fu Kenny on May 16, 2012, 02:43:59 PM TL;DR the whole thing, but as far as sinning goes, Mary Magdalene was a prostitute...
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 03:17:20 PM TL;DR the whole thing, but as far as sinning goes, Mary Magdalene was a prostitute... does it say Mary Magdalene continued to practice her sin after she came to Christ? Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 03:18:28 PM Chapter 8: If Jesus didn’t specifically mention it, it must be alright with God…
Quote Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors He never mentioned bestiality and witchcraft, either. Does that make bestiality and witchcraft ok for Christians to engage in? (In fact, unlike homosexuality being discussed in Rom ch1, the NT is completely silent on bestiality.) Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 03:19:27 PM Chapter 9: “Inconsistency for $800, Alex”
Quote , although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion. Mat 8:5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! It will be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that very hour. The Greek word “pais” occurs many times throughout the NT (Matthew 2:16; Matthew 8:6; Matthew 8:8; Matthew 8:13; Matthew 12:18; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:18; Matthew 21:15…Luke 1:54; Luke 1:69; Luke 2:43; Luke 7:7; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:42; Luke 12:45; Luke 15:26…John 4:51…Acts 3:13; Acts 3:26; Acts 4:25; Acts 4:27; Acts 4:30; Acts 20:12)... ...yet, for some reason, only once does it refer to a homosexual lover?! http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pais.html (http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pais.html) Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 03:39:05 PM Chapter 10: Paul’s teachings allow room for homosexual marriage…
Quote Paul discouraged marriage because he believed the world would soon end. Still, he encouraged people with sexual needs to marry, and he never linked sex and procreation. The scholar is referencing 1Cor ch 7, but… 1) Paul never stated the world was about to end in their lifetimes: 1Cor 7:29 “What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.” That is far from stating the world is about to end, rather it is statement of urgency to take hold of the salvation being offered lest one be engrossed in the world and be destroyed along with the world. In other places where Paul does indeed explicitly mentions the timing of the end of the world, he only states it will not take place until the falling away occurs and the AntiChrist is ruling from Jerusalem (2Thes ch 2). No where does Paul, or anyone in the NT including Jesus, state that the end of the world would end in their lifetimes, rather the NT uniformly declares that certain events must happen first. 2) In encouraging marriage in 1Cor ch 7, Paul ALWAYS couched marriage in terms of a heterosexual union: 1Cor 7:2 “each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.” So I have no idea what this scholar's point is, other than he is plainly displaying that he has no point. You can read the chapter for yourself at the following link: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+7&version=NIV1984 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+7&version=NIV1984) Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on May 16, 2012, 03:47:42 PM tl;dr, except, from what I've been able to glean from this thread, jmfcst is dissecting something by a particularly bizarre and incompetent example of a 'scholar' who disagrees with his interpretation of the Bible. I'm not sure if he thinks that this disqualifies other such scholars from being taken seriously or not, any more than jmfcst himself disqualifies all conservative Evangelical readings.
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 03:49:14 PM Chapter 11: God-given reason does not take a stand against immorality…
Quote Were God-given reason to prevail, rather than knee-jerk religion, we would not be having a heated debate over gay marriage. “Liberty and justice for all,” marvel at the diversity of creation, welcome for one another: these, alas, are true biblical values. Yep, people like me are so clueless, and promote arguments that are “Irrational…and just a fiction of blind conviction…” Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on May 16, 2012, 04:15:42 PM ...yeah, even though this guy's conclusions agree (more or less) with mine, his arguments aren't worth paying attention to. This is almost as bad as the denominational embarrassment that was Bishop Spong.
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 04:19:20 PM tl;dr, except, from what I've been able to glean from this thread, jmfcst is dissecting something by a particularly bizarre and incompetent example of a 'scholar' who disagrees with his interpretation of the Bible. I'm not sure if he thinks that this disqualifies other such scholars from being taken seriously or not Hate to shake you up, but this “bizarre and incompetent example of a 'scholar'“ has presented the very same arguments us regulars on this board have heard a 1000 times. In fact, one just might begin to get the impression that arguments like the ones presented in this article are the "best" the world has to offer in its attempt to make homosexuality mesh with the bible. But, hey, if you know of a better example of a “scholar”, please name him so that we can examine his arguments, for the arguments we heard over the last 10 years on this Forum have been exceptionally butt-stupid, to say the least. In fact, they’ve even lead unbelievers like Dibble to conclude homosexuality doesn’t mesh with the bible. So, maybe you could help save your bible’s reputation by giving us a name to a “scholar” who really knows what he is talking about. --- , any more than jmfcst himself disqualifies all conservative Evangelical readings. Yes, I am sure you, Nathan, with your surpassing godly wisdom and knowledge, could just point out all my logical mistakes. If only you would give us the time of day, we might finally see the light. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 04:34:53 PM ...yeah, even though this guy's conclusions agree (more or less) with mine, his arguments aren't worth paying attention to. well, the author had the right angle of attack, for any biblical argument condoning homosexuality has to do two things: 1) disarm the bible's condemnation of homosexuality 2) make homosexuality mesh with sexual practices the bible allows But, after a lifetime of study, he failed in both area and resorted to suppressing and distorting evidence…he’s nothing but a dishonest joke. I wouldn’t even hire this guy to flip burgers. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on May 16, 2012, 04:41:49 PM It's sad. There are much more competent ways of making these arguments (and other, far better, arguments, ones that don't elide large sections of history and interpretation) but I read what you're quoting from and it's just an incoherent mess.
Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: The Mikado on May 16, 2012, 05:29:01 PM ...Wait, this guy claims the Centurion's servant was actually his lover?
That's...not one I've heard before. That's a really weird direction to take that passage. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 16, 2012, 06:53:46 PM ...Wait, this guy claims the Centurion's servant was actually his lover? That's...not one I've heard before. That's a really weird direction to take that passage. It is a common argument for those attempting to make homosexuality fit the bible Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: opebo on May 16, 2012, 11:20:31 PM ...it's just an incoherent mess. This is really the point isn't it? Why people cling to this 'bible' is simply inexplicable. Just chuck it and believe whatever you like folks - the act of belief is precisely the same either way - a kind of intellectual bed-wetting. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on May 16, 2012, 11:56:41 PM ...it's just an incoherent mess. This is really the point isn't it? Why people cling to this 'bible' is simply inexplicable. Just chuck it and believe whatever you like folks - the act of belief is precisely the same either way - a kind of intellectual bed-wetting. The function of the Bible isn't as a self-help tool, opebo. Use of an external locus of belief has a social aspect that 'believing whatever you like' doesn't. What if one believes whatever one likes and that happens to be the Creeds or the Sutras of an existing religion? Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 17, 2012, 10:37:46 AM ...Wait, this guy claims the Centurion's servant was actually his lover? That's...not one I've heard before. That's a really weird direction to take that passage. Mikado....going off on a tanget here...but what exactly is your story? In another thread, it was stated you were once a member of Judaism - which explains your knowledge of the OT. But it also seems you have read the NT. Correct? If so, what is your impression of it? (forgive me if I forgetting past conversations with you on this topic - my memory retention in regard to this forum is extremely poor) Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: The Mikado on May 18, 2012, 11:18:46 AM ...Wait, this guy claims the Centurion's servant was actually his lover? That's...not one I've heard before. That's a really weird direction to take that passage. Mikado....going off on a tanget here...but what exactly is your story? In another thread, it was stated you were once a member of Judaism - which explains your knowledge of the OT. But it also seems you have read the NT. Correct? If so, what is your impression of it? (forgive me if I forgetting past conversations with you on this topic - my memory retention in regard to this forum is extremely poor) I was a Jew, and a pretty firmly convinced one, until a point when I had a sudden realization that I was just going through the motions and didn't actually believe the words I was saying, which caused me to reevaluate my stance. I realized that I had actually held onto Judaism longer because the liturgy was in Hebrew, leading me to not have to seriously interface with the message because I was more focused on correct pronunciation and memorization than the meaning of the words I was saying. I had always been interested in theology and had been assigned several of the Gospels in my 10th grade Literature class at my (secular) high school. I decided to read the NT (not straight through, but book by book over the course of years). I had already read most of the OT and have since read the rest (not straight through, again: Psalms is not meant to be read that way). I was legitimately interested to see if the Bible could convince me, in part because I've always had a fondness for (certain types of) Christianity. It would be far easier for me to become a Christian than to return to Judaism, with which I have a number of problems. In college, I had to read several major Christian texts, Augustine's City of God Against the Pagans being the most prominent. I respect Augustine: don't share his faith, but he's a great example of how a hyper-intelligent man can come to terms with Christianity and accept it on its own terms. In general, I'm very interested in seeing where other people are coming from and I also have a passion for reading the "classics," so I interface with a lot of religion. Just over a year ago, I undertook the project of reading the Koran, which was...mildly disappointing. The Koran simply is not nearly as good on a literary level as the Bible is. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Mechaman on May 18, 2012, 12:35:51 PM My god this "scholar" is an incompetent embarrassment.
I was about to go into a rant about how this guy should just give up Christianity as a whole I think it should also be pointed out that what is in the Bible has come about from thousands of years of authorships and interpretation. Sure, an argument can be made that the Earth is literally 6,000 years old, Noah really did get two of every animal in the ark, Biggie and Tupac are partying with Elvis and Buddy Holly in Madagascar, but that's missing the point. A lot of what is seen in the Bible is interpretations from the writing styles of the Hebrew and Greek authors. The footnotes of many Bibles themselves confirm this. I guess what I'm saying is that acting like every word of the Bible is a word that came directly from God is disingenuous (although frankly, I don't take the idea of him seriously now days). God doesn't just ZAP! BOOM! Bibles into existence folks, what you're reading is the texts of ancient men from ancient cultures. On the issue of gays anybody could make any type of argument based on what is said in the Bible. Frankly, it's like people who make arguments for abortion based off of biblical passages. You can take any of THE MILLIONS (and millions) of the Bible's Passages and come out with a different interpretation. Does this mean the scholar is right? I don't think so. Because his argument is one that is LATHERED IN INCOMPETENCE. And Jmfcst is clearly not as dumb as mud, given his thorough background and understanding of the Bible that seems to elipse this "scholar". Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 18, 2012, 01:09:57 PM My god this "scholar" is an incompetent embarrassment...his argument is one that is LATHERED IN INCOMPETENCE. Four things to note: 1) I didn’t single this guy out, rather I noticed his article because it was given the most amount of space on the front page of cnn.com that day, and after opening the article and reading just enough to understand what side he was on, I created this thread without reading the rest because I was 100% convinced he would turn out to be a) dishonest, and b) illogical. 2) His arguments are nothing new, as most, if not all, of them have been discussed numerous times on this board. 3) He is no more dishonest and incompetent as any other “scholar” or layman trying to make homosexuality agree with the bible. 4) The fact this man, as intellectually dishonest and incompetent as he is, is in the position he is in within the American education system, speaks volumes as to what is going on in the West. Homosexuality is being pushed by the media, and by the education system, and by the courts, and by many seminaries of many churches. It doesn’t matter to them if their argument has any merit, or is even honest. They don’t care! Their consciences have been seared to the point they are themselves deceived by their own deception. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on May 18, 2012, 02:24:39 PM Regarding points 3 and 4:
He teaches psychology at the University of West Georgia. He isn't even operating within his discipline, which would be acceptable if and only if he were not presenting his arguments in incoherent ways and posturing for a mass-media audience. That does happen to be, whether you went in singling him out or not, a level of academic ineptitude above and beyond not actualizing parts of the Bible that you think should be actualized. If he doesn't already have tenure this can and should be grounds for denying it. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on May 18, 2012, 03:23:06 PM Regarding points 3 and 4: He teaches psychology at the University of West Georgia. He isn't even operating within his discipline, which would be acceptable if and only if he were not presenting his arguments in incoherent ways and posturing for a mass-media audience. That does happen to be, whether you went in singling him out or not, a level of academic ineptitude above and beyond not actualizing parts of the Bible that you think should be actualized. If he doesn't already have tenure this can and should be grounds for denying it. he is still typical of everyone who attempts to make homosexuality mesh with the bible, for he makes the same arguments heard a thousand times on this board. If you think he is not typical, and since you are unwilling to walk us through the scripture yourself (or even point out the errors of those who hold an opposing view), then please provide an example of someone who is. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Boris on May 18, 2012, 05:56:18 PM The fact this man, as intellectually dishonest and incompetent as he is, is in the position he is in within the American education system, speaks volumes as to what is going on in the West. Homosexuality is being pushed by the media, and by the education system, and by the courts, and by many seminaries of many churches. It doesn’t matter to them if their argument has any merit, or is even honest. They don’t care! Their consciences have been seared to the point they are themselves deceived by their own deception.[/b] Well, what do you expect? People interact with homosexuals and don't see all of them as inherently awful human beings and view their sexuality as an unimportant and irrelevant component of their personality. Obviously it's easier to resort to intellectual dishonesty instead of 100% renouncing what they've believed in their entire lives. Instead of jumping through hoops trying to justify homosexuality, they should just call the biblical analysis of homosexuality stupid and leave it at that. There's really not much more to it, and if God wants to throw all homosexuals into hell for eternity I guess that's His perogative. Title: Re: According to CNN and an expert scholar, the jmfcst is as dumb as mud... Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on May 18, 2012, 07:12:49 PM Regarding points 3 and 4: He teaches psychology at the University of West Georgia. He isn't even operating within his discipline, which would be acceptable if and only if he were not presenting his arguments in incoherent ways and posturing for a mass-media audience. That does happen to be, whether you went in singling him out or not, a level of academic ineptitude above and beyond not actualizing parts of the Bible that you think should be actualized. If he doesn't already have tenure this can and should be grounds for denying it. he is still typical of everyone who attempts to make homosexuality mesh with the bible, for he makes the same arguments heard a thousand times on this board. If you think he is not typical, and since you are unwilling to walk us through the scripture yourself (or even point out the errors of those who hold an opposing view), then please provide an example of someone who is. I'm not unwilling. I haven't had time, partially because I don't think it's of such paramount importance as you do. Assuming I can find the thread again, I'll get back to you on the Adam and Eve thing the next time I have a slow writing day, I swear. Sarah Coakley's work is more indicative of ways of treating this that actually make some sense. |