Talk Elections

General Politics => Individual Politics => Topic started by: golden on May 17, 2012, 11:40:01 AM



Title: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: golden on May 17, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
()


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 17, 2012, 12:04:48 PM
Liar, since they are in the bottom 99% for almost certain, and HP for continuing with this idiotic "I BUST MY ASS OFF"ery that somehow is supposed to make you superior to everyone else. Seriously, shut up, no-one cares.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on May 17, 2012, 12:05:13 PM
Delusional, and nearly impossible to replicate. Also, impractical to expect anyone to follow exactly. Plus it ignores certain unfortunate circumstances that happen to everyone and can't always be avoided.

First of all, it's almost impossible to graduate from a US College debt free without some help. And, how are you supposed to balance a good education and a 30 hr/week work load? People should have some free time, especially at that age, for the good of someone's psychology. Not everyone thrives on working all the time. Obviously this person is an idiot for not considering that.

Secondly, it's stupid to think most teenagers would start saving for college at 17. And in reality, it would be smart to start saving earlier than that. But, at that age, people don't tend fully understand things like financial planning enough to have everything organized perfectly.

Oh, so you got a scholarship, eh? Well, good for you. Not everyone can keep up with a 90% average, you elitist f**k.

I do agree with some points though. People with large personal debt can mostly blame themselves, depending on their circumstances. If you eat out a lot and shop a lot, this can happen to you, and you shouldn't blame wall street for that, per se. But, that's besides the point. The economy is largely controlled by the emotions of a few wall street people, and that is truly a recipe for a disaster. No amount of saving in the world can prevent you from an inevitable f**k up in the market.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on May 17, 2012, 12:36:47 PM
I managed to leave college debt free. Mainly because here I don't have to pay tuition.

Of course now I'm unemployed and living off government assistance (and that of friends). Yay!

Working hard is not necessarily a virtue, kids.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 17, 2012, 01:25:09 PM
     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on May 17, 2012, 01:29:37 PM
     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Insula Dei on May 17, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
These webcam text 'I am the X%' sort of things are laughably stupid.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on May 17, 2012, 02:27:38 PM
They seem rather scared to show their face.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 17, 2012, 03:09:44 PM
A FF through and through. Someone who gets it.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Oakvale on May 17, 2012, 03:34:03 PM
Blah blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 17, 2012, 03:35:44 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on May 17, 2012, 03:37:55 PM
The Libertarians in this thread have revealed just how out of touch they are with reality.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: RogueBeaver on May 17, 2012, 03:40:11 PM
Shouldn't advertise it.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 03:48:45 PM
A FF through and through. Someone who gets it.
lol no


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: opebo on May 17, 2012, 03:51:21 PM
A fictional character, obviously.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 03:54:51 PM
'please sir, may i have another'


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on May 17, 2012, 03:55:27 PM
Blah blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah.

You have a problem with the ~*American$$Dream*~, Oakvale?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 03:56:06 PM
Blah blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah.

You have a problem with the ~*American$$Dream*~, Oakvale?
fight socialism, go to a state school.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on May 17, 2012, 03:57:12 PM
A liar or a pompous dickhead.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Yelnoc on May 17, 2012, 04:41:07 PM
C:\Users\Yelnoc> Load bootstraps.exe


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 04:41:14 PM
Among the many, many lies, exaggerations, misinterpretations, misrepresentations, and ignorance is the simple issue that while this person may have accomplished something that should definitely be a point of pride, most people around college-graduate age grew up with an inflated sense of wealth and opportunity during the '90s. Being taught from an early age that you're going to have to start working as soon as you can in order to accomplish something like graduating college is almost verging on a luxury. There are far too many kids that grow up being told what to do and exactly what will happen and how, but were then faced with the issue that they never had to fend for themselves or struggle to get by before. How can a 17 year old be expected to know better than their parents, teachers, guidance counselors, and society in general enough to plan for struggling through college? It's a pompous, ignorant, spiteful, and resentful thing to tell kids that they deserve what they've been handed by the generation before them, whether that be an education or an introduction to a lifestyle they have no chance of maintaining or understanding how to change. Our parents' tendencies towards fiscal excess and living beyond their means has put the vast majority of a generation in the extremely difficult position of being deluded into thinking they'll be fine forever and don't have to worry about saving or working for what we want.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Donerail on May 17, 2012, 05:03:42 PM
FF; they have the right attitude about success.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on May 17, 2012, 05:10:45 PM
An utter twat.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on May 17, 2012, 05:12:36 PM

Please leave the Democratic party immediately.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 17, 2012, 05:18:15 PM

Intuitive and insightful. 10/10, would read again.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: greenforest32 on May 17, 2012, 05:19:49 PM
I get the sense that behind those words, this person believes that working hard for the owners > fairer allocation of resources.

It's amazing how much money we let the parasitic leeches extract from people in the name of 'cost of living'.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 05:23:36 PM

And yet you choose to respond to that rather than the legitimate opposition to your own rather lacking opinion.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Donerail on May 17, 2012, 05:52:49 PM

Please leave the Democratic party immediately.

Happy to.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 17, 2012, 05:58:07 PM

And yet you choose to respond to that rather than the legitimate opposition to your own rather lacking opinion.

Well, I tend to get ridiculed whenever I post my legitimate opinions on here, so why post at all?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 06:11:37 PM
And yet you choose to respond to that rather than the legitimate opposition to your own rather lacking opinion.
Well, I tend to get ridiculed whenever I post my legitimate opinions on here, so why post at all?

Oh come on, dude. I've been universally disliked by both Republicans and Democrats since like 2008 and I'm still going strong. Some of the best learning experiences I've had on this place have been the ones in which I'm most ridiculed.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 17, 2012, 06:17:04 PM
We're obviously two different people. I take all criticisms to heart, even the ones via the internet. I'll spare you the sob story, but I don't take well to criticism. If I find the time, I'll post my full response, but it'll be pretty lengthy.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on May 17, 2012, 06:18:59 PM
Massive FF, but in this pictures case, a liar, and propaganda.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: LastVoter on May 17, 2012, 06:24:19 PM
Liar


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 06:38:32 PM
We're obviously two different people. I take all criticisms to heart, even the ones via the internet. I'll spare you the sob story, but I don't take well to criticism. If I find the time, I'll post my full response, but it'll be pretty lengthy.
the picture deserves no respect because its such a nauseating combination of obliviousness combined with the usual contempt for the victims of (literally) institutionalized thievery. trust me i am no fan of the occupy crowd. but this is infinitely worse. if you want me to explain more so i can but what i mean should be obvious to anyone thats paid any attention the last 4-5 years or so.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 17, 2012, 06:43:47 PM
We're obviously two different people. I take all criticisms to heart, even the ones via the internet. I'll spare you the sob story, but I don't take well to criticism. If I find the time, I'll post my full response, but it'll be pretty lengthy.

the picture deserves no respect because its such a nauseating combination of obliviousness combined with thinly veiled contempt for the victims of (literally) institutionalized thievery. trust me i am no fan of the occupy crowd but this is 100x worse. if you want me to explain more so i can but what i mean should be obvious to anyone thats paid any attention the last 4-5 years or so.

Yeah, I retract my statement earlier about this person being a massive FF, though I do agree with the sentiment of their note. It was arrogant and strongly worded, and basically states that poor people are poor because of their own fault. No me gusta.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Napoleon on May 17, 2012, 06:49:05 PM

And yet you choose to respond to that rather than the legitimate opposition to your own rather lacking opinion.
Ghostwhite does that in most of his posts.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 06:49:28 PM
Among the many, many lies, exaggerations, misinterpretations, misrepresentations, and ignorance is the simple issue that while this person may have accomplished something that should definitely be a point of pride, most people around college-graduate age grew up with an inflated sense of wealth and opportunity during the '90s. Being taught from an early age that you're going to have to start working as soon as you can in order to accomplish something like graduating college is almost verging on a luxury. There are far too many kids that grow up being told what to do and exactly what will happen and how, but were then faced with the issue that they never had to fend for themselves or struggle to get by before. How can a 17 year old be expected to know better than their parents, teachers, guidance counselors, and society in general enough to plan for struggling through college? It's a pompous, ignorant, spiteful, and resentful thing to tell kids that they deserve what they've been handed by the generation before them, whether that be an education or an introduction to a lifestyle they have no chance of maintaining or understanding how to change. Our parents' tendencies towards fiscal excess and living beyond their means has put the vast majority of a generation in the extremely difficult position of being deluded into thinking they'll be fine forever and don't have to worry about saving or working for what we want.
that isnt even why its really offensive. the point is that we have a banking industry that literally stole peoples houses and almost unimaginable amounts of money and has ruined entire lives and only been rewarded for it. they will never be held accountable, ever. and these tools respond with 'well i manage to scrape by with my sh**tty job and paycheck to paycheck lifestyle, stop your bitching everything is fine.' it is disgustingly stupid not to mention a case of blaming the victim (which in this case is most people). i would say such displays of ignorance make me uncontrollably angry but to be honest i am burnt out at this point.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 17, 2012, 06:53:15 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

     Clearly, everyone who lives within their means & does not whine about the lack of a free ride is an Uncle Tom. Try harder next time.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 06:54:42 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

     Clearly, everyone who lives within their means & does not whine about the lack of a free ride is an Uncle Tom. Try harder next time.
thats not what i was actually implying. besides how are people supposed to 'live within their means' when the entire economy discourages savings thanks to high inflation and is based on consumption? don't you know your own side's talking points.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 17, 2012, 07:08:27 PM
     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

     Clearly, everyone who lives within their means & does not whine about the lack of a free ride is an Uncle Tom. Try harder next time.
thats not what i was actually implying. besides how are people supposed to 'live within their means' when the entire economy discourages savings thanks to high inflation and is based on consumption? don't you know your own side's talking points.

     The economy also encourages wasting money on frivolities. If you look at the average person's budget, much of what they spend is wasted on expensive gadgets & oversized portions. Most people are stupid & easily led into making poor decisions that worsen their station. I'm not immune to this either, but I strive to improve.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 07:13:09 PM
that isnt even why its really offensive. the point is that we have a banking industry that literally stole peoples houses and almost unimaginable amounts of money and has ruined entire lives and only been rewarded for it. they will never be held accountable, ever. and these tools respond with 'well i manage to scrape by with my sh**tty job and paycheck to paycheck lifestyle, stop your bitching everything is fine.' it is disgustingly stupid not to mention a case of blaming the victim (which in this case is most people). i would say such displays of ignorance make me uncontrollably angry but to be honest i am burnt out at this point.

Well, that is certainly far more offensive, but I still think it's a ridiculous notion for people to look down on young adults for not having been prepared by their parents to handle hardships. That's the exact same thing as disdaining rich young people for having been born with money or ridiculing poor people for not having a good enough financial standing to better their situation. So essentially I completely agree. And would emphasize your point that almost everyone has been a victim. People that have done well for themselves have a lot to be proud and relieved about, but how that translates into being better than anyone at this point is a symptom of our obsession with the notion that any American institution is fair and if it doesn't work it's your own fault. The dominantly monetary based culture we live in breeds an unhealthy, aggressively competitive culture that is severely lacking in compassion or care for those who don't have the opportunities those who have succeeded have. There is a culture of bad sportsmanship that is so pervasive it turns us against each other. We have been brought up to believe our entire self worth structure should be based on appearance, status, and the dollar amount we can assign to ourselves in comparison to each other. There is no room for empathy because it reduces your status to being in solidarity with someone below you. Pretty disgusting and definitely an exhaustingly pervasive ideology to battle.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 17, 2012, 07:38:11 PM
Absolutely. There is never a problem and you are anti-American for suggesting a flaw, even when it becomes a crisis and everyone else finally acknowledges it. Anyone who identifies an issue within our nation before it reaches the critical point when it cannot be fixed is forced out of the mainstream.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 17, 2012, 08:04:07 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 08:09:54 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.
democracy doesn't work


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 17, 2012, 08:14:24 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.
democracy doesn't work

     If it did, we wouldn't be at this juncture & I wouldn't be a member of some random minor party that will never win an important office. Fortunately, that was not one of the ideas. :P


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on May 17, 2012, 08:14:52 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.
democracy doesn't work

What is your suggestion for government then, wise one? Surely, an element of popular sovereignty is necessary for the state to be just.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 17, 2012, 08:15:06 PM

()


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 08:35:03 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.
democracy doesn't work

What is your suggestion for government then, wise one? Surely, an element of popular sovereignty is necessary for the state to be just.
why does popularity = morality? i don't see how something like venezuela or zimbabwe or various majority shia areas would be desirable to have a democracies. and how many tyrannical regimes claimed to represent' the true spirit of democracy'? as for government it depends on circumstances. i have some sympathies for monarchy/benign aristocracy for purely pragmatic reasons that i've elaborated on but obviously such a thing is very hard to sell and not culturally relevant to most westerners let alone americans.

restricting the franchise to people that can pass a civics test and making voting much more localized is one possible reform i've suggested. although i suspect straha and some of the formalists have a point in terms of their  (relatively) undemocratic, corporate state model. basically a state that strives to actually produce things of value (either directly or through encouraging productive industries) and offers basic services to citizen-shareholders while avoiding the invasiveness of both modern democracy and totalitarianism could be an improvement over now. certain countries like singapore have elements of what i'm talking about.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on May 17, 2012, 08:43:52 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.
democracy doesn't work

What is your suggestion for government then, wise one? Surely, an element of popular sovereignty is necessary for the state to be just.
why does popularity = morality? i don't see how something like venezuela or zimbabwe or various majority shia areas would be desirable to have a democracies. indeed democracy is the last thing you would want for a lot of places. as for government it depends on circumstances. i have some sympathies for monarchy/benign aristocracy for pragmatic reasons that i've elaborated on but obviously such a thing is very hard to sell and not culturally relevant. restricting the franchise to people that can pass a civics test and making voting much more localized is one possible reform i've suggested. although i suspect straha and some of the formalists have a point in terms of their  (relatively) undemocratic, corporate state model. a state that strives to actually produce things of value and offers services to citizen-shareholders while avoiding the invasiveness of both modern democracy and totalitarianism could be an improvement over now.

Sup Aristotle. (or Hobbes, I guess)

Really though, an element of popular sovereignty is necessary for the state to be moral: it's dealing with important questions intrinsic to the well being of its citizens. They deserve to have a formalized say and agency over their lives. They deserve to have a decision making body that isn't determined by power alone, which ultimately is what gets to call the shots in any elitist system. At the very least, the public deserves to decide what the structure of their government will be at the start and the ability for initiatives and the like if that constitution is to be changed. These questions of government are too important and all-encompassing to be left to a few people who have no real consequences for their actions.

I don't understand how you could read your suggestions and not see the fallacies in inherent in them. Restricting it to a certain class of people will only serve to have them entrench their interests and nothing more.

edit: what I'm really trying to say is that you probably have a twisted view of human nature for you to hold these archaic views. That sounds mean but it isn't really, I can sympathize at times with your ideas but the fact that they only work when *certain* people are in power shows how tailored there are.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 08:49:46 PM
my main problem with democracy is mostly economic. that is, a) people don't have a rational reason to be informed about decisions they are making for other people (see bryan caplan's work although I'm not a huge fan of him ideological) and b) people have that natural tendency to want to vote themselves benefits beyond the capacity of the state to provide. that doesn't mean i believe in some laissez faire bootstraps ideology but we've all seen how this can and has played out.

it is interesting you are making the argument of 'elitism' though. do you object to the current system on the grounds it isn't direct? i would think that you would be not a fan of referenda and all that given how things have played out in a lot of the western states...


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 09:07:40 PM
i think its just symptomatic of the bogus 'american exceptionalist/greatest nation ever' meme. thats why i think we're going to really burn, impossible to address problems if you get shouted down. the only people that understand the problem are really the fringes.

     Oh, the country will burn. I have a couple of ideas for how to stop it, but they would never work. Such is life.
democracy doesn't work

What is your suggestion for government then, wise one? Surely, an element of popular sovereignty is necessary for the state to be just.
why does popularity = morality? i don't see how something like venezuela or zimbabwe or various majority shia areas would be desirable to have a democracies. indeed democracy is the last thing you would want for a lot of places. as for government it depends on circumstances. i have some sympathies for monarchy/benign aristocracy for pragmatic reasons that i've elaborated on but obviously such a thing is very hard to sell and not culturally relevant. restricting the franchise to people that can pass a civics test and making voting much more localized is one possible reform i've suggested. although i suspect straha and some of the formalists have a point in terms of their  (relatively) undemocratic, corporate state model. a state that strives to actually produce things of value and offers services to citizen-shareholders while avoiding the invasiveness of both modern democracy and totalitarianism could be an improvement over now.

Sup Aristotle. (or Hobbes, I guess)
very astute, those are obvious influences.

Quote
Really though, an element of popular sovereignty is necessary for the state to be moral: it's dealing with important questions intrinsic to the well being of its citizens. They deserve to have a formalized say and agency over their lives. They deserve to have a decision making body that isn't determined by power alone, which ultimately is what gets to call the shots in any elitist system. At the very least, the public deserves to decide what the structure of their government will be at the start and the ability for initiatives and the like if that constitution is to be changed. These questions of government are too important and all-encompassing to be left to a few people who have no real consequences for their actions.
as opposed to the many who feel no consequence for their actions,and are encouraged because the establishment assume the state will just print or borrow the difference indefinitely? i already posted hans hermann hoppe before, he did a decent job going into the flaws associated with the election cycle and how democracy inherently favors short-term decision making compared to older alternatives.

Quote
I don't understand how you could read your suggestions and not see the fallacies in inherent in them. Restricting it to a certain class of people will only serve to have them entrench their interests and nothing more.
that might be true to an extent. but really under the present system to the extent the voter matters (and obviously lobbies and gerrymandering reduces a lot of that here), voting has become a zero sum game.

Quote
edit: what I'm really trying to say is that you probably have a twisted view of human nature for you to hold these archaic views. That sounds mean but it isn't really, I can sympathize at times with your ideas but the fact that they only work when *certain* people are in power shows how tailored there are.
honest liberals tend to admit that liberal democracy only works under certain conditions. i.e. you need a highly informed population, certain values, etc. of course liberals tend to operate under the bizarre assumption of 'equality' and that fundamentally people all value the same things and would if only they were informed. hence the obsession with 'awareness' domestically and spreading 'democracy' to peoples that have never known it.

also note that in practice western liberalism tends to suppress a lot of opinions. for an idea of what i mean look at the prevalence of hate speech laws and speech codes in most of the west and attempts to marginalize the anti liberal elements. also look at how the government in the us is structured.. yes we avoid a lot of the more overt censorship of the western europeans but our government was deliberately designed to discourage challenges to the wealthy, liberal establishment from the get go. even what i have proposed is in a sense, more of a reactionary


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on May 17, 2012, 09:12:56 PM
my main problem with democracy is mostly economic. that is, a) people don't have a rational reason to be informed about decisions they are making for other people (see bryan caplan's work although I'm not a huge fan of him ideological) and b) people have that natural tendency to want to vote themselves benefits beyond the capacity of the state to provide. that doesn't mean i believe in some laissez faire bootstraps ideology but we've all seen how this can and has played out.

it is interesting you are making the argument of 'elitism' though. do you object to the current system on the grounds it isn't direct? i would think that you would be not a fan of referenda and all that given how things have played out in a lot of the western states...

1. Wouldn't that apply to free market economies as well then?
2. Aren't there mechanisms to prevent this?
3. Surely you'd agree that some decisions do need to be made by some sort of third-party arbiter with regards to economics and some framework should be made?

In lots of aspects, yes. One class has far more ability to influence the decisions of the government than the others based off of their disproportionate voice that is enhanced by income. This even plays a role in countries with strict electoral financing rules: the elite just does it wants when it is in office and is shielded from consequences due to their already high stature and their insulation from the rest of society. I am not in favor of initiatives that target people's rights or make specific laws but when it comes to the broad framework of governance in this country, I'm very much in favor of them.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: opebo on May 17, 2012, 09:15:22 PM
     Clearly, everyone who lives within their means & does not whine about the lack of a free ride is an Uncle Tom. Try harder next time.

It is the rich who get the free ride, PiT, only the rich - that is what capitalism is all about.

     The economy also encourages wasting money on frivolities. If you look at the average person's budget, much of what they spend is wasted on expensive gadgets & oversized portions. Most people are stupid & easily led into making poor decisions that worsen their station. I'm not immune to this either, but I strive to improve.

PiT, this is utter nonsense - working class people spend all their money on housing, transport, and food.  They typically have no frivolities - nowadays gadgets are not expensive compared to housing and transport, and 'oversized portions' - what the devil are you talking about?  You mean they ate three peanut butter sandwiches instead of one? 


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: opebo on May 17, 2012, 09:15:25 PM
my main problem with democracy is... people have that natural tendency to want to vote themselves benefits beyond the capacity of the state to provide.

In that case, how do you explain that after decades of supposed democracy, nearly all economic benefits are still the privilege of the owning elite who represent only at the very most half a percent of all votes cast?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on May 17, 2012, 09:22:14 PM
@ mint I agree with your post "certain" values. My idealized form of liberal democracy is an ideology specifically tailored for western countries. Most other cultural centers will have to find a version of it that works for them but still manages to protect certain freedoms and rights. We've seen how that process works and I think the trends are generally positive. However my posts are in relation to a specific framework that tries to maximize popular sovereignty, equality of economic opportunity/a mitigation of the lottery of birth and individual agency. This can be achieved in a variety of ways through many different kinds of systems. I happen to prefer the one that works for my own cultural sphere (which really isn't America if you haven't noticed). I also support hate speech laws and the like because I find those views to be abhorrent and against the spirit of free speech as long as those laws are reasonable.

As for the rest of your post, I tend to agree which is why I support built in mechanisms like a central bank and automatic programs that act counter-cyclically. I'd even support some sort of balanced budget amendment if it was balanced with strong economic law and some flexibility in times of crisis.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 17, 2012, 09:24:24 PM
my main problem with democracy is mostly economic. that is, a) people don't have a rational reason to be informed about decisions they are making for other people (see bryan caplan's work although I'm not a huge fan of him ideological) and b) people have that natural tendency to want to vote themselves benefits beyond the capacity of the state to provide. that doesn't mean i believe in some laissez faire bootstraps ideology but we've all seen how this can and has played out.

it is interesting you are making the argument of 'elitism' though. do you object to the current system on the grounds it isn't direct? i would think that you would be not a fan of referenda and all that given how things have played out in a lot of the western states...

1. Wouldn't that apply to free market economies as well then?

obviously there are externalities and irrational exuberance, sure. and to some extent i think that needs to be regulated. but what markets can do and what governments can do are very different in scale. only western governments working in conjunction with the bankers could have produced something as monstrous as the derivatives trade for example. besides people tend to be better gauges of their own needs than other people.

Quote
2. Aren't there mechanisms to prevent this?
are there? i don't see any. look at most of the usa, the piigs, etc. granted a lot of that was again the result of banker fraud and quasi-privatization (classic example being wisconsin) but there's definitely that drive to make unsustainable promises on the part of politicians. we can almost all agree that certain services should be provided by the state by now, even a lot of the right when pressed.. but restraint is not rewarded. even

Quote
3. Surely you'd agree that some decisions do need to be made by some sort of third-party arbiter with regards to economics and some framework should be made?
that depends on what you mean.

i'll address the rest of your points when i'm not cramming for exams.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on May 17, 2012, 09:29:52 PM
Democracy is incompatible with capitalism.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on May 17, 2012, 09:32:03 PM
     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

     Clearly, everyone who lives within their means & does not whine about the lack of a free ride is an Uncle Tom. Try harder next time.
thats not what i was actually implying. besides how are people supposed to 'live within their means' when the entire economy discourages savings thanks to high inflation and is based on consumption? don't you know your own side's talking points.

     The economy also encourages wasting money on frivolities. If you look at the average person's budget, much of what they spend is wasted on expensive gadgets & oversized portions. Most people are stupid & easily led into making poor decisions that worsen their station. I'm not immune to this either, but I strive to improve.

Yeah, those stupid unwashed masses. It's not like they are conditioned by society or anything (a society that elevates wealth and consumption, but also blames the individual for social failures).


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Lief 🗽 on May 17, 2012, 11:24:49 PM
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

is really all that needs to be said about this delusional idiot with the sign.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: opebo on May 18, 2012, 12:02:25 AM
Democracy is incompatible with capitalism.

Apparently it is.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: dead0man on May 18, 2012, 12:22:22 AM
My favorite part is the instant knee jerk hatred the left has for this guy/gal.  Hard work and thinking things through doesn't work for 100% of people who try it, but it does for 90....95% of them.  You can keep telling yourself it doesn't, I'm sure it makes you feel better.

You may now return to your hating and recreational outrage.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 18, 2012, 12:32:14 AM
     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

     Clearly, everyone who lives within their means & does not whine about the lack of a free ride is an Uncle Tom. Try harder next time.
thats not what i was actually implying. besides how are people supposed to 'live within their means' when the entire economy discourages savings thanks to high inflation and is based on consumption? don't you know your own side's talking points.

     The economy also encourages wasting money on frivolities. If you look at the average person's budget, much of what they spend is wasted on expensive gadgets & oversized portions. Most people are stupid & easily led into making poor decisions that worsen their station. I'm not immune to this either, but I strive to improve.

Yeah, those stupid unwashed masses. It's not like they are conditioned by society or anything (a society that elevates wealth and consumption, but also blames the individual for social failures).

     I already acknowledged that society promotes this sort of behavior & that I am also prone to such impulses, same as everyone else. The problem I see is that so many of us (myself included, to some extent) continue to engage in such behavior, even after it becomes clear that it is self-destructive. Considering the strength of the drive to engage in this manner of behavior, my tendency is to admire people who can resist it.

     I suppose referring to the people who can't resist it as stupid was rather mean, though.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 18, 2012, 12:36:42 AM
My favorite part is the instant knee jerk hatred the left has for this guy/gal.  Hard work and thinking things through doesn't work for 100% of people who try it, but it does for 90....95% of them.  You can keep telling yourself it doesn't, I'm sure it makes you feel better.

You may now return to your hating and recreational outrage.

Yes, if you don't understand life and all your options and responsibilities by 17, well then you're just hopelessly mentally incapable. Those foolish kids deserve to fail. Especially when they've been cajoled down this path of self destruction/assurance by every single authority figure of their most malleable and impressionable years. Inks 'em, they should've been born with more grounded parents. Their fault.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: dead0man on May 18, 2012, 12:40:22 AM
That's some good hating and outrage!  And sarcasm?  Color me impressed!


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 18, 2012, 12:42:44 AM
Ah yes, I appreciate the accolades. Yet no real response to the concept of my retort? Color me unsurprised!


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: dead0man on May 18, 2012, 12:57:40 AM
A.I never suggested one knows everything by age 17 or that not knowing everything should damn you to mediocrity
2.I basically agree with the rest of your post
III.my point was that you and your friends think that hard work and not blowing your money on stupid sh**t won't get you anywhere in life, which is fine, you have a right to be wrong and the more people who sit on their ass feeling sorry for themselves the better off those that bust their ass are (and by the way, I'm much more of ass sitter than an ass buster).  You can think that way if you want, you certainly won't be the first or last.  It's a powerful defense mechanism for your id.  I was laughing at the instant anger the site of someone succeeding brings out in you.  The excuses you guys come up with.  It's all very funny to me.
Four.But there is no point in me defending this guy/gal.  Some of you will come around one day, but it won't be me that turns on that light.  Life experiences will probably do it, or possibly a change of spiel by someone you like and respect.  But not me or someone like me.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 18, 2012, 01:22:16 AM
You absolutely suggested that people should have everything figured out by 17. You said "hard work and thinking things through doesn't work for 100% of people who try it, but it does for 90....95% of them", which to me (considering the context of the response to the conversation) means that whoever is struggling through college or post-graduation has brought that on themselves. 17 is the age when a vast majority of college students make their decision with regards to their higher education. And that decision is dominated by the adults in those peoples' lives. If you read what I've put into this conversation so far, I've been critical of the expectation that the generation raised by that which operated on the concepts of overconsumption and debt-induced lifestyles is supposed to know better at an adolescent age. That's all. And that's who this person is talking about. People that are being blamed for their upbringing. Also, like I said, there is more than enough to be proud of by the people who have been able to support themselves and work harder than anyone to achieve something most take for granted. That doesn't mean they're better than those who had been raised to expect their education to be handed to them. Kids don't know better and shouldn't be the ones who are attacked and held fully responsible for being frivolous and careless with their education.

The ironic aspect of all of this talking down at me is my signature quotes. I firmly believe and actively pursue the perspective of those with powerful life experiences, and yet I'm ridiculed at every crossroads for being a part of the hopeless generation I was born into. It's disgusting to me how much responsibility for what's happening now is being thrust onto the people of my age and demographic. Especially when the criticism of policy enacted before our time is brought into the conversation. Somehow it still comes down to our young kind being showered with privilege and squandering it. We were ushered into this garbage society, we didn't create it. We may not know how to fix it and may be confused as to how we got here, but passing the buck off on the lazy youth by saying things like "you can keep telling yourself it doesn't [work], I'm sure it makes you feel better" is obnoxiously patronizing and spiteful.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on May 18, 2012, 01:37:43 AM
You absolutely suggested that people should have everything figured out by 17. You said "hard work and thinking things through doesn't work for 100% of people who try it, but it does for 90....95% of them", which to me (considering the context of the response to the conversation) means that whoever is struggling through college or post-graduation has brought that on themselves. 17 is the age when a vast majority of college students make their decision with regards to their higher education. And that decision is dominated by the adults in those peoples' lives. If you read what I've put into this conversation so far, I've been critical of the expectation that the generation raised by that which operated on the concepts of overconsumption and debt-induced lifestyles is supposed to know better at an adolescent age. That's all. And that's who this person is talking about. People that are being blamed for their upbringing. Also, like I said, there is more than enough to be proud of by the people who have been able to support themselves and work harder than anyone to achieve something most take for granted. That doesn't mean they're better than those who had been raised to expect their education to be handed to them. Kids don't know better and shouldn't be the ones who are attacked and held fully responsible for being frivolous and careless with their education.

The ironic aspect of all of this talking down at me is my signature quotes. I firmly believe and actively pursue the perspective of those with powerful life experiences, and yet I'm ridiculed at every crossroads for being a part of the hopeless generation I was born into. It's disgusting to me how much responsibility for what's happening now is being thrust onto the people of my age and demographic. Especially when the criticism of policy enacted before our time is brought into the conversation. Somehow it still comes down to our young kind being showered with privilege and squandering it. We were ushered into this garbage society, we didn't create it. We may not know how to fix it and may be confused as to how we got here, but passing the buck off on the lazy youth by saying things like "you can keep telling yourself it doesn't [work], I'm sure it makes you feel better" is obnoxiously patronizing and spiteful.

It's hard to take "personal responsibility" seriously when the types of people who use that phrase on a constant basis generally don't practice it.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 18, 2012, 01:41:24 AM
It's hard to take "personal responsibility" seriously when the types of people who use that phrase on a constant basis generally don't practice it.

Nobody does anymore. Nothing is anybody's fault yet someone will always fix it. Our entire society and those who participate in it are to blame. But it always has to be someone else's fault. It doesn't matter how screwed we are, there's someone to blame and it's no longer an issue because they suck and now that we've established that it's not an issue we actually have to address anymore.

I take "personal responsibility seriously for myself, which is as far as anyone can take it. Once we stop thinking politically about responsibility and the game of avoiding it, our society can potentially begin to repair itself...hopefully. It's not our fault, things happened to us as a people and we've been berated into believing we are to blame by political speak and cultural manipulation. Once we actually start believing in ourselves and not the "people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2h8ujX6T0A)" that run our nation, we have a chance of beating their corporatist domination of our lifestyle choices that leads to excess and irrational spending behavior.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 18, 2012, 05:09:22 AM
Democracy is incompatible with capitalism.

I think you got that one backwards. It's only compatible with capitalism.

I agree with Dead0man that it's funny how people hate others for providing for themselves. Oh noes!

It's not my impression that the Occupy people = the people most screwed over by the system through no fault of their own.

Furthermore, regardless of the system and its workings the main explanatory variable for personal success and happiness has always been and will always be one's own attitude and decisions. Complaining about injustice or unfairness, even if justified, is never a very good idea.

That's a thing that many on the left don't seem to get. It might be true that coming from a certain background makes it harder for you to succeed in life, for example. But sitting down complaining about how your background doomed you to failure is going to make things much worse for you.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on May 18, 2012, 05:50:55 AM
This thread was going so well with facile argumentation and needless tit-for-tat over slogans and then Gustaf had to come along and ruin it with his "serious person" shtick. So can we all get back to original point of this thread - noticing how much of a giant douche the guy in the OP is.

So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: minionofmidas on May 18, 2012, 06:23:43 AM
Blah blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah.
Nah, he's on scholarships. Interesting that he does not seem to have to pay them back eventually, so they're gifts.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: golden on May 18, 2012, 06:25:50 AM
O -- M -- G

I didn't know that I'd be provoking such a storm when uploading that picture.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: dead0man on May 18, 2012, 06:40:16 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creater class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on May 18, 2012, 07:24:29 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 18, 2012, 08:04:19 AM
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

is really all that needs to be said about this delusional idiot with the sign.

I'd been confused by this statement. Until you posted I thought that it was an Eric Massa joke.

I thought the same thing, until I read it again.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: dead0man on May 18, 2012, 11:28:02 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?
If he/she considers the "99%" to be a bunch of lazy jerkoffs blocking traffic and destroying the bathrooms of local establishments, sure, why not?  Would it be any worse than the superiority shown in this thread going in the other direction?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 18, 2012, 09:19:04 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

I hereby take offense to this.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 19, 2012, 12:02:23 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

I hereby take offense to this.
did you seriously just report me over that one? wow.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on May 19, 2012, 04:20:36 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.

massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

I hereby take offense to this.

Oh come on.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Napoleon on May 19, 2012, 04:23:06 PM
Individual Lolitics


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 20, 2012, 05:42:50 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?

I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of the sign. I would interpret it as saying "I'm not part of the OWS movement and do not share their ideals" which here is short-handed as saying "I'm not the 99%"

You're assuming that the person is using 99% the way the OWS movement does (i.e. the bottom 99% of the wealth distribution). Given the context I doubt that.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 20, 2012, 05:44:38 AM
This thread was going so well with facile argumentation and needless tit-for-tat over slogans and then Gustaf had to come along and ruin it with his "serious person" shtick. So can we all get back to original point of this thread - noticing how much of a giant douche the guy in the OP is.

So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.

You will thank me when you grow up. ;)


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on May 20, 2012, 06:40:01 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?

I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of the sign. I would interpret it as saying "I'm not part of the OWS movement and do not share their ideals" which here is short-handed as saying "I'm not the 99%"

You're assuming that the person is using 99% the way the OWS movement does (i.e. the bottom 99% of the wealth distribution). Given the context I doubt that.

The "...and whether or not you are is YOUR decision" suggests otherwise. Of course it's your decision whether or not you take part to OWS, but it is so obvious that it wouldn't be worth saying. Rather, it seems to imply that the poor are poor because of their own laziness.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on May 20, 2012, 08:47:20 AM

this lol


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Mechaman on May 20, 2012, 09:07:57 AM
I'm going with the moderate hero option on this one.

Although I do agree about hard work helping people succeed I find this person's lack of humility disturbing.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on May 21, 2012, 09:00:00 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?

I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of the sign. I would interpret it as saying "I'm not part of the OWS movement and do not share their ideals" which here is short-handed as saying "I'm not the 99%"

You're assuming that the person is using 99% the way the OWS movement does (i.e. the bottom 99% of the wealth distribution). Given the context I doubt that.

I'm not assuming anything except from the tone which his message exudes excludes him from any other personal social rating of mine other than "clearly a douche". After all, why go to all this effort to make such a laboured and uninteresting point?

As for growing up, I tried that once and I thought it was overrated.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: freefair on May 21, 2012, 10:32:13 AM
In a perfect world all people would have that work ethic.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: golden on May 21, 2012, 06:13:38 PM
In a perfect world all people would have that work ethic.

In a perfect world all people were enabled to translate their potential work ethics into action.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 22, 2012, 09:54:29 AM
I'm going with the moderate hero option on this one.

Although I do agree about hard work helping people succeed I find this person's lack of humility disturbing.

It's not a lack of humility. It's a reaction to the constant whinging of those without the drive to work hard. It's not bragging as much as it is a counterpoint.

     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

I hereby take offense to this.
did you seriously just report me over that one? wow.

Yes, I did, for needless belittlement of those with a work ethic that differs from yours, and the unnecessary racial overtones. While I think his work ethic is great and your clearly disagree, I find the comparison to an "Uncle Tom", a whole mindset I despise passionately, to simply be over the line.

I find no fault with what he/she wrote. Again, it follows and mimics the language of others who went about describing their struggles as the "99%" and really is supposed to be antithetical to what they've said. All pretension in the language stems from that of the originals:

()

His greatest fault is choosing "a moderately priced, in-state college". That, if anything, shall be his downfall. A poor choice, if he could have done better- we'll see that the divergence in incomes based upon university will increase dramatically over these next years and in the long run costs will very easily be recompensed for leading private universities.

And as a further note, I would not describe the example I've given above as "the constant whinging of those without the drive to work hard"; she has legitimate qualms but is misdiagnosing the problem. I chose this example because of the the clear parallels in form, there are others where the fault of the author is somewhat more apparent, but ultimately he/she who wrote the letter which we are discussing is reacting to the more egegious anti-capitalist, anti-responsibility overtones of the OWS movement as opposed to particular personal stories.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on May 22, 2012, 04:38:47 PM
     A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

I hereby take offense to this.
did you seriously just report me over that one? wow.

Yes, I did, for needless belittlement of those with a work ethic that differs from yours, and the unnecessary racial overtones. While I think his work ethic is great and your clearly disagree, I find the comparison to an "Uncle Tom", a whole mindset I despise passionately, to simply be over the line.

Hit a little too close to home, then?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 04:58:08 PM
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
massa treats me real good! i don't know what all y'all is complaining about

I hereby take offense to this.

Some things never change.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:13:21 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:15:15 PM
By the way folks- hard work DOES make some one superior! Sorry I'm not sorry to say it- I don't believe being wealthy does or any racial or ethnic or religious belief does... but working hard makes some one better then another who doesn't


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 05:23:09 PM
By the way folks- hard work DOES make some one superior! Sorry I'm not sorry to say it- I don't believe being wealthy does or any racial or ethnic or religious belief does... but working hard makes some one better then another who doesn't

Superiority is subjective.

Also, attention whoring about how hard you work automatically negates much of its value imho.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 05:24:16 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 22, 2012, 05:29:15 PM
So you're trying to say I'm not black enough? That's a first! But forget about me. Read the rest of my post.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:29:40 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...
I'm talking more of the methods and side beliefs- such as disruptive "mic checks", the radical anti-Americanism, etc... there is social inequality- every one believes that...but these people give me memories of those in the 60s who simply hated authority


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 05:31:42 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...
I'm talking more of the methods and side beliefs- such as disruptive "mic checks", the radical anti-Americanism, etc... there is social inequality- every one believes that...but these people give me memories of those in the 60s who simply hated authority

Except they have an aim. I see both Occupy and the Tea Party as only addressing one side of the problem, for the record - the government and corporate elite are so entwined that they should both be the subject of these protests.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:31:51 PM
So you're trying to say I'm not black enough? That's a first! But forget about me. Read the rest of my post.
Simfan- I dont know who said or implied that...but to do so is insulting to you. I am sorry some one here would be rude- or RACIST enough- to imply that your views make you less of a black man then a liberal


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 22, 2012, 05:32:13 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.
So you're trying to say I'm not black enough? That's a first! But forget about me. Read the rest of my post.
Simfan- I dont know who said or implied that...but to do so is insulting to you. I am sorry some one here would be rude- or RACIST enough- to imply that your views make you less of a black man then a liberal

I was going to say I was being hyperbolic but Marokai and Windis' posts certainly crossed a line...


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 05:34:50 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:35:07 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...
I'm talking more of the methods and side beliefs- such as disruptive "mic checks", the radical anti-Americanism, etc... there is social inequality- every one believes that...but these people give me memories of those in the 60s who simply hated authority

Except they have an aim. I see both Occupy and the Tea Party as only addressing one side of the problem, for the record - the government and corporate elite are so entwined that they should both be the subject of these protests.
I think that's a fair statement and I agree... I simply find Occupy to be disgusting. It sounds anecdotal but compare a park after a Tea Party protest and a square after an Occupy protest...the former is clean and you couldn't tell any one was there- the other is trashed


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 05:36:03 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding
implying i'm a 'liberal' is pretty hilarious


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 05:36:50 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...
I'm talking more of the methods and side beliefs- such as disruptive "mic checks", the radical anti-Americanism, etc... there is social inequality- every one believes that...but these people give me memories of those in the 60s who simply hated authority

Except they have an aim. I see both Occupy and the Tea Party as only addressing one side of the problem, for the record - the government and corporate elite are so entwined that they should both be the subject of these protests.
I think that's a fair statement and I agree... I simply find Occupy to be disgusting. It sounds anecdotal but compare a park after a Tea Party protest and a square after an Occupy protest...the former is clean and you couldn't tell any one was there- the other is trashed

On the other hand, the Tea Party have engaged in racism, bizarro conspiracy theories and other such activities... not a group you want to defend in particular.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:37:01 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.
Yes you are- you are a human resource. That's the way it works...they pay you and they can choose to stop paying you. I've let go many an employee for  malfeasance, negligence, intoxication on the job, criminal records, etc...


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:37:51 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding
implying i'm a 'liberal' is pretty hilarious
Well then I expand my statement to you include you and frankly I find it even more surprising that a conservative would bash a fella for working his butt off and being proud of it


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 05:39:49 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.
Yes you are- you are a human resource. That's the way it works...they pay you and they can choose to stop paying you. I've let go many an employee for  malfeasance, negligence, intoxication on the job, criminal records, etc...

You can work hard all yr life and then have the company let you go in favour of outsourcing all the jobs to the Third World. The current system owes no loyalty to humanity or nationality - corporatism is utterly psychotic and it needs to be ended, before it leads to a race to the bottom for wages, as it already has begun to since the 1980s...


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 05:49:59 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.
Yes you are- you are a human resource. That's the way it works...they pay you and they can choose to stop paying you. I've let go many an employee for  malfeasance, negligence, intoxication on the job, criminal records, etc...
maybe people don't want everything to be commodified. maybe certain things like the family have intrinsic value and should be protected by the state or nation/tribe/community. you obviously did not read my previous posts though which already explained my problem obviously had nothing to do with this person's alleged work ethic and everything to do with his apologism for a system that is literally robbing us and destroying anything of lasting value within our culture.

oh and btw i have made it clear before i don't like occupy, if it was actually directed against the criminal banks i would support it but it clearly is not. just like the tea party was/is clearly not about 'fiscal responsibility.'


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 22, 2012, 05:55:59 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.
Yes you are- you are a human resource. That's the way it works...they pay you and they can choose to stop paying you. I've let go many an employee for  malfeasance, negligence, intoxication on the job, criminal records, etc...
maybe people don't want everything to be commodified. maybe certain things like the family have intrinsic value and should be protected by the state or nation/tribe/community. you obviously did not read my previous posts though which already explained my problem obviously had nothing to do with this person's alleged work ethic and everything to do with his apologism for a system that is literally robbing us and destroying anything of lasting value within our culture.

oh and btw i have made it clear before i don't like occupy, if it was actually directed against the criminal banks i would support it but it clearly is not. just like the tea party was/is clearly not about 'fiscal responsibility.'
Fair enough- and I agree that the family ought to be protected...and I agree with WinDis that people ought to be respected more and if that requires laws to be passed to do so...that is an improtant discussion to have


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 05:57:43 PM
sorry if that comes off as self righteous


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 06:04:39 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.
Yes you are- you are a human resource. That's the way it works...they pay you and they can choose to stop paying you. I've let go many an employee for  malfeasance, negligence, intoxication on the job, criminal records, etc...
maybe people don't want everything to be commodified. maybe certain things like the family have intrinsic value and should be protected by the state or nation/tribe/community. you obviously did not read my previous posts though which already explained my problem obviously had nothing to do with this person's alleged work ethic and everything to do with his apologism for a system that is literally robbing us and destroying anything of lasting value within our culture.

oh and btw i have made it clear before i don't like occupy, if it was actually directed against the criminal banks i would support it but it clearly is not. just like the tea party was/is clearly not about 'fiscal responsibility.'
Fair enough- and I agree that the family ought to be protected...and I agree with WinDis that people ought to be respected more and if that requires laws to be passed to do so...that is an improtant discussion to have

For conservatives, I suppose, the important conflict is between their duties to the capitalist hierachy/order and their duties to tradition/family etc... my own belief (as a non-conservative with some sympathy for certain tenets of it, nonetheless) tends towards the monopolization and commodity fetishization of everything as being one of the worst culprits in what social conservatives would call "moral degradation"


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Simfan34 on May 22, 2012, 06:33:17 PM
It is astounding to me how liberals can bash this person because he or she chooses not to identify with the radical Occupy protests... this is a person putting himself thru school doing the best he can for himself. He is making every right decision but because he ignores the talking points of a leftist group- you all disregard him

Truly astounding

No-one is disregarding him, we just know he's talking nonsense.

Also, if the belief that social inequality is unjust is now "radical" then I despair for our society...

There is nothing nonsensical about hard work. What we have here is ridicule of those that defy the zeitgeist- not so much about what he does but what he says, the refusal to join in the whinging. Society today is all talk and no action, and we see him lambasted for his words and his action.

You're mixing things up here. We all respect those who work hard. What we don't respect is those who proceed to attention whore and pour hatred on those who are less fortunate, as this whole movement seems to be aiming at. If you have a job, great, you're lucky. Just remember, you're a resource that they can do away with at any point they like.
Yes you are- you are a human resource. That's the way it works...they pay you and they can choose to stop paying you. I've let go many an employee for  malfeasance, negligence, intoxication on the job, criminal records, etc...
maybe people don't want everything to be commodified. maybe certain things like the family have intrinsic value and should be protected by the state or nation/tribe/community. you obviously did not read my previous posts though which already explained my problem obviously had nothing to do with this person's alleged work ethic and everything to do with his apologism for a system that is literally robbing us and destroying anything of lasting value within our culture.

oh and btw i have made it clear before i don't like occupy, if it was actually directed against the criminal banks i would support it but it clearly is not. just like the tea party was/is clearly not about 'fiscal responsibility.'
Fair enough- and I agree that the family ought to be protected...and I agree with WinDis that people ought to be respected more and if that requires laws to be passed to do so...that is an improtant discussion to have

For conservatives, I suppose, the important conflict is between their duties to the capitalist hierachy/order and their duties to tradition/family etc... my own belief (as a non-conservative with some sympathy for certain tenets of it, nonetheless) tends towards the monopolization and commodity fetishization of everything as being one of the worst culprits in what social conservatives would call "moral degradation"

I strongly agree with this.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 06:57:05 PM
i should point out i'm not blaming 'capitalism' entirely for this. if anything i agree with a lot of the (relatively) mainstream right-wing criticism of the us government encouraging the worst excesses of the banks, and the modern welfare state producing a lot of perverse incentives. i suspect a lot of our problems would be diminished if the government governed according to basic microeconomics.

however i think its a bad idea to view people in entirely econocentric terms. if that sort of thinking doesn't work under marxist systems it won't work under 'capitalism' either. people are not 100% rational. they are not all equal in ability. they do not all have the same wants. they are not merely your workers. they do not conform to neat little models. ironically for all people tend to criticize them for being 'free market fundamentalists' libertarians tend to at least understand that much, along side the other elements on 'the fringes.'


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 07:03:39 PM
i should point out i'm not blaming 'capitalism' entirely for this. if anything i agree with a lot of the (relatively) mainstream right-wing criticism of the us government encouraging the worst excesses of the banks, and the modern welfare state producing a lot of perverse incentives. i suspect a lot of our problems would be diminished if the government governed according to basic microeconomics.

however i think its a bad idea to view people in entirely econocentric terms. if that sort of thinking doesn't work under marxist systems it won't work under 'capitalism' either. people are not rational. they are not all equal. they do not all have the same wants. they do not conform to neat little models. they are not merely your workers. ironically for all people tend to criticize them for being 'free market fundamentalists' libertarians tend to at least understand that much, along side the other elements on 'the fringes.'

The main problem I have with yr. argument (as much as we agree, which should be bizarre given that we supposedly lie on opposite sides of the political spectrum) is the acceptance of all inequality however. I still hold, as most would, that equality under the law is a key tenet of any modern society and I also believe that social/class inequalities are responsible for much of the social conflict in "free market" countries. The problem then, of course, is the difficulties in making a "one size fits all" model for tackling social inequality, given that it only seems to work ideally in monocultural nations such as Sweden...


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 07:11:45 PM
true equality is undesirable and impossible because of our natural differences in talents and preferences. it is also clearly a subjective concept that can not be  measured totally objectively. that obviously does not mean that i disagree with the modern consensus of providing the poor with access to say, public/subsidized healthcare and education and the ideal of equal treatment under the law. just that i think it is potentially tyrannical not to mention destructive to the majority to attempt to impose 'equality' beyond those levels. even under the things i mentioned there exist differences in coverage and quality in all of the developed world.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 22, 2012, 07:14:23 PM
true equality is undesirable and impossible because of our natural differences in talents and preferences. it is also clearly a totally subjective concept that can not be totally measured objectively. that obviously does not mean that i disagree with the modern consensus of providing the poor with access to say, public/subsidized healthcare and education and the ideal of equal treatment under the law. just that i think it is potentially tyrannical not to mention destructive to the majority to attempt to impose 'equality' beyond those bare minimum levels.

I don't believe in "true equality" either... I don't think many people do. But everyone is equal in some terms, as even Hobbes pointed out, because everyone has the potential to kill another person (personally, through machinations/conspiracy with others etc.). What I'm saying is, the lesser the gap between the top and bottom of society the better, because a highly hierachial order inevitably breeds conflict.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 07:43:05 PM
if that is not the goal then why the endless pursuit and use of it rhetorically by the left? (well a lot of the 'right' too...) anyway wormy already posted something pretty good awhile back about how savings affects the income inequality rate and why that isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 22, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
and that's about it for tonight unfortunately. i need to go study some more, this break has gone on long enough.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 23, 2012, 03:41:13 AM
if that is not the goal then why the endless pursuit and use of it rhetorically by the left? (well a lot of the 'right' too...) anyway wormy already posted something pretty good awhile back about how savings affects the income inequality rate and why that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

My aim here, like I said, would not be full equality, but to narrow the gap as far as is possible.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 23, 2012, 03:53:51 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?

I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of the sign. I would interpret it as saying "I'm not part of the OWS movement and do not share their ideals" which here is short-handed as saying "I'm not the 99%"

You're assuming that the person is using 99% the way the OWS movement does (i.e. the bottom 99% of the wealth distribution). Given the context I doubt that.

The "...and whether or not you are is YOUR decision" suggests otherwise. Of course it's your decision whether or not you take part to OWS, but it is so obvious that it wouldn't be worth saying. Rather, it seems to imply that the poor are poor because of their own laziness.

Well, ok it probably means something like "the angry college students with debt who make up a large part of the OWS movement" then. :P


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 23, 2012, 03:57:49 AM
So let me remind all serious people out there, the problem with the OP is not he is a hard-worker but that he boasts of being in the 1% and implies that those that aren't are lazy. He is a moral wazzle. And pretty typical of the self-proclaimed wealth creator class.
I don't think the kid was trying to say he/she was part of the 1%.  The way I read it was that he/she was not part of the "99%".

Maybe so, but is that something worth boasting about? Something worth developing a sense of superiority on?

I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of the sign. I would interpret it as saying "I'm not part of the OWS movement and do not share their ideals" which here is short-handed as saying "I'm not the 99%"

You're assuming that the person is using 99% the way the OWS movement does (i.e. the bottom 99% of the wealth distribution). Given the context I doubt that.

I'm not assuming anything except from the tone which his message exudes excludes him from any other personal social rating of mine other than "clearly a douche". After all, why go to all this effort to make such a laboured and uninteresting point?

As for growing up, I tried that once and I thought it was overrated.

As is pointed out in this thread, the style of the note mimicks a style employed by the OWS people. Which is why it ends the way it does as well. So I think you're reading too much into it.

Maybe you need to try, just a little bit harder.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 23, 2012, 04:00:00 AM
true equality is undesirable and impossible because of our natural differences in talents and preferences. it is also clearly a totally subjective concept that can not be totally measured objectively. that obviously does not mean that i disagree with the modern consensus of providing the poor with access to say, public/subsidized healthcare and education and the ideal of equal treatment under the law. just that i think it is potentially tyrannical not to mention destructive to the majority to attempt to impose 'equality' beyond those bare minimum levels.

I don't believe in "true equality" either... I don't think many people do. But everyone is equal in some terms, as even Hobbes pointed out, because everyone has the potential to kill another person (personally, through machinations/conspiracy with others etc.). What I'm saying is, the lesser the gap between the top and bottom of society the better, because a highly hierachial order inevitably breeds conflict.

You don't think that constantly forcing people to conform to a societal structure you decided was ideal is something that would breed conflict? More specifically, you don't think that defining all resources as potentially belonging to anyone, i.e. everyone having a claim to everything is something that breeds conflict?


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 23, 2012, 04:06:55 AM
true equality is undesirable and impossible because of our natural differences in talents and preferences. it is also clearly a totally subjective concept that can not be totally measured objectively. that obviously does not mean that i disagree with the modern consensus of providing the poor with access to say, public/subsidized healthcare and education and the ideal of equal treatment under the law. just that i think it is potentially tyrannical not to mention destructive to the majority to attempt to impose 'equality' beyond those bare minimum levels.

I don't believe in "true equality" either... I don't think many people do. But everyone is equal in some terms, as even Hobbes pointed out, because everyone has the potential to kill another person (personally, through machinations/conspiracy with others etc.). What I'm saying is, the lesser the gap between the top and bottom of society the better, because a highly hierachial order inevitably breeds conflict.

You don't think that constantly forcing people to conform to a societal structure you decided was ideal is something that would breed conflict? More specifically, you don't think that defining all resources as potentially belonging to anyone, i.e. everyone having a claim to everything is something that breeds conflict?

What do you mean exactly? I'm citing the argument that more equal societies tend to be happier, Sweden being a good case in point.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: Gustaf on May 23, 2012, 04:34:07 AM
true equality is undesirable and impossible because of our natural differences in talents and preferences. it is also clearly a totally subjective concept that can not be totally measured objectively. that obviously does not mean that i disagree with the modern consensus of providing the poor with access to say, public/subsidized healthcare and education and the ideal of equal treatment under the law. just that i think it is potentially tyrannical not to mention destructive to the majority to attempt to impose 'equality' beyond those bare minimum levels.

I don't believe in "true equality" either... I don't think many people do. But everyone is equal in some terms, as even Hobbes pointed out, because everyone has the potential to kill another person (personally, through machinations/conspiracy with others etc.). What I'm saying is, the lesser the gap between the top and bottom of society the better, because a highly hierachial order inevitably breeds conflict.

You don't think that constantly forcing people to conform to a societal structure you decided was ideal is something that would breed conflict? More specifically, you don't think that defining all resources as potentially belonging to anyone, i.e. everyone having a claim to everything is something that breeds conflict?

What do you mean exactly? I'm citing the argument that more equal societies tend to be happier, Sweden being a good case in point.

But that's not true indefinitely. Sweden is still a fundamentally capitalist society. And equality is not exogenous either. If you're forcing it through heavy intervention that in itself is a source for conflict.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: k-onmmunist on May 23, 2012, 04:57:49 AM
true equality is undesirable and impossible because of our natural differences in talents and preferences. it is also clearly a totally subjective concept that can not be totally measured objectively. that obviously does not mean that i disagree with the modern consensus of providing the poor with access to say, public/subsidized healthcare and education and the ideal of equal treatment under the law. just that i think it is potentially tyrannical not to mention destructive to the majority to attempt to impose 'equality' beyond those bare minimum levels.

I don't believe in "true equality" either... I don't think many people do. But everyone is equal in some terms, as even Hobbes pointed out, because everyone has the potential to kill another person (personally, through machinations/conspiracy with others etc.). What I'm saying is, the lesser the gap between the top and bottom of society the better, because a highly hierachial order inevitably breeds conflict.

You don't think that constantly forcing people to conform to a societal structure you decided was ideal is something that would breed conflict? More specifically, you don't think that defining all resources as potentially belonging to anyone, i.e. everyone having a claim to everything is something that breeds conflict?

What do you mean exactly? I'm citing the argument that more equal societies tend to be happier, Sweden being a good case in point.

But that's not true indefinitely. Sweden is still a fundamentally capitalist society. And equality is not exogenous either. If you're forcing it through heavy intervention that in itself is a source for conflict.

I know it's capitalist. I never said what I was supporting wasn't, it's simply a managed form of capitalism.


Title: Re: Your opinion of this person?
Post by: courts on May 24, 2012, 02:00:59 PM
and I just got moderated for "hatefulness" for what was clearly not a racist comment, unless lief and marokai hate them some blacks... this site is out of control.