Talk Elections

General Politics => U.S. General Discussion => Topic started by: morgieb on July 20, 2012, 06:10:59 AM



Title: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: morgieb on July 20, 2012, 06:10:59 AM
Wow, horrible news :(

http://www.smh.com.au/world/14-killed-in-mass-shooting-at-batman-screening-20120720-22fdw.html (http://www.smh.com.au/world/14-killed-in-mass-shooting-at-batman-screening-20120720-22fdw.html)


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Eraserhead on July 20, 2012, 06:17:24 AM
Not exactly the kind of news I want to hear about as someone who works at a theater.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 20, 2012, 06:39:18 AM
Positively terrible news! Not that far from Littleton either. Makes it all the worse for the local populace.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 20, 2012, 07:06:49 AM
CBS This Morning now says that the death toll has been reduced to 12 from 14.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: John Dibble on July 20, 2012, 08:41:26 AM
Suspect is in custody and he may have put bombs in his apartment and in the mall parking lot.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/07/20/157090121/real-life-horror-many-killed-dozens-wounded-at-colorado-movie-theater


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Wiz in Wis on July 20, 2012, 10:54:53 AM
You know what America needs... some platitudes about how we're all hurting, followed by the NRA becoming ultra-defensive, a bunch of dick's saying "Guns don't kill people, people do," a proposal by a big city, minority Democrat to restrict the number of bazookas that a citizen can own to 10, and absolutely, positively, no action on guns. That'll do the trick!


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on July 20, 2012, 11:04:55 AM
You know what America needs... some platitudes about how we're all hurting, followed by the NRA becoming ultra-defensive, a bunch of dick's saying "Guns don't kill people, people do," a proposal by a big city, minority Democrat to restrict the number of bazookas that a citizen can own to 10, and absolutely, positively, no action on guns. That'll do the trick!
I think your post may be one of the lowest I have ever seen here. Don't politicize this.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on July 20, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
You know what America needs... some platitudes about how we're all hurting, followed by the NRA becoming ultra-defensive, a bunch of dick's saying "Guns don't kill people, people do," a proposal by a big city, minority Democrat to restrict the number of bazookas that a citizen can own to 10, and absolutely, positively, no action on guns. That'll do the trick!
I think your post may be one of the lowest I have ever seen here. Don't politicize this.
...
How is it low to decry our country's moral ineptitude on an issue that could save hundreds of lives and dramatically reduce crime? I'm sick and tired of reading stories on the news about school shootings as if they're common, dime a dozen events; events that we have to accept in this brave new world where guns are easily obtainable in the name of "liberty".

The lives of these human beings is worth more than a Paulist buzzword.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Wiz in Wis on July 20, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
You know what America needs... some platitudes about how we're all hurting, followed by the NRA becoming ultra-defensive, a bunch of dick's saying "Guns don't kill people, people do," a proposal by a big city, minority Democrat to restrict the number of bazookas that a citizen can own to 10, and absolutely, positively, no action on guns. That'll do the trick!
I think your post may be one of the lowest I have ever seen here. Don't politicize this.
Oh, I'm so very sorry to have upset your delicate sensibilities! Why shouldn't this be polticized? As Mayor Michael Bloomberg just said a few hours ago:

Quote
"You know, soothing words are nice, but maybe it's time that the two people who want to be President of the United States stand up and tell us what they are going to do about it, because this is obviously a problem across the country. And everybody always says, 'Isn't it tragic,' and you know, we look for was the guy, as you said, maybe trying to recreate Batman. I mean, there are so many murders with guns every day, it's just got to stop. And instead of the two people - President Obama and Governor Romney - talking in broad things about they want to make the world a better place, okay, tell us how. And this is a real problem. No matter where you stand on the Second Amendment, no matter where you stand on guns, we have a right to hear from both of them concretely, not just in generalities - specifically what are they going to do about guns?"

And I think Michael Grunwald on TIME also makes a valid point when he says,
 
Quote
If advocates or experts or even politicians think their policy ideas can prevent the next Aurora—by preventing potential killers from obtaining guns, by making sure potential victims can carry guns, or by some other method—then by all means, now is the time to spread the word. Pretty soon, the pundits will be back to “you people” and “you didn’t build this” and whatever new verbal gaffe overwhelms the competition to lead the free world.

The past 30 years have seen the GOP position on guns essentially come as close to a pure victory on policy as any issue can be won. As a result, we don't even dare suggest that the response to this tragedy include a hard look at gun control, or American political culture's compliance in essentially saying "Well, since we can't stop every kook, why even bother trying"

Screw you, I'll politicize something that is inherently tied to politics. Why shouldn't 12 people dying needlessly lead to change? Because too many Americans have a gun fetish to actually pass laws that might prevent these frickin massacres every few months!?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Vote UKIP! on July 20, 2012, 11:44:08 AM
You know what America needs... some platitudes about how we're all hurting, followed by the NRA becoming ultra-defensive, a bunch of dick's saying "Guns don't kill people, people do," a proposal by a big city, minority Democrat to restrict the number of bazookas that a citizen can own to 10, and absolutely, positively, no action on guns. That'll do the trick!
I think your post may be one of the lowest I have ever seen here. Don't politicize this.

Sanchez is right.

12 people are DEAD! Have some respect for the dead, and resist any impulse to politicize this travesty like the Left tends to do.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Miles on July 20, 2012, 11:45:00 AM
RIP to the victims.

This was simply the result of attacks on our Judeo-Christian values.  (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html)


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on July 20, 2012, 11:49:54 AM
I refuse to see human life sacrificed on an altar to appease the pantheon of the gun gods that rule America.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: TJ in Oregon on July 20, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
Does anyone know what the motive was here?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: The Mikado on July 20, 2012, 12:00:06 PM
Does anyone know what the motive was here?

Some men just want to see the world burn.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 20, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
I didn't like the part of the story I read where the guy's momma was seemingly so "unsurprised" if you will.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: bgwah on July 20, 2012, 12:15:31 PM
I didn't like the part of the story I read where the guy's momma was seemingly so "unsurprised" if you will.

That's not an uncommon response.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 20, 2012, 12:17:26 PM
God bless the victim's families and the wounded
Rest in peace to the victims


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 20, 2012, 12:41:39 PM
Bless those whose lives were lost today and their families.

I understand Wiz's position on this, but I don't think that bringing up politics in a thread like this (especially immediately after the incident) is exactly the classiest thing to do...


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on July 20, 2012, 12:47:26 PM
Phil continues to be one of the worst posters on this forum: nothing you say is substantial or worthwhile.

After your earlier post in this thread, that's a rich statement, kid!

And I'm sorry if my posts don't meet your liking! I should be ashamed!

That post was for fun in an attempt to experiment with wordplay, you novice.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: dead0man on July 20, 2012, 01:01:31 PM
Stay classy gun control nuts.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Tender Branson on July 20, 2012, 01:07:46 PM
That suxx.

Apparently the suspect was a Denver Med School student.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: opebo on July 20, 2012, 01:11:03 PM
One cannot even mention events like these without 'politicizing' them, at least without being absurd.  The political meaning and implications of these events are obvious to anyone, and to pretend that meaning doesn't exist is sheer doublethink.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Wiz in Wis on July 20, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
Bless those whose lives were lost today and their families.

I understand Wiz's position on this, but I don't think that bringing up politics in a thread like this (especially immediately after the incident) is exactly the classiest thing to do...

If we only talked about gun policy when there wasn't some sort of gun tragedy no one would care. That's like saying we shouldn't have talked about the levies in New Orleans after Katrina, until sufficient grieving time had passed. No, we should talk about it now.

Besides, this is a political board. Clearly I am upset about the victims' pain and suffering, hence my desire to point out that politics is a way to deal with gun violence, and a good portion of this board and the country at large refuses to talk about it, behaving as if it's a settled issue and these deaths are just part of price of "freedom". If we want to avoid these tragedies in the future, we need to address a lot of underlying issues that aren't being otherwise discussed.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: J. J. on July 20, 2012, 01:19:22 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting

The shooter was James Eagan Holmes, 24, a graduate of UC, Riverside and a Ph D candidate at University of Colorado Medical.  Wow.

They say there is a thin line between genius and insanity.  Oh, God, those poor people.  :(


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on July 20, 2012, 01:26:23 PM
A thread about a massacre and you were just posting something "for fun?" But I'm supposedly the vermin. What a world...

Try not to take yourself too seriously pal, this is the internet and you're not a plastic news anchor or candidate for higher office.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Small Business Owner of Any Repute on July 20, 2012, 01:29:03 PM
Consider this your warning: Personal attacks are not welcome in this thread, of all places. I've deleted a bunch of comments, infracted some, and won't hesitate to do it again or lock this thread.

And of course this shooting will be politicized. Guns are an inherently political thing. You can talk politics here, but please do it respectfully with a mind that people died here and the bodies are still warm. And at the same time, let's not all rush to feign outrage over others' political beliefs to score points -- none of you are running for office, and none of you are PR gurus. Give it a rest.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 20, 2012, 01:31:43 PM
A thread about a massacre and you were just posting something "for fun?" But I'm supposedly the vermin. What a world...

Try not to take yourself too seriously pal, this is the internet and you're not a plastic news anchor or candidate for higher office.

...says the genius that said I don't talk about politics enough on here. Wow.

Kid, listen, you can't have it both ways. Like usual, you've been thoroughly owned. You're dismissed.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Oakvale on July 20, 2012, 01:43:03 PM

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof. When a maniac massacred sixteen people in Dunblane in 1996, there was a near-unanimous consensus that the UK needed to tighten its gun control - and they did, with universal public support.

Only in America is the reaction to things like this a horrified panic at the very idea that there might have to be the slightest scrap of extra regulation on guns, because, lest we forget, it's a God-given right to allow lunatics to own the kind of tools that let them murder people with wild abandon.

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse people of "politicizing" this - as if this doesn't inherently have political ramifications and, more to the point, as if your very post wasn't a sleazy and political attack on those of us who think the sheer amount of violent firearms massacres in the United States might - just might - warrant a re-examination of the law.

The same goes for Sanchez and Sanders - spare us the phony outrage. Please. The idea that this incident can be shrugged off as "huh, it was just some nut, what you gonna do?" as if it's merely a sad but predictable and even acceptable event in a healthy society. This isn't normal.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: bgwah on July 20, 2012, 01:50:16 PM

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof. When a maniac massacred sixteen people in Dunblane in 1996, there was a near-unanimous consensus that the UK needed to tighten its gun control - and they did, with universal public support.

Only in America is the reaction to things like this a horrified panic at the very idea that there might have to be the slightest scrap of extra regulation on guns, because, lest we forget, it's a God-given right to allow lunatics to own the kind of tools that let them murder people with wild abandon.

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse people of "politicizing" this - as if this doesn't inherently have political ramifications and, more to the point, as if your very post wasn't a sleazy and political attack on those of us who think the sheer amount of violent firearms massacres in the United States might - just might - warrant a re-examination of the law.

The same goes for Sanchez and Sanders - spare us the phony outrage. Please. The idea that this incident can be shrugged off as "huh, it was just some nut, what you gonna do?" as if it's merely a sad but predictable and even acceptable event in a healthy society. This isn't normal.

Oakvale, many of them (not necessarily dead0) know that if we discuss these kinds of issues then we'll come to conclusions that they don't like. Their best defense is to stop the discussion from happening, period.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: FEMA Camp Administrator on July 20, 2012, 02:09:54 PM
Does anyone know what the motive was here?

Some men just want to see the world burn.

I don't want to legitimize humor in this thread, but yes, this is probably the most appropriate quote possible, especially given the context it's in.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: opebo on July 20, 2012, 02:17:30 PM
The shooter was James Eagan Holmes, 24, a graduate of UC, Riverside and a Ph D candidate at University of Colorado Medical.  Wow.

I suspect that there are few things more likely to push a man over the brink than being a PhD candidate.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 20, 2012, 02:17:38 PM
Bless those whose lives were lost today and their families.

I understand Wiz's position on this, but I don't think that bringing up politics in a thread like this (especially immediately after the incident) is exactly the classiest thing to do...

If we only talked about gun policy when there wasn't some sort of gun tragedy no one would care. That's like saying we shouldn't have talked about the levies in New Orleans after Katrina, until sufficient grieving time had passed. No, we should talk about it now.

Besides, this is a political board. Clearly I am upset about the victims' pain and suffering, hence my desire to point out that politics is a way to deal with gun violence, and a good portion of this board and the country at large refuses to talk about it, behaving as if it's a settled issue and these deaths are just part of price of "freedom". If we want to avoid these tragedies in the future, we need to address a lot of underlying issues that aren't being otherwise discussed.

I don't see how the time of when an issue is discussed means people simply aren't going to care, and I never meant to say that this incident can't be used as an anecdote for why some gun laws are necessary, but today, emphasis should be on the victims whose lives were lost.  I do not oppose talking about gun control or getting to the underlying causes of these tragedies (in fact, I believe that certain gun regulations are necessary), but let's remember what this thread is about- the massacre, itself.  And today, I think most of the anger should be directed at the fiend who's responsible for this.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on July 20, 2012, 02:18:30 PM

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof. When a maniac massacred sixteen people in Dunblane in 1996, there was a near-unanimous consensus that the UK needed to tighten its gun control - and they did, with universal public support.

Only in America is the reaction to things like this a horrified panic at the very idea that there might have to be the slightest scrap of extra regulation on guns, because, lest we forget, it's a God-given right to allow lunatics to own the kind of tools that let them murder people with wild abandon.

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse people of "politicizing" this - as if this doesn't inherently have political ramifications and, more to the point, as if your very post wasn't a sleazy and political attack on those of us who think the sheer amount of violent firearms massacres in the United States might - just might - warrant a re-examination of the law.

The same goes for Sanchez and Sanders - spare us the phony outrage. Please. The idea that this incident can be shrugged off as "huh, it was just some nut, what you gonna do?" as if it's merely a sad but predictable and even acceptable event in a healthy society. This isn't normal.

Oakvale, many of them (not necessarily dead0) know that if we discuss these kinds of issues then we'll come to conclusions that they don't like. Their best defense is to stop the discussion from happening, period.
My issue is with the immediate "ITZ THE GUNZ PPLZ FAULT" response. We can debate this issue...tomorrow, or in the coming days. I look forward to hearing your responses on the issue. I look forward to the debate.

You know, I could have made the point that if someone else in the movie theater had a gun, maybe casualties would have been lower. Or, they could have been higher...I don't know, but I look forward to hearing your opinions on it. This forum is not only a place where I go to debate, it is also a place where I learn. My views have been changed here before.

It is too early to tell the motive. It is too early for Louie Gohmert to be making idiotic statements. It is too early for Alex Wagner to be demanding the repeal of the 2nd amendment. It is too early for Alex Jones to be calling this a "inside job".

You don't immediately throw blame around during an ongoing tragedy. You do in the aftermath. Just the other day, Iran was blamed for the barbaric boming in Bulgaria. But did they do it? Do we really know? Was it really Hezbollah? Or could it be an Al Qaida attack? Immediately the issue became Iran, and a hysteria about it almost started.

I think it is simply too early to be starting a major political debate that will dominate headlines in the coming weeks. My outrage is not "feigned".


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Holmes on July 20, 2012, 02:28:35 PM
Casualties would have been higher had other attendees had guns with them. He set off a smoke bomb. Having two or more people firing guns in there would have been a lot more serious and dangerous than it already was.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Beet on July 20, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Yeah, I'm angry at the shooter, of course. But the shooter knew what he was doing, and turned himself in voluntarily. The punishment doesn't phase him. Anger at him seems- impotent. Hence the search for other things that we could have done to prevent or at least mitigate this kind of thing, hence the turn to guns.

The fact of the matter is, the assault weapon (AR-15) the guy used would have been covered under the AWB of 2004. Whether, without this weapon, casualties would have almost certainly been less than the 40. The AR-15 is a very powerful weapon, the civilian equivalent of the M-16. It was by far the most powerful thing in his arsenal.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: John Dibble on July 20, 2012, 03:23:14 PM
Yeah, I'm angry at the shooter, of course. But the shooter knew what he was doing, and turned himself in voluntarily. The punishment doesn't phase him. Anger at him seems- impotent. Hence the search for other things that we could have done to prevent or at least mitigate this kind of thing, hence the turn to guns.

The fact of the matter is, the assault weapon (AR-15) the guy used would have been covered under the AWB of 2004. Whether, without this weapon, casualties would have almost certainly been less than the 40. The AR-15 is a very powerful weapon, the civilian equivalent of the M-16. It was by far the most powerful thing in his arsenal.

Of course, if he didn't have access to that gun he may have just used his explosives as well or just found another powerful gun. It's hard to say how access to one particular weapon would affect what would occur.

This guy was 24 - I doubt whatever mental illnesses he's like to have started just this year. I think it would be better if our schools were better equipped to detect and deal with people who have mental illnesses so we can head this kind of thing off entirely.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: J. J. on July 20, 2012, 04:09:13 PM
Yeah, I'm angry at the shooter, of course. But the shooter knew what he was doing, and turned himself in voluntarily. The punishment doesn't phase him. Anger at him seems- impotent. Hence the search for other things that we could have done to prevent or at least mitigate this kind of thing, hence the turn to guns.

The fact of the matter is, the assault weapon (AR-15) the guy used would have been covered under the AWB of 2004. Whether, without this weapon, casualties would have almost certainly been less than the 40. The AR-15 is a very powerful weapon, the civilian equivalent of the M-16. It was by far the most powerful thing in his arsenal.

He had some bombs at home.

He used tear gas, not a smoke grenade.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Simfan34 on July 20, 2012, 04:13:01 PM
The shooter was James Eagan Holmes, 24, a graduate of UC, Riverside and a Ph D candidate at University of Colorado Medical.  Wow.

I suspect that there are few things more likely to push a man over the brink than being a PhD candidate.

I'm not dead.

In most other countries, an event like this would force an introspective reevaluation of gun laws. In ours that introspection is denounced as insensitivity. It is unfortunate, and wait we should, but this is inherently a political issue.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on July 20, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
I suspect that there are few things more likely to push a man over the brink than being a PhD candidate.

True enough, but generally we don't have the time (or energy left, of course) to plan this kind of thing, let alone carry it out.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: J. J. on July 20, 2012, 04:25:38 PM
The shooter was James Eagan Holmes, 24, a graduate of UC, Riverside and a Ph D candidate at University of Colorado Medical.  Wow.

I suspect that there are few things more likely to push a man over the brink than being a PhD candidate.

I never suggested it did, just that he seems to have been quite brilliant.  That would make him dangerous.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Simfan34 on July 20, 2012, 04:35:09 PM
Good God, we've managed to inject antintellectualism in this debate.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Dereich on July 20, 2012, 04:54:26 PM
Does anyone know what the motive was here?

Some men just want to see the world burn.

This seems oddly prescient, as CNN is now reporting that the guy is describing himself to the police as "the Joker".


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 20, 2012, 05:06:42 PM
Does anyone know what the motive was here?

Some men just want to see the world burn.

This seems oddly prescient, as CNN is now reporting that the guy is describing himself to the police as "the Joker".

Of course. Look at his target and how he was perfectly calm when he was arrested. I thought he was trying to be a villain once I heard about this.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: J. J. on July 20, 2012, 05:24:40 PM
Good God, we've managed to inject antintellectualism in this debate.

No, merely stating fact.  He is less likely to make mistakes, and that makes him more dangerous.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 20, 2012, 06:30:34 PM
Yeah, I'm angry at the shooter, of course. But the shooter knew what he was doing, and turned himself in voluntarily. The punishment doesn't phase him. Anger at him seems- impotent. Hence the search for other things that we could have done to prevent or at least mitigate this kind of thing, hence the turn to guns.

The fact of the matter is, the assault weapon (AR-15) the guy used would have been covered under the AWB of 2004. Whether, without this weapon, casualties would have almost certainly been less than the 40. The AR-15 is a very powerful weapon, the civilian equivalent of the M-16. It was by far the most powerful thing in his arsenal.

     On the other hand, he could have gotten an analogous weapon with equal ease if the AWB still existed, because it didn't actually do anything of nontrivial effect. The AWB is probably the best evidence that gun control advocates don't actually know what they're doing.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: memphis on July 20, 2012, 06:45:58 PM
Many people are shot in this country every day. This incident isn't even a drop in the bucket. Yes, it's very weird, random, and senseless, but people are acting like gun violence isn't an everyday fact of life in the United States. And I'm not saying that I have a solution either. Though I think we must consider what we can do as a matter of public policy to change this fact. I just don't understand why people who have no connection to the victims are so shocked. 


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: milhouse24 on July 20, 2012, 07:09:53 PM
When I first watched Heath Ledger in Dark kNight, I thought it was the most violent and psychopathic movie ever.  Nolan tried to make the movie feel real.  In doing so, he made the killing of innocent civilians of Gotham in the movie realistic and plausible by an insane mad man Joker. 

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people. 

It was just a sickening movie, and I can easily see how a mentally unstable person can watch the film repeatedly and get a feeling that humans are the worthless bodies shown in the movie.  Its just a traumatic movie.  In seeing the previews for the 3rd batman movie, the callous death of football players in the stadium is just sickening.  I just get a really violent vibe from the films, and it glorifies mass murder. 


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on July 20, 2012, 07:11:01 PM
Many people are shot in this country every day. This incident isn't even a drop in the bucket. Yes, it's very weird, random, and senseless, but people are acting like gun violence isn't an everyday fact of life in the United States. And I'm not saying that I have a solution either. Though I think we must consider what we can do as a matter of public policy to change this fact. I just don't understand why people who have no connection to the victims are so shocked. 

Because it was a mass shooting in a public place, with many victims. How often are dozens of people shot in a movie theater-especially by someone they don't know?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Holmes on July 20, 2012, 07:12:37 PM
When I first watched Heath Ledger in Dark kNight, I thought it was the most violent and psychopathic movie ever.  Nolan tried to make the movie feel real.  In doing so, he made the killing of innocent civilians of Gotham in the movie realistic and plausible by an insane mad man Joker. 

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people. 

It was just a sickening movie, and I can easily see how a mentally unstable person can watch the film repeatedly and get a feeling that humans are the worthless bodies shown in the movie.  Its just a traumatic movie.  In seeing the previews for the 3rd batman movie, the callous death of football players in the stadium is just sickening.  I just get a really violent vibe from the films, and it glorifies mass murder. 

The villain isn't the one that's glorified, the hero who stops him is. Just because something happens in a movie, a television show, a book, or any other form of media, doesn't mean it's being glorified. Oy.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: milhouse24 on July 20, 2012, 07:13:00 PM
Not exactly the kind of news I want to hear about as someone who works at a theater.

Isn't it funny comparing Romney to a Murderer in your photo?  

Not.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: patrick1 on July 20, 2012, 07:17:55 PM
True.  Mass shootings are so commonplace now that they are to be expected rather than a cause of surprise. As Memphis stated and Obama alluded to, many more are killed in smaller scale gun violence daily.

I'm a bit bemused by those who are horrified that you should even bring up the gun control topic.  Things like this now happen on a quarterly basis. Adults should be allowed to have adult conversations while still be respectful of the dead.  The fact that most Americans on both sides of the issue seem to be incapable of having a level headed discussion is further evidence that we live in a rather immature country that can't walk and chew gum at the same time. It is true that a determined person can find dozens and hundreds of ways to kill many people. However, readily available firearms just makes it easy for them. Rather than focus on what type of weapon used- can't we ask why any nutjob with a pulse can seemingly get an AR15. There has to be additional standards and screening put in place that assures that someone is trained in safety, competent and not a danger to themselves or the community.  Yet, I fear that were this even whispered many paranoids (you know the ones who shouldn't really have guns) would be up in arms, so to speak, that fedgov is ready to put them in camps....


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: milhouse24 on July 20, 2012, 07:18:11 PM
When I first watched Heath Ledger in Dark kNight, I thought it was the most violent and psychopathic movie ever.  Nolan tried to make the movie feel real.  In doing so, he made the killing of innocent civilians of Gotham in the movie realistic and plausible by an insane mad man Joker. 

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people. 

It was just a sickening movie, and I can easily see how a mentally unstable person can watch the film repeatedly and get a feeling that humans are the worthless bodies shown in the movie.  Its just a traumatic movie.  In seeing the previews for the 3rd batman movie, the callous death of football players in the stadium is just sickening.  I just get a really violent vibe from the films, and it glorifies mass murder. 

The villain isn't the one that's glorified, the hero who stops him is. Just because something happens in a movie, a television show, a book, or any other form of media, doesn't mean it's being glorified. Oy.

Well, Heath Ledger got a lot of screen time for setting up elaborate mass murder scenes in such a sadistic and dehumanizing way for no particular reason other than to illustrate was a detached non-human with no care about innocent life.  

In most films, villains commit murder or other violent acts to get money or power, etc.  But in Dark Knight, the Joker enjoyed committing murder for the sake of committing murder and spreading mayhem and death, for no reason other than to create mayhem.  

It was really only at the end that Batman figures a way to stop him.  At least the first movie was about Bruce Wayne's development.  The second movie was about how insane and dark could they make the Joker character.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 20, 2012, 07:26:20 PM
When I first watched Heath Ledger in Dark kNight, I thought it was the most violent and psychopathic movie ever.  Nolan tried to make the movie feel real.  In doing so, he made the killing of innocent civilians of Gotham in the movie realistic and plausible by an insane mad man Joker. 

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people. 

It was just a sickening movie, and I can easily see how a mentally unstable person can watch the film repeatedly and get a feeling that humans are the worthless bodies shown in the movie.  Its just a traumatic movie.  In seeing the previews for the 3rd batman movie, the callous death of football players in the stadium is just sickening.  I just get a really violent vibe from the films, and it glorifies mass murder. 

The villain isn't the one that's glorified, the hero who stops him is. Just because something happens in a movie, a television show, a book, or any other form of media, doesn't mean it's being glorified. Oy.

One meme that has gotten explored quite often in the Batman mythos is whether those supervillains would do the things they do if there was no Batman.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: WhyteRain on July 20, 2012, 07:28:43 PM
I've been thinking about this and I think this is the 9/11 of terrorism at movie theaters.

Our response should be the same:  Have the government take over theater security.

TSA -- even the initials fit.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: patrick1 on July 20, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Many people are shot in this country every day. This incident isn't even a drop in the bucket. Yes, it's very weird, random, and senseless, but people are acting like gun violence isn't an everyday fact of life in the United States. And I'm not saying that I have a solution either. Though I think we must consider what we can do as a matter of public policy to change this fact. I just don't understand why people who have no connection to the victims are so shocked. 

Because it was a mass shooting in a public place, with many victims. How often are dozens of people shot in a movie theater-especially by someone they don't know?

There have been dozens of shootings at movie theaters so much that there have been metal detectors and the like at "urban" venues. This just has a higher body account, was in the suburbs and a white perp. Even discounting that, a venue should not be surprising because there have been mass shootings in church, malls, schools, the workplace, courts etc etc etc.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on July 20, 2012, 07:36:54 PM
Many people are shot in this country every day. This incident isn't even a drop in the bucket. Yes, it's very weird, random, and senseless, but people are acting like gun violence isn't an everyday fact of life in the United States. And I'm not saying that I have a solution either. Though I think we must consider what we can do as a matter of public policy to change this fact. I just don't understand why people who have no connection to the victims are so shocked. 

Because it was a mass shooting in a public place, with many victims. How often are dozens of people shot in a movie theater-especially by someone they don't know?

There have been dozens of shootings at movie theaters so much that there have been metal detectors and the like at "urban" venues. This just has a higher body account, was in the suburbs and a white perp. Even discounting that, a venue should not be surprising because there have been mass shootings in church, malls, schools, the workplace, courts etc etc etc.

Ok, so let's look at the reaction again. First, the media always overreacts to these type of events. Second, I haven't observed people being really "shocked" at this. I'm not. Sad, yes, and angry because it's yet another example of the result of America's shameful laws regarding guns. But whatever.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Foucaulf on July 20, 2012, 07:51:50 PM
Been paying attention to this all day. Was shocked for a few minutes, and then spent the rest of the time trying to say something meaningful.

There's a pattern with these shootings, where once the suspect's caught every news network has to act the armchair shrink. This time he's supposed to be the Joker or whatever. From there everyone with a bone to pick about modernity gets another piece of evidence in his arsenal.

This is understandable; there needs to be a focus on justice after the fact. But within all the debate over culpability and morality not a single position can be adopted - and we're back to what to do about the weapons in question, which in turn goes back to Oakvale's incredible post.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: RI on July 20, 2012, 08:00:26 PM
In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people.  

Did you watch The Dark Knight? Nobody died on the boats or in the hospital. I can think of only a handful of 'innocent' people (non-mob people) who were killed by the Joker: Rachael Dawes, that one guy who dressed as Batman, possibly someone at the bank (though mostly just fellow criminals, and it was a mob bank), the insane guy with the cell phone in his stomach, and a handful of public officials. The Joker was much more about getting other people to kill each other for his amusement and creating general chaos than simply racking up a murder total. By movie standards, he hardly killed anyone.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: retromike22 on July 20, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
Roger Ebert on the shootings:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/07/the_body_count.html (http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/07/the_body_count.html)


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: memphis on July 20, 2012, 09:10:26 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: WhyteRain on July 20, 2012, 09:21:40 PM
Why are people talking about "gun laws" when that obviously won't do any good?

What are you going to do -- pass a law against carrying guns in theaters?  Against medical students owning them?

I say let's do it like the airports -- frisk all the moviegoers before they go in.   Hey, seeing a movie is a privilege, not a right!


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: exopolitician on July 20, 2012, 09:26:18 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: greenforest32 on July 20, 2012, 09:43:09 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: WhyteRain on July 20, 2012, 10:10:16 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

You don't notice any problem with Dionne's argument?  Let's look at it as reasonable people:

 
Quote
Anyone who dares to say that an event such as the massacre at a Colorado movie theater early Friday demands that we rethink our approach to the regulation of firearms is accused of “exploiting” the deaths of innocent people.

This is part of the gun lobby’s rote response, and the rest of us allow it to work every time. Its goal is to block any conversation about how our nation’s gun laws, the most permissive in the industrialized world, increase the likelihood of mass killings of this sort.

First, the gun lobby goes straight to the exploitation argument — which is, of course, a big lie. You can see this because we never allow an assertion of this kind to stop conversation on other issues.

(Emphasis added)

I think those three paragraphs are the essence of Dionne's claim, right?  What's missing?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: milhouse24 on July 20, 2012, 10:58:07 PM
In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people.  

Did you watch The Dark Knight? Nobody died on the boats or in the hospital. I can think of only a handful of 'innocent' people (non-mob people) who were killed by the Joker: Rachael Dawes, that one guy who dressed as Batman, possibly someone at the bank (though mostly just fellow criminals, and it was a mob bank), the insane guy with the cell phone in his stomach, and a handful of public officials. The Joker was much more about getting other people to kill each other for his amusement and creating general chaos than simply racking up a murder total. By movie standards, he hardly killed anyone.

Okay, just rewatched Dark Knight and Ledger's Joker just struck me as the most depraved mass anarchist on film.  His only goal was not money or power, but mass mayhem and chaos.  His goal was to prove that humans do not care about other human life.  He was just a demented character who wanted as much death as possible.  It just felt like Chris Nolan kept ratching up the insanity level of the criminal acts that the Joker would commit.  Blowing up a hospital and endagering sick people, manipulating everyone to commit murder, forcing the ship passengers to choose between their life or killing others. 

The movie just felt soulless, like the opposite of heartwarming.  Sure it was well made and well produced, but the theme that "anyone can be corrupted to commit murder" just like Two Face/Harvey Dent, just makes audiences lose faith in humanity.  With Ledger getting so much screen time, it showed a powerful charismatic sociopath capable of inducing mass mayhem and hysteria with just a few threats.  Its disturbing.  On some level, Chris Nolan is trying to make a psychological film about evil and the line that Batman crosses between doing good and killing bad guys. 

Ledger deserved to win the Oscar, but his portrayal will live for eternity as steadily chilling.  At least Jack Nicholson's joker was fun and cartoonish.  There's nothing redeeming about Ledger's Joker, he's not human at all, just pure 100% insanity. 


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Vote UKIP! on July 20, 2012, 11:15:56 PM
I think those three paragraphs are the essence of Dionne's claim, right?  What's missing?

That the author is also exploiting the situation for his political agenda?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on July 20, 2012, 11:30:01 PM

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof. When a maniac massacred sixteen people in Dunblane in 1996, there was a near-unanimous consensus that the UK needed to tighten its gun control - and they did, with universal public support.

Only in America is the reaction to things like this a horrified panic at the very idea that there might have to be the slightest scrap of extra regulation on guns, because, lest we forget, it's a God-given right to allow lunatics to own the kind of tools that let them murder people with wild abandon.

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse people of "politicizing" this - as if this doesn't inherently have political ramifications and, more to the point, as if your very post wasn't a sleazy and political attack on those of us who think the sheer amount of violent firearms massacres in the United States might - just might - warrant a re-examination of the law.

The same goes for Sanchez and Sanders - spare us the phony outrage. Please. The idea that this incident can be shrugged off as "huh, it was just some nut, what you gonna do?" as if it's merely a sad but predictable and even acceptable event in a healthy society. This isn't normal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

The only worthwhile things in this entire thread. Just another issue that this country is hopelessly f**ked on and can never make any progress with. Just another issue caused by the over-representation of rural areas and our timid two party system.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: dead0man on July 20, 2012, 11:56:02 PM

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof.
My issue wasn't with the debate, it was the location of the debate.  Start a new freaking thread to debate the gun laws if you must, I just think this is the wrong forum (in the traditional sense) for it.  I took sh**t for challenging the claim that Rodney King was a "hero" in his "RIP" thread.  I consider what y'all are doing to be substantially worse.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Comrade Funk on July 21, 2012, 12:07:34 AM
I get so sick of this world sometimes. Unfortunately, there are just evil people out there. RIP.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Sbane on July 21, 2012, 01:09:24 AM
First of all I would like to say RIP to all the victims and extend my condolences to the families of the victims.

That being said this thread is fair game for a gun control discussion. We should make these sorts of guns very hard to get and put people through multiple screenings, background checks etc etc. I don't care how inconvenient it is, it's less inconvenient than having your loved one taken away from you by a crazy person. Yes, people kill people not guns, but we can institute more checks to make sure these crazy people don't get their hands on guns. And even if they do, better it be a rifle or a handgun than an AR-15. Those sorts of guns should be taken off the market. Not because we are denying access to criminals (real criminals will find a way) but to deny easy access to these crazy people. It's much more likely he would have carried this out with a less destructive gun rather than trying to scour out an AR-15 or equivalent gun on the black market. So why not ban these guns and make it that much harder to get?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: © tweed on July 21, 2012, 01:17:47 AM
First of all I would like to say RIP to all the victims and extend my condolences to the families of the victims.

they won't see this


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Sbane on July 21, 2012, 01:29:04 AM

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof.
My issue wasn't with the debate, it was the location of the debate.  Start a new freaking thread to debate the gun laws if you must, I just think this is the wrong forum (in the traditional sense) for it.  I took sh**t for challenging the claim that Rodney King was a "hero" in his "RIP" thread.  I consider what y'all are doing to be substantially worse.

So what should we discuss in this thread? Just say RIP and leave? This is not like a thread on Rodney King or a politician. Nobody here is sh**tting on the victims or the dead like it would be case with you trashing Rodney King in his death thread or others talking trashing Jesse Helms in his death thread.

I know you guys don't like to hear it but the reason why a guy is able to get an AR-15 and go on a shootout is because of lax gun laws. It's possible someone would be able to get an AR-15 from the black market and do this but it's about a 100 times harder, especially for someone like him who would not be in contact with the black market. If he was doing this with a less powerful gun, it's possible that less people would be grieving for their loved ones tonight.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: dead0man on July 21, 2012, 01:44:31 AM
First of all I would like to say RIP to all the victims and extend my condolences to the families of the victims.

That being said this thread is fair game for a gun control discussion. We should make these sorts of guns very hard to get and put people through multiple screenings, background checks etc etc. I don't care how inconvenient it is, it's less inconvenient than having your loved one taken away from you by a crazy person. Yes, people kill people not guns, but we can institute more checks to make sure these crazy people don't get their hands on guns. And even if they do, better it be a rifle or a handgun than an AR-15. Those sorts of guns should be taken off the market. Not because we are denying access to criminals (real criminals will find a way) but to deny easy access to these crazy people. It's much more likely he would have carried this out with a less destructive gun rather than trying to scour out an AR-15 or equivalent gun on the black market. So why not ban these guns and make it that much harder to get?
But there is little difference between an AR-15 and any other .22 caliber, semi-auto rifle other than <spooky voice> the scary look </voice>.  Are we taking them ALL off the market?
So what should we discuss in this thread? Just say RIP and leave? This is not like a thread on Rodney King or a politician. Nobody here is sh**tting on the victims or the dead like it would be case with you trashing Rodney King in his death thread or others talking trashing Jesse Helms in his death thread.

I know you guys don't like to hear it but the reason why a guy is able to get an AR-15 and go on a shootout is because of lax gun laws. It's possible someone would be able to get an AR-15 from the black market and do this but it's about a 100 times harder, especially for someone like him who would not be in contact with the black market. If he was doing this with a less powerful gun, it's possible that less people would be grieving for their loved ones tonight.
Again, what would be wrong with starting a second thread about gun control?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Sbane on July 21, 2012, 02:05:17 AM
Not an expert on guns obviously....but any gun where you are able to shoot off so many rounds in such a short amount of time should not be allowed, yes. So all semi autos I guess. Did the AWB not ban all of them? Also what exactly is the use for the semi automatics which could not be accomplished with other rifles or a handgun?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: dead0man on July 21, 2012, 02:29:41 AM
Not an expert on guns obviously....but any gun where you are able to shoot off so many rounds in such a short amount of time should not be allowed, yes. So all semi autos I guess. Did the AWB not ban all of them?
The AWB only banned cosmetic things and large (more than 10 rounds) magazines.  While I wouldn't like re-limiting them, I'd be willing to concede it as part of a compromise.
Quote
Also what exactly is the use for the semi automatics which could not be accomplished with other rifles or a handgun?
Hunting is easier as you can fire a second shot right away without having to re-aim as much, though bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate.  It doesn't matter, there is no way you are going to ban ALL semiautomatic rifles.  Magazine capacity, sure.  More pointless cosmetic bans/bans on specific weapons, sure.  A general ban on all semi-autos, no chance.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Sbane on July 21, 2012, 02:31:37 AM
Reducing magazine capacity seems to be the way to go.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: dead0man on July 21, 2012, 02:33:55 AM
Aye, and I can see that happening again.  Like I said, I would be against it, but can understand and accept it.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: opebo on July 21, 2012, 06:53:03 AM
I suspect that there are few things more likely to push a man over the brink than being a PhD candidate.

True enough, but generally we don't have the time (or energy left, of course) to plan this kind of thing, let alone carry it out.

One suspects that he simply neglected his 'research' for a while, knowing that he wouldn't face evaluation, but rather prison (a lesser torture, no doubt).


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: WhyteRain on July 21, 2012, 07:59:41 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

You don't notice any problem with Dionne's argument?  Let's look at it as reasonable people:

 
Quote
Anyone who dares to say that an event such as the massacre at a Colorado movie theater early Friday demands that we rethink our approach to the regulation of firearms is accused of “exploiting” the deaths of innocent people.

This is part of the gun lobby’s rote response, and the rest of us allow it to work every time. Its goal is to block any conversation about how our nation’s gun laws, the most permissive in the industrialized world, increase the likelihood of mass killings of this sort.

First, the gun lobby goes straight to the exploitation argument — which is, of course, a big lie. You can see this because we never allow an assertion of this kind to stop conversation on other issues.

(Emphasis added)

I think those three paragraphs are the essence of Dionne's claim, right?  What's missing?

For Master Sanders, IDS Legislator:

A longer response was eaten by this lemon of a laptop I recently bought.

The short answer is that

(1)  Dionne makes claims about "the gun lobby's argument", but
(2)  He never quotes it.

Without the readers being able to see exactly what he's talking about -- the "gun lobby's response" -- then his characterizations of it, as "a rote response" or an "(anti)-exploitation argument", are meaningless.

As it is now, the article is worthless for understanding the post-massacre debate.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: bore on July 21, 2012, 08:54:25 AM
An interesting link from a few years ago about the media aftermath of another mass shooting, we can hope, for all our sakes, that someone pays attention, but I won't count on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8rMYyegT5Y



Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: milhouse24 on July 21, 2012, 01:46:53 PM
Its odd that the alleged killer has the last name Holmes, which is similar to Katie Holmes who was in the first Batman movie.  I wonder if they are distant relatives.  It probably has nothing to do with his motives, but it is an odd coincidence.  And Katie Holmes was removed from the 2nd Batman movie which upset many fans.  She also recently divorced Tom Cruise and left Scientology so I'm sure some conspiracy theorists will find a way to blame the mass murders on Scientology. 


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Frodo on July 21, 2012, 02:01:02 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Joe Republic on July 21, 2012, 02:03:00 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).

Another entry for the 'Things that are f[inks]ed up about the US' thread, it seems.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Lief 🗽 on July 21, 2012, 02:07:15 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).

Unfortunately for people who don't like being shot, too.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on July 21, 2012, 02:33:53 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).

The post-mortem reports of the gun control "movement" were written long ago.

Even if there is a major spike of crime, I don't see this being an issue again.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: opebo on July 21, 2012, 04:04:29 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).

No one seriously believes there will ever be gun control, Frodo, we're just pointing out that these slaughters are, given that fact, inevitable and unsurprising.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: © tweed on July 21, 2012, 04:07:26 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).

No one seriously believes there will ever be gun control, Frodo, we're just pointing out that these slaughters are, given that fact, inevitable and unsurprising.


I think dead0 predicted a 1 in 4 chance the (D)s would enact a comprehensive assault weapons ban in 2009.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on July 21, 2012, 06:05:12 PM
Why do these things happen in the United States more frequently than in other countries?

Pace the advocates of gun control here, I actually do think that anyone in Europe sufficiently determined to commit an act like this can access the sufficient levels of explosives and firearms. Andres Brevik being a particularly prominent example. So I think the law and access to fire arms is a red herring here (though neither do I believe that greater access to firearms decreases crime like the gun advocates seem to claim, it is idea too silly to take seriously). More important to ask is why so many people in the United States seem to tie up the notion of gun ownership with that of individualism, an idea which is very alien to this European (living in a country where the police are not armed - this though is more common on the continental mainland - I could probably count using my fingers the amount of times I've actually seen in the flesh a firearm here). Answer that question and perhaps then we can move on beyond the tiredness of this debate. Not that I imagine that the conservatives are rather interested in answering this (why wonder about truths you hold to be self-evident even if others don't?)

Actually if you wanted me to sum up a personal 'position' (as if such a thing is necessarily desirable) on this situation is that owning a gun is like wanting to be president of the United States or a Millionaire property investor. Anyone should be allowed to own one, except for those that actually want to have one who should of course be banned by law from ever doing so.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: J. J. on July 21, 2012, 09:07:26 PM
Holmes is no dummy.  Graduated college, a reasonably hard one, with a hard degree and with high honors.  Phi Beta Kappa.  In a hard doctoral program.  I don't understand what made him do it.

I also have no doubt that, with his apartment rigged, he probably could have devised another weapon, or weapons.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on July 21, 2012, 09:22:37 PM
Guys, all of our problems would be solved if there were more guns. Clearly that would stop shooters like Lovelle Mixon.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on July 21, 2012, 09:53:13 PM
Unfortunately for our gun control advocates on this thread, what support they do have in Congress is actually shrinking -not growing (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78803.html#ixzz21HiVVq8A).

:D


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: gunnut on July 22, 2012, 03:03:33 PM
Guys, all of our problems would be solved if there were more guns. Clearly that would stop shooters like Lovelle Mixon.

Ah so you've changed your policy from decreasing the mag size to not having SALWs whatsoever. Very interesting. Seems we have ourselves a true Commyfornia politician. Might I remind you all of an incident in a Colorado church 5 years ago consisting of an armed man who was confronted and halted by an armed female security officer, saving many lives. I do mourn for the families and wish such an incident at the movie theater never happened as do all of you, but how many liscenced gun owners didn't kill anyone that day?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on July 23, 2012, 01:15:39 AM
Guys, all of our problems would be solved if there were more guns. Clearly that would stop shooters like Lovelle Mixon.

Ah so you've changed your policy from decreasing the mag size to not having SALWs whatsoever. Very interesting. Seems we have ourselves a true Commyfornia politician. Might I remind you all of an incident in a Colorado church 5 years ago consisting of an armed man who was confronted and halted by an armed female security officer, saving many lives. I do mourn for the families and wish such an incident at the movie theater never happened as do all of you, but how many liscenced gun owners didn't kill anyone that day?

Yeah, well the Lovelle Mixon incident destroys the argument "if only more bystanders had guns". All of the 4 cops he killed were armed, and two of them were members of the SWAT team who knew that they were going into a dangerous situation with a cop-killer.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: gunnut on July 23, 2012, 12:17:40 PM
Guys, all of our problems would be solved if there were more guns. Clearly that would stop shooters like Lovelle Mixon.

Ah so you've changed your policy from decreasing the mag size to not having SALWs whatsoever. Very interesting. Seems we have ourselves a true Commyfornia politician. Might I remind you all of an incident in a Colorado church 5 years ago consisting of an armed man who was confronted and halted by an armed female security officer, saving many lives. I do mourn for the families and wish such an incident at the movie theater never happened as do all of you, but how many liscenced gun owners didn't kill anyone that day?

Yeah, well the Lovelle Mixon incident destroys the argument "if only more bystanders had guns". All of the 4 cops he killed were armed, and two of them were members of the SWAT team who knew that they were going into a dangerous situation with a cop-killer.

Ah but look deeper into the facts. Lovell's Mixon was a convicted felon, and purchased his firearm illegally. No registered legal firearm owner has ever fired at a police officer. Taking firearms away would be absurd. I remember reading in More Guns Less Crime by John R. Lott Jr. that an elderly man fired at a man trying to rob his house and actually got him in the leg while he was coining over the fence. This elderly man was a liscenced firearm owner but there was not enough evidence to prove the man he fired at guilty (aka this wasn't in Florida with the Stand Your Ground law). The elderly man's firearm was taken from him. About a month later, the elderly man's house was being robbed again, and this time, police found the homeowner was no longer with us.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: gunnut on July 23, 2012, 12:21:20 PM
*going not coining. Lovell not Lovell's. Stupid kindle spell-check


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: The Mikado on July 23, 2012, 07:12:23 PM

Actually if you wanted me to sum up a personal 'position' (as if such a thing is necessarily desirable) on this situation is that owning a gun is like wanting to be president of the United States or a Millionaire property investor. Anyone should be allowed to own one, except for those that actually want to have one who should of course be banned by law from ever doing so.

I'm imagining a draft for venture capitalist positions that drag out Franciscan monks and Buddhist monks and others who have taken a vow of poverty and drag them, kicking and screaming, to Wall Street.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on July 23, 2012, 07:35:51 PM

Actually if you wanted me to sum up a personal 'position' (as if such a thing is necessarily desirable) on this situation is that owning a gun is like wanting to be president of the United States or a Millionaire property investor. Anyone should be allowed to own one, except for those that actually want to have one who should of course be banned by law from ever doing so.

I'm imagining a draft for venture capitalist positions that drag out Franciscan monks and Buddhist monks and others who have taken a vow of poverty and drag them, kicking and screaming, to Wall Street.

With the exception of the monks, I do tend to think that sort of thing would be better for most people. A bit like a Celestine V story.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Phony Moderate on July 23, 2012, 08:23:57 PM
I've read quite a few comments on the internet claiming that politicians will use this as an excuse to enact more gun control. Yet AFAIA neither Obama nor Romney have uttered the term "gun control" since the tragedy, and, as was previously noted, the support for gun control in Congress is shrinking.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Vosem on July 23, 2012, 08:35:40 PM
I've read quite a few comments on the internet claiming that politicians will use this as an excuse to enact more gun control. Yet AFAIA neither Obama nor Romney have uttered the term "gun control" since the tragedy, and, as was previously noted, the support for gun control in Congress is shrinking.

Well, people get worried because whenever this sort of thing happens leftists in journalism write op-eds praising gun control. Ultimately, politicians are smarter than that; polling right after the tragedy showed 72% of the country against gun control and 68% with a positive opinion of the NRA. You don't get on the wrong side of that.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Likely Voter on July 24, 2012, 12:36:03 AM
Gun Control doesn't have to be all or nothing. Bottom line is that we already have gun control, the question is: is it enough, or too much?

While "gun control" may not be popular, I also dont hear people asking for the repeal of the ban on automatic weapons.  On the other hand there isn't much call for banning all guns, so the question is, where to draw the line. I think with this latest tragedy and with Tuscon it is not unreasonable to start talking about banning extended magazines, which were banned for a decade untile the assault weapons ban lapsed in 2004.

THis is what the CO killer used...
()
Here it is on video: http://youtu.be/e3KOKS_HwQU

I'm pretty sure most Americans would agree that these kinds of military weapons shouldn't be available to civilians, certainly not so easily available as they were in this case.

Will banning these kinds of weapons or extended clips stop mass shootings? No. But it will give future victims more time to run or get to cover or fight back while the next a##hole who goes on a shooting spree has to stop to to reload


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Јas on July 24, 2012, 06:53:57 AM
()


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: CARLHAYDEN on July 24, 2012, 04:11:39 PM
Not an expert on guns obviously....but any gun where you are able to shoot off so many rounds in such a short amount of time should not be allowed, yes. So all semi autos I guess. Did the AWB not ban all of them?
The AWB only banned cosmetic things and large (more than 10 rounds) magazines.  While I wouldn't like re-limiting them, I'd be willing to concede it as part of a compromise.
Quote
Also what exactly is the use for the semi automatics which could not be accomplished with other rifles or a handgun?
Hunting is easier as you can fire a second shot right away without having to re-aim as much, though bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate.  It doesn't matter, there is no way you are going to ban ALL semiautomatic rifles.  Magazine capacity, sure.  More pointless cosmetic bans/bans on specific weapons, sure.  A general ban on all semi-autos, no chance.

Sorry, but the simple truth of the matter is that detachable magazines are pretty easy to manufacture.  Basically, there just sheet metal and a spring, with the metal bent into correct shapes.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Paul Kemp on July 24, 2012, 04:29:11 PM
Under the radar, Bale visits the victims on his own:

http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/24/christian-bale-visiting-shooting-victims-in-colorado/


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: dead0man on July 24, 2012, 11:57:49 PM
Not an expert on guns obviously....but any gun where you are able to shoot off so many rounds in such a short amount of time should not be allowed, yes. So all semi autos I guess. Did the AWB not ban all of them?
The AWB only banned cosmetic things and large (more than 10 rounds) magazines.  While I wouldn't like re-limiting them, I'd be willing to concede it as part of a compromise.
Quote
Also what exactly is the use for the semi automatics which could not be accomplished with other rifles or a handgun?
Hunting is easier as you can fire a second shot right away without having to re-aim as much, though bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate.  It doesn't matter, there is no way you are going to ban ALL semiautomatic rifles.  Magazine capacity, sure.  More pointless cosmetic bans/bans on specific weapons, sure.  A general ban on all semi-autos, no chance.

Sorry, but the simple truth of the matter is that detachable magazines are pretty easy to manufacture.  Basically, there just sheet metal and a spring, with the metal bent into correct shapes.
Of course, but that doesn't mean there won't be a successful push to ban/restrict them again.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Eraserhead on July 25, 2012, 03:20:13 PM
Not exactly the kind of news I want to hear about as someone who works at a theater.

Isn't it funny comparing Romney to a Murderer in your photo?  

Not.

You're not the best when it comes to separating reality from fiction, are you?


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: WhyteRain on July 28, 2012, 10:48:30 AM
Where's the guy with this dumb cartoon on his signature?
()

He probably doesn't want to read this:

Quote
http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Link on July 28, 2012, 12:59:44 PM
Where's the guy with this dumb cartoon on his signature?
()

He probably doesn't want to read this:

Quote
http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria.


Actually I heard he was reading this...

Quote
MONROE COUNTY, Ga. -

A 6-year-old girl died after accidentally being shot by her 13-year-old brother (http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/19102154/teen-accidentally-shoots-kills-6-year-old-sister-in-monroe-co) in Monroe County early Tuesday.


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Tender Branson on July 29, 2012, 01:03:25 PM
Colorado Batman shooting claims its 13th victim

Ashley Moser, 25, was eight weeks pregnant when she was hit once in the stomach and twice in the neck during the mass shooting.

Her six-year-old daughter Veronica Moser was among the 12 people killed and 58 injured when gunman James Holmes opened fire during a screening of Batman film "The Dark Knight Rises" in Aurora, Colorado on July 20.

Miss Moser, who is expected to be paralysed, lost her baby after undergoing surgery related to her injuries.

In a statement her family said: "Ashley is recovering from an additional surgery she had this morning. Tragically, the extreme trauma she sustained also caused a miscarriage.

"We want to send a special thank you to the courageous heroes of law enforcement, other first responders, paramedics, and doctors and nurses who have all gone beyond the call-of-duty in caring for our daughter, granddaughter and all of the other victims of this tragic event.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9436621/Colorado-Batman-shooting-claims-its-13th-victim.html


Title: Re: 14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening
Post by: Frodo on August 08, 2012, 06:49:42 PM
And yet, despite the massacre, most Colorado voters don't favor stricter gun laws on the basis that they would not prevent more gun violence (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79475.html?hp=l19).