Talk Elections

Atlas Fantasy Elections => Atlas Fantasy Government => Topic started by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 21, 2012, 09:07:08 AM



Title: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Failed)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 21, 2012, 09:07:08 AM
Quote
Power to Parents Act

1- Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

2- Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

3- To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

4- The funding for this line item will be come from the Go Green Fund line item in the White House budget

Sponsor: Clarence


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 21, 2012, 11:27:21 AM
I can't even think of how this bill could be amended to get my signature.

Eliminating the Go Green Fund is out of the question.

Mandating local school districts to take on this policy is also inappropriate.

I can't stand by the removal of the community as a partner in education that this bill would bring about.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 21, 2012, 11:45:44 AM
Shouldn't this be mandated at the regional or even local level?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 21, 2012, 11:48:52 AM
Shouldn't this be mandated at the regional or even local level?

Yes and the Northeast already allows this.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 01:21:31 PM
Perhaps we could come up with a compromise, and give local communities the incentive to adopt this policy, rather than a mandate?

Though I must say, I am also uncomfortable with gutting the Go Green Fund.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 21, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
Perhaps we could come up with a compromise, and give local communities the incentive to adopt this policy, rather than a mandate?

Though I must say, I am also uncomfortable with gutting the Go Green Fund.

I don't see any reason why we should offer incentives.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 21, 2012, 01:40:08 PM
I can't even think of how this bill could be amended to get my signature.

Eliminating the Go Green Fund is out of the question.

Mandating local school districts to take on this policy is also inappropriate.

I can't stand by the removal of the community as a partner in education that this bill would bring about.
1- this does not eliminate the Go Green Fund, but takes some away. Every part of the budget should be open to cuts

2- I appreciate that you did this in the Northeast...I commend you for it. However, the ultimate goal of legislation should be to give power to the people...the regions are sometimes a more favorable arena for that, sometimes not. I am not in the IDS legislature so I proposed it here and believe we have an obligation in this body to give as many rights as possible directly to the people


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 01:41:22 PM
Perhaps we could come up with a compromise, and give local communities the incentive to adopt this policy, rather than a mandate?

Though I must say, I am also uncomfortable with gutting the Go Green Fund.

I don't see any reason why we should offer incentives.

Because if we do, we can give a strong reason for why the policy should be adopted by the individual communities without taking their role out of the equation.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 21, 2012, 01:41:55 PM
Perhaps we could come up with a compromise, and give local communities the incentive to adopt this policy, rather than a mandate?

Though I must say, I am also uncomfortable with gutting the Go Green Fund.

I don't see any reason why we should offer incentives.

Because if we do, we can give a strong reason for why the policy should be adopted by the individual communities without taking their role out of the equation.
I would support this idea, Scott-


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 21, 2012, 01:53:05 PM
Would this bill not severely undermine efforts to racially diversify educational environs in a sizable number of districts, result in overcrowding the best schools, and eventually siphon funding away from the schools struggling the most (thus being least attractive to parents) to improve their levels of performance? I am a bit concerned about these things. What are your thoughts, Clarence? Is there a way to circumvent these issues? Or might they not be a priority?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 21, 2012, 01:58:20 PM
Would this bill not severely undermine efforts to racially diversify educational environs in a sizable number of districts, result in overcrowding the best schools, and eventually siphon funding away from the schools struggling the most (thus being least attractive to parents) to improve their levels of performance? I am a bit concerned about these things. What are your thoughts, Clarence? Is there a way to circumvent these issues or might they not be a priority?

Redalgo- I want to say first that I appreciate your respectful and genuine feedback event hough we do not often agree...

As for racial diversity- in Florida communities are often divided by race... there are parts of my county which have many blacks while others have many fewer. As is- with school boundaries divided geographically this results in some schools having a higher percentage of blacks then others. Giving blacks (particularly poorer blacks) the opportunity to attend schools in another area which are often higher performing would likely help diversify schools

Overcrowding- one of the problems with low performing schools is overcrowding as they don't have the resources for every child... they lack computers and sometimes even desks. Higher performing schools likely have the capacity to take in more students while lower perofrming schools would be able to concentrate their resources on the students who remain, therefore improving those student's learning experiences

Siphoning funds- I believe the above answer shows my theory- which is that the schools will eventually even out. The disparity now between high performing and low performing schools is a shame on our nation's educational system...I believe this will give equal opportunity to every student to have the best possible education


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 01:58:51 PM
Amendment:
Quote
Power to Parents Act

1. Each municipality in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be come from the Go Green Fund line item in the White House budget

I'm still not completely sold on this bill, and I think there needs to be more discussion about the Go Green Fund line item (which is why this amendment doesn't affect it), but I think we ought to start from somewhere.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 21, 2012, 02:04:22 PM
Scott- your amendment is FRIENDLY but I'd like to make one change... instead of "municipality" I believe it should be "school governing authority" as in many parts of the nation this is done by county


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 21, 2012, 02:10:52 PM
Just to be clear I would veto this bill with or without Senator Scott's amendment. I am not very enthusiastic about making this an even more expensive proposal.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 21, 2012, 02:14:10 PM
Just to be clear I would veto this bill with or without Senator Scott's amendment. I am not very enthusiastic about making this an even more expensive proposal.
I urge Senators to continue these discussions- if we can come to a consensus we will have numbers to overturn a veto

I also ask Mr. President- you proposed a redrafted bill in my discharge benefits bill... are there changes in this bill you could see that would make you likely to sign it? Unlike the Tea Party- I recognize compromise can achieve great things and can come to the table to discuss it


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 02:16:58 PM
Very well.  I will change this-

Amendment:
Quote
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be come from the Go Green Fund line item in the White House budget


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 21, 2012, 02:19:34 PM
The amendment is friendly


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 21, 2012, 02:32:11 PM
I find Clarence's response to be persuasive, and am willing to go along with his plan and see what happens provided the incentive is dropped, the mandate reinstated, and the billion dollars we are going to spend on School Choice Transportation Assistance doesn't come from the Go Green Fund.

Benefits for the regions with strings attached is a serious pet peeve of mine. I consider it corrupt. Either tell the regions they need to do it or recommend it to them without cash to sweeten the deal and pervert their motivations for participation. That being said, if the President vetoes on the grounds of federalist concerns I will not vote to overrule - as his is a stance I sympathize with to some extent.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 02:37:28 PM
I find Clarence's response to be persuasive, and am willing to go along with his plan and see what happens provided the incentive is dropped, the mandate reinstated, and the billion dollars we are going to spend on School Choice Transportation Assistance doesn't come from the Go Green Fund.

Benefits for the regions with strings attached is a serious pet peeve of mine. I consider it corrupt.

I don't see what corruption could come from this.  It merely encourages school districts to adopt the plan so we can experiment and compare the performance of the ones that are under the policy to the ones that are not.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 21, 2012, 02:48:00 PM
It could promote a political culture in which local bureaucrats are tempted to do whatever will promise them more federal funding, perhaps to the detriment of staying true to their core responsibility in office of serving local communities as best they know how. If the desire here is to experiment and compare, why not begin with some sort of pilot program and then decide whether to proceed on a large scale based on the results?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 02:55:03 PM
It could promote a political culture in which local bureaucrats are tempted to do whatever will promise them more federal funding, perhaps to the detriment of staying true to their core responsibility in office of serving local communities as best they know how. If the desire here is to experiment and compare, why not begin with some sort of pilot program and then decide whether to proceed on a large scale based on the results?

I still don't see how this would harm the leaders' ability to serve their local communities.  If they do not believe it is the right policy and that more harm than good would come from law, even with the funds, then they can refuse to apply for them.  We could also, perhaps through another amendment, ensure that the funds are designated toward restructuring the schools themselves and not used in a way that benefits someone at the expense of the schools.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 21, 2012, 03:12:02 PM
I still don't see how this would harm the leaders' ability to serve their local communities.  If they do not believe it is the right policy and that more harm than good would come from law, even with the funds, then they can refuse to apply for them.  We could also, perhaps through another amendment, ensure that the funds are designated toward restructuring the schools themselves and not used in a way that benefits someone at the expense of the schools.

Schools oftentimes don't receive as many local and regional resources as they feel they need, which creates an incentive for some administrators to accept sources of federal funding - even if the policies attached are considered bad. I'm willing to work with you on this if everyone is willing to agree that the funding ought to be appraised on a school-by-school basis and strictly limited to expenditures on completing the conversion necessitated under this policy. Otherwise I feel obliged to stand by my previous post.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 21, 2012, 03:30:04 PM
I still don't see how this would harm the leaders' ability to serve their local communities.  If they do not believe it is the right policy and that more harm than good would come from law, even with the funds, then they can refuse to apply for them.  We could also, perhaps through another amendment, ensure that the funds are designated toward restructuring the schools themselves and not used in a way that benefits someone at the expense of the schools.

Schools oftentimes don't receive as many local and regional resources as they feel they need, which creates an incentive for some administrators to accept sources of federal funding - even if the policies attached are considered bad. I'm willing to work with you on this if everyone is willing to agree that the funding ought to be appraised on a school-by-school basis and strictly limited to expenditures on completing the conversion necessitated under this policy. Otherwise I feel obliged to stand by my previous post.

If the policy turns out to be bad, then we can cease continuation of the project or add a sunset provision to the bill.

Clarence, would you be open to appraising these communities on a school-by-school basis?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on July 21, 2012, 07:17:01 PM
Clarence, I am concerned that the bill would primarily hurt intact neighborhoods in urban areas by having their local schools forced into open enrollment by the district. In effect, I am worried that this will have the same result as forced busing did to many rust belt cities: the middle class moved out.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 22, 2012, 01:31:50 PM
Quote from: Amendment 50:10 by Scott
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be come from the Go Green Fund line item in the White House budget

Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 22, 2012, 03:13:19 PM
I object to this amendment.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 22, 2012, 08:51:18 PM
Redalgo- would you object if we allocated the funding specifically for schools which need it.... such as those gaining students in this arrangement?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 22, 2012, 09:57:14 PM
I would not object if the funding were allocated to schools according to the appraised costs of implementing the policy, and the federal money given via this act would be restricted in its use solely for purposes related to the policy's implementation.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 22, 2012, 10:01:27 PM
In that case- I propose the following amendment to Scott's amendment

-The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students

Does that wording sound fine, Redalgo?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 22, 2012, 10:09:35 PM
Absolutely - you have my support, in addition to my gratitude for your cooperation.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 22, 2012, 10:15:12 PM
Thank you, Redalgo... it is great to work with you on this!


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 23, 2012, 07:54:56 AM
In that case- I propose the following amendment to Scott's amendment

-The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students

Does that wording sound fine, Redalgo?

This text runs afoul of Article 4, Section 2 Clause 1 of the OSPR, for reason of lack of clarity as to how it alters the existing text. Is this suppose to be added to the text Scott is modifying or is replacing all or a part of it?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 23, 2012, 10:09:37 PM
Added to Scott's text... it is a specification on his rewards to school governing authorities


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 24, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
Quote from: Like this you mean?
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation. The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be come from the Go Green Fund line item in the White House budget


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 25, 2012, 07:35:41 AM
Scott do you approve of Clarence's desired modifications?


If so we can have one 24 hour period for Clarence's after which Redalgo's objection will be considered removed (which he will confirm) and Scott's original amendment will then be considered as passed.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 25, 2012, 09:48:15 AM
I approve.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 25, 2012, 10:01:51 AM
Senators have 24 hours to object to Clarence's amendment.



Redalgo, is you objection withdrawn should Clarence's amendment pass?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 10:06:14 AM
Again I will be vetoing this...can we move on?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 10:18:07 AM
Again I will be vetoing this...can we move on?
Considering the cooperation the Senate has had on this... it takes a whole lot for me, Scott, and Redalgo to be lock step...I believe we can override your veto


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 25, 2012, 10:18:55 AM
Mr. President,

I don't understand what you are desiring here. A bill can't simply be stopped dead in it's tracks because the President expresses his hostility to it. It will proceed under normal procedures as far as they allow and the sponsor desires, until they exhausted. If a Senator grows impatient a tabling process may be initiated but there is no guarrantee that will do anything except cause more delay. As I stated on a previous bill, such a process is time saver only if it succeeds and a time waister if it fails.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 10:25:12 AM
Mr. President,

I don't understand what you are desiring here. A bill can't simply be stopped dead in it's tracks because the President expresses his hostility to it. It will proceed under normal procedures as far as they allow and the sponsor desires, until they exhausted. If a Senator grows impatient a tabling process may be initiated but there is no guarrantee that will do anything except cause more delay. As I stated on a previous bill, such a process is time saver only if it succeeds and a time waister if it fails.

I am asking for a final vote to be called or the bill to be withdrawn..or we can draw out the process longer and get the same result but that doesn't benefit anyone.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 10:27:20 AM
Once again- I believe an override is likely if you choose to veto a bill which is the result of cooperation and compromise... this game exists to have these debates and discussions and I'm sure you don't want a productive debate to end


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 25, 2012, 10:28:30 AM
Mr. President,

I don't understand what you are desiring here. A bill can't simply be stopped dead in it's tracks because the President expresses his hostility to it. It will proceed under normal procedures as far as they allow and the sponsor desires, until they exhausted. If a Senator grows impatient a tabling process may be initiated but there is no guarrantee that will do anything except cause more delay. As I stated on a previous bill, such a process is time saver only if it succeeds and a time waister if it fails.

I am asking for a final vote to be called or the bill to be withdrawn..or we can draw out the process longer and get the same result but that doesn't benefit anyone.

The text of the bill is currently in flux, a final vote can't brought until amendments have all been considered and debate has ended naturally or procedurally.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 10:32:40 AM
Once again- I believe an override is likely if you choose to veto a bill which is the result of cooperation and compromise... this game exists to have these debates and discussions and I'm sure you don't want a productive debate to end

I don't believe an override is likely once Senators wake up and realize that all this does is kill green jobs so that we can employ more bus drivers. Never mind the fact that regions like the Northeast are perfectly able to fund regional policy decisions on their own.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 10:35:50 AM
Once again- I believe an override is likely if you choose to veto a bill which is the result of cooperation and compromise... this game exists to have these debates and discussions and I'm sure you don't want a productive debate to end

I don't believe an override is likely once Senators wake up and realize that all this does is kill green jobs so that we can employ more bus drivers. Never mind the fact that regions like the Northeast are perfectly able to fund regional policy decisions on their own.
If you wanted to debate the bill- you should have done so from the start rather then attempt to end the debate...

There's been discussion of replacing the Go Green Fund with another source and that is a compromise I am willing to make because compromise is something that ought to be valued, rather then having a point of view and refusing to budge and attempting to close debate because you don't like a bill


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
Senator I have made my position on this proposal very clear and you aren't interested in compromising.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 11:08:40 AM
Senator I have made my position on this proposal very clear and you aren't interested in compromising.
Tell that to Scott and Redalgo- with whom I've worked to amend the bill


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 11:14:15 AM
I can't even think of how this bill could be amended to get my signature.
This is the attitude you came into this bill with...

I hope the Senate will continue to discuss this bill because we can have the votes to override the President's veto he had decided on before any of this great debate and discussion took place


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 25, 2012, 02:03:01 PM
Redalgo, is you objection withdrawn should Clarence's amendment pass?

Not yet. The terms discussed with Clarence were not adequately incorporated into the text for the amendment. I took the liberty of addressing a couple other emerging concerns of mine. Once I get feedback from Clarence and Scott we can figure out what to do from there, but I'm not yet on-board with the bill as it presently stands. I am confident however that we will eventually reach a settlement that will give us enough votes for a veto override.

I was thinking something along the lines of this:


Quote from: myself as I am typing this.
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation. Districts that apply shall be awarded funding allocated according to their respective needs by the school governing authorities to schools within the districts, to be used solely for the purpose of offsetting expenses incurred upon them by the implementation of this Act. Funding shall be awarded to the aforementioned districts on an annual basis for no more than five years.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence. "School district" refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education.

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school.

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion. This spending will be placed under the line item "School Choice Transportation Assistance."

5. The funding for this line item shall come from a 10% increase to the Transportation "Other Mass Transit" line item in the White House budget.

For the record, Senator Clarence has compromised quite a bit thus far and I am open to doing the same once I've received his feedback on this, in addition to the concerns of others here.

Edit: Incidentally, I am willing to split part of the cost with the Go Green Fund if these buses in question are either constructed or modified to operate under the power of (and can readily access fuel supplies of) natural gas, biofuel (provided it gives off less air pollution than natural gas), or sets of rechargeable batteries. Mass transit is clean but I reckon it could and should be cleaner.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 02:13:26 PM
Redalgo- I support your wording generally but have a question about 5... where does that increase come from? I believe a strength of the bill is that it is revenue neutral and perhaps I am misreading here, but the increase in the Other Mass Transit line item doesn't seem to have a source identified here. Do you have ideas?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 25, 2012, 02:17:47 PM
I was simply going to have it come out of the planned budget surplus. If you would like to discuss options for where to cut some amount of spending to offset that, however, that's okay too. I just assumed that cutting a billion dollars into a ten billion dollar item would seriously jeopardize the success of several other transportation programs for which the details are unbeknownst to me.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 02:23:09 PM
I was simply going to have it come out of the planned budget surplus. If you would like to discuss options for where to cut some amount of spending to offset that, however, that's okay too. I just assumed that cutting a billion dollars into a ten billion dollar item would seriously jeopardize the success of several other transportation programs for which the details are unbeknownst to me.
I'd forgotten we had a surplus... in that case I am completely fine removing the Go Green Fund from the bill and with your version. Scott???


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 02:29:10 PM
Clarence has compromised by moving one disastrous policy to another. Quite a low standard if you ask me. I really hope it doesn't become a trend for this Senate to ignore common sense because the sponsor of a bill expresses a willingness to compromise. After all, the Fugitive Slave Act was a compromise.

The amount of money allocated for transportation by this bill would not be nearly enough to cover the costs. Has anyone thought about how this bill would actually affect policy? There is an average of 6 schools per school district. You are expecting school districts to cover the cost of transporting any student to any school. It already costs approximately $18 billion to provide transportation for K-12 students to get to the school serving their communities. You are trying to open the flood gates. Any student can go to any school and we are supposed to pay to transport them with expensive and polluting buses running multiple times through neighborhoods to get to schools all the way on the other side of town. And to do this we are expected to make it more difficult for working people to make their commute. I am absolutely bewildered.



Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 02:30:19 PM
I was simply going to have it come out of the planned budget surplus. If you would like to discuss options for where to cut some amount of spending to offset that, however, that's okay too. I just assumed that cutting a billion dollars into a ten billion dollar item would seriously jeopardize the success of several other transportation programs for which the details are unbeknownst to me.
I'd forgotten we had a surplus... in that case I am completely fine removing the Go Green Fund from the bill and with your version. Scott???

Because we are currently running a surplus we should implement a long term policy with long term costs and no direct funding?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 02:34:58 PM
While we are discussing how to waste our surplus, has anyone looked into the benefits of this bill? Like how much variance in performance typically exists within a singular school district? Not much. Its basically insignificant. School districts are normally small entities.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 02:39:47 PM
Would this bill not severely undermine efforts to racially diversify educational environs in a sizable number of districts, result in overcrowding the best schools, and eventually siphon funding away from the schools struggling the most (thus being least attractive to parents) to improve their levels of performance? I am a bit concerned about these things. What are your thoughts, Clarence? Is there a way to circumvent these issues or might they not be a priority?

Redalgo- I want to say first that I appreciate your respectful and genuine feedback event hough we do not often agree...

As for racial diversity- in Florida communities are often divided by race... there are parts of my county which have many blacks while others have many fewer. As is- with school boundaries divided geographically this results in some schools having a higher percentage of blacks then others. Giving blacks (particularly poorer blacks) the opportunity to attend schools in another area which are often higher performing would likely help diversify schools

Overcrowding- one of the problems with low performing schools is overcrowding as they don't have the resources for every child... they lack computers and sometimes even desks. Higher performing schools likely have the capacity to take in more students while lower perofrming schools would be able to concentrate their resources on the students who remain, therefore improving those student's learning experiences

Siphoning funds- I believe the above answer shows my theory- which is that the schools will eventually even out. The disparity now between high performing and low performing schools is a shame on our nation's educational system...I believe this will give equal opportunity to every student to have the best possible education

Overcrowding is a by district problem. A school district adjusts its school boundaries to ensure that all of their schools are run efficiently and overcrowding is not something that affects only one school in a district.

With an average of six schools per district, I highly doubt any racial diversity is achieved here.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 02:45:25 PM
Clarence has compromised by moving one disastrous policy to another. Quite a low standard if you ask me. I really hope it doesn't become a trend for this Senate to ignore common sense because the sponsor of a bill expresses a willingness to compromise. After all, the Fugitive Slave Act was a compromise.

You are a repulsive, loathsome individual... I'd say your immaturity never ceases to amaze be but this time- it has. I would've figured a victory would humble you as it does most people- instead, you've only extended your "my way or the highway" arrogance
If any one wants to respond to your points- they should feel free. I will choose not to engage in dialogue with a "man" who is ruining the pleasant experience of debating and discussing issues by bringing his arrogance and attitude into every discussion he enters

Grow up, Mr. President...


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on July 25, 2012, 02:53:52 PM
Mr. President, it is not productive for you to personally attack members of the Senate; it only damages your image among its members.  Voice your objections without resorting to personal attacks.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 02:55:08 PM
Clarence has compromised by moving one disastrous policy to another. Quite a low standard if you ask me. I really hope it doesn't become a trend for this Senate to ignore common sense because the sponsor of a bill expresses a willingness to compromise. After all, the Fugitive Slave Act was a compromise.

You are a repulsive, loathsome individual... I'd say your immaturity never ceases to amaze be but this time- it has. I would've figured a victory would humble you as it does most people- instead, you've only extended your "my way or the highway" arrogance
If any one wants to respond to your points- they should feel free. I will choose not to engage in dialogue with a "man" who is ruining the pleasant experience of debating and discussing issues by bringing his arrogance and attitude into every discussion he enters

Grow up, Mr. President...

You've offered no reason for adopting this policy and can't defend it so you resort to personal attacks and somehow I am the immature one? Okay. Someone dares to speak out against your bill and actually debate it's merits and you say I am ruining the experience of debate. There has been no debate until now! The whole discussion has been spent nitpicking on how to implement a policy without any peep about whether its a good or bad policy and why. Grow up Senator and learn some manners.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 02:56:30 PM
Mr. President, it is not productive for you to personally attack members of the Senate; it only damages your image among its members.  Voice your objections without resorting to personal attacks.
Clarence is the only one making personal attacks so I will assume you meant to address him.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 03:00:13 PM
Clarence has compromised by moving one disastrous policy to another. Quite a low standard if you ask me. I really hope it doesn't become a trend for this Senate to ignore common sense because the sponsor of a bill expresses a willingness to compromise. After all, the Fugitive Slave Act was a compromise.

You are a repulsive, loathsome individual... I'd say your immaturity never ceases to amaze be but this time- it has. I would've figured a victory would humble you as it does most people- instead, you've only extended your "my way or the highway" arrogance
If any one wants to respond to your points- they should feel free. I will choose not to engage in dialogue with a "man" who is ruining the pleasant experience of debating and discussing issues by bringing his arrogance and attitude into every discussion he enters

Grow up, Mr. President...

You've offered no reason for adopting this policy and can't defend it so you resort to personal attacks and somehow I am the immature one? Okay. Someone dares to speak out against your bill and actually debate it's merits and you say I am ruining the experience of debate. There has been no debate until now! The whole discussion has been spent nitpicking on how to implement a policy without any peep about whether its a good or bad policy and why. Grow up Senator and learn some manners.
I suppose it's a good thing the web gives pipsqueaks like yourself a chance to be  a "big man" and the chance to bully...

I've been standing for this issue thru out my entire time in Atlasia- in the IDS legislature, or two bills in the Senate... and go to page 1 and read from there if you believe I haven't debated or offered reasons or there's been no discussion if this is a good or bad policy


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 25, 2012, 03:04:17 PM
I'm going to make this brief... I'm really stressed today because of personal matters, so I'm sorry if I won't be as involved today.

Personally, I'd rather cut a little from each department whether than take a lot out of one expenditure.  Some can be taken from the surplus, but I don't favor reducing programs to the point that they're ineffective.

Please tone down the rhetoric here, guys.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 03:46:44 PM
I do remember when you proposed school vouchers in the IDS legislature. If I recall correctly, and I do of course, you ended up resorting to personal attacks like "douchebag" similar to what you are doing here and now instead of debating the bill. I suppose this is due to maturity?

Anyway you haven't stated why we need this policy to my standards. I have already explained how your overcrowding and racial diversity arguments don't work and I haven't seen any justification for the expense, which is going to be much larger than the funding that is currently being suggested.

I have done nothing but try to present my point of view in good faith. To be blunt I am a bit aggravated that I am expected to double duty as President and Senator. This body used to be a place where ideas were debated on their merits and from what I hear here I get the impression that we are doling out Ayes for effort which I find disturbing.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 03:59:49 PM
Things got rowdy in the IDS legislature because I was called a racist and bigot by Teddy for proposing school vouchers... something you yourself recognized was highly inappropriate considering my background and you apologized with a private message which I appreciated...you are not the only one with a fine memory

But as for "presenting your view in good faith"- is that what you call this...
Quote
Clarence has compromised by moving one disastrous policy to another. Quite a low standard if you ask me. I really hope it doesn't become a trend for this Senate to ignore common sense because the sponsor of a bill expresses a willingness to compromise. After all, the Fugitive Slave Act was a compromise.

Your second statement there is clearly a personal attack and your last statement is what makes it such a vile commentary overall...

You have ZERO authority in case you've forgotten- you are the President of a phony country on a fantasy board so get off your damned high horse and realize that some of us are here because we enjoy pleasent discussion. If any of these bills truly affected a single person- I'd disagree with but understand your insolent attitude. As they don't affect any real person- I find your attitude unbecoming of any one who calls himself a man

I should post for the record the private message I sent you first conceding the election- a polite concession hours before the final votes were cast. In it- I privately tried to give you polite advice in good faith from my far more extensive life experience then yours. If I post the message, others would agree it is polite and well intentioned... but you reacted to that in a negative way, taking offense and a similar attitude you have here. You did the same when Mechaman wrote a piece opposing Tweed's case in the Supreme Court and backing up your election because you didn't like some of what he had written... never mind that he was supporting your election

Those who want respect show respect- you've yet to show respect, and when you do I will return the favor


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 04:05:06 PM
How in the world can that second statement even be construed as a personal attack? I would love to see you explain that.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 25, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
How in the world can that second statement even be construed as a personal attack? I would love to see you explain that.
Excuse me- I meant the first... the one in which you accuse me of moving from one disastrous idea to another. This is perhaps my main problem with you Napoleon- you are more dogmatic and doctrinaire then any one else on this board! Calling something "disastrous" or comments such as "of course not" show that you are not willing to explore or consider new ideas... you are not even willing to tone down your rhetoric to make polite discussion possible. I pride myself on being open to new ideas and being willing to change based on new information- for example, I used to oppose rights for gays and lesbians and now I am proud to do so. You- on the other hand- seem to have such an inflated view that you alone are right and if one doesn't agree with you, he or she is dead wrong and either must adopt your point of view or else is not worth it. This is reflected when you made the statement earlier in this post....
Quote
Senator I have made my position on this proposal very clear and you aren't interested in compromising.

Look at that statement- after I have compromised and worked to amend this bill- as others have admitted... you state that I am not interested in compromising and before that you state you have made your position clear, as if I must somehow acquiese to your view to compromise. Your statements that we should drop this bill as you will veto it show your lack of regard for debate

Open your mind!


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 25, 2012, 04:36:53 PM
Mr. President, do you have any specific proposals that would improve the bill so that it would better fulfill its intention?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 05:03:11 PM
Mr. President, do you have any specific proposals that would improve the bill so that it would better fulfill its intention?

Kill it.

You are completely missing the point. I am not interested in fulfilling the intentions of this bill and you shouldn't be either. This is a $40 billion boondoggle by my estimates. I could not care less how the Senate decides to fund it at this point if you actually believe this policy is pratical then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 25, 2012, 05:35:04 PM
Mr. President, do you have any specific proposals that would improve the bill so that it would better fulfill its intention?

Kill it.

You are completely missing the point. I am not interested in fulfilling the intentions of this bill and you shouldn't be either. This is a $40 billion boondoggle by my estimates. I could not care less how the Senate decides to fund it at this point if you actually believe this policy is pratical then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

I believe I already indicated that I'm not automatically a vote for or against this.  I am still weighing the pros and cons of the legislation, and even if I vote against the final draft, I want Clarence and everyone else to understand that at least I looked at both arguments and based my judgment off of that instead of simply having a knee-jerk attitude against it.  But even if you don't like the mechanics of the bill itself, it's better to provide an alternative solution that aims to accomplish what this bill does in a better way (that being, of course, improving our country's education and expanding access to it).  (Personally, I'd prefer a bill that transition our nation's education system into a Finland-based one, but I'm not sure how we'd go about achieving that right now.)


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 25, 2012, 08:28:15 PM
I am still weighing the pros and cons of the legislation, and even if I vote against the final draft, I want Clarence and everyone else to understand that at least I looked at both arguments and based my judgment off of that instead of simply having a knee-jerk attitude against it. 

Is that what you think I've done? Sorry, I've actually researched how this bill would affect the status quo to reach my conclusion. There is no compromise that could make this function practically.

Let's take a look at what this bill does. It gives money to school districts to provide transportation to any school from any neighborhood. Buses can't just pick kids up from a neighborhood and go from school to school. Many schools start at the same time, so that's a lot of buses and buses are expensive. That's a lot of miles, and gasoline is expensive. That's a lot of kids to a lot of schools. I really feel like I'm the only person who has thought about the impact of this bill. Now, as I said, it gives money to school districts, but it doesn't fund transportation. $1 billion is not nearly enough money to cover the costs incurred. Considering the cost of buses and gasoline and the number of schools per district, my estimation is that at least forty times that is needed to actually work, and that is a lot of money.

Now let's focus on the merits of this bill. Yes, allowing parents to send there child to the school they want to is a good idea but on who's dime? Does the outcome justify the cost? Most school districts are small- it isn't as if you will find really good schools and really bad schools within a single district very often. So what tangible benefits will be seen from this bill, and how in the world could they outweigh a $40 billion price tag?

You- on the other hand- seem to have such an inflated view that you alone are right and if one doesn't agree with you, he or she is dead wrong and either must adopt your point of view or else is not worth it.

I do believe that in regard to this bill, quite strongly in fact. I encourage you to explain how this bill would do anything other than create chaos. You haven't provided any argument as to why this policy should be adopted: the only favorable comments you made of the bill I've shown can't really apply- the racial diversity and overcrowding arguments don't align with the reality of our education system.


Quote
Clarence has compromised by moving one disastrous policy to another. Quite a low standard if you ask me. I really hope it doesn't become a trend for this Senate to ignore common sense because the sponsor of a bill expresses a willingness to compromise. After all, the Fugitive Slave Act was a compromise.

Your second statement there is clearly a personal attack and your last statement is what makes it such a vile commentary overall...

Senator, that second statement is in no way a personal attack and cannot even be stretched or twisted into such. Quite clearly, I stated that your willing to compromise (which is respectable, but in this case, impossible) has resulted only in making a bad policy into a different bad policy, and saying that is a poor standard on which to judge legislation. This is in response to a Redalgo post which has since been edited out of the form my response was to. The point was that compromise is good, but you can't vote for a bad policy just because compromises were made to get there. Voting on legislation should be about the policy itself and not the process- and this process has been dreadful by the standards of this esteemed body.

The last statement was included to demonstrate that compromise in and of itself is not a virtue, and does not make something worthy of becoming law. Compromise can be good, compromise can be bad, just like anything else.

I believe that working to improve a bill is a good thing but I understand this bill is unworkable in any form if the goals Senator Clarence has set out are to be achieved, so I recommend not spending more time on it. In no way is this an attempt to stifle debate. See the problem Clarence is that there hasn't been any debate (maybe that's what made it enjoyable?), and no one was, until I spoke out, focused on the merits of the policy itself. Hopefully we can now reach a decision on this by considering the relevant facts and realize not every bill was meant to be passed.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 25, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
I have done nothing but try to present my point of view in good faith. To be blunt I am a bit aggravated that I am expected to double duty as President and Senator. This body used to be a place where ideas were debated on their merits and from what I hear here I get the impression that we are doling out Ayes for effort which I find disturbing.

Nobody expects you to be both a President and Senator, and to be fair I try to look for flaws in legislation, and object to them insofar as I (a.) care about the issues at hand, (b.) know about the issues at hand, and (c.) am not letting any legislation which offends my conscience pass through the Senate unopposed. On this particular piece of legislation I don’t much care about where children go to school and am thus inclined to let Clarence have what he wants within reason, know next to nothing about busing children - again making me feel inclined to defer to others’ judgments (researching the matter is a waste of my valuable, finite resource of time given what I perceive to be this bill’s low levels of impact and personal importance), and within the scope of what I already knew earlier on there were no consequences to this legislation that appeared to be morally objectionable (well, at least at the point we would have been at after implementing the amendment(s)). Now I have become relatively uncertain about what this legislation will accomplish again.

As semi-helpful as it is that you welcomed yourself onto the floor to speak on the matter, if the relatively inactive half of the Senate were willing to speak up more frequently maybe  concerns such as those you have expressed would have already been aired by now. Your arguments make me curious to see where this discussion carries on to, and has at least temporarily drawn me back into the camp of opposition, but so long as the atmosphere for debate here is toxic I have no interest in wading into the fray and jeopardizing the continued pleasantness of my splendid summer evening. I am willing to hear out anything folks have to say here, but will not suffer dramatic shenanigans and heated rhetoric over this kind of stuff.

Aside from that, as an afterthought, what does the Senate think of re-purposing the bill to allow parents to have their children attend public schools of their choices provided that it is the parent - not school district(s) involved - who are left to be wholly responsible for transporting their child or children? This would circumvent the cost of taking buses out of their usual ways, would it not? Does anybody else have ideas to bounce off of the President now that he has become firmly embedded in the fabric that is this discussion?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on July 25, 2012, 10:44:32 PM

Aside from that, as an afterthought, what does the Senate think of re-purposing the bill to allow parents to have their children attend public schools of their choices provided that it is the parent - not school district(s) involved - who are left to be wholly responsible for transporting their child or children? This would circumvent the cost of taking buses out of their usual ways, would it not? Does anybody else have ideas to bounce off of the President now that he has become firmly embedded in the fabric that is this discussion?

Actually I would much prefer this to having the school help responsible for busing.

In Ohio, we have an open-enrollment law that allows schools to admit students from neighboring districts, if the school chooses to take part, and the funding for that student is transferred to the district the student attends. But the school provides no transportation and the parents are responsible for that.

This bill is designed to be restricted to a single district, which means many, probably most, districts in the country will be completely unaffected because they only have one high school. The idea is more similar to the system in Arizona where parents can choose which school in the district to send their kids to. The school my sister taught at there was rated the best in the district (a pretty poor, heavily minority district much like her school) in test score improvements one year, so the next year they had a huge surge in enrollment. In some ways it was a good thing to have since parents had the option of sending their children to the best public school in the area, but it also caused overcrowding issues because the school, despite having the power to reject students, would reject no one.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Gustaf on July 26, 2012, 02:04:37 AM
Could I point out that we have this type of system in Sweden and there is no chaos or exploding costs that I'm aware of? Although, we don't do school buses, you just pay for the kids getting a public transportation card and let the families figure out transport on their own. I commuted almost an hour for several years to get to a good school in the city rather than the local one.

Also, as moderator, chill people.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on July 26, 2012, 03:49:40 AM
I think we should allow open enrollment but we shouldn't pay for transportation. If you want to send your kid to a school farther away, you should arrange for the transportation.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 26, 2012, 06:34:49 AM
I think we should allow open enrollment but we shouldn't pay for transportation. If you want to send your kid to a school farther away, you should arrange for the transportation.

School districts can already allow that if they want; this bill is only about paying for transportation.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 26, 2012, 06:37:32 AM
Could I point out that we have this type of system in Sweden and there is no chaos or exploding costs that I'm aware of? Although, we don't do school buses, you just pay for the kids getting a public transportation card and let the families figure out transport on their own. I commuted almost an hour for several years to get to a good school in the city rather than the local one.

Also, as moderator, chill people.

Right the whole price tag is for transportation though so... :/


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 26, 2012, 08:50:06 AM
Debating the purpose of the bill is certainly in order and in fact a necessity considering there are so many concerns. In the past though, there has been some bit of deference to aid in the fixing of bills one finds repulsive simply so that it is functional if it does pass and it is a diplomatic gesture prior to one taking a meat cleaver to it on the final vote.

What is not appropriate is what has occured in the past two and a half pages of this thread which have served only to degrade the quality of the Senate, lessen the standing of the oval office and the man who occupies it, and go so far as to require admonition from the Moderator General. I must say it is positively repulsive what has occurred in this thread and I frankly can't see how any of the participants of such have gained anything positive from engaging in it.



Clarence's amendment has two hours left, and I haven't seen an objection to that so at Scott's amendment will be altered as such. However, Scott's amendment remains objected to by Senator Redalgo pending further discussion and possible compromise.

At some point it may be advisable to either let Scott's amendment pass, vote on it or for Scott to withdraw it in favor of a new amendment because, as one can surmise, remaining in limbo on the same amendment could get rather impractical you might say.




Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 26, 2012, 09:50:32 AM
I am formally withdrawing my objection, though it seems quite clear to me that further amending is required if this bill is to ultimately get anywhere.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 26, 2012, 09:59:44 AM
I am formally withdrawing my objection, though it seems quite clear to me that further amending is required if this bill is to ultimately get anywhere.

It is just a procedural thing anyway and trying to attach solutions to all this bill's problems on top of a single amendment by poor old Scott, isn't realistic.

Also, considering that there current breakdown of the amendment tracker, is 8 by Scott, 3 by me and one by Clarence, it might better not to make it look like Scott has become an unofficial ombudsmen of the Senate. He might start demanding better pay and a larger office. :P Don't get me wrong, he is amending at a reasonable pace, it is that everyone else sucks at it. :(


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 26, 2012, 12:02:26 PM
Both Clarence's and Scott's amendments have passed.

Quote from: Current Text
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation. The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be come from the Go Green Fund line item in the White House budget


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on July 26, 2012, 12:50:41 PM
Quote from: Proposed Amendment
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation. The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be an additional appropriation in the budget


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 26, 2012, 12:59:02 PM
Quote from: Amendment 50:13 by Ben
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation. The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be an additional appropriation in the budget

Sponsor Feedback: Searching Database
Status: Undefined Quantity


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 26, 2012, 01:33:57 PM
I am formally withdrawing my objection, though it seems quite clear to me that further amending is required if this bill is to ultimately get anywhere.

...
 
Also, considering that there current breakdown of the amendment tracker, is 8 by Scott, 3 by me and one by Clarence, it might better not to make it look like Scott has become an unofficial ombudsmen of the Senate. He might start demanding better pay and a larger office. :P Don't get me wrong, he is amending at a reasonable pace, it is that everyone else sucks at it. :(

I may try to start offering amendments at some point but I am completely inexperienced with them, easily forget the associated procedures, usually am unclear on what people want until it is either too late or an amendment or two has already been proposed and needs dealing with, and such. In my first term some of this stuff is still fairly confusing to me. xD


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on July 26, 2012, 01:35:02 PM
Do't worry, guys, I'll be offering more amendments as the session progresses.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 26, 2012, 02:28:46 PM
Ben's amendment is friendly...


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 27, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: Amendment 50:13 by Ben
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation. The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be an additional appropriation in the budget

Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on July 27, 2012, 11:56:08 AM
Here's an amendment to make parents responsible for their child's transportation:

Quote
Power to Parents Act

...

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school Families will be responsible to provide transportation to their students who elect to attend a school other than that which the student would attend without parental choice.

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”


...



Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 27, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Senator TJ, I like your amendment .


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 27, 2012, 04:55:02 PM
Given what I've read here over the past few days I now... er... agree with Napoleon?

Edit: Ah, nevermind. I misread it after all.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 28, 2012, 10:51:54 AM
Ben's amendment has passed


TJ does your amendment need to be altered to reflect the passage of Ben's? It sort of renders the fifth clause he added irrelevant, does it? So my suggestion would be to put it in the text and then strike it through as well to indicate its elimination.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on July 28, 2012, 01:05:33 PM
Ben's amendment has passed


TJ does your amendment need to be altered to reflect the passage of Ben's? It sort of renders the fifth clause he added irrelevant, does it? So my suggestion would be to put it in the text and then strike it through as well to indicate its elimination.

No it doesn't. Item 1 of the bill was not struck in my amendment so Item 5 must remain, otherwise there would be no point in the bill at all.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 28, 2012, 01:37:06 PM
Quote from: Amendent 50:17 by TJ in Cleve
Power to Parents Act

...

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school Families will be responsible to provide transportation to their students who elect to attend a school other than that which the student would attend without parental choice.

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”


...


Sponsor Feedback: Unclear
Status: Pending Feedback


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 30, 2012, 10:08:20 AM
Did Clarence leave again for something?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 30, 2012, 11:19:24 AM
Ya - I don't recall when he is getting back though.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 30, 2012, 11:22:34 AM
I posted a Leave of Absence thread like you asked, Yankee! I am back now from your stomping grounds in North Carolina...

I'd like to ask TJ- you are attempting to eliminate the transportation assistance? That is the goal of your amendment?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on July 30, 2012, 11:25:39 AM
I posted a Leave of Absence thread like you asked, Yankee! I am back now from your stomping grounds in North Carolina...

I'd like to ask TJ- you are attempting to eliminate the transportation assistance? That is the goal of your amendment?

Yea I saw that one, but for some reason thought you had already returned from that one. :P


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on July 30, 2012, 11:25:47 AM
I'd like to ask TJ- you are attempting to eliminate the transportation assistance? That is the goal of your amendment?

Yes. I'm all for giving parents the power to choose schools, but if they are going to choose a school their child wouldn't otherwise the parents ought to have the responsibility to get their kids there. If they really want their kids to go there, they'll find a way.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on July 30, 2012, 11:39:36 AM
I'd like to ask TJ- you are attempting to eliminate the transportation assistance? That is the goal of your amendment?

Yes. I'm all for giving parents the power to choose schools, but if they are going to choose a school their child wouldn't otherwise the parents ought to have the responsibility to get their kids there. If they really want their kids to go there, they'll find a way.

The benefit I see to this is that it could potentially prevent overcrowding at certain schools... the other side of this is that it could prevent lower income students from having access to the finest schools which is one of the major intentions behind this legislation

Redalgo and Scott- what are your thoughts?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 30, 2012, 01:12:57 PM
I have some concerns with this amendment.  If fewer low-income students are attending the better schools, then not only would they be deprived of the better education, but student diversity would be lower in these schools.

I don't have a very favorable opinion on this.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Redalgo on July 30, 2012, 01:18:03 PM
From what I have read, I'm now inclined to oppose the bill in any of its proposed forms. No ideas come to mind on how to salvage the provisions so that its overall impact is suitably positive. Sorry. D:


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on July 30, 2012, 01:26:23 PM
I have some concerns with this amendment.  If fewer low-income students are attending the better schools, then not only would they be deprived of the better education, but student diversity would be lower in these schools.

I don't have a very favorable opinion on this.

Senator, have you considered that the variation in school performance within individual districts is nearly nonexistent?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on July 30, 2012, 01:45:43 PM
I have some concerns with this amendment.  If fewer low-income students are attending the better schools, then not only would they be deprived of the better education, but student diversity would be lower in these schools.

I don't have a very favorable opinion on this.

Senator, have you considered that the variation in school performance within individual districts is nearly nonexistent?

Would you provide a link that shows this information?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 01, 2012, 11:46:59 AM
Are we going somewhere with this?


The amendment is still in limbo without a sponsor feedback.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 01, 2012, 12:14:04 PM
I'm going to put it as unfriendly but haven't decided whether or not I will vote for it yet... I'd like to see the President respond to Senator Scott


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 01, 2012, 08:22:22 PM
Here are some maps you can look at: http://schoolperformancemaps.com/ (http://schoolperformancemaps.com/)

As you can see, schools in the same areas perform very similarly. The major outlier would be Florida, which has each county functioning as a school district. But if you're expecting the federal government to send buses from inner city Miami to any of many wealthier exurbs, well, sorry, we just can't afford that. I also question whether parents would like to stick their children on a bus to take them twenty miles away from home everyday instead of keeping them in their communities with their friends and neighbors.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 01, 2012, 08:35:49 PM
Napoleon- you've mentioned a few times that you did something similar in the Northeast... how is what you did in the Northeast different from this bill in substance beyond the fact the one is regional and one is national? Is it simply the stipend for transportation?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 01, 2012, 08:38:28 PM
Napoleon- you've mentioned a few times that you did something similar in the Northeast... how is what you did in the Northeast different from this bill in substance beyond the fact the one is regional and one is national? Is it simply the stipend for transportation?

I didn't actually do it- that was Andrew when he was Governor. The law is also a bit different.

Quote from: Public School Choice Act of 2008
1. The government of the Northeast shall allow students of age to be enrolled in primary and secondary public schools in the Northeast region to attend public schools other than those in their own school district.
2. Students in the Northeast may attend any school within a 10-mile radius of the residence of that student in counties designated as urban, and within a 30-mile radius in counties designated as rural.

I think the Public School Choice Act is a good law. But as you know, I believe these policies are best left up to regional governments and local school districts. My cousin is a teacher and when I asked her what she thought the sort of policy originally proposed would do in real life, she replied that it would be unmanageable chaos. We absolutely cannot afford to pay for this sort of massive scale school transportation, especially when you match it up with the benefits enacting the policy would provide.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 01, 2012, 08:40:57 PM
How would you feel about an amendment to make this bill the same as the Northeast bill- simply on a national level?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 01, 2012, 08:42:46 PM
How would you feel about an amendment to make this bill the same as the Northeast bill- simply on a national level?

I would consider it unconstitutional. :(

Quote
No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

I think you have misunderstood me throughout this debate. I've really thought about all the angles that could be taken here, I just couldn't find any that would work. It isn't that I didn't want to. I also felt it better to be honest when I plan on vetoing something because we have other things to debate, so I didn't mean for you to take it as me being rude. For example, how long should a good Senate sit on a resolution for authorizing force on Iran? Even if I disagree with that too I feel like you proposed it because you felt there was a sense of urgency. That's the only reason why I suggested tabling this bill, not because I wanted to "have my way".


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 01, 2012, 08:45:20 PM
How so... you mentioned in your press conference you are working on a national university bill


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 01, 2012, 08:47:15 PM
How so... you mentioned in your press conference you are working on a national university bill

Please read my edited post above.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on August 01, 2012, 10:51:53 PM
How about only providing transportation to families below 133% of the poverty line? I will not support a bill where we provide transportation to anyone who wants to send their kids to a far away school. I also think just passing the bill without any transportation support would create an even greater problem in lower income schools with even greater concentration of poverty in those schools since those who can afford it would transport their kids to another school. It would basically help those who can't afford to buy a house or rent in a good school district but still have the resources to transport their kids across town. It won't help the real poor which I think is the intent of this bill.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on August 01, 2012, 10:57:40 PM
Or we could do something similar to the Northeast law and force the regions to adopt it by threatening to take away their healthcare money?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 01, 2012, 11:09:22 PM
How would you feel about an amendment to make this bill the same as the Northeast bill- simply on a national level?

I would consider it unconstitutional. :(

Quote
No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

I think you have misunderstood me throughout this debate. I've really thought about all the angles that could be taken here, I just couldn't find any that would work. It isn't that I didn't want to. I also felt it better to be honest when I plan on vetoing something because we have other things to debate, so I didn't mean for you to take it as me being rude. For example, how long should a good Senate sit on a resolution for authorizing force on Iran? Even if I disagree with that too I feel like you proposed it because you felt there was a sense of urgency. That's the only reason why I suggested tabling this bill, not because I wanted to "have my way".
I respect that point of view and appreciate that you took the time to clear this up....

As for the Constitutional aspect- I don't believe this bill requires action by the regions as it is setting a national policy... I believe Sban's second statement would violate that clause moreso. However- I agree with Sbane's first statement...we need to ensure that the poorest students are able to benefit most as there is a correlation between poverty and lack of quality education- this as you know creates a vicious cycle of continued poverty


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 02, 2012, 02:31:24 AM
How about only providing transportation to families below 133% of the poverty line? I will not support a bill where we provide transportation to anyone who wants to send their kids to a far away school.

It sounds good in theory, but I challenge you to explain how in the world that would work. Cab drivers? I mean...

Quote
I also think just passing the bill without any transportation support would create an even greater problem in lower income schools with even greater concentration of poverty in those schools since those who can afford it would transport their kids to another school.

How many parents would actually do this? You'll be traveling awfully far from home from Brownsville, Brooklyn or East Los Angeles before getting to a decent public school. Those who can afford it have already been placed in private schools anyway.

Quote
It would basically help those who can't afford to buy a house or rent in a good school district but still have the resources to transport their kids across town. It won't help the real poor which I think is the intent of this bill.

They can only choose from the schools within that district under this plan (not that I believe the federal government can or should force a change like this).

Or we could do something similar to the Northeast law and force the regions to adopt it by threatening to take away their healthcare money?

And why would we want to do that?? If I were a regional Governor or school board member I would be pretty peeved to discover that my community wouldn't get health care funding unless they start paying for children to get transported to a farther failing public school instead of the one down the street from them.

As for the Constitutional aspect- I don't believe this bill requires action by the regions as it is setting a national policy... I believe Sban's second statement would violate that clause moreso.

That isn't my experience with the clause. Besides, K-12 education is quite clearly the domain of the regions and forcing a policy like this to be adopted would be found by a reasonable Court to be in violation of that. Senator Sbane's suggestion would make it constitutional, because at that point they aren't forced to make the change, but it would be a textbook example of using a nuclear bomb to kill a housefly.

However- I agree with Sbane's first statement...we need to ensure that the poorest students are able to benefit most as there is a correlation between poverty and lack of quality education- this as you know creates a vicious cycle of continued poverty

Well yeah...but why? Will this change their school quality? Not really. Will this improve their family life (the biggest problem, I would think)? Not at all. The real problem, of course, is that regions seem to still fund education through property taxes for the most part. I don't even think changing that would be very helpful though. I sympathize with the intent of this policy but have no faith in its ability to actually fulfill that goal.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on August 02, 2012, 03:59:07 AM
How about only providing transportation to families below 133% of the poverty line? I will not support a bill where we provide transportation to anyone who wants to send their kids to a far away school.

It sounds good in theory, but I challenge you to explain how in the world that would work. Cab drivers? I mean...

I was thinking more of vouchers rather than sending cab drivers around to pick up kids lol. Obviously it won't be as convenient as having the government pick the kids up from near their home but we can provide resources to the parents so they can arrange for another method of transportation. The lack of proper public transit will be a problem in many areas though.....

Quote
I also think just passing the bill without any transportation support would create an even greater problem in lower income schools with even greater concentration of poverty in those schools since those who can afford it would transport their kids to another school.

How many parents would actually do this? You'll be traveling awfully far from home from Brownsville, Brooklyn or East Los Angeles before getting to a decent public school. Those who can afford it have already been placed in private schools anyway.

I think your concerns are more valid in more rural areas with widespread poverty as opposed to urban areas with concentrations of poverty. At least in the case of East Los Angeles, there are many good school districts close by like Monterey Park and Alhambra to a certain extent. Temple City and Arcadia are exceptional. All within about a 30 minute drive. But yeah, many parents wouldn't take you up on the offer even if you give them gas money and some more.

It would basically help those who can't afford to buy a house or rent in a good school district but still have the resources to transport their kids across town. It won't help the real poor which I think is the intent of this bill.

They can only choose from the schools within that district under this plan (not that I believe the federal government can or should force a change like this).

Yes, which is why I propose we do something like the Northeast and let them attend any public school of their choice regardless of district. As for taking away healthcare funding, that is how the federal government makes the states do things in real life. Roberts of course put some limits on that, but Ebowed and Opebo might not see it the same way. ;)



Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: AndrewTX on August 02, 2012, 10:12:37 AM
Ah, yes. I slightly remember that bill from the Northeast. Back in the good ol days. I need to look back at it though.. for some reason I feel like I threatened to veto that one.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 02, 2012, 10:40:49 AM
I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 02, 2012, 10:46:52 AM
I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?

This is the federal government trying to force the regions to do what the fed wants with regional dollars. Health care uses federal dollars and didn't force other regional or local governments to change their policies.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 02, 2012, 10:49:34 AM
I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?

This is the federal government trying to force the regions to do what the fed wants with regional dollars. Health care uses federal dollars and didn't force other regional or local governments to change their policies.
This bill sets a national policy- just like every other bill before this body does. Federal dollars come from citizens who live in regions as this bill's funding would... I don't see the difference. What about an illegal immigration amnesty bill or something along those lines- I am sure something like that or the Dream Act has passed thru here...


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 02, 2012, 10:55:49 AM
You really can't see the difference?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on August 02, 2012, 11:00:11 AM
I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?

Yes we can use something else as the carrot.

Also Napolean, isn't the transportation money coming from the Feds? No one is forcing the regions to spend money. We should only ensure they open their schools to enrollment regardless of location. The Northeast of course wouldn't even be impacted.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 02, 2012, 11:00:39 AM
I see the examples we are listing as setting a national policy- as this bill aims to do. A bill which infringes on regional rights would be mandating a regional financial contribution for this... but that isn't being done


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 02, 2012, 11:17:25 AM
I see the examples we are listing as setting a national policy- as this bill aims to do. A bill which infringes on regional rights would be mandating a regional financial contribution for this... but that isn't being done

Oh this will certainly cost regions and school districts quite a bit of money Senator. Think about the impact. This will even put a burden on regions like the Northeast that already allow this.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on August 02, 2012, 11:20:01 AM
How will it cost regions money?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Napoleon on August 02, 2012, 11:23:14 AM

The administrative costs will be quite hefty.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on August 02, 2012, 11:43:05 AM
I was under the impression that all the costs would be borne by the Feds, regardless of how much or how much the regions might have to spend from their budgets.  Nevertheless, this bill will be very expensive..


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 02, 2012, 12:49:48 PM
Is my understanding correct that no agreement has been reached between the sponsor and the amendment sponsor and thus a vote is in order on it?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 02, 2012, 01:36:22 PM
Quote
No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

I think you have misunderstood me throughout this debate. I've really thought about all the angles that could be taken here, I just couldn't find any that would work. It isn't that I didn't want to. I also felt it better to be honest when I plan on vetoing something because we have other things to debate, so I didn't mean for you to take it as me being rude. For example, how long should a good Senate sit on a resolution for authorizing force on Iran? Even if I disagree with that too I feel like you proposed it because you felt there was a sense of urgency. That's the only reason why I suggested tabling this bill, not because I wanted to "have my way".


Ah, Mr. President, there are three open slots that can be reasonably used to accomodate a rush on an issue such as the Iran Authortization (PPT, Emergency, and Foreign Policy), if such were requested by the sponsor. I was under the impression that the National Security committee wanted to paw through it first, as well.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 02, 2012, 01:54:26 PM
The NSC is going to handle the Treaty Ratification Amendment, and then we will handle the Iranian Resolution.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Sbane on August 02, 2012, 02:50:40 PM

Could you expand on that a little further? Imnot seeing why those costs would rise.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 02, 2012, 03:08:39 PM
Is my understanding correct that no agreement has been reached between the sponsor and the amendment sponsor and thus a vote is in order on it?
Unfriendly... I believe assistance for districts to offset costs and assistance to parents is crucial for this bill

Sbane- I agree with you that I don't see costs would significantly rise and if they do- so be it. I believe this is a worthy expenditure that will improve the education fo rmany across the country


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 03, 2012, 10:33:34 AM
Quote from: Amendent 50:17 by TJ in Cleve
Power to Parents Act

...

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school Families will be responsible to provide transportation to their students who elect to attend a school other than that which the student would attend without parental choice.

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”


...


Sponsor Feedback: Unfriendly
Status: Senators a vote is now open on the amendment, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: Redalgo on August 03, 2012, 01:56:18 PM
Nay


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on August 03, 2012, 02:05:18 PM
Nay.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 03, 2012, 02:10:39 PM
Nay

I appreciate the intent of the sponsor... but believe it takes away a good chunk of what we need to make this policy a success and impact those who we want to reach


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 03, 2012, 02:59:50 PM
Nay


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on August 03, 2012, 03:00:23 PM
Aye


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: Sbane on August 03, 2012, 11:39:12 PM
Nay...still conflicted about the whole bill. Let's see what we end up with.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Amendment at Vote)
Post by: LastVoter on August 04, 2012, 01:54:51 AM
Nay


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 04, 2012, 09:51:47 AM
Aye



Aye (2): NC Yankee and TJ in Cleve
Nay (6): Ben, Clarence, Redalgo, sbane, Scott and Seatown
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (2): AndrewPA and Worms

The amendment is not adopted.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 05, 2012, 03:19:37 PM
Well, what is next?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 05, 2012, 09:16:49 PM
I believe we are ready for a final vote....however if anyone has a request or comments, I am of course willing to discuss further-


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 06, 2012, 03:43:28 PM
Senators this bill is now at final vote, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on August 06, 2012, 04:03:30 PM
What is the final text?


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: Redalgo on August 06, 2012, 08:17:08 PM
Nay


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: Sbane on August 07, 2012, 01:02:31 AM
Nay.

I don't think this bill works but we could encourage the regions to pass a law similar to what the Northeast has. In the end I came to the conclusion that the best thing to do was to pass what the Northeast has, but since my colleagues found that compelling regions to do it by denying them funding was unconstitutional, I have no choice but to abandon this bill.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: LastVoter on August 07, 2012, 01:28:14 AM
Nay


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 07, 2012, 01:07:07 PM
Aye


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 07, 2012, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: Final Text
Power to Parents Act

1. Each school governing authority in the Republic of Atlasia will be given the option of adopting the policies put forward by this legislation.  Districts that apply will be rewarded $1,000,000 for participation. The participation reward shall be allocated according to need by the school governing authority to schools within the district and will be used only for the purposes of providing resources to expand the school's capacity for students.

2. Parents or legal guardians may choose to send their child to any public school within their school district of residence
   -”School district” refers to the governing area of a particular board, government, or administration established to operate K-12 education

3. Families may apply to the school district for financial assistance for the purposes of transportation of the student to and from school

4. To fund this financial assistance $1,000,000,000 will be allocated to the regions proximate to population, to then be allocated to school districts by the same criterion
   -This spending will be placed under the line item “School Choice Transportation Assistance”

5. The funding for this line item will be an additional appropriation in the budget


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 07, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Aye


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on August 07, 2012, 07:41:30 PM
I didn't want to do this, but nay.

I don't think we were able to find much common ground or work out the bugs with this legislation.  I hope we can craft a better, comprehensive education plan when sbane's bill comes to the floor.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on August 07, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
Nay...

To second everyone else, I wanted to support this but there just wasn't the will in the senate to try and make it work.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 07, 2012, 09:32:20 PM
TJ's comments about lack of will in the Senate to make this happen are very accurate....


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 07, 2012, 09:41:30 PM
TJ's comments about lack of will in the Senate to make this happen are very accurate....
I'd like to rephrase this... it was not a lack of will to propose ideas- I believe TJ, Scott, Redalgo, and Sbane and even Napoleon all contributed to that. I simply believe many of us were too far apart on this issue


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: LastVoter on August 08, 2012, 12:40:53 AM
nay


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: AndrewTX on August 08, 2012, 07:59:50 AM
Ehh.....I'm gonna have to vote Nay on this.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (At Final Vote)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 08, 2012, 03:50:41 PM
Nay

This has enough votes to fail, Senators have 24 hours to change there vote. It is a shame to be sure.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Failed)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 09, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
Vote on Final Passage of the Power to Parents Act:

Aye (2): Ben and Clarence
Nay (7): AndrewPA, NC Yankee, Redalgo, sbane, Scott, Seatown, and TJ in Cleve
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1): Wormyguy of course


With seven nays, the bill has failed to achieve passage.


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Failed)
Post by: LastVoter on August 11, 2012, 09:13:36 PM
Vote on Final Passage of the Power to Parents Act:

Aye (2): Ben and Clarence
Nay (7): AndrewPA, NC Yankee, Redalgo, sbane, Scott, Seatown, and TJ in Cleve
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1): Wormyguy of course


With seven nays, the bill has failed to achieve passage.
We should start impeachment procedures against wormyguy


Title: Re: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Failed)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 23, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
Vote on Final Passage of the Power to Parents Act:

Aye (2): Ben and Clarence
Nay (7): AndrewPA, NC Yankee, Redalgo, sbane, Scott, Seatown, and TJ in Cleve
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1): Wormyguy of course


With seven nays, the bill has failed to achieve passage.
We should start impeachment procedures against wormyguy

I believe the 11th would have been too early to do that. But it hardly matters now. :P