Talk Elections

General Politics => Individual Politics => Topic started by: You kip if you want to... on August 01, 2012, 04:47:50 PM



Title: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: You kip if you want to... on August 01, 2012, 04:47:50 PM
Discuss.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on August 01, 2012, 05:12:20 PM
That depends on whether or not in this scenario I am Quebécois (or not).


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Vosem on August 01, 2012, 05:31:35 PM
That depends on whether or not in this scenario I am Quebécois (or not).

For me the choice is obvious, Quebecois or not (go Charest!). Although honestly if it was necessary I would support any of the three to stop Khadir.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Leftbehind on August 01, 2012, 05:34:29 PM
QS.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: You kip if you want to... on August 01, 2012, 05:53:09 PM
That depends on whether or not in this scenario I am Quebécois (or not).

For me the choice is obvious, Quebecois or not (go Charest!). Although honestly if it was necessary I would support any of the three to stop Khadir.

You're faced with Charest, Marois and Legault and Khadir is the the one you'd want to stop? ::)


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: RogueBeaver on August 01, 2012, 05:55:32 PM
Charest, speaking as a Québécois.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Vosem on August 01, 2012, 05:59:20 PM
That depends on whether or not in this scenario I am Quebécois (or not).

For me the choice is obvious, Quebecois or not (go Charest!). Although honestly if it was necessary I would support any of the three to stop Khadir.

You're faced with Charest, Marois and Legault and Khadir is the the one you'd want to stop? ::)

Throwing shoes at Bush, organizing anti-Israeli boycotts, ranting about the awfulness of neoliberalism. Quebec solidaire includes openly communist and Marxist groups...of course Khadir is the one I want to stop.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 01, 2012, 06:01:33 PM
But he doesn't actually stand a chance of becoming Premier so... er...


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: RogueBeaver on August 01, 2012, 06:02:46 PM
Only Charest or Marois have a shot at becoming Premier, and I'd put odds on Charest simply because he's the better campaigner and this election will be won in the campaign.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Vosem on August 01, 2012, 09:59:27 PM
But he doesn't actually stand a chance of becoming Premier so... er...

I know that, but the poll offers him as a choice, so I point out that my support for Charest is conditional on QS having no chance.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: RogueBeaver on August 01, 2012, 10:17:05 PM
QS doesn't have a chance at anything except perhaps siphoning votes away from Marois in places where she'd need them to form government.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on August 02, 2012, 01:48:16 AM
PQ is the least bad with the best chance, so Marois.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Hash on August 02, 2012, 05:45:02 AM
None of the above, but definitely Charest the Crook.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Donerail on August 02, 2012, 09:26:14 AM
If I were Quebécois, then Legault, but since I'm not, Khadir, for the reasons Vosem named, plus the fact he may be funding his own militia in Iran.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Holmes on August 02, 2012, 05:17:14 PM
That depends on whether or not in this scenario I am Quebécois (or not).

For me the choice is obvious, Quebecois or not (go Charest!). Although honestly if it was necessary I would support any of the three to stop Khadir.

You're faced with Charest, Marois and Legault and Khadir is the the one you'd want to stop? ::)

Throwing shoes at Bush, organizing anti-Israeli boycotts, ranting about the awfulness of neoliberalism. Quebec solidaire includes openly communist and Marxist groups...of course Khadir is the one I want to stop.

Well, sign me up? Especially since I don't support Charest or separatists. :)


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: You kip if you want to... on September 04, 2012, 10:19:29 AM
Definitely worth a bump.

I just voted Legault, despite hating all three. I'd vote Liberal or CAQ in my riding, depending on who's more likely to win.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 04, 2012, 11:07:04 AM
To attempt to answer this question is difficult. I would vote against the Liberal candidate wherever I happened to live, I suspect.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on September 04, 2012, 11:13:35 AM
I'll take the Liberals, corrupt as they are, over anti-Anglophone bigots. Voted Khadir though.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: You kip if you want to... on September 04, 2012, 11:15:13 AM
I'll take the Liberals, corrupt as they are, over anti-Anglophone bigots. Voted Khadir though.

Sort've my thinking.

This is such a messed up election and i'm so glad i'm not a Quebecois today.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 04, 2012, 11:19:29 AM
The language laws are supported by all major parties in Quebec.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on September 04, 2012, 11:28:37 AM
I cannot stomach any of the three major parties, so I picked Khadir. Though, I would probably not vote QS either. Im supporting the UCQ in ridings where they are running, and then the Greens and then QS.  But, I don't live in Quebec and thus don't have that dilemna.

Interestingly, my friend's parents are voting QS (they live in the Pontiac riding). His mom showed up to his birthday party with an orange "Debout" pin. Didn't say QS on it, so I didnt realize it was political til later. It's strange because my friend is pretty right wing, and his parents don't seem that left wing. But, they're public servants.

I have debated moving to Quebec in the past. The rent there is cheaper, and I could get my drivers licenced bumped up without taking another test.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on September 04, 2012, 03:37:58 PM
The language laws are supported by all major parties in Quebec.

This cannot be stressed enough. I understand, us being mostly anglophone around these parts, but the reason these laws exist have their history and their purpose, and making the decision, even as an outsider, to vote for someone or not in this poll based solely on "anglophone bigotry" is shallower than shallow.

PQ are interested in silly petty games with the federal government to boost support for sovereignty and to play the victim a lot. They're also a (reasonably) progressive party that doesn't want to shaft all of the students with absurd tuition raises (PLQ) or starve the public sector, including Hydro-Quebec, for no reason other than ideological ones (CAQ), and are at least the most coherent and consistent of the three main parties (particularly, more than the CAQ).

At the end of the day, the PQ is a Social Democratic party with a Nationalist bent. That's all there really is to it. Sovereignty is almost certainly not going anywhere, and given that all of the other parties support the status-quo when it comes to language, the PQ isn't, effectively, going to be that much more nationalist in policy than the others, aside from a few token anti-Harper fits. Let's all save the cheap shots (such as comparing them to Front National...) and stupid "Pauline Marois is just like Hitler, she hates us anglos, she wants to put us in camps, i'm no jew!" stuff for YouTube comments.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 04, 2012, 04:23:29 PM
Khadir ideally, but I'd vote PQ.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: 後援会 on September 04, 2012, 05:05:04 PM
At the end of the day, the PQ is a Social Democratic party with a Racist bent. That's all there really is to it.

Fixed. Quebec has never been a friendly place for visible minorities and considering Marois's embarrassing double-standard on religious symbols and then further considering she's what passes for a "moderate" in the PQ, it will probably continue to be such a place.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on September 04, 2012, 05:15:00 PM
Yawn. Calling it racist is Not Getting It.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: RogueBeaver on September 04, 2012, 05:47:04 PM
Speaking as an Anglo myself, Marokai's right. A lot of this is internal pressure- and considering that she barely survived a caucus revolt in a party which has overthrown or pressured out 5 of her 6 (except Parizeau) predecessors, internal pressure'has to be taken seriously by any PQ leader who wants to stick around.

Her record in office is that of a technocratic social democrat. In a recent magazine profile she  named her two biggest political accomplishments: educational reform and creation of our public daycare system when she ran those ministries in the last PQ government. Culture was never mentioned except in passing. I'm certain she will pass the language legislation with a majority, less sure about the cultural stuff. To use a Tom Friedman analogy, the Liberals mouth the words while the PQ belts them out. But all 3 parties use the same cultural hymn book in practice, though the Liberals sometimes diverge in theory when in the mood.


On the OP: None of the above. CAQ is too amateurish, Liberals way too corrupt. Charest if forced to choose. Maybe Harvey if I wanted to waste my vote (which is wasted because my riding is overwhelmingly PLQ)


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on September 04, 2012, 05:53:39 PM
I hope the PQ wins, if only to bolster future support for the Bloc and displace a bit of the Orange Crush in 2015.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Vosem on September 04, 2012, 05:57:50 PM
Khadir is still awful (and, Holmes, he's also a separatist on top of that), Marois isn't an option, but having learned more about this election, I'm increasingly rooting for Legault as Premier over Charest. Luc Harvey (CPQ, a minor party), like RB said, would be nice; a more explicitly federalist version of the CAQ which approves of Harper? Sign me up! But, ultimately, it would very much come down to where in Quebec I am; in preferred order of parties that have a chance in at least one seat, CAQ, PLQ, PQ, ON, QS. So I would determine who the favorite(s) are and then vote for whoever on that list has the highest chance of victory. With some exceptions (I'd probably vote for Lawrence Bergman over a CAQ candidate, for instance).

I hope the PQ wins, if only to bolster future support for the Bloc and displace a bit of the Orange Crush in 2015.

That's shallow; provincial government in Canada is (as I understand it) more powerful than US state government, and to me the idea of voting for a candidate, hoping they fail, to try to bring down a different candidate by guilt by association is just not appealing whatsoever. Vote for who you hope wins; in very multi-party Quebec, it should be underlined that you vote for the candidate, not the party; that you vote for a local representative, not a Premier; and that you should take into account who has a chance and who doesn't.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: 後援会 on September 04, 2012, 05:59:18 PM

And this is exactly why Quebec isn't going to be anything but a bastion of Pure Laine racism. At least until it sheds the immature political culture that simultaneously relishes playing the persecution card and entrenching white privilege.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on September 04, 2012, 06:18:53 PM
I hope the PQ wins, if only to bolster future support for the Bloc and displace a bit of the Orange Crush in 2015.

That's shallow; provincial government in Canada is (as I understand it) more powerful than US state government, and to me the idea of voting for a candidate, hoping they fail, to try to bring down a different candidate by guilt by association is just not appealing whatsoever. Vote for who you hope wins; in very multi-party Quebec, it should be underlined that you vote for the candidate, not the party; that you vote for a local representative, not a Premier; and that you should take into account who has a chance and who doesn't.

Unfortunately, party discipline is so strict in our provinces these days that you really are not voting for an individual representative anymore: That representative will simply be a number for his leader to count on. I don't like it, but that's now the political reality.

Having no vested interest in the Quebec election aside from its national effects, I am not ashamed to say that I hope the PQ wins. My political ideology is not reflected in Charest's Liberals or the PQ, and, unfortunately, those are the only two parties that have a shot at winning. The fact that we're talking about "outrageous tuition hikes" in Quebec pretty much cements my disconnect from these parties (tuition in Quebec is a pittance compared to tuition in Ontario, even after McGunity's 30% grant). With these reasons in mind, I am, indeed, inclined to hope for a victory for the separatists. The Clarity Act (Mr. Dion was at least good for something) will prevent Quebec sovereignty anyway, so I have no qualms supporting the PQ if it will quell federal NDP support in the region.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on September 04, 2012, 09:06:02 PM
The language laws are supported by all major parties in Quebec.

This cannot be stressed enough. I understand, us being mostly anglophone around these parts, but the reason these laws exist have their history and their purpose, and making the decision, even as an outsider, to vote for someone or not in this poll based solely on "anglophone bigotry" is shallower than shallow.

See the thing is though PQ wants to expand them and basically outlaw all Anglophone colleges. And what would you say if somewhere like Arizona started putting in anti-Spanish laws. That would certainly be racist. I support complete annihilation of the Quebec nationalist parties, like what the Bloc almost got. A shame the PQ didn't follow in the Bloc's footsteps.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: 後援会 on September 04, 2012, 10:02:30 PM
See the thing is though PQ wants to expand them and basically outlaw all Anglophone colleges. And what would you say if somewhere like Arizona started putting in anti-Spanish laws. That would certainly be racist. I support complete annihilation of the Quebec nationalist parties, like what the Bloc almost got. A shame the PQ didn't follow in the Bloc's footsteps.

And let's be quite frank on who the PQ is really targeting with their French-only drive. The vast majority of immigrants to Canada are anglophone to some extent. Largely because English is essentially the international language and from China to India to the Philippines to West Africa, the foreign language of choice is usually English. And even if they're not, learning one foreign language is often such a struggle, that most simply learn English.  It's just a continuation of the typical Quebecoise Pure Laine repudiation of immigration, at least those involving people who look different from them, a policy and social mindset that puts them way out of line with the rest of tolerant, multicultural Canada. It's why the vast majority of immigrants who have the misfortune of blundering into Quebec but have the fortune of being economically capable of moving, quickly leave for greener pastures.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on September 04, 2012, 10:22:57 PM
Yeah the only places I can see it being desirable to migrate to Quebec from are Francophone Africa and Haiti.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: You kip if you want to... on September 05, 2012, 05:15:43 PM
See the thing is though PQ wants to expand them and basically outlaw all Anglophone colleges. And what would you say if somewhere like Arizona started putting in anti-Spanish laws. That would certainly be racist. I support complete annihilation of the Quebec nationalist parties, like what the Bloc almost got. A shame the PQ didn't follow in the Bloc's footsteps.

And let's be quite frank on who the PQ is really targeting with their French-only drive. The vast majority of immigrants to Canada are anglophone to some extent. Largely because English is essentially the international language and from China to India to the Philippines to West Africa, the foreign language of choice is usually English. And even if they're not, learning one foreign language is often such a struggle, that most simply learn English.  It's just a continuation of the typical Quebecoise Pure Laine repudiation of immigration, at least those involving people who look different from them, a policy and social mindset that puts them way out of line with the rest of tolerant, multicultural Canada. It's why the vast majority of immigrants who have the misfortune of blundering into Quebec but have the fortune of being economically capable of moving, quickly leave for greener pastures.

Yes, this exactly!

The Parti Quebecois are exactly the type of fiscal/populist-left that I shudder at. They just shamelessly barrel scrape and appeal to the worst instincts, fears and bigotries of many of the people that they say they represent.

Up in Scotland, Alex Salmond's always doing it and it's just disgusting. "The Left", to me, shouldn't be about divide and rule and judging by Pauline Marois' rhetoric, she thrives on it.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 05, 2012, 06:01:17 PM
Haha, no, not at all. It's more that she has to use that kind of language to keep the nuttier sections of the PQ membership from heading into open revolt.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 05, 2012, 06:05:26 PM
Haha, no, not at all. It's more that she has to use that kind of language to keep the nuttier sections of the PQ membership from heading into open revolt.

Yes, but it's still sad that the only competitive left-wing party in Québec has so many nutjobs in it.


Title: Re: Québec: Preferred Premier/Prime Minister
Post by: Hash on September 05, 2012, 07:03:39 PM
This thread is quite terrible, but whatever.

My answer is the same as before, I wouldn't trust any of the leaders (except perhaps David, but while she's great, she has no political experience and a QS government, which will never happen but whatevsky, would be quite a trainwreck) with student government, much less the province of Quebec.

I stand ready to be convinced that Marois' mindless populism and ethno-nationalism was all for show and that she'll govern as a moderately competent and fairly non-corrupt boring technocrat. It's still a very good thing that Quebec is rid of Jean Charest, who besides being totally incompetent and having accomplished nothing good in 9 years, was the most corrupt Premier since Duplessis. Still slightly discouraging for humanity that he *almost* won reelection. As for Legault, it's really easy to fall into his lies and populism, but even besides the fact that his team had like zero talent (a morbidly obese fraud doctor and some slightly shady Mr. law n' order don't count), his platform was retarded and if he had been elected it would have been a disaster for Quebec.

Khadir/David are intelligent and fairly reasonable (afaik) politicians, but they're only really cute for protest/hip purposes. It's great that both are in the Assembly as they will give a voice to many issues and problems which are ignored, but I certainly don't think any of them would actually be good PMs.