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Title: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: dead0man on September 19, 2012, 06:13:07 AM link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9552612/France-steps-up-security-at-embassies-as-magazine-publishes-Prophet-Mohammed-cartoons.html)
Quote <snip> The cover of Charlie Hebdo shows a Muslim in a wheelchair being pushed by an Orthodox Jew under the title "Intouchables 2", referring to an award-winning French film about a poor black man who helps an aristocratic quadriplegic. Another cartoon on the back page of the weekly magazine shows the prophet re-enacting a scene from a Brigitte Bardot movie. <snip> "The freedom of the press, is that a provocation?" he said. "I'm not asking strict Muslims to read Charlie Hebdo, just like I wouldn't go to a mosque to listen to speeches that go against everything I believe." Dalil Boubakeur, the senior cleric at Paris's biggest mosque, appealed for France's four million Muslims to remain calm. "It is with astonishment, sadness and concern that I have learned that this publication is risking increasing the current outrage across the Muslim world," he said. "I would appeal to them not to pour oil on the fire." French Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault said anyone offended by cartoons could take the matter to the courts after expressing his "disapproval of all excesses". But he emphasised France's tradition of free speech. "We are in a country where freedom of expression is guaranteed, including the freedom to caricature," he said on RTL radio. "If people really feel offended in their beliefs and think there has been an infringement of the law – and we are in a state where laws must be totally respected – they can go to court," Ayrault said. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 19, 2012, 08:30:50 AM Seriously, these people have had five years to get the hint - don't publish cartoons showing Mohammed! It is not worth the damage it is causing to many innocent people.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Zanas on September 19, 2012, 09:43:55 AM They got the hint. The day you step back, fundamentalists win, and you can never take that step forward again. If anything, we should publish funny drawings of Muhammad in every newspaper everyday. Then people would start to understand how their prophet isn't any more sacred than any other and we have the right to make fun of him as we want.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: dead0man on September 19, 2012, 09:44:59 AM They got the hint. The day you step back, fundamentalists win, and you can never take that step forward again. If anything, we should publish funny drawings of Muhammad in every newspaper everyday. Then people would start to understand how their prophet isn't any more sacred than any other and we have the right to make fun of him as we want. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 19, 2012, 09:49:35 AM They got the hint. The day you step back, fundamentalists win, and you can never take that step forward again. If anything, we should publish funny drawings of Muhammad in every newspaper everyday. Then people would start to understand how their prophet isn't any more sacred than any other and we have the right to make fun of him as we want. They should never have stepped over that line in the first place. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Zanas on September 19, 2012, 09:55:18 AM They should never have stepped over that line in the first place. It's been since 1905 religions didn't draw the lines here. We're not letting them back. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Zioneer on September 19, 2012, 10:10:30 AM Seriously, these people have had five years to get the hint - don't publish cartoons showing Mohammed! It is not worth the damage it is causing to many innocent people. Yeah, I mean, they have the right to publish it, it's more of the ethics (or lack thereof) of knowingly and deliberating inflaming religious anger. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 19, 2012, 10:21:27 AM Seriously, these people have had five years to get the hint - don't publish cartoons showing Mohammed! It is not worth the damage it is causing to many innocent people. Yeah, I mean, they have the right to publish it, it's more of the ethics (or lack thereof) of knowingly and deliberating inflaming religious anger. Precisely. People should have learnt that this. If you want to make of Islam, do it without drawing Mohammed - it just causes problems, because it's that offensive. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Franzl on September 19, 2012, 10:29:30 AM Look: It's a dumb and unnecessary thing to do, but that doesn't mean it should be forbidden. You're wanting to take civil and criminal action against people that are excercizing their rights in Western democracies.
And that's not something I'd ever be willing to compromise on, least of all to please an angry mob in the streets in Libya that has a lot of "growing up" to do, so to speak. The people that are murdered by these angry mobs are a good reason to refrain from publishing things you expect would have that effect, but the responsibility ultimately lies in the people doing the killing, not the people peacefully using their freedom of the press. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 19, 2012, 11:38:21 AM Look: It's a dumb and unnecessary thing to do, but that doesn't mean it should be forbidden. You're wanting to take civil and criminal action against people that are excercizing their rights in Western democracies. And that's not something I'd ever be willing to compromise on, least of all to please an angry mob in the streets in Libya that has a lot of "growing up" to do, so to speak. The people that are murdered by these angry mobs are a good reason to refrain from publishing things you expect would have that effect, but the responsibility ultimately lies in the people doing the killing, not the people peacefully using their freedom of the press. Those people using their freedom of the press should know that what they publish has consequences. If those consequences led to the deaths of innocent people, then they have some responsibility on the moral level at least. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 19, 2012, 06:04:26 PM Charlie Hebdo are massive FFs, as always.
Look: It's a dumb and unnecessary thing to do, but that doesn't mean it should be forbidden. You're wanting to take civil and criminal action against people that are excercizing their rights in Western democracies. And that's not something I'd ever be willing to compromise on, least of all to please an angry mob in the streets in Libya that has a lot of "growing up" to do, so to speak. The people that are murdered by these angry mobs are a good reason to refrain from publishing things you expect would have that effect, but the responsibility ultimately lies in the people doing the killing, not the people peacefully using their freedom of the press. Those people using their freedom of the press should know that what they publish has consequences. If those consequences led to the deaths of innocent people, then they have some responsibility on the moral level at least. If we start bending to this kind of logic, then free press becomes an empty phrase. Blasphemy is a right, a right which ought to be proclaimed, but also enforced in reality. If admit that you can't publish certain things because you know that some nutjob somewhere in the world might be offended by them, then you're basically surrendering this right. And this is unacceptable. And as a side note, I am truly disturbed by Hollande and the government's lack of support (actually, an almost veiled condemnation) of the magazine. I guess their attitude is based on diplomatic concerns, but it's still sad. Freedom of the press isn't negotiable. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: RogueBeaver on September 19, 2012, 06:09:16 PM I'm with Antonio 100% here.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 19, 2012, 06:11:00 PM Having a right to do something is not the same thing as saying that it is always right to do something.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Associate Justice PiT on September 19, 2012, 06:18:19 PM Look: It's a dumb and unnecessary thing to do, but that doesn't mean it should be forbidden. You're wanting to take civil and criminal action against people that are excercizing their rights in Western democracies. And that's not something I'd ever be willing to compromise on, least of all to please an angry mob in the streets in Libya that has a lot of "growing up" to do, so to speak. The people that are murdered by these angry mobs are a good reason to refrain from publishing things you expect would have that effect, but the responsibility ultimately lies in the people doing the killing, not the people peacefully using their freedom of the press. Those people using their freedom of the press should know that what they publish has consequences. If those consequences led to the deaths of innocent people, then they have some responsibility on the moral level at least. The responsibility is that of those who would kill over triviality. These people have to realize that it is the 21st century and their attempts to quash dissent must fail. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 19, 2012, 06:20:36 PM These people have to realize that it is the 21st century Really now Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Franzl on September 19, 2012, 06:25:03 PM Having a right to do something is not the same thing as saying that it is always right to do something. True of course. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 19, 2012, 06:27:05 PM Having a right to do something is not the same thing as saying that it is always right to do something. The reason why it is right to publish blasphemous caricatures right now, is because it reaffirms a principle which, otherwise, would be severely eroded. Blasphemy is always to be accepted, regardless of how some people in the world could possibly react to it. The fact that it comes from a markedly progressive magazine which uses to denounce anti-muslim bigotry in Europe as forcefully as it denounces Islamic fundamentalism, makes it even more of a principled standing. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 20, 2012, 10:06:38 AM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 20, 2012, 05:31:56 PM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on September 20, 2012, 07:25:48 PM Why do people feel the need to pull this sh**t?
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Mister Twister on September 20, 2012, 11:20:28 PM They got the hint. The day you step back, fundamentalists win, and you can never take that step forward again. If anything, we should publish funny drawings of Muhammad in every newspaper everyday. Then people would start to understand how their prophet isn't any more sacred than any other and we have the right to make fun of him as we want. I agree with this completely. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 21, 2012, 04:28:20 AM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. They can make cartoons about Islam - just don't depict the Prophet. It's not hard. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Franzl on September 21, 2012, 05:16:32 AM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. They can make cartoons about Islam - just don't depict the Prophet. It's not hard. You really don't get it... Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 21, 2012, 07:40:03 AM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. They can make cartoons about Islam - just don't depict the Prophet. It's not hard. You really don't get it... Yes, I do. Charlie Hedbo decided that just because it could this, it should. In the process, it is inflaming many of the people we need to defeat al-Qaeda. I'm all in favour of freedom of speech, but it must be used responsibly. Title: The Atheist2006 Institute of Mohammed Cartoons Post by: Mr. Morden on September 21, 2012, 09:02:12 AM Gotta agree with the Antonio/Franzl axis on this one. Just keep making Mohammed cartoons until the protestors get tired of protesting. Next week, they'll be onto protesting over something else anyway.
In any case, looks like France is actually wimping out by banning protests over the cartoon(!): http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-protests-france-ban-idUSBRE88K0G820120921 Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on September 21, 2012, 09:06:57 AM What is desirable might be another thing but I don't think we should embark on a policy whose goal is essentially to wind up extremists...
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 21, 2012, 10:08:46 AM What is desirable might be another thing but I don't think we should embark on a policy whose goal is essentially to wind up extremists... Title: Re: The Atheist2006 Institute of Mohammed Cartoons Post by: Insula Dei on September 21, 2012, 04:38:21 PM Gotta agree with the Antonio/Franzl axis on this one. Just keep making Mohammed cartoons until the protestors get tired of protesting. Next week, they'll be onto protesting over something else anyway. You're right (without realizing why, perhaps), cartoons like these are only accidental to the protests they incite. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 02:52:29 PM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. They can make cartoons about Islam - just don't depict the Prophet. It's not hard. OK, let me rephrase. If they stopped making cartoons about the Prophet because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on September 22, 2012, 03:48:29 PM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. They can make cartoons about Islam - just don't depict the Prophet. It's not hard. OK, let me rephrase. If they stopped making cartoons about the Prophet because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. It would also be a highly ethical and responsible decision to make, but, you know, whatever. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 03:51:57 PM Charlie Hebdo can denounce Islamic extremism in a different manner without being so offensive. There is a difference between not kowtowing and deliberate provocation. They denounce Islamic extremism by doing what they have always done: making goddamn satirical cartoons. That's their business, making cartoons. Whether they mock Islam, Catholicism, the French government or something else. If they stopped making cartoons about Islam-related stuff because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. They can make cartoons about Islam - just don't depict the Prophet. It's not hard. OK, let me rephrase. If they stopped making cartoons about the Prophet because some dickheads somewhere in the world could get offended, then it would be plain old censorship. Period. It would also be a highly ethical and responsible decision to make, but, you know, whatever. Letting some fanatic nutjobs decide what the newspaper of a free country can draw and what they can't is ethical and responsible to you? Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Insula Dei on September 22, 2012, 04:12:52 PM Taking the decision not to publish a cartoon which only is meant to insult and cause mayhem may be considered adult behaviour, yeah.
At the very least it betrays some concern for the quality of the stuff you're publishing. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 04:47:50 PM Taking the decision not to publish a cartoon which only is meant to insult and cause mayhem may be considered adult behaviour, yeah. At the very least it betrays some concern for the quality of the stuff you're publishing. Oh dear lord, once again? This is a f**king satirical magazine. Satirical magazines publish, you know, satirical cartoons. That's what they are supposed to do. And while satirical cartoons are not necessarily meant to insult, some people in the world will always take them as insulting. People publish them nonetheless. So, how in the world can you call people out for publishing satirical cartoons about a specific thing and claim with a straight face that you're not advocating for censorship? The options are two: either you're saying that blasphemy is generally OK, except toward Islam. So, that means Islam is somehow particular and deserves a special treatment. Sounds like a very dangerous idea, which is also quite condescending toward Muslims. Or you are saying that blasphemy is bad in general and should never be practiced. Hurray to the Inquisition! I like how this forum seems more outraged about people exerting their freedom of expression (and doing their goddamn job in the process) than about the mass of human trash who actually think it's OK to attack buildings and kill people because they didn't like a movie or a drawing. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Insula Dei on September 22, 2012, 04:50:44 PM At the very least the people of Charlie Hebdo aren't doing a very good job if they think that cartoon was funny.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 04:54:17 PM At the very least the people of Charlie Hebdo aren't doing a very good job if they think that cartoon was funny. ...and that's completely irrelevant to the point. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Insula Dei on September 22, 2012, 05:03:31 PM At the very least the people of Charlie Hebdo aren't doing a very good job if they think that cartoon was funny. ...and that's completely irrelevant to the point. Oh it is, because it makes the difference between an empty, vapid provocation and between legitimate satire. Charlie Hebdo's job is not to jump up and down some imaginary barricades in the defense of Free Speech, but to bring actual satire. Nobody's disputing that the magazine has a right to print whatever filth it wants (and let's be honest here: there are very few other accurate descriptions of a deliberately insulting yet simultaneously meaningless and inane cartoon like this), the question is whether our little knights of the liberal table are right to do so. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 05:15:30 PM First of all, no, there is absolutely no deliberate intent to insult anyone. Someone who feels insulted by a religious satire needs to grow up and understand that he can't force people to give a sh*t about what his beliefs are. If there were a religion whose doctrine said it's blasphemous to depict trees, would any drawing of a tree be deemed "deliberately insulting? Acknowledging that some people can legitimately feel insulted is the first step toward obscurantism.
I can actually say, from having a look at those caricatures, that their actual message was to poke fun at the movie, by pointing out how silly and grotesque it was. The caricatures are still dull and unfunny but that's, again, besides the point. It's not the first time Charlie Hebdo makes bad caricatures and when their bad caricatures are about things other than Islam nobody gives a sh*t about them. BTW, they also happen to have good cartoons, some of which are about Islam and some of which are about something else. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese on September 22, 2012, 06:11:50 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P
(And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) If we're gonna dictate what news papers are allowed to publish, and what movies are allowed to depict based on wether someone might be offended by it we're on the wrong path. Should we not allow South Park because it sataries mormonism? Or is it only when the offended party gets violent that we should allow them dictate our actions? What sort of logic is that? Satire and Parody is an important Democratic tool and should be allowed on all levels of society, politics as well as religion, even if the satire happens to be stupid and unnecessary. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 07:35:19 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. I guess that might be part of my old-style French "laïcard" tendency. ;) Incidentally, the quote in your sig is also a rare and interesting instance of me completely disagreeing with Al. ;) Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on September 22, 2012, 09:54:50 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. It's rather easy if you're the type of leftist who has a serious problem with the conventional idea of 'progress'. I don't think anybody's saying that the French government should take action against these Charlie Hebdo people. We're just saying that the Charlie Hebdo people are irresponsible morons. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 10:15:57 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. It's rather easy if you're the type of leftist who has a serious problem with the conventional idea of 'progress'. I don't think anybody's saying that the French government should take action against these Charlie Hebdo people. We're just saying that the Charlie Hebdo people are irresponsible morons. You can not believe in progress and still think that the right to blasphemy is a fundamental principle which ought to be protected, not only in legislation but also in facts. (in fact, I personally believe it's impossible to be really left-wing without believing in some kind of Progress, but whatever) Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Vosem on September 22, 2012, 10:18:46 PM I agree Antonio on this one :D
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on September 22, 2012, 11:07:13 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. It's rather easy if you're the type of leftist who has a serious problem with the conventional idea of 'progress'. I don't think anybody's saying that the French government should take action against these Charlie Hebdo people. We're just saying that the Charlie Hebdo people are irresponsible morons. You can not believe in progress and still think that the right to blasphemy is a fundamental principle which ought to be protected, not only in legislation but also in facts. What? Whyever not? Even if we're constructing the most ridiculous strawmen possible, transition from a non-theocratic government to a theocratic one is a form of 'progress', just not towards something one might necessarily want. Quote (in fact, I personally believe it's impossible to be really left-wing without believing in some kind of Progress, but whatever) I don't believe in 'progress', and I'm certainly not of the right. I believe in symptom relief. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 11:12:06 PM The same discussion is ongoing with Al on the Democratic "factions" thread, which is probably more appropriate than this one. I think we can have an interesting debate on this issue.
Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on September 22, 2012, 11:12:38 PM The same discussion is ongoing with Al on the Democratic "factions" thread, which is probably more appropriate than this one. I think we can have an interesting debate on this issue. I'd like to. Let's move there. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 11:15:17 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. It's rather easy if you're the type of leftist who has a serious problem with the conventional idea of 'progress'. I don't think anybody's saying that the French government should take action against these Charlie Hebdo people. We're just saying that the Charlie Hebdo people are irresponsible morons. You can not believe in progress and still think that the right to blasphemy is a fundamental principle which ought to be protected, not only in legislation but also in facts. What? Whyever not? Even if we're constructing the most ridiculous strawmen possible, transition from a non-theocratic government to a theocratic one is a form of 'progress', just not towards something one might necessarily want. Well, I obviously give a normative content to the notion of progress, otherwise it's indeed utterly meaningless. The point is that theocracy is not the kind of government which a leftist would normally support... Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on September 22, 2012, 11:25:45 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. It's rather easy if you're the type of leftist who has a serious problem with the conventional idea of 'progress'. I don't think anybody's saying that the French government should take action against these Charlie Hebdo people. We're just saying that the Charlie Hebdo people are irresponsible morons. You can not believe in progress and still think that the right to blasphemy is a fundamental principle which ought to be protected, not only in legislation but also in facts. What? Whyever not? Even if we're constructing the most ridiculous strawmen possible, transition from a non-theocratic government to a theocratic one is a form of 'progress', just not towards something one might necessarily want. Well, I obviously give a normative content to the notion of progress, otherwise it's indeed utterly meaningless. The point is that theocracy is not the kind of government which a leftist would normally support... Unless the leftist were Michel Foucault or somebody like that, you're probably right. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on September 22, 2012, 11:58:19 PM I always find it intresting when I agree with Antonio 100% on an issue. :P (And even more intresting when Antonio and Belgian Socialist disagrees on something) I also find it bewildering to see how often some of my fellow left-wingers fall for such a reactionary rhetoric. I don't want to pull a Not True Scotsman fallacy, but I find it really hard to reconcile bending to the anger of a few bigots with the basic values that make the core of progressive though. It's rather easy if you're the type of leftist who has a serious problem with the conventional idea of 'progress'. I don't think anybody's saying that the French government should take action against these Charlie Hebdo people. We're just saying that the Charlie Hebdo people are irresponsible morons. You can not believe in progress and still think that the right to blasphemy is a fundamental principle which ought to be protected, not only in legislation but also in facts. What? Whyever not? Even if we're constructing the most ridiculous strawmen possible, transition from a non-theocratic government to a theocratic one is a form of 'progress', just not towards something one might necessarily want. Well, I obviously give a normative content to the notion of progress, otherwise it's indeed utterly meaningless. The point is that theocracy is not the kind of government which a leftist would normally support... Unless the leftist were Michel Foucault or somebody like that, you're probably right. Don't get me started on Foucault... :P Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Silent Hunter on September 23, 2012, 03:42:17 AM even if the satire happens to be stupid and unnecessary. That's the thing - it was stupid and it was unnecessary. I'm all in favour of satire (I subscribe to Private Eye), but not when it makes things worse. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Zanas on October 04, 2012, 05:34:04 PM I came here to see how this thread had gone, and I hereby officially state that :
I'm in love with Antonio V. He defended each and every point I would've, probably better than I would've, and never let go. Now I'm curious. One of these days I'll draw a stick-man and write Muhammad under him, even in Arabic as I happen to know how to write in it, and publish it on this forum. Will it be censored ? And then I'll keep publishing it every day. I could even include a Muhammad caricature in my sig. We should get everybody used to it. It's not because the Muslim world is in their 14th century that they should act like we did in ours... Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 04, 2012, 08:34:27 PM I came here to see how this thread had gone, and I hereby officially state that : I'm in love with Antonio V. He defended each and every point I would've, probably better than I would've, and never let go. Wow, that's flattering. Thank you. :) I guess that I invest more time and energy in my arguments when this topic comes up because I find it particularly frustrating to see so many left-wingers take a stance so diametrically opposed to all left-wing values. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on October 04, 2012, 08:46:25 PM I came here to see how this thread had gone, and I hereby officially state that : I'm in love with Antonio V. He defended each and every point I would've, probably better than I would've, and never let go. Now I'm curious. One of these days I'll draw a stick-man and write Muhammad under him, even in Arabic as I happen to know how to write in it, and publish it on this forum. Will it be censored ? And then I'll keep publishing it every day. I could even include a Muhammad caricature in my sig. We should get everybody used to it. It's not because the Muslim world is in their 14th century that they should act like we did in ours... Fifteenth century Anno Hegirae. Title: Re: France steps up security at embassies as magazine publishes Prophet Mo cartoons Post by: Zanas on October 05, 2012, 09:40:40 AM I came here to see how this thread had gone, and I hereby officially state that : I'm in love with Antonio V. He defended each and every point I would've, probably better than I would've, and never let go. Now I'm curious. One of these days I'll draw a stick-man and write Muhammad under him, even in Arabic as I happen to know how to write in it, and publish it on this forum. Will it be censored ? And then I'll keep publishing it every day. I could even include a Muhammad caricature in my sig. We should get everybody used to it. It's not because the Muslim world is in their 14th century that they should act like we did in ours... Fifteenth century Anno Hegirae. |