Talk Elections

Atlas Fantasy Elections => Atlas Fantasy Government => Topic started by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 04, 2012, 11:53:20 PM



Title: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 04, 2012, 11:53:20 PM
Quote
      A BILL

      To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

      Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

      SECTION 1. TITLE

      This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

      SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

      Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to the United States will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

      • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
      • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
      • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
      • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
      • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

      SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

      1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

      • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
      • Is likely to become a public charge
      • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
      • Has committed marriage fraud
      • Has abused a student visa
      • Has engaged in persecution, or;
      • Poses a public health risk

      2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

      SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

      $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.[/list][/list]

      Sponsor: Scott Ben


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 04, 2012, 11:55:57 PM
      This is Atlasia, do you really think that the progressive paradise hasn't already "solved" this problem, Scott? :P


      MasterJedi once told me that Ebowed gave amnesty to all the illegals, though I don't recall when or what bill he mentioned.


      Oh yea, you got 24 hours to advocate for this.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 05, 2012, 12:33:57 AM
      Was amnesty afforded to illegal immigrants residing in Atlasia at the time, or amnesty to all illegal immigrants permanently?  Personally, as someone who feels that immigration laws need to be enforced, I oppose amnesty if it's unconditional, but I support a path to citizenship for those who demonstrate appropriate behavior.  That's why the bill I introduced is not intended to create an 'amnesty program' because it requires a lengthy and rigorous process to be eligible for the benefits.  However, if this is already a settled issue, I suppose I should withdraw it.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 05, 2012, 12:42:12 AM
      Was amnesty afforded to illegal immigrants residing in Atlasia at the time, or amnesty to all illegal immigrants permanently?  Personally, as someone who feels that immigration laws need to be enforced, I oppose amnesty if it's unconditional, but I support a path to citizenship for those who demonstrate appropriate behavior.  That's why the bill I introduced is not intended to create an 'amnesty program' because it requires a lengthy and rigorous process to be eligible for the benefits.  However, if this is already a settled issue, I suppose I should withdraw it.

      No, I wouldn't withdraw it based on a fading memory of second hand comment from three years ago about a bill that occured years before that even. I would suggest diving through the wiki and seeing if anything close to that is on there.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 05, 2012, 10:27:51 PM
      Neither of the two immigration-related bills on the wiki appear to grant blanket amnesty.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 05, 2012, 11:58:30 PM
      Do you have the links, so I can take a look at them. I fear this thing will be even slower on the wiki.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 06, 2012, 12:30:00 AM
      https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
      https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/The_Illegal_Immigration_Act_of_2009

      One of these bills might not be even be in effect for the fact that it appears to amend laws that aren't on the books in Atlasia, presumably because the text was copied from some US law.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Ebowed on October 06, 2012, 01:40:11 AM
      All illegal immigrants arriving before 2007 were given an amnesty - https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Illegal_Immigrant_Act


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 06, 2012, 01:41:51 PM
      Why will this bill cost $25 billion?


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 06, 2012, 01:43:33 PM

      It was more of an estimated cost than anything else.  The real DREAM Act was estimated to actually cut costs in the long run.  However, if all pre-2007 illegal immigrants were given amnesty, I'm no longer sure how this bill could be useful...


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Redalgo on October 06, 2012, 01:43:58 PM
      I propose this amendment in a patriotic display of solidarity with those seeking to become citizens:

      Quote
      A BILL

      To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

      Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

      SECTION 1. TITLE

      This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

      SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

      Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to the United States will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

      • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
      • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
      • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
      • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
      • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

      SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

      1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following: committed one felony or five misdemeanors.

      • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
      • Is likely to become a public charge
      • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
      • Has committed marriage fraud
      • Has abused a student visa
      • Has engaged in persecution, or;
      • Poses a public health risk

      2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

      SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

      $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 06, 2012, 01:47:39 PM
      And, to save Yankee time, I object. :P


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 06, 2012, 01:49:34 PM
      Unfriendly.

      I'm probably going to motion to table unless Yankee or the SoIA think this bill can accomplish something.

      (And just for the record, Hagrid, you wouldn't object unless I considered the amendment friendly. ;))


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 06, 2012, 01:51:00 PM
      Scott, I would say it’s a very useful bill. Blanket amnesty for pre-2007 illegals would have sent the message that people could come over to this country illegally without any consequences whatsoever, so I expect there must be quite a few illegal immigrants in the Southwest by now.

      In all seriousness though, the bill can’t hurt. I’d change the price tag though.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 06, 2012, 01:55:25 PM
      Scott, I would say it’s a very useful bill. Blanket amnesty for pre-2007 illegals would have sent the message that people could come over to this country illegally without any consequences whatsoever, so I expect there must be quite a few illegal immigrants in the Southwest by now.

      In all seriousness though, the bill can’t hurt. I’d change the price tag though.

      From my understanding, the pre-2007 illegals already have amnesty, so this bill wouldn't change that.  The only people this would affect are those who illegally migrated to the United States in the past five years, so I'm not sure if the benefits outweigh the costs.  The price tag will definitely be reduced, but I think the GM should give us an estimate.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 06, 2012, 01:57:06 PM
      No, I understand. I just think you'll find there is a substantial enough number of new illegals to make it worth it. I'd also want to defer to the GM on this though.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Redalgo on October 06, 2012, 01:57:48 PM
      This bill could be a very useful vehicle for allowing those who arrive here while still minors a fair opportunity to spend their adult lives in Atlasia - receiving all the rights and shouldering all the burdens that accompany the status of citizenship. Ideally, one would be a member of this nation not because of blood lines or on which side of an arbitrary political line they were born. Rather, it would be a matter of who pledges to sign on and adhere to the stipulations of our social contract.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 07, 2012, 02:11:32 AM
      I would suggest seeing what the GM says about the costs before moving forward.

      Giving Amnesty to illegals is one of the most insane proposals out there. I understand compassion but it is a cyclical, self-fullfilling prophecy. I understand compassion and I understand idealism, but it is essential to understand the reality of the situation. 1) Every country retains the sovereign rights to control what comes across their borders. 2) Choosing not to do so is just as much an assertive action as choosing to do so. 3) The impact of this decision not is a distortion on the economy. 4) This distortion is manifested in wage depression which hurts the working poor. 5) Nothing in 3 or 4 should be taken to mean that immigration hurts the economy, it helps, but it has to be controlled and regulated. 6) No amount of idealism will change the fact that there is a certain numerical threshold for the number of new immigrants that society can absorb at one time, and crossing that limit will do more to harm your idealistic vision then help it. That number is a mystery but I am not inclined to tempt fate. As much as believe in "country exceptionalism", such is limited to certain things and just like no country is exceptional enough to not have to pay its bills forever, no country can escape these limits in terms of population upheaval. That leads to 7) With just legal immigration you can bring in people within an acceptable range, and not risk that.

      That said, if you put enough standards and qualifications, I can accept making exceptions for the children since they weren't the decision maker at the time. The standards must be tight, they must have to pass whatever schooling they are in and/or serve honorably for the entirety of their military service. Mass cheating of the system is indicative of a disturbing process whereby people who have cheated the system once (though not by their choice), continue to have no other desire but to cheat the system when the opporunity affords them. That shouldn't be rewarded. As for having no standards at all, see what I posted above. I just listened to "Crazy on You" by Heart, I can't think of a better description for what Redalgo's amendment is doing to us. :P

      It may be in the morning before I can process the amendment.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 07, 2012, 02:25:41 AM
      Quote from: Amendment 51:14 by Redalgo
      A BILL

      To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

      Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

      SECTION 1. TITLE

      This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

      SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

      Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to the United States will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

      • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
      • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
      • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
      • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
      • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
      • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

      SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

      1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following: committed one felony or five misdemeanors.

      • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
      • Is likely to become a public charge
      • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
      • Has committed marriage fraud
      • Has abused a student visa
      • Has engaged in persecution, or;
      • Poses a public health risk

      2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

      SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

      $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

      Sponsor Feedback: Hostile
      Status: Senators this amendment is now at vote, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 07, 2012, 02:31:53 AM
      NAY!


      Sorry, Redalgo, but someone has to protect the working people here, both domestic and immigrant actually. :P

      Damn, these are pretty bad times for the Labor party, one of their Senators has gone Tea Party and the other is throwing workers under the bus. :P


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 07, 2012, 10:17:45 AM
      Nay


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Franzl on October 07, 2012, 10:32:02 AM
      Aye


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 07, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
      Nay.

      I will definitely withdraw support and sponsorship for the bill if this amendment passes.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 07, 2012, 12:01:41 PM
      Amendment:
      Quote
      SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

      Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

      I figured this amendment would be necessary to discourage potential abuse of the system.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 07, 2012, 01:16:23 PM
      Nay


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Sbane on October 07, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
      I would suggest seeing what the GM says about the costs before moving forward.

      Giving Amnesty to illegals is one of the most insane proposals out there. I understand compassion but it is a cyclical, self-fullfilling prophecy. I understand compassion and I understand idealism, but it is essential to understand the reality of the situation. 1) Every country retains the sovereign rights to control what comes across their borders. 2) Choosing not to do so is just as much an assertive action as choosing to do so. 3) The impact of this decision not is a distortion on the economy. 4) This distortion is manifested in wage depression which hurts the working poor. 5) Nothing in 3 or 4 should be taken to mean that immigration hurts the economy, it helps, but it has to be controlled and regulated. 6) No amount of idealism will change the fact that there is a certain numerical threshold for the number of new immigrants that society can absorb at one time, and crossing that limit will do more to harm your idealistic vision then help it. That number is a mystery but I am not inclined to tempt fate. As much as believe in "country exceptionalism", such is limited to certain things and just like no country is exceptional enough to not have to pay its bills forever, no country can escape these limits in terms of population upheaval. That leads to 7) With just legal immigration you can bring in people within an acceptable range, and not risk that.

      That said, if you put enough standards and qualifications, I can accept making exceptions for the children since they weren't the decision maker at the time. The standards must be tight, they must have to pass whatever schooling they are in and/or serve honorably for the entirety of their military service. Mass cheating of the system is indicative of a disturbing process whereby people who have cheated the system once (though not by their choice), continue to have no other desire but to cheat the system when the opporunity affords them. That shouldn't be rewarded. As for having no standards at all, see what I posted above. I just listened to "Crazy on You" by Heart, I can't think of a better description for what Redalgo's amendment is doing to us. :P

      It may be in the morning before I can process the amendment.

      Want to pass E-verify? I'd support you, in exchange for amnesty for everyone who came before 2011.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Sbane on October 07, 2012, 07:32:35 PM
      Aye. I support blanket amnesty, so I would go further than this amendment, but with E-verify and perhaps greater border control. Let's make it happen people.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 07, 2012, 07:35:47 PM
      This amendment defeats the purpose of the entire bill.  I urge senators who have not yet voted to oppose this.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 08, 2012, 01:34:53 AM
      I want to know how many illegals are currently in the country, before I make any agreement with you, sbane.  It may be significant enough to be a concern, say 2 to 3 million, but not the 10 to 15 million people that have rendered the "you can't deport 12 million people" as a practicality. The gov't deports 300,000 illegals or so every year in RL, and twice as many "self-deport" because of economic hardships caused by the recession. There is no practical hindrence and thus with the exception of say the kids who didn't have a say and such, I see no reasonable justification for mass amnesty. If you do that, you are basically, sending a message, that Atlasia will never deport anyone nor will it enforce its own laws. I didn't realize "Atlasian exceptionalism" was so big a force among liberals in this game. :P Because clearly you must think so in order to hold so idealistic and completely unrealistic a position.

      I have already answered the question of who I wouldn't deport, how about you answer who you would, sbane? :P

      I will process Scott's reasonable amendment as soon as this vote is done, hopefully with a negative result.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Svensson on October 08, 2012, 04:31:14 AM
      Nay.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Sbane on October 08, 2012, 01:39:58 PM
      I think getting rid of the pull (jobs) will sort things out on their own over time. People already here should be allowed to stay BUT we must prevent future illegals coming over to take jobs.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Sbane on October 08, 2012, 01:42:03 PM
      Also amnesty shouldn't mean automatic citizenship. It should be like a green card with possibility of naturalization after a certain period of time.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 09, 2012, 11:16:54 AM
      Scott, you posted in the GM thread, have you tried PMing him directly?




      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on October 09, 2012, 04:04:07 PM
      There's no point in me giving an estimate as long as we don't know the status of the amendment, right?  Because it would be different.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 09, 2012, 07:25:40 PM
      Edit: Eh... I originally voted Nay, but I'm really not sure. If my vote going to be critical here? Because part of me says to vote Aye, part of me says to vote Nay..


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 10, 2012, 12:40:40 AM
      Define "Originally voted Nay", I don't recall any vote having been cast here by any one name Marokai Blue.

      We have procedures that allow for that it is called, "abstain". We have a man in RL who became President by doing that all the time. :P


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment At Vote)
      Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 10, 2012, 01:44:26 AM
      I voted nay and then edited it out, Yankee. :P

      I suppose I will vote... Nay.


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 10, 2012, 01:57:46 AM
      Vote on amendment 51:14:

      Aye (2): Franzl and sbane
      Nay (6): Ben, Hagrid, Marokai Blue, NC Yankee, NVTowsend and Scott
      Abstain (0):

      Didn't Vote (2): Bacon King and Redalgo

      With six nays, the amendment has failed, no vote change period is in order for amendments.


      Marokai did something usefull for once. :P


      Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
      Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 10, 2012, 08:48:39 AM
      An amendment:
      Quote
          A BILL

          To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

          Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

          SECTION 1. TITLE

          This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

          SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

          Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to Atlasia will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

          • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
          • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
          • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
          • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 in the classes taught in the Departments of English, Mathematics, History, and Science and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
          • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
          • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
          • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

          SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

          1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

          • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
          • Is likely to become a public charge
          • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
          • Has committed marriage fraud
          • Has abused a student visa
          • Has engaged in persecution, or;
          • Poses a public health risk

          2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

          SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

          $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.[/list][/list]


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Franzl on October 10, 2012, 11:45:21 AM
          It's absurd to base a residency permit on school grades at all. I'm not willing to make even further restrictions.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 10, 2012, 02:08:37 PM
          I tend to agree with Franzl, and I won't vote for this bill if it has a residency requirement based in school grades, let alone even more strict restrictions in that category.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 10, 2012, 05:44:00 PM
          There should be a GPA that's high enough so that beneficiaries have the incentive to not only get the education, but do well in getting the education so that they may go to a respectable college and not put themselves (and likely their families) in an endless cycle of poverty that will often result.  I can support a slight reduction in the GPA requirement, but not the removal of it.  Ben's amendment is friendly.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 10, 2012, 06:08:55 PM
          I object.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Franzl on October 10, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
          There should be a GPA that's high enough so that beneficiaries have the incentive to not only get the education, but do well in getting the education so that they may go to a respectable college and not put themselves (and likely their families) in an endless cycle of poverty that will often result.  I can support a slight reduction in the GPA requirement, but not the removal of it.  Ben's amendment is friendly.

          This is an unreasonable and discriminatory requirement. I may still vote for the final bill despite that, but I very strongly disagree.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 10, 2012, 08:02:03 PM
          There should be a GPA that's high enough so that beneficiaries have the incentive to not only get the education, but do well in getting the education so that they may go to a respectable college and not put themselves (and likely their families) in an endless cycle of poverty that will often result.  I can support a slight reduction in the GPA requirement, but not the removal of it.  Ben's amendment is friendly.

          This is an unreasonable and discriminatory requirement. I may still vote for the final bill despite that, but I very strongly disagree.

          There is nothing discriminatory about the requirement at all.  I find that claim highly ironic, given what this bill aims to do.  If the bill doesn't provide a strong incentive for immigrants to perform exceptionally well in high school, it won't serve its purpose and they will be less likely to have successful lives or benefit at all from the system.  This is an issue that should be addressed.  Again, I am willing to lower the GPA requirement or, if possible, measure the achievements using a different method -- I, personally, am a tad pessimistic about the credibility of grades in the first place -- but we need to use what we've got.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 10, 2012, 08:26:37 PM
          It's pretty vague. High schools have core history classes and optional history classes. This language would not account for the fact that one student might take one history class and another might take four. What if one student took a ton of math or science classes, which are often more difficult to get a high mark in?

          It's harder to standardize the specifics. I think we should just keep a generic GPA requirement.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 10, 2012, 08:29:21 PM
          It's pretty vague. High schools have core history classes and optional history classes. This language would not account for the fact that one student might take one history class and another might take four. What if one student took a ton of math or science classes, which are often more difficult to get a high mark in?

          It's harder to standardize the specifics. I think we should just keep a generic GPA requirement.

          Good point, I didn't consider this.  This type of assessment will be difficult since not all high schools are uniform in terms of classes and electives.

          Sorry Ben, but the amendment is unfriendly.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 10, 2012, 10:41:36 PM
          We need core requirements.  We can't have students getting Cs in Math, but As in Art.  There needs to be distinctions.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 10, 2012, 10:49:40 PM
          That would translate into the general GPA. By the same token, we don't want to be punishing students who want to specialize in certain areas. As long as they have their math prerequesites, what's wrong with taking art?

          The problem is, regions will have their own core requirements. Schools will offer different classes. How do we standardize this in a fair way? I don't think we can.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 11, 2012, 12:45:27 AM
          Quote from: Amendent 51:15 by Scott
          SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

          Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

          Sponsor Feedback: Unknown
          Status: Dependent on Feedback


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 11, 2012, 12:46:32 AM
          Friendly, of course. :P


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Franzl on October 11, 2012, 03:33:50 AM
          We need core requirements.  We can't have students getting Cs in Math, but As in Art.  There needs to be distinctions.

          I see no reason to have such a requirement.

          I objectt your amendment, FTR.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 12, 2012, 12:46:34 AM
          Oh yea this is Scott's bill. After a deluge of so much of Marokai's stuff, I tend to automatically assume everything is his. Unfortunate habit. :P


          Quote from: Amendent 51:15 by Scott
          SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

          Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

          Sponsor Feedback: Origination
          Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Franzl on October 12, 2012, 03:16:42 AM
          I object.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 12, 2012, 01:14:55 PM
          May I know the reasons?


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Franzl on October 12, 2012, 01:18:45 PM

          I don't wish to restrict the residency rights to people before a certain date.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on October 12, 2012, 10:47:46 PM
          cost estimate:

          $.5 billion    administration, biometric systems
          $.6 billion    military pay
          $2.5  billion    public services (federal)
          $2.1  billion    public services (regional)
          -$1.1 billion    tax revenues (federal)
          -$.6 billion    tax revenues (regional)

          $ 4 billion net expenses  ($2.5 B federal, $1.5 B regional)


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 12, 2012, 11:57:06 PM
          Quote from: Amendent 51:15 by Scott
          SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

          Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the United States Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

          Sponsor Feedback: Origination
          Status: Objection entered by Senator Franzl, this amendment is now at vote so please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


          I'll check back at Christmas, since thati s likely how long it will take you lazy bums to vote on this.


          Damn my finger still hurts!


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 13, 2012, 12:04:00 AM
          Aye.  This is a crucial part of the legislation that I feel must be included in order for it to be practical.

          Thanks, Shua, though I'm not sure if the estimate would change if this amendment were to pass.  We also need to determine if costs would actually be reduced, if not now, but in the long run, as the real DREAM Act was estimated to do.  Do you think this bill is capable of doing that or can be changed in a way so that it would do that?


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 13, 2012, 12:22:38 AM
          AYE!


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 13, 2012, 12:27:00 AM
          Aye


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Franzl on October 13, 2012, 03:36:49 AM
          NAY


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Sbane on October 13, 2012, 07:11:10 AM
          Nay


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 14, 2012, 04:34:15 PM
          Aye


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 15, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
          This again is so difficult for me, as my own personal immigration politics are deeply conflicted. It is only fair and humane to allow those already here to work toward permanent residency, but I am uncomfortable with the idea that that sort of system will extend in perpetuity. We need a very serious and radical undertaking in fixing out immigration system more broadly, but until then, I suppose we should allow this system to be in place for all.

          I'll vote Nay on the amendment. But don't take that as a statement of a sort of laissez-faire immigration politics.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 15, 2012, 06:06:50 PM
          If the amendment doesn't pass, then essentially this bill will create a de facto open border policy and therefore we would be demonstrating a lack of interest in enforcing our laws rather than in giving people another chance.  The system will already be in place 'for all' in the sense that it will be there for all undocumented immigrants currently living in Atlasia.  I understand if there is a need to simplify the process for those who aspire to migrate here, and would support changes to the bill that would do this, but we cannot simply create an open border policy by not putting any kind of restrictions on this.  Perhaps those who don't like this amendment can offer an alternative or a compromise on this?  I should mention that originally I was going to include provisions for enhanced border security, but I decided against it because I doubted that it would pass given the nature of the Senate.  The fact that we can't agree on a modest proposal like this is very disappointing.

          I urge the senators that have already voted nay to reconsider, and I hope those that have not yet voted are in the affirmative on this.  I will work for the defeat of this bill if it ends up detracting from its principles the way those in the far-left apparently want it to do.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 15, 2012, 08:57:01 PM
          Am I on the far left or am I a tea partier! Which is it! >:(


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 16, 2012, 01:14:55 PM
          Some Libertarians are pretty weak on the border, perhaps you a Ron Paul Tea Partier. :P


          Giving a guarrateed, indefinate free pass to "future" violators of a law you plan to continue, is perhaps the most insane idea I have ever heard of. I too support reforming and simplifying the legal immigration system, but sorry Marokai, you are in fact creating not a laissez faire immigration policy, but you are openly admitting that we have no immigration policy, that the legalities and circumstances of person's entry in the country are irrelevant. To someone as a protectionist as you yourself have shown over the years (Remember the buy America provisions? Atleast Franzl was on the side of sanity on that issue, back then, if memory serves me. :P),  such should not even be a consideration. Now, on the other hand, one can be a free trader (espeically since that means different things to different people) and still support border security and regulating (like safety inspections, making sure there are no nukes in the containers, etc etc) the flow of goods in such a trade system (if it means a economic policy decision rather than a philosophical view of gov't. Hence why libertarians see a contradiction). For practical reasons though protectionism and complete open borders are impossible, because you are conceding the ability to enforce the trade policy when you surrender your immigration policy.

          As for Scott said about border security not being able to pass the Senate, so he didn't include it. WTF!!! Has the desire on the part of Democrats in RL to pander to Hispanics and lock the GOP out of power driven the all of them to completely surrender any sense of reality regarding borders for political gain? Have you convinced yourself in a conspiratorial fashion, akin to birtherism and trutherism, that it is "just another racist code word"? It is a constitutional obligation to sustain sovereign control of the country's borders, otherwise you can't protect the people.  Control does mean a wall, it is a door that we can than determine whne to close an open it.  

          I would continue, but I am tired.

          THe vote turnout here sucks! :P


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 16, 2012, 01:54:53 PM
          FTR, it's not really that I was "pandering" to anyone per se, but I just proposed what we have now for practical reasons since, as we can all plainly see, immigration policies aren't particularly easy to pass in this body if they have the slightest regulations or conditions attached, kind of like abortion. ;) :P


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Franzl on October 16, 2012, 02:20:11 PM
          To explain myself:

          I have no intention of changing my vote here. Just as I agree with birthright citizenship as a principle, for the same reason, I don't believe in punishing people who came to Atlasia as minors with their parents and are not responsible for the illegal behavior. (Now that I think about it, that does mean I would be willing to support an addition stating that they must come to Atlasia with parents or legal guardians to qualify, otherwise any minor could go across the border himself and claim residency status.)



          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 17, 2012, 01:22:08 AM
          FTR, it's not really that I was "pandering" to anyone per se, but I just proposed what we have now for practical reasons since, as we can all plainly see, immigration policies aren't particularly easy to pass in this body if they have the slightest regulations or conditions attached, kind of like abortion. ;) :P

          I wasn't insinuating anything about you personally. I knew what you were saying and that is what I was talking about with the pandering comment. And yes, it is just the like the abortion bill. RL politics is crossing in and making too many of this Senate too uncomfortable to engage and do their jobs. You were responding to that obvious situation when making that decision not to include border security. My tirade was against that situation existing in the first place.

          To explain myself:

          I have no intention of changing my vote here. Just as I agree with birthright citizenship as a principle, for the same reason, I don't believe in punishing people who came to Atlasia as minors with their parents and are not responsible for the illegal behavior. (Now that I think about it, that does mean I would be willing to support an addition stating that they must come to Atlasia with parents or legal guardians to qualify, otherwise any minor could go across the border himself and claim residency status.)

          We don't have a disagreement regarding the children born here to illegal aliens or even on giving amnesty to the children who crossed with their parents. The key though there is the past tense, you have to time limit to certain period otherwise you create a permenent incentive for parents to continue come because their children can get legal status once they cross.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 17, 2012, 01:25:50 AM
          This vote ends tomorrow night. As usual, the turnout is a terrible. ::)


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Sbane on October 17, 2012, 10:36:27 PM
          I urge the senators that have already voted nay to reconsider, and I hope those that have not yet voted are in the affirmative on this.  I will work for the defeat of this bill if it ends up detracting from its principles the way those in the far-left apparently want it to do.

          What I would like is amnesty for all non-criminal illegal aliens in exchange for E-Verify. Hell, throw in more border control as well. I don't see anything wrong with that. And Yankee, I doubt you will see a lot of opposition to that in RL either. It's laws that empower racists, such as AZ SB 1070, that are troubling.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 18, 2012, 12:58:17 AM
          Just so we don't forget, Ben's amendment is next.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 18, 2012, 01:12:13 AM
          I urge the senators that have already voted nay to reconsider, and I hope those that have not yet voted are in the affirmative on this.  I will work for the defeat of this bill if it ends up detracting from its principles the way those in the far-left apparently want it to do.

          What I would like is amnesty for all non-criminal illegal aliens in exchange for E-Verify. Hell, throw in more border control as well. I don't see anything wrong with that. And Yankee, I doubt you will see a lot of opposition to that in RL either. It's laws that empower racists, such as AZ SB 1070, that are troubling.


          Ever heard of the Chamber of Commerce? :P Big Agra doesn't like it either.

          AZ SB 1070 was a serious tactical mistake motivated by momentary fear and anger over the killing of that rancher in 2010, and the political calculations of an almost certain primary loser in Governor Jan Brewer. If they had stuck with just e-verify and beefed up police and other enforcement in the Southern part of the state, they would have been far better off. Arizona hispanics haven't been very sympathetic to illegals either, with 47% of them having voted for something similar to Prop 187 in 2004, banning benefits and such. Turning them against the immigration enforcement crowd was a big mistake.

          I don't think the Senate is capable of handling the indepth detail of a broad ranging comprehensive immigration bill with an election coming that will drowned activity even further (I got a scheme to respond to this by the way, but people would have to cooperate with me). And I haven't changed my opinion regarding mass direct amnesty, though an exit amnesty to provide an alternative to "self-deportation" would be a different story. But we have had this discussion before on a different board and somehow I doubt you have changed your mind either, so lets not get into that again. :P

          Lets keep this effort simple. Provide amnesty for the children brought in by their parents, when they weren't capable of making a choice, provided they contribute to society by successfully graduating from college, or by serving honorably in the military. Lets make sure there are tough standards to ensure that no one defrauds this or that it becomes a magnet for furtuer illegal immigration into the country. Those are my standards for supporting a Dream Act.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 20, 2012, 12:03:49 AM
          Vote on Amendment 51:15:

          Aye (4): Ben, Hagrid, NC Yankee, and Scott
          Nay (3): Franzl, Marokai Blue and sbane
          Abstain (0):

          Didn't Vote (3): BK, NVTowsend and Redalgo.

          With time having expired (with 24 hours and some change to spare :P), the amendment has passed (barely). Ben's shall commence in the morning, so people won't think it is the same one and that they already voted. ::) :P


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 20, 2012, 12:06:47 AM
          ...Cross the highways of fantasy and meet me on the other siddddddeeeeeeee! ewwwww, Dream Weaver! I believe you can get me through night...


          You knew I was going to do that sooner or later on this. :P


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on October 20, 2012, 12:51:09 AM
          The bill says citizenship possibilities are to be revoked for those who are likely to become public charges and those who pose a public health risk. So then, these people who are in that category probably through no fault of their own even after they have worked hard for citizenship - what is to be done with them?


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 21, 2012, 11:20:40 PM
          Looking at that now, those provisions are a little unspecific.  I'll amend the bill so that they are removed-

          Quote
          SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

          1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

          • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
          • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
          • Has committed marriage fraud
          • Has abused a student visa, or;
          • Has engaged in persecution


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 22, 2012, 12:17:52 AM
          Quote from: Amendment 51:22 by Scott
          SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

          1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

          • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
          • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
          • Has committed marriage fraud
          • Has abused a student visa, or;
          • Has engaged in persecution

          Sponsor Feedback: Origination
          Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 22, 2012, 11:57:55 AM
          Wasn't my amendment next to be considered, Yank?


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 22, 2012, 02:16:51 PM
          May I nominate Senator Ben to be a cosponsor for this bill?


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 22, 2012, 03:39:01 PM
          I'll happily take over for Scott.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 10:42:15 AM

          See, page changes are very, very bad kids. :P It would help it if people paid attention daily, then I wouldn't forget things like this. ;)


          Scott's has passed, BEN'S IS NOW!!!


          Scott, co-sponsorship doesn't provide for succession of sponsorship when the primary one leaves. You have to move to withdraw the legislation, Ben desire to take over sponsorship, and then a 48 hour objection period opened.


          Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
          Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 10:44:33 AM
          Quote from: Amendment 51:16 by Ben
              A BILL

              To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

              Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

              SECTION 1. TITLE

              This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

              SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

              Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to Atlasia will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

              • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
              • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
              • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
              • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 in the classes taught in the Departments of English, Mathematics, History, and Science and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
              • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
              • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
              • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

              SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

              1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

              • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
              • Is likely to become a public charge
              • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
              • Has committed marriage fraud
              • Has abused a student visa
              • Has engaged in persecution, or;
              • Poses a public health risk

              2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

              SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

              $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.[/list][/list]

              Sponsor Feedback Hostile? Has this Changed?
              Status: waiting for clarficiation.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Napoleon on October 23, 2012, 10:45:23 AM

              See, page changes are very, very bad kids. :P It would help it if people paid attention daily, then I wouldn't forget things like this. ;)


              Scott's has passed, BEN'S IS NOW!!!


              Scott, co-sponsorship doesn't provide for succession of sponsorship when the primary one leaves. You have to move to withdraw the legislation, Ben desire to take over sponsorship, and then a 48 hour objection period opened.

              You're just deciding to ignore Senate tradition?


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Franzl on October 23, 2012, 10:45:36 AM
              As previously stated, I object to the amendment.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 10:51:55 AM
              I support this amendment. I would also seek to have the words "completes four years...." defined as well with a minimum GPA and such.

              This isn't something that we should give out to people, without getting some kind of benefit in return, like military service or a benefit to our economy/society with their knowledge. We want them to be contributing members of society, otherwise we are just legalizing them in one aspect and then leaving them with one foot in the shadows where the potential to get involved in criminal activity and such forth is high. This isn't something that you just hand out to these kids, it is a priviledge that you award to them in exchange for them working hard and earning it by proving they can contribute to society in a productive fashion.

              We don't want this to be something that people can take advantage of, just showing up for a semester or two and getting handed a meaningless degree with a D average that will likely never be worth a damn when they seek a job, just so that they can have legal status.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 10:59:17 AM

              See, page changes are very, very bad kids. :P It would help it if people paid attention daily, then I wouldn't forget things like this. ;)


              Scott's has passed, BEN'S IS NOW!!!


              Scott, co-sponsorship doesn't provide for succession of sponsorship when the primary one leaves. You have to move to withdraw the legislation, Ben desire to take over sponsorship, and then a 48 hour objection period opened.

              You're just deciding to ignore Senate tradition?

              https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Current_Senate_Rules,_Regulations,_and_Procedures
              Quote from: OSPR, Article 4: Section 1
              10. Co-sponsors of legislation under consideration shall have no power to withdraw legislation nor contest withdrawal of legislation by the original sponsor. Any office-holding Senator may assume sponsorship of the legislation within 72 hours after the original sponsor has motioned to withdraw. Once a motion to assume sponsorship has been placed by the Senator who wishes to sponsor the legislation, Senators shall have 48 hours to object to this motion. If any Senator objects to this motion, the PPT shall open a vote on the motion to assume sponsorship. This vote shall last for a maximum of 72 hours during which time the Senators must vote. Voting may be declared final at any time if a majority of office-holding Senators has approved or rejected said motion. Any and all Senators who do not vote will be considered to have abstained. If a motion to assume sponsorship is rejected, the legislation shall be withdrawn from the Senate floor.



              What the hell are you talking about?


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 11:02:32 AM
              https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Current_Senate_Rules,_Regulations,_and_Procedures

              Quote from: OSPR, Article 3, Section 1
              7. If at any time the original sponsor vacates his office as Senator, all legislation introduced in the Legislation Introduction Thread shall be declared withdrawn by the PPT by public post. If a piece of legislation has been introduced on the Senate floor, any office-holding Senator may assume sponsorship per the guidelines in Article 4, Section 1, Clause 8.


              Clauses have been added to the section so it is clause 10 now, which I just posted.

              So what are talking you, Mr. President?  


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Napoleon on October 23, 2012, 11:07:01 AM
              Cosponsors aren't treated currently than the regular sponsor. At least that's how it was when I left the Senate and I don't know when or why that would have been changed. There's no reason to make people jump through procedural hurdles that weren't necessary in the past.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 11:30:17 AM
              This part of the OSPR hasn't been change at all that I know off, save it being slid around because of other clauses being added and so forth.

              There may have been a time when I too misunderstood that clause, but certainly on the most recent cases, this is the procedure that I have used. Bgwah/Marokai may have been more flexible with this. I prefer the Bacon King model, call the 48 hours and let that wind down while Amendments are considered. That way you are getting it done, but it isn't interferring with the bill.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 23, 2012, 01:53:42 PM
              Assuming the rules haven't, in fact, changed, I will motion to withdraw the legislation.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
              Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 23, 2012, 01:54:05 PM
              I'll assume sponsorship of this legislation.


              Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
              Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 03:31:01 PM
              Senators have 48 hours to object to the assumption of sponsorship.



              Scott do you still view it as hostile, oh what the hell it doesn't matter anyway since Franzl objected.

              Quote from: Amendment 51:16 by Ben
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrive to Atlasia will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 in the classes taught in the Departments of English, Mathematics, History, and Science and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Is likely to become a public charge
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;
                  • Poses a public health risk

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.[/list][/list]

                  Sponsor Feedback Hostile? Has this Changed?
                  Status: Objection entered by Senator Franzl. This Amendment is now at vote, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 23, 2012, 03:36:23 PM
                  I'm kind of on the fence on this one.  While I agree with the amendment's ideals, I think it might be somewhat difficult to apply this to schools that offer certain electives.  For now, I will abstain.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 23, 2012, 03:39:28 PM
                  Aye


                  Scott, does the amendment in your view punish students for taking electives? I can't see how any self respecting high school wouldn't teach these core areas. I am a little confused here as to how it impacts electives.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Napoleon on October 23, 2012, 03:42:06 PM
                  Scott, does the amendment in your view punish students for taking electives?

                  It punishes them for having a different skill set than others.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Redalgo on October 23, 2012, 03:45:28 PM
                  Abstain. My position is unchanged, regardless of whether the amendment is made.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 23, 2012, 03:47:27 PM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 23, 2012, 03:47:47 PM
                  Aye


                  Scott, does the amendment in your view punish students for taking electives? I can't see how any self respecting high school wouldn't teach these core areas. I am a little confused here as to how it impacts electives.

                  I'm mainly referring to Hagrid's concern.  One student might take four history classes, while another might take one.  Others might take four or five science classes which are more difficult to get high marks in.  Basically, it would be difficult to implement a uniform policy like this since a lot of schools operate differently and offer unique choices.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Franzl on October 23, 2012, 03:51:57 PM
                  NAY


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 23, 2012, 07:13:20 PM
                  I have no objections to the switch of sponsorship.

                  Nay on the amendment.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 24, 2012, 01:04:09 PM
                  Nay

                  Scott pretty clearly outlined the reasons for my objection. I've mentioned them before. I just can't support an overly complex set of criteria that favours students choosing to tailor their coursework to a certain field of study. I think there should definitely be a GPA requirement, but we can't delve into the exact specifics of what their high school career should look like. I could understand mandating a certain level of achievement in English courses, but that's about it.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Sbane on October 24, 2012, 08:02:08 PM
                  Nay


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 27, 2012, 12:31:55 AM
                  This will end tomorrow.


                  We should start working craft an exceptable education standard then.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 28, 2012, 12:15:34 AM
                  Vote on Amendment 51:16

                  Aye (2): Ben and NC Yankee
                  Nay (5): Averroës Nix, Franzl, HagridoftheDeep, Marokai Blue and sbane
                  Abstain (1): Redalgo

                  Successor changed voted of predecessor Abstain => NAY (1): Scott
                  Vacant Seats (2): Bacon King and NVTownsend

                  The amendment has failed.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 28, 2012, 12:16:53 AM
                  Start talking people. Who support's Hagrid's idea, who opposes it? Are there alternative standards possibilities that have support?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 28, 2012, 12:28:51 AM
                  I just want the bill to have standards to ensure that immigrants work to have a successful academic life so that they won't end up trapped in poverty as a consequence of their disadvantaged starts here in Atlasia.  (Not sure if I already explained that part...)

                  On another note, I'd advise the Senate to draw up a comprehensive plan that addresses the issue of immigration entirely, and not just one for those who are already here.  This bill may not be amnesty-related, but it still doesn't set any official immigration standards or simplify the process for potential legal migrants.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 28, 2012, 12:51:18 AM
                  I just want the bill to have standards to ensure that immigrants work to have a successful academic life so that they won't end up trapped in poverty as a consequence of their disadvantaged starts here in Atlasia.  (Not sure if I already explained that part...)

                  ^ This. The stated goal of the RL Dream act is the same, though certain versions are defficient, an all to common occurance of "Say one thing, do another" on immigration policy in general.

                  On another note, I'd advise the Senate to draw up a comprehensive plan that addresses the issue of immigration entirely, and not just one for those who are already here.  This bill may not be amnesty-related, but it still doesn't set any official immigration standards or simplify the process for potential legal migrants.

                  Are you suggesting that as a seperate legislative effort or as a part of this? As a seperate legislative effort, I would be willing to work on crafting parts of that.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 28, 2012, 12:57:42 AM
                  Either's fine, really, but a separate bill might be a bit more appropriate depending on how significant it is.  I was surprised to go on the wiki and discover that after all these years, the Senate never got around to crafting an immigration policy.  I consider the DREAM Act a modest start.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 28, 2012, 01:21:43 AM
                  Either's fine, really, but a separate bill might be a bit more appropriate depending on how significant it is.  I was surprised to go on the wiki and discover that after all these years, the Senate never got around to crafting an immigration policy.  I consider the DREAM Act a modest start.

                  It is Ebowed's fault. :P For some reason in 2007, the left got it in its head that Amnesty was a fire and forget it weapon on immigration reform. In fact dealing with those already here is only a small piece of a big pie. And direct, mass amnesty is the most counterproductive immigration policy any fool ever dreamed up.

                  Or maybe he was just lazy. :P Yea probably that. ;) I really hope he pops in here because of this post. If he does, do I win something?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2012, 12:49:20 AM
                  Hagrid, Ben, the rest?


                  I must commend you guys on the most intense and substantive debate on this topic of educational standards in this bill? It is trully amazing that such engagement was possible, never before have I seen such interest and involvement...

                  ...I wish you lazy losers! :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on October 29, 2012, 12:52:27 AM
                  If no one has any ideas, it might be the time to move to a final vote. ;)

                  (Not that I'm the sponsor, or anything...)


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 29, 2012, 09:57:49 AM
                  I have nothing else to add.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 30, 2012, 12:52:34 AM
                  Quote from: Current Text
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 30, 2012, 12:54:47 AM
                  cost estimate:

                  $.5 billion    administration, biometric systems
                  $.6 billion    military pay
                  $2.5  billion    public services (federal)
                  $2.1  billion    public services (regional)
                  -$1.1 billion    tax revenues (federal)
                  -$.6 billion    tax revenues (regional)

                  $ 4 billion net expenses  ($2.5 B federal, $1.5 B regional)


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 30, 2012, 01:04:46 AM
                  Quote from: Amendment 51:30 by NC Yankee
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Sponsor Feedback: Unstated
                  Status: Pending


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 30, 2012, 11:48:24 AM
                  Sorry for my lack of discussion on educational standards, but I just don't think the specifics are necessary. I'm not sure on the equivalent in the United Stat—ahem, Atlasia—but here, our provincial Ministries of Education set the necessary coursework for students. Every student in Ontario must take English through grade 12. Every student must take math through grade 11. Every student must take science through grade 10. I figure the "Ministry" requirements for graduation in the Atlasian regions are good enough benchmarks for our illegals. The general GPA requirement will ensure that we're extending this bill to hardworking students.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Franzl on October 30, 2012, 11:57:50 AM
                  Quote from: Current Text
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  I propose this amendment as a substitute.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Franzl on October 30, 2012, 12:01:23 PM
                  I would appreciate some discussion on this. If the GPA is something you absolutely require (I think it's absurd, but most here seem to think differently), can we at least discuss the suspension rule? Are we seriously saying one suspension at any point as a teenager is something that should decide over whether that person can become a citizen of Atlasia? Seriously?

                  The medical examinations seem wrong to me...but the submission of biometric data is really wrong. For what purpose?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 30, 2012, 12:10:30 PM
                  My hard-line conservative stance on qualification for amnesty is that "it shouldn't be simple." Maybe that's heartless, but this is a huge privilege to extend, and I'm kind of surprised I'm even at the table at all. I really think there should be a general GPA requirement. I'm not against the "no-suspensions" rule. I have little opinion on medical requirements, but I'm not against them as an additional hoop to jump through.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Franzl on October 30, 2012, 12:18:33 PM
                  My hard-line conservative stance on qualification for amnesty is that "it shouldn't be simple." Maybe that's heartless, but this is a huge privilege to extend, and I'm kind of surprised I'm even at the table at all. I really think there should be a general GPA requirement. I'm not against the "no-suspensions" rule. I have little opinion on medical requirements, but I'm not against them as an additional hoop to jump through.

                  We shouldn't be creating hoops that people need to jump through. Any restrictions we decide on should only serve legitimate interests.

                  Why do we allow birthright citizenship for people born in this country (irrespective of the legal status of their parents), but if they're brought into Atlasia when they're 2 years old, we deny them any chance at citizenship if they got suspended from school once and have a 2.9 GPA in high school. And then we force them to submit biometric information as an "additional hoop to jump through"? You think this is alright?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on October 30, 2012, 12:28:37 PM
                  Nothing is preventing them from going back home and getting in line the way they were supposed to. Like I said, I'm not against the "no-suspension" rule. And I phrased it that way on purpose: If it was removed, I would probably still vote for the legislation. I'm just not going to be the one to amend the bill. Because yes, I do think it's all right.

                  I do still think there should be a base level of academic achievement.

                  Soon we'll get parents bringing children over to Atlasia just because they know the kids will get amnesty. We can't reward that, whether the children asked for it or not. The children have their say in the matter by working towards the academic standards outlined in the bill.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Franzl on October 30, 2012, 12:31:52 PM
                  Nothing is preventing them from going back home and getting in line the way they were supposed to. Like I said, I'm not against the "no-suspension" rule. And I phrased it that way on purpose: If it was removed, I would probably still vote for the legislation. I'm just not going to be the one to amend the bill. Because yes, I do think it's all right.

                  I do still think there should be a base level of academic achievement.

                  Soon we'll get parents bringing children over to Atlasia just because they know the kids will get amnesty. We can't reward that, whether the children asked for it or not. The children have their say in the matter by working towards the academic standards outlined in the bill.

                  I still don't see how this is consistent with the principle of birthright citizenship. Can't a woman cross the border to give birth to her child so that the child will automatically not only receive a residency permit but citizenship?

                  If you're against granting citizenship based on place of birth, than you are at least consistent, even though I think it's bad policy :)


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 30, 2012, 12:55:04 PM
                  That is because they are currently in a situation that wasn't their fault that they are in, but regardless are still in it and this is aimed at giving those who prove that they want to come into the system, want to be a benefit to society and such, a chance to correct that situation.

                  This will ensure that education and hardwork is priotized and thus that they have a better chance of success, rather than just legalizing them as is and leaving them on the fringes of society with higher than average poverty, dropout rates and crime rates. That won't help them and it won't help the country either.

                  I am surprised to see Franzl making the "Anti-Anchor Baby" argument and attaching it greater legitimacy, even as a devil's advocacy. :P Birthright citizenship does encourage illegal immigration, but I think that it is a much smaller group and not worth sacrificing an ideal to target them directly by removing said enocouragement. You have to be a women, of a certain age and pregnant for that to be a consideration, for one. Lastly, strong border, internal and workplace enforcement provide enough counter incentive, I would think. That is why I don't support changing the interpretation of the 14th like some of my fellow, more extreme border hawks do. I also am not nearly has hostile to immigration overall as the NumbersUSA crowd is overall.

                  As I have said countless times, you can carve out a select group who didn't choose to come here, and give them a break without encouraging future illegal immigration. However, when you remove the standards, you create an inducement for the parents to purposely try and come here illegally in the future under the assumption that the next round will include their child (since it seems we do this every 10 years and some never learn from the results :P). When you create a mass amnesty that situation gets even worse. We have done that in the past and each time the next group coming in was larger then the one before. We can't rely on economic stagnation and destruction of the "Atlasian Dream" these people seek in the first place, just to ensure that the flow of illegals is stemmed. We need to have that same kind of situaiton regardless of how well the economy is doing.

                  But I probably haven't sold you on the contradiction have I?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 30, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
                  Quote from: Amendment 50:31 by Franzl
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Sponsor Feedback: No Data
                  Status: Pending Feedback and Completion of Amendment 50:30 which also needs Feedback still.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 30, 2012, 01:11:37 PM
                  SPONSOR!!!!!!!!!

                  If I don't get some responses soon, there is no telling what my alt..ah...what "he" might do. >:D




                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 30, 2012, 02:36:38 PM
                  50:30 is Friendly


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 31, 2012, 06:55:48 AM
                  Quote from: Amendment 51:30 by NC Yankee
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
                  Status: Senators have 24 hours to object. 


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 01, 2012, 12:56:32 PM
                  The amendment has passed.


                  Ben, would it have killed you to give feedback on both amendments :P No wonder your numbers are so low. :P



                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 01, 2012, 01:28:51 PM
                  I thought you wanted to wait :P  50:31 is also friendly.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 01, 2012, 01:32:38 PM
                  I thought you wanted to wait :P  50:31 is also friendly.
                  Until my amendmnet was done, yeah. But if I had the feedback thne and there it would have been efficient to dive right into the next one, after 50:30 was done. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 01, 2012, 01:34:04 PM
                  Quote from: Amendment 50:31 by Franzl
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or completes four years at an institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
                  Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2012, 11:36:09 AM
                  Interesting, I jsut noticed that I have been transcribing 50 instead of 51 on some of these amendment numbers. No big issue since it only happened once or twice and the amendment specfic numbers (1-33) are fine. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2012, 11:43:49 AM
                  Quote from: Amendment 51:34 by NC Yankee
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Sponsor Feedback: No Data
                  Status: Error State. 


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 02, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
                  Franzl, did you go back and edit your amendment to remove the strikethrough for the GPA requirements? I could've sworn the GPA requirement was crossed out when I first read it.

                  As it stands now though, I can probably support your amended version of the bill.

                  Also, no objection on Yankee's amendment.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 05, 2012, 05:43:20 PM
                  Friendly


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Franzl on November 06, 2012, 04:09:46 AM
                  Franzl, did you go back and edit your amendment to remove the strikethrough for the GPA requirements? I could've sworn the GPA requirement was crossed out when I first read it.

                  As it stands now though, I can probably support your amended version of the bill.



                  Yes, I did. I still support eliminating the GPA requirements, but I doubt a majority would agree.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 07, 2012, 03:41:56 PM
                  All right, lol. Just making sure I wasn't going insane. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 08, 2012, 05:07:40 PM
                  Quote from: Amendment 51:34 by NC Yankee
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 3.10 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
                  Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.



                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 09, 2012, 05:29:09 PM
                  The amendment has passed.


                  So did Franzls, my post on that one appears to have vanished.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 10, 2012, 02:12:38 AM
                  I feel the GPA is too high, somewhere in the vicinity of 2.7 would be more appropriate. That aside, I support this bill in its entirety.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Marokai Backbeat on November 10, 2012, 02:16:39 AM
                  I feel the GPA is too high, somewhere in the vicinity of 2.7 would be more appropriate. That aside, I support this bill in its entirety.

                  I tend to agree about the GPA requirements being too high, although I wish they weren't there at all.

                  Why not? Let's give lowering it a shot. I propose the following amendment:

                  Quote
                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 2.70 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 10, 2012, 02:24:10 AM
                  Obviously, I am in support.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Franzl on November 10, 2012, 01:19:48 PM
                  I would rather abolish it entirely, but I'll take the reduction.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 10, 2012, 02:07:00 PM
                  Unfriendly.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 10, 2012, 06:49:15 PM
                  Quote from: Amendment 52:03 by Marokai Blue
                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 2.70 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions

                  Sponsor Feedback: Hostile
                  Status: Vote to come soon! :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 10, 2012, 06:49:53 PM
                  I oppose this laxing of the standards.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 10, 2012, 06:56:23 PM

                  As do I, especially given that lack of hard standards in subjects like math and history.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 11, 2012, 03:20:15 PM
                  Quote from: Amendment 52:03 by Marokai Blue
                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes a medical examination and submits biometric information
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 2.70 and without any history of suspensions or expulsions

                  Sponsor Feedback: Hostile
                  Status: Senators this amendment is now vote, so vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 11, 2012, 03:44:13 PM
                  NAY! NO WAY IN HELL!!! :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 11, 2012, 04:09:13 PM
                  Nay


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on November 11, 2012, 04:12:02 PM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Niemeyerite on November 11, 2012, 04:27:36 PM
                  AYE.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Oakvale on November 11, 2012, 04:27:44 PM
                  Like Senator Franzl, I'm also not fan of having a GPA requirement on principle, but lowering it is better than nothing if we must have it. Aye.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 11, 2012, 04:36:58 PM
                  Nay


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 11, 2012, 05:53:12 PM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Amendment at Vote)
                  Post by: Franzl on November 12, 2012, 01:10:40 AM
                  AYE


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 12, 2012, 06:42:39 PM
                  Vote on Amendment 52:03:

                  Aye (6): Averroës Nix, Franzl, JulioMadrid, Oakvale, Simfan34, and Snowstalker
                  Nay (3): Ben, HagridoftheDeep and NC Yankee
                  Abstain (0):

                  Didn't Vote (1): Marokai Blue

                  The amendment has passed.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 14, 2012, 04:09:41 PM
                  Do we have direction on this bill? any more amendemnts etc?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 14, 2012, 04:18:28 PM
                  Quote from: Current Text
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 2.70 and without any history of expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  Just realized several of the previous amendments weren't altered as we went and thus those offered at the same time and those evne offered later didn't incporante say Franzl's amendment. Fortunately, I can use the clause in the OSPR stating that amendments only change the specified pieces to avoid this from becoming a disaster.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: Marokai Backbeat on November 14, 2012, 09:50:13 PM
                  Phew, I'm glad that passed without me being able to be here, because I wouldn't have been very happy with myself if that failed because of me. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Debating)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 14, 2012, 10:03:45 PM
                  The Senate should move this to a final vote ASAP before more people lax the standards beyond reason.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 15, 2012, 08:08:34 PM
                  A final vote request has been entered by Senator Yankee and no debate has occured in the last 24 hours.


                  Senators, tihs bill is now at final vote, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 15, 2012, 09:01:59 PM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on November 15, 2012, 09:13:04 PM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 15, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 15, 2012, 11:20:59 PM
                  NOT AS ENTHUSIASTICALLY AYE AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 16, 2012, 02:11:19 AM
                  I'm not sure where I stand now that this bill has gotten closer to unconditional amnesty. I'll drop in before the vote closes with my final verdict.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Marokai Backbeat on November 16, 2012, 03:29:55 AM
                  Aye.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Niemeyerite on November 16, 2012, 05:22:22 AM
                  Aye


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Franzl on November 16, 2012, 07:30:30 AM
                  AYE, as it's certainly better than nothing. I would prefer if we forced people to jump through fewer hoops....but alright.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Oakvale on November 16, 2012, 09:35:04 AM
                  Since this apparently has more than enough votes to pass, I'm going to symbolically vote against this in protest of the aforementioned hoops we're making people jump through. In the event that my vote somehow becomes the deciding one, I'll change it on the grounds that this is better than nothing, at least.

                  Nay.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 16, 2012, 03:53:16 PM
                  This has enough votes to pass, Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 16, 2012, 11:35:07 PM
                  Aye

                  Not sure if it's too late. If it is, my apologies.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 18, 2012, 05:09:17 PM
                  Perhaps, I should formally present this at midnight. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (At Final Vote)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 06:40:43 PM
                  Wait did I vote on this? Aye! (again?)


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 18, 2012, 06:46:06 PM
                  Yes, you already voted here.

                  I am going to go ahead and end this, there is no way to acheive precise timing, I would need to effectuate what I mentioned earlier.

                  Final Vote on Passage of The Dream Act:

                  Aye (9): Averroës Nix, Ben, Franzl, HagridOfTheDeep, JulioMadrid, Marokai Blue, NC Yankee, Simfan34 and Snowstalker.
                  Nay (1): Oakvale
                  Abstain (0):

                  Didn't Vote (0):

                  The bill has passed the Senate and is presented to the President for his signature or veto.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 06:50:01 PM
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                      The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                      The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school without any history of expulsions
                      The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                      The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                      The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation


                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                      Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                      Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                      Has abused a student visa
                      Has engaged in persecution, or;


                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 18, 2012, 06:50:11 PM
                  Quote from: Final Text
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 2.70 and without any history of expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:01:18 PM
                  I'd like the new text to be considered.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 07:16:13 PM
                  ()


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 07:21:32 PM
                  I certainly hope the Senate has an alternative solution to ensuring that the children of illegal immigrants do not struggle through the system with a low GPA.  I'll interpret the removal of that standard as a signal that there will be something to replace that, even though no one has proposed such a substitute.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:22:56 PM
                  I certainly hope the Senate has an alternative solution to ensuring that the children of illegal immigrants do not fall through the cracks with a low GPA.  I'll interpret the removal of that standard as a signal that there will be something to replace that.

                  What do you mean?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 18, 2012, 07:31:30 PM
                  The senate reached a compromise that managed to garner "aye" votes from nine out of ten senators. Apparently this compromise means very little.

                  If the bill gets vetoed, as I suspect it will, I urge the sponsor to move for a veto override. Either way, I cannot support the president's alternate bill.

                  I'm also unsure about what you mean, Scott.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 18, 2012, 07:32:00 PM
                  So I take it then that you have vetoed this and have offered a redraft, Mr. President?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:32:57 PM
                  That is correct.

                  Hopefully the Senate can pass my proposed compromise bill.

                  The senate reached a compromise that managed to garner "aye" votes from nine out of ten senators. Apparently this compromise means very little.

                  I know thinking has always been your strong suit, so consider me surprised to see this sort of post from you, but this compromise I've proposed is more likely to get that Nay voter on board. I'm reaching out to build consensus here and you're just continuing to throw around attacks to amuse yourself.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 07:34:27 PM
                  I already explained it.  The GPA requirement was included to help prevent beneficiaries of the program from not being successful.  If we're taking away that standard, the least we should do is put a new one in that fulfills the same purpose.  I urge the Senate to defeat this bill if the President's proposal ends up being the final text.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 18, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
                  I request a veto override.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:38:53 PM
                  I already explained it.  The GPA requirement was included to help prevent beneficiaries of the program from not being successful.  If we're taking away that standard, the least we should do is put a new one in that fulfills the same purpose.  I urge the Senate to defeat this bill if the President's proposal ends up being the final text.

                  The GPA requirement will not prevent beneficiaries from being unsuccessful, it simply prevents beneficiaries. You're automatically counting what is likely a majority of people who would otherwise be eligible through that single requirement. A 2.7 GPA could be difficult to reach for someone who might not have as good a grasp of the English language as a native Atlasian. The military or college degree requirements are what will determine the success of these citizenship-hopefuls.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:41:40 PM

                  As an expert on our great Constitution, I must remind you that you do not have that ability.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 07:45:55 PM
                  I already explained it.  The GPA requirement was included to help prevent beneficiaries of the program from not being successful.  If we're taking away that standard, the least we should do is put a new one in that fulfills the same purpose.  I urge the Senate to defeat this bill if the President's proposal ends up being the final text.

                  The GPA requirement will not prevent beneficiaries from being unsuccessful, it simply prevents beneficiaries. You're automatically counting what is likely a majority of people who would otherwise be eligible through that single requirement. A 2.7 GPA could be difficult to reach for someone who might not have as good a grasp of the English language as a native Atlasian. The military or college degree requirements are what will determine the success of these citizenship-hopefuls.

                  It simply gives beneficiaries the incentive to succeed in school, in spite of their disadvantages, so that they won't end up trapped in poverty.  If a 2.7 GPA won't do the trick, then there should be something else put in the bill to ensure academic success and prevent that from happening.  None of the opponents of the GPA requirement have yet offered an alternative standard or provision to the bill that fulfill the same purpose.  So I'll ask again: what do we have as something that can be added to the bill, instead?  If someone just flat out says, "We have none," then well, at least it's honest.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 18, 2012, 07:47:04 PM
                  As an expert on our great Constitution, I must remind you that you do not have that ability.

                  I'm the bill's sponsor.  I can request an override.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 18, 2012, 07:47:30 PM
                  That is correct.

                  Hopefully the Senate can pass my proposed compromise bill.

                  The senate reached a compromise that managed to garner "aye" votes from nine out of ten senators. Apparently this compromise means very little.

                  I know thinking has always been your strong suit, so consider me surprised to see this sort of post from you, but this compromise I've proposed is more likely to get that Nay voter on board. I'm reaching out to build consensus here and you're just continuing to throw around attacks to amuse yourself.

                  Yes, Mr. Wonderful, and your so-called "compromise" is certainly going to lose at least one vote anyway. So instead of appreciating the decision the senate came to, you'd rather have us jump through bureaucratic hoops for a result that will at best include the same number of ayes that it recieved in the first place. And, quite frankly, I don't think that best case scenario is all that likely. So congrats on your selfless compromise.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 07:48:22 PM
                  Problem is he hasn't actually vetoed it yet. So we're at an impasse until he decides to do something. He's keeping us hostage, in a way, and I'm not too enthused about that.

                  I drafted a compromise, Mr. President, and we passed that compromise. I'd recommend you accept it, but can you at least help us move forward with the business of governing?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 07:49:39 PM
                  That is correct.

                  Hopefully the Senate can pass my proposed compromise bill.

                  The senate reached a compromise that managed to garner "aye" votes from nine out of ten senators. Apparently this compromise means very little.

                  I know thinking has always been your strong suit, so consider me surprised to see this sort of post from you, but this compromise I've proposed is more likely to get that Nay voter on board. I'm reaching out to build consensus here and you're just continuing to throw around attacks to amuse yourself.

                  Yes, Mr. Wonderful, and your so-called "compromise" is certainly going to lose at least one vote anyway. So instead of appreciating the decision the senate came to, you'd rather have us jump through bureaucratic hoops for a result that will at best include the same number of ayes that it recieved in the first place. And, quite frankly, I don't think that best case scenario is all that likely. So congrats on your selfless compromise.

                  Precisely.  The "compromise" was already made when the GPA standard was lowered.  But of course, that's just not enough for some people.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:52:09 PM
                  There's absolutely no need for an "alternative". Removing a bad policy is addition by subtraction.

                  The GPA requirement is unnecessary. Students have the incentive to do good in school because doing good in school is necessary to get in to college, and a college degree or military service is necessary. Someone with a 2.3 GPA and fifteen years of military service wouldn't even be a citizen because he struggled with math when he was fifteen. That's completely ridiculous.

                  If they need citizenship to motivate them to be successful, instead of the rewards success brings, then there's obviously other problems with those affected. The GPA requirement still wouldn't be necessary, and why not make citizenship contingent on high school GPA for native-born Atlasians, to motivate them so that they don't fall in to poverty?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 07:53:58 PM
                  By your logic, Mr. President, why not just let the entire world just stroll into the country?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:54:04 PM
                  That is correct.

                  Hopefully the Senate can pass my proposed compromise bill.

                  The senate reached a compromise that managed to garner "aye" votes from nine out of ten senators. Apparently this compromise means very little.

                  I know thinking has always been your strong suit, so consider me surprised to see this sort of post from you, but this compromise I've proposed is more likely to get that Nay voter on board. I'm reaching out to build consensus here and you're just continuing to throw around attacks to amuse yourself.

                  Yes, Mr. Wonderful, and your so-called "compromise" is certainly going to lose at least one vote anyway. So instead of appreciating the decision the senate came to, you'd rather have us jump through bureaucratic hoops for a result that will at best include the same number of ayes that it recieved in the first place. And, quite frankly, I don't think that best case scenario is all that likely. So congrats on your selfless compromise.

                  Yeah, obviously I need to be considered with whether 60% or 80% or 100% of the Senate wants to vote for the bill instead of what the effects are. I'm here to serve you, those petty little people be damned!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:56:10 PM
                  By your logic, Mr. President, why not just let the entire world just stroll into the country?

                  I thought it was well-understood by all when the bill was proposed that everyone affected by this is already in the country.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 07:56:44 PM
                  Mr. President, will you please take action on this bill? Veto it, and we'll work on an override. Sign it, and I will personally introduce a new bill that amends the DREAM Act to incorporate your recommendations.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
                  Mr. President, will you please take action on this bill? Veto it, and we'll work on an override. Sign it, and I will personally introduce a new bill that amends the DREAM Act to incorporate your recommendations.

                  I've already taken action on this bill. Read the thread. Jesus. F'ing. Christ.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 18, 2012, 07:58:34 PM
                  Yeah, obviously I need to be considered with whether 60% or 80% or 100% of the Senate wants to vote for the bill instead of what the effects are. I'm here to serve you, those petty little people be damned!

                  Don't worry, you've made it clear you don't care on whit for the Senate, and prefer to be as obstructionist and confrontational as possible.  Sign or veto the damn bill, and use the words.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 08:00:08 PM
                  Yeah, obviously I need to be considered with whether 60% or 80% or 100% of the Senate wants to vote for the bill instead of what the effects are. I'm here to serve you, those petty little people be damned!

                  Don't worry, you've made it clear you don't care on whit for the Senate, and prefer to be as obstructionist and confrontational as possible.  Sign or veto the damn bill, and use the words.

                  You're the obstructionist.

                  Quote
                  The original sponsor of the bill, as so defined in Senate rules, shall either file a motion to approve the President’s redraft by a simple majority vote, and return it to the President for his signature or veto, or withdraw the bill from the Senate.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 08:00:38 PM
                  Mr. President, will you please take action on this bill? Veto it, and we'll work on an override. Sign it, and I will personally introduce a new bill that amends the DREAM Act to incorporate your recommendations.

                  I've already taken action on this bill. Read the thread. Jesus. F'ing. Christ.

                  You went and introduced a new text, Mr. President. You know very well I am asking you to either veto or sign this bill.

                  In any case Ben, can we just take a vote on the President's proposal?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 08:01:48 PM
                  Mr. President, will you please take action on this bill? Veto it, and we'll work on an override. Sign it, and I will personally introduce a new bill that amends the DREAM Act to incorporate your recommendations.

                  I've already taken action on this bill. Read the thread. Jesus. F'ing. Christ.

                  You went and introduced a new text, Mr. President. You know very well I am asking you to either veto or sign this bill.

                  I can't do either until Senator Ben performs his constitutional duty.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 18, 2012, 08:02:47 PM
                  Since I cannot override the veto, I ask that the Senate approve Napoleon's redraft.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 08:03:53 PM
                  Do we need the PPT to conduct this or is Ben's declaration sufficient?]

                  Nay on the President's redraft.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 08:07:16 PM
                  In my view, those who come into Atlasia with less advantages have more hoops to go through in general.  If we don't include something in the bill (if not more standards, but something else) that ensures that these students will succeed in spite of their disadvantages, they are more likely to end up in poverty than a native-born Atlasian.  With no other safeguard against that, the bill would not be fulfilling its central purpose.  I'm willing to support removal of the GPA requirement if something else is added, but again, that hasn't happened yet, and I cannot endorse a bill that guarantees citizenship but nothing else to those who are disadvantaged.

                  If I might suggest, perhaps the Senate can consider creating a program that's tailored to the needs of those who were not born in Atlasia and helps them succeed, as a substitute.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 18, 2012, 08:09:39 PM
                  Quote
                  Yeah, obviously I need to be considered with whether 60% or 80% or 100% of the Senate wants to vote for the bill instead of what the effects are. I'm here to serve you, those petty little people be damned!

                  Well, you seemed very "considered" with senate consensus just a few minutes ago when you said this:

                  Quote
                  But this compromise I've proposed is more likely to get that Nay voter on board. I'm reaching out to build consensus here.

                  Anyhow, I love that you're debating the merits of the GPA requirement now instead of when we were all actually talking about this issue. Your opinion would've been much more welcome then. Instead, you're stirring up controversy at the last minute when it could have easily been avoided. Do you really get off on conflict this much? Or are you actually just this bad at working with others?


                  Yankee will hopefully turn up soon. I'm not voting on a re-draft until he disseminates what's gone on here. I will vote against it.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 18, 2012, 08:12:26 PM
                  Nix, I did not know that actually.

                  I encourage everyone to defeat the President's alternative.  NAY!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Oakvale on November 18, 2012, 08:20:45 PM
                  I'm actually very much in favour of the President's proposed redraft, whatever the controversy it's caused.


                  Aye.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 08:21:46 PM
                  Again, I reiterate my opposition to this bill.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 08:22:15 PM
                  I'm embarrassed that a former Secretary of External Affairs feels our military personnel doesn't deserve citizenship unless they earn a B average in high school.

                  Here are the facts:

                  1) Getting a college degree is more likely to give you a successful future than having a good high school GPA.
                  2) A good high school GPA is pretty much necessary to get to college.
                  3) To quote Scott, the bill's original author:
                  Quote
                  Emphasizing grades more wouldn't be a very effective way of tackling this issue.
                  4) Someone with a 2.0 GPA can be a very productive member of our society. That person may not go to college and become a doctor but if they are willing to put their life on the line for this nation's security, and you're still willing to tell them they aren't welcome here, it's not that that there is a problem with that person. There's a problem with you.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Speed of Sound on November 18, 2012, 08:28:42 PM
                  For what it's worth, despite the poor way, to say the least, that it all has been gone about, I support the argument of the President. Millions of Atlasians have lived wonderfully productive and co-operative lives with lesser GPAs, and the bill already fixes the problems created by removing the GPA requirement: without a good one, one cannot get into college; if they then do not enter the military, then they are removed; if they serve our country and have a high school diploma, they deserve to stay, gentlemen.

                  I'm embarrassed that a former Secretary of External Affairs feels our military personnel doesn't deserve citizenship unless they earn a B average in high school.
                  As a former SoEA myself, I am equally disheartened.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 08:32:48 PM
                  I'm actually very much in favour of the President's proposed redraft, whatever the controversy it's caused.

                  Here's a breakdown of the controversy:

                  Action 1: President proposes a redraft in accordance with the Constitution
                  Reaction: Is accused of obstructionism, told to take action.

                  Action 2: President proposes a version of the bill that meets the concerns of the bill's opponent.
                  Reaction: Is said to be unwilling to compromise.

                  Action 3: President proposes slight modifications to the bill.
                  Reaction: Is accused of wanting to let everyone in the world stroll into the country (the bill only deals with people already in the country) and wanting the beneficiaries to fail (they are still required to serve in the military or complete college, each of which is more likely to lead to a successful future than high school gpa success by itself).


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 08:34:08 PM
                  I'm embarrassed that a former Secretary of External Affairs feels our military personnel doesn't deserve citizenship unless they earn a B average in high school.

                  Here are the facts:

                  1) Getting a college degree is more likely to give you a successful future than having a good high school GPA.
                  2) A good high school GPA is pretty much necessary to get to college.
                  3) To quote Scott, the bill's original author:
                  Quote
                  Emphasizing grades more wouldn't be a very effective way of tackling this issue.
                  4) Someone with a 2.0 GPA can be a very productive member of our society. That person may not go to college and become a doctor but if they are willing to put their life on the line for this nation's security, and you're still willing to tell them they aren't welcome here, it's not that that there is a problem with that person. There's a problem with you.

                  If don't have a decent high school GPA, you will have a much difficult time getting into college.  People wanted a lower GPA.  Okay, we did that.  Eliminating it entirely wasn't necessary.  While I don't think grades themselves are everything, they are unfortunately the only way of measuring academic success with the current system.  I would anticipate a change to that provision of the DREAM Act if the student evaluation system were changed as well, but for now we are left with GPA.

                  Earlier, we could have discussed using different methods of measuring student success and improving the requirement itself (which could have even meant making it less restrictive in its nature), but you chose to wait until the last minute to make emotional appeals and completely misrepresent why some of us feel that there should be GPA requirement in the name of political correctness.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 09:08:44 PM
                  None of that really has anything to do with the actual question. The question is not "What, if any, restrictions should be placed on citizenship applicants related to their high school grade point average?". The question is "Why should restrictions be placed on citizenship applicants related to their high school grade point average?".

                  The collective opposition's answer, correct me if I am wrong, seems to be that citizenship should be used to motivate students to do well in high school, which will prepare them better for the future.

                  It is the opinion of this President that students must perform to their best in high school, and that strong standards are in place to help them succeed. I certainly share the concern for these citizenship-hopefuls that Scott and Ben do.

                  However, I must ask that the redraft I have presented be considered with this in mind:

                  A good high school GPA is often necessary to succeed, but the correlation is largely because a good high school GPA is needed to get in to a university. I think a good argument can be made that a 4.0 high school GPA, 2.4 GPA college graduate is less likely to be successful than a 2.5 high school GPA, 4.0 GPA college graduate.

                  Many students may struggle with the daily tasks of homework, might not have a good grasp of math or English but are otherwise smart and talented individuals. These students may decide to go another route, and serve our nation honorably in the military, build character and learn skills, and go on to be leaders in the work-place, or own a small business. How could you say these Atlasians do not deserve citizenship, that they are not welcome to participate in our democracy despite putting their life on the line to preserve it?

                  In other words, I don't want them to succeed so they can get citizenship. I want them to get citizenship so they can succeed.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 09:32:26 PM
                  Because, as I've explained a million times, there needs to be some type of safeguard for those who are more likely to be unsuccessful because of their disadvantages.  I laid those out in the original draft of the bill to be discussed.  The standards were intended to be altered in a way that would make them better for people who take advantage of the program, but should not have been removed if they serve a purpose.

                  The GPA requirement, in my view, served a very important purpose, and if it wasn't acceptable in the eyes of my colleagues, could have been replaced by something that carries its same intentions.  Indeed, a high GPA is essential to get into a good college, and that's what draws the connection between that and living a successful life.  It goes without saying that the GPA wouldn't have to be the absolute maximum, but it should be reasonable and it should be enough to incentive success in high school as long as it's there.

                  You mention students who struggle.  That is a problem that could have been addressed much earlier in the debate.  And of course, even if a student does take a military career, that doesn't negate the importance of a good high school performance.  It isn't that I'm against giving citizenship to those who want it, it's that I don't want our message to be, "We'll give you your citizenship, but leave you to fend for yourself after that."  And such was the reasoning behind the GPA requirement.  It's not necessarily the GPA itself I care about -- that's not the issue at all -- but it's the placement of something that will help immigrants find good jobs and not fall through the cracks because they were off to a rough start.  I was open to alternatives.  I was open to compromise and not causing disdain for myself for literally every single person I've met on this site.

                  But was an alternative proposed?  No.  Instead, we've seen a barrage of strawman arguments, personal attacks, emotional appeals, and absolutely no willingness to compromise on this issue, all over a disagreement that could have been settled weeks ago.  Now people want to pass this bill with less standards and nothing to adequately ensure that these people succeed in high school, succeed in college, and succeed in life as an Atlasian citizen.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Speed of Sound on November 18, 2012, 09:41:01 PM
                  Just to stay up to date, with Ben's opposition, does this bill now return to the President's desk for signature or full veto?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Speed of Sound on November 18, 2012, 09:49:43 PM
                  Just to stay up to date, with Ben's opposition, does this bill now return to the President's desk for signature or full veto?

                  If the president's re-draft passes, it becomes law. If it fails, Ben can file a motion to send the original bill back to the president's desk for executive action.
                  Ah, a re-reading of the procedure helped me find my misunderstanding; thanks Senator!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 10:10:02 PM
                  Because, as I've explained a million times, there needs to be some type of safeguard for those who are more likely to be unsuccessful because of their disadvantages. 

                  How does a GPA requirement act as a safeguard in this case?


                  Quote
                  The GPA requirement, in my view, served a very important purpose, and if it wasn't acceptable in the eyes of my colleagues, could have been replaced by something that carries its same intentions.  Indeed, a high GPA is essential to get into a good college, and that's what draws the connection between that and living a successful life.  It goes without saying that the GPA wouldn't have to be the absolute maximum, but it should be reasonable and it should be enough to incentive success in high school as long as it's there.

                  If the bolded statement is true, then you are admitting that the GPA requirement itself is unnecessary.

                  Quote
                  You mention students who struggle.  That is a problem that could have been addressed much earlier in the debate.  And of course, even if a student does take a military career, that doesn't negate the importance of a good high school performance.

                  It may not negate the importance of a good high school performance, but it certainly should negate the importance of a good high school performance when deciding who is eligible for citizenship.

                  Quote
                  It isn't that I'm against giving citizenship to those who want it, it's that I don't want our message to be, "We'll give you your citizenship, but leave you to fend for yourself after that."  And such was the reasoning behind the GPA requirement.

                  College graduates and military personnel have all the tools to succeed. No high school GPA is going to change that. Even for those who don't believe a military career can actually lay a foundation for success (those people are wrong), a military career can open the door for college in the future, for those who may not have been so successful in high school. I understand this forum is largely comprised of, well, nerdy upper middle class white males with two parents but a B average in high school is really asking a lot from some good people who have talent and the will to succeed in this country.


                  Quote
                  It's not necessarily the GPA itself I care about -- that's not the issue at all -- but it's the placement of something that will help immigrants find good jobs and not fall through the cracks because they were off to a rough start. 

                  We have those things- it's called the college requirement and the military requirement. How are those people going to fall through the cracks? The only people falling through the cracks are the students who got a 2.6 GPA in high school and put their life on the line to defend us or worked hard and still managed to graduate from college, yet will never be able to earn citizenship and participate in normal Atlasian society. So, I guess it depends on how you define "cracks" or "something that will help immigrants find good jobs". I promise all of you that a 4.0 high school GPA, 2.4 GPA college graduate is less likely to find a good job than a 2.5 high school GPA, 4.0 GPA college graduate.


                  Quote
                  I was open to alternatives.  I was open to compromise and not causing disdain for myself for literally every single person I've met on this site.

                  But was an alternative proposed?  No.  Instead, we've seen a barrage of strawman arguments, personal attacks, emotional appeals, and absolutely no willingness to compromise on this issue, all over a disagreement that could have been settled weeks ago.  Now people want to pass this bill with less standards and nothing to adequately ensure that these people succeed in high school, succeed in college, and succeed in life as an Atlasian citizen.

                  I don't know how to respond to this. I think you're just getting a little emotional. One of the requirements in this bill is that the applicants "succeed in college" so this is a little over-dramatized.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 10:29:47 PM
                  It's simple: the GPA requirement is an incentive for citizenship.  Nowhere in that post did I say that the requirement is unnecessary, and I have no idea where you got that from.  You can't expect someone to succeed in college if they didn't in high school.  I will admit that maybe such a requirement should be applied to college instead of or as well as high school (not that I have any confidence that such a change would get support from the Senate), or only to those who opt not to serve in the military, but that was never put on the table as opposed to the proposed plan that removes the standard entirely.  Being in school is great; succeeding in school is better.

                  I'm not getting emotional.  I just think the way you paint your opponents on this issue is, quite frankly, silly.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 10:34:13 PM
                  Would you be open, Napoleon, to making the aforementioned changes?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 10:40:40 PM
                  I haven't painted those who disagree with me at all. What I have done is point out that the very same guy wanted to keep these people in Iraq and Afghanistan says they are undeserving of citizenship and I am offended by that.

                  Its fair not to expect someone to succeed in college if they don't succeed in high school, but the bill requires that they succeed in college. But- there are many cases where this is not true. Do you believe that students who succeed in college but didn't have a B average in high school should not be eligible for citizenship? This seems to be the disagreement but I still haven't received an explanation for why one would support that.

                  Or I could be reading your post wrong.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 10:43:16 PM
                  Would you be open, Napoleon, to making the aforementioned changes?

                  What are you proposing?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 10:54:59 PM
                  Let me explain.  The original intent of this bill was to allow young undocumented immigrants to either earn citizenship through the military or through the education system alone.  In order to get into college, of course, students must do well in high school, and that's why the requirement was set for high school in order to prepare for the higher expectations of college.  Essentially, it was an idea for promoting early success and long-lasting success.  I need to emphasize that it's not that I'm anti-citizenship, it's that I'm for social insurance, and if you disagree with the method I used to apply that, I respect it and I'm more than willing to hear new ideas that are better and produce results that we can still have confidence in.  That's why it isn't necessarily GPA itself that I consider the underlying issue here, but simply removing the requirement just wasn't what I had hoped for as a constructive response to the proposal.

                  Would you be open, Napoleon, to making the aforementioned changes?

                  What are you proposing?

                  I was proposing moving the standards from high school to college.  I also suggested the creation of an educational/vocational assistance program for applicants, earlier.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 11:07:51 PM
                  I still don't understand. There is a graduation requirement for college. Are you suggesting GPA requirements for college? If so, I would not support that change. Are you suggesting that the college graduation requirement be applied to everyone, essentially taking military service out of the equation entirely? Again, I would be opposed to that.

                  I'm not opposed to encouraging early success. I'm opposed to singling out immigrants and having someone's freshman year of high school determine their future as a member of this society.

                  There is still a high school graduation requirement.

                  I was proposing moving the standards from high school to college.  I also suggested the creation of an educational/vocational assistance program for applicants, earlier.

                  Perhaps that would help if this bill existed in a vacuum, but I'm pretty content with the established programs that all residents can take advantage of. I think this would make the bill more bureaucratic without providing benefits that aren't already available.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 11:14:44 PM
                  The bill requires that applicants "successfully complete" four years of college, but sets no numerical standards.  If you are opposed to that as well, then I hope you at least consider the assistance program.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 18, 2012, 11:32:21 PM
                  I haven't painted those who disagree with me at all. What I have done is point out that the very same guy wanted to keep these people in Iraq and Afghanistan says they are undeserving of citizenship and I am offended by that.

                  Please do not misrepresent my views like that.  I assumed sponsorship of this bill because I believe in it.  I also believe there need to be minimum standards, especially since it's easy to inflate a GPA with classes that don't actually help people contribute.

                  And a 2.7 is not a B average.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 18, 2012, 11:36:51 PM
                  Ideally, the program would provide assistance to those whom, for what ever reason, are not adequately helped by the law itself.  But if this is the route you want to take things, then I suppose I have no control.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Napoleon on November 18, 2012, 11:43:16 PM
                  I haven't painted those who disagree with me at all. What I have done is point out that the very same guy wanted to keep these people in Iraq and Afghanistan says they are undeserving of citizenship and I am offended by that.

                  Please do not misrepresent my views like that.  I assumed sponsorship of this bill because I believe in it.  I also believe there need to be minimum standards, especially since it's easy to inflate a GPA with classes that don't actually help people contribute.

                  And a 2.7 is not a B average.

                  It's closer to a B average than a C average. Would you stare a veteran in the face and tell him he doesn't deserve citizenship because he only earned a 2.5 GPA in high school?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 18, 2012, 11:58:47 PM
                  Can't we just create a separate eligibility for veterans? As in join the armed forces and be eligible for citizenship? This is how it works in the US...


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Speed of Sound on November 19, 2012, 12:23:31 AM
                  Can't we just create a separate eligibility for veterans? As in join the armed forces and be eligible for citizenship? This is how it works in the US...
                  If I'm not mistaken, this is the President's position.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2012, 05:38:02 PM
                  ONCE QUIT PULLING A DAMN ANTONIO, HERE!!!! Only, Nathan, myself and Ben (when both myself and the VP have been gone for five days minimum or other specified and involved circumstnaces detailed in the OSPR are invoked, which they haven't been), MAY ALTER SENATE BUSINESS!!!! >:( >:( >:(



                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2012, 05:40:17 PM
                  Quote
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                      The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                      The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school without any history of expulsions
                      The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                      The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                      The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation


                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                      Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                      Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                      Has abused a student visa
                      Has engaged in persecution, or;


                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.

                  The President has returned the underlying bill with a preferred redraft. The sponsor, Senator Ben, has requested a vote on the above redraft. This is a simple majority vote and will be conducted according to the same rules a final vote (please don't take seven days here. :P). Senators please vote, Aye, Nay or Abstain.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2012, 05:42:17 PM
                  NAY!!! NOT ONLY NO, BUT HELL NO!!!!!!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Franzl on November 19, 2012, 05:46:06 PM
                  AYE


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 19, 2012, 05:47:47 PM
                  Nay

                  This nay also comes with a series of underlying expletives directed at the president.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Niemeyerite on November 19, 2012, 06:32:07 PM
                  Aye.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2012, 06:40:14 PM
                  Quote
                  If the Senate rejects the President's redraft, the original sponsor shall either file a motion to send the original draft of the bill back to the President for his signature or veto, or shall direct the Senate to resume debate on the bill as presented to the President.


                  If this fails, the sponsor can motion to resume debate. Hence why I mentioned the issue with the slot in the PM last night, which seems to have confused some. I feared as much. Anyway we can amend the bill at that point, even if this fails.

                  I would be fine with removing the GPA requirement for the military personell. But I want it maintainined for the College path. There is a tendency for colleges to drop their standards or create junk programs just to look good, or in the case of the athletics, get the good players who aren't necessarily college material and thus rake in the dough in football. Considering the amount of pressure exerted by certain groups on this immigration issue, I would fear a good number of the colleges would start to recieve and likely would submit to such pressure and thus would start to establish or utilize existing programs with low or even no standards to get degress into the hands of some of these illegals who are by no means college material. I don't want institutions of higher learning to become further degraded by yet another influence with motives other than getting people educated.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2012, 06:44:21 PM

                  By your logic, Mr. President, why not just let the entire world just stroll into the country?

                  I thought it was well-understood by all when the bill was proposed that everyone affected by this is already in the country.

                  As effective a point that may be, passed results from amnesty programs, that were likewise only applied to people already here, resulted in even more illegals being present in the country afterwards. That happened after 1986 and again after 1996, precisely because

                  1) Amnesties/Paths to Legal Status are incentives in and of themselves and especially once you are doing it cyclically even whilst they are sold as "permenent fixes".

                  2) The enforcement measures rarely if ever materialize as promised.

                  Applicability to only current illegals, is hardly a solid provision in terms of removing the open borders encouraging incentivization inherent in the concept.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2012, 07:14:30 PM
                  None of that really has anything to do with the actual question. The question is not "What, if any, restrictions should be placed on citizenship applicants related to their high school grade point average?". The question is "Why should restrictions be placed on citizenship applicants related to their high school grade point average?".

                  The problem with the President's viewpoint and even some of the Senators, is that they makes no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. Thus he doesn't account for that fact that you are making a big loophole in the law with the bill itself. Considering that, I don't think asking some conditions be met in return for us generously waiving our immigration laws for a specified group of people, is too much to ask. Some senators refer to this as jumping through hoops. No, jumping through hoops is the ridiculous red tape and bureaucratic nonsense in the legal process that has inflated illegal immigration numbers ( because people who would be legal otherwise, fell through the cracks) and encourage more illegal immigration (if the enforcement is lax on the illegal side, the complexity of the legal process is the perfect "repellent" from doing it the legal way). Asking that a group of people who have already violated our laws to meet a few simple and straightforward standards to demonstrate their good faith and intent to be law abiding and productive citizens if granted such status, is a reasonable demand to make and is both in their interest as well as everyone elses that they meet these requirements.

                  Even beyond all that, is that you have a large number of people who will in fact seek to take advantage and abuse this program. For those who think that having immigration laws or any enforcement of the borders at all is contrary to our heritage, I guess there would be a collective response of "Fantastic". However, for those of who live in real ville where every country has limits including us (and the only way to maintain those limits is to control who enters the country and when, and in turn only way to do that is to make sure you have immigration laws that are taken seriously), that isn't something that kind of behavior isn't something which can be allowed to occur. We have to make sure that this program meets its intended purposes. One of the big reasons there was such a public outcry on the immigration issue is because people have seen gov't not take it seriously and lack faith and trust in the gov't to keep its promises here. Considering the record, there is much justification for that viewpoint.

                  We have these people who didn't follow the legal path to get here, in my opinion any path to legalization, more or less citizenship, would be the perpetuation of a failed policy and strategy of cyclical mass amnesty and thus a mistake that should be avoided. However, this specific subgroup were not competent decision makers when they arrived and thus there is a legimate reason in my opinion to bend a little and create a "conditioned path" only for them. That is what this bill does in return for making sure that certain standards are met. Some of these standards ensure that legal status/citizenship is earned through making contributions to society, and in the process of doing that, helps the perspective citizens get a leg up in society, rather being handed citizenship and then dumped on the outer fringes of society. They can earn there way into a better standard of living at the same time they earn citizenship and we can ensure that the program isn't being corrupted or abused.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Marokai Backbeat on November 19, 2012, 09:27:25 PM
                  Abstain, at least for the moment.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 19, 2012, 10:27:07 PM
                  Abstain


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 19, 2012, 11:10:20 PM
                  I know we should be voting on the merits of the re-draft itself, but there's definitely an elephant in the room here. What we decide with this vote will determine whether we validate or condemn Napoleon's recent attitude. If you ask me, there's no way we should send the message that his recent actions have been okay.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 19, 2012, 11:10:48 PM
                  I know we should be voting on the merits of the re-draft itself, but there's definitely an elephant in the room here. What we decide with this vote will determine whether we validate or condemn Napoleon's recent attitude. If you ask me, there's no way we should send the message that his recent actions have been okay.

                  I agree entirely.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 20, 2012, 07:23:34 PM
                  This is 2-2-3-2



                  Come on people. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on November 21, 2012, 08:59:19 AM
                  Nay


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Oakvale on November 21, 2012, 07:27:21 PM
                  Senator Hagrid's point is persuasive to me. Abstain.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Franzl on November 22, 2012, 09:03:13 AM
                  Also changing my vote to ABSTAIN.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Niemeyerite on November 22, 2012, 04:28:56 PM
                  I'm still an Aye. Not that I think his actions are OK, but I support this.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 23, 2012, 05:03:43 PM
                  So what's the verdict?


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Marokai Backbeat on November 23, 2012, 09:00:19 PM
                  I'll switch my vote to Nay, if possible.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 23, 2012, 09:10:37 PM

                  I haven't the slightest idea. I really don't track who voted what until the end. So until I dive back though and see who switched and what they were before, I am just as clueless as you. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Voting on President's Redraft)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 26, 2012, 08:06:17 PM
                  Vote on President's Redraft:

                  Aye (1): JulioMadrid
                  Nay (4): HagridOfTheDeep, Marokai Blue, NC Yankee and Snowstalker
                  Abstain (4): Averroës Nix, Franzl, Oakvale, and Simfan34

                  Didn't Vote (1): Ben

                  The vote on the redraft has failed to achieve passage. The sponsor may either motion to send the bill back up to the President as is (basically what he already rejected) or motion to resume debate on the bill.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (BEN GTF IN HERE!!!!)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 26, 2012, 08:19:03 PM
                  Send it back!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (BEN GTF IN HERE!!!!)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 26, 2012, 08:41:39 PM
                  If sent back and vetoed, then an override becomes possible.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (BEN GTF IN HERE!!!!)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 26, 2012, 10:07:10 PM
                  :D


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (BEN GTF IN HERE!!!!)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 26, 2012, 10:47:06 PM
                  FTR, I voted Nay.

                  And I motion to send it back to the President, so we can override his veto.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: HagridOfTheDeep on November 27, 2012, 12:57:45 AM
                  Unless Nathan decides to let things play out as they will... Here's hoping.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 27, 2012, 01:00:06 AM
                  I love you people.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on November 28, 2012, 01:01:15 AM
                  x Nathan


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 28, 2012, 12:54:59 PM
                  :D :D Thank you Nathan!  This is truly a great victory.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Simfan34 on November 28, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
                  Hooray for the Vice President!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Speed of Sound on November 28, 2012, 04:12:41 PM
                  Although I have some concerns which I have already expressed about the final text of the bill, it is ultimately a step forward and legislation that is certainly better than nothing. Given the controversial nature of this topic, the Senate has indeed scored a great victory in compromising enough to pass a bill, and the Vice-President has shown great prudence in signing a bill that is both helpful, and was to be law inevitably anyway, thereby speeding up our legislative process.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: Oakvale on November 28, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
                  Nathan for President.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (On the President's Desk)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 28, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
                  Thank you, Mr. Vice President!


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 28, 2012, 09:30:56 PM
                  Quote from: Final Text
                  A BILL

                  To provide a path to citizenship for offsprings of undocumented migrants

                  Be it enacted by the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia assembled.

                  SECTION 1. TITLE

                  This legislation may be cited as the ‘Development, Relief, and Education Act for Alien Minors’ or the ‘DREAM Act.’

                  SECTION 2. PERMANENT RESIDENCY FOR ALIEN MINORS

                  Undocumented migrants below the age of eighteen that arrived to the Republic of Atlasia before the year 2012 will be afforded permanent residency status, provided that the following standards are met:

                  • The undocumented migrant lacks a criminal record or any recorded history of juvenile acts
                  • The undocumented migrant undergoes security and background checks
                  • The undocumented migrant graduates from an Atlasian high school with a minimum GPA of 2.70 and without any history of expulsions
                  • The undocumented migrant demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the Republic of Atlasia
                  • The undocumented migrant serves a period of at least two years in the Atlasian military and, if discharged, receives an honorary discharge, or successfully completes four years at an accredited institution of higher learning
                  • The undocumented migrant lives in the Republic of Atlasia at least five years prior to the enactment of this legislation

                  For the purposes of this act, successful completion of a four year program at an institute of higher learning, shall be defined as have completed a course of study with grades at a satisfactory level to receive certification or degree in said course of study and having done so in a manner within the ethical and moral standards expected of students at the accredited institution.

                  SECTION 3. RESTRICTIONS

                  1.) Citizenship status possibilities will be revoked from any undocumented migrant who has done the following:

                  • Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors
                  • Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting
                  • Has committed marriage fraud
                  • Has abused a student visa
                  • Has engaged in persecution, or;

                  2.) Undocumented migrants that are guilty of the previously mentioned activities may be subject to deportation or detainment.  Penalties shall be determined in a court of law.

                  SECTION 4. IMPLEMENTATION

                  $25 billion will be allocated to the Department of Internal Affairs for implementation of this law.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 28, 2012, 09:47:54 PM
                  If the Senators desire to exempt those veterans from the GPA requirement still, I have legislation already drawn up to do that? If atleast two other Senators say yes, then I will introduce it and add them as co-sponsors to it.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 28, 2012, 10:55:55 PM
                  I am okay with exempting veterans from the GPA requirement.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 28, 2012, 11:58:32 PM
                  Part of me wants to do a classic Gore line from joint session verifying the results after the 2000 elections about needing a Senator, but I don't have time. :P


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: The world will shine with light in our nightmare on November 29, 2012, 12:07:56 AM
                  Part of me wants to do a classic Gore line from joint session verifying the results after the 2000 elections about needing a Senator, but I don't have time. :P

                  Hey, this bill is my baby. :(

                  Or at least, it was before Ben adopted it.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on November 29, 2012, 09:17:29 AM
                  Hey, this bill is my baby. :(

                  Or at least, it was before Ben adopted it.

                  I am ok with exempting veterans; I'll sign on.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on November 29, 2012, 03:23:44 PM
                  I strongly support exempting veterans from the GPA requirement. In fact, I have reservations about the GPA requirement in general.


                  Title: Re: SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)
                  Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 29, 2012, 09:27:23 PM
                  Lets not start that again, Veepy. :P

                  Has the objection been signed by a (second) Senator? ;)