Talk Elections

General Discussion => Constitution and Law => Topic started by: Classic Conservative on June 25, 2015, 04:35:09 PM



Title: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Classic Conservative on June 25, 2015, 04:35:09 PM
Personally, I would change Roe v. Wade, NFIB v. Sebelius, Zivotofsky v. Kerry and Engel v. Vitale.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on June 25, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
Dred Scott v. Sandford
Plessy v. Ferguson
Korematsu v. U.S
Citizens United v. FEC

I think he means decisions that are current law?  Your first three have been overturned.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers on June 26, 2015, 07:17:39 AM
Bush v Gore, Washington DC handgun law overturned, Dred Scott, and Citizens United.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Crumpets on June 26, 2015, 09:52:32 AM
Of ones that haven't been Constitutionally fixed or overturned:

DC v. Heller
Bush v. Gore
Citizens United v. FEC
Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: 100% pro-life no matter what on June 27, 2015, 01:47:03 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: xavier110 on June 27, 2015, 07:27:27 PM
(1) I would definitely overturn a major piece of Federal Indian law. Johnson v. M'Intosh is a legitimately evil decision, enshrining colonial racial hierarchies into our law and providing the foundation for the dispossession of indigenous peoples' lands. At the very least, I would repudiate all of Marshall's ridiculous depictions of indigenous peoples and attempt to restore the tribes'  sovereignty as nations.

(2) This term's Elonis is frankly a ridiculous decision. There are so many First Amendment-related cases that I would like to roll back.

(3) Bye bye Citizens United.

(4) Kelo was dumb, so that too.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Smith on June 27, 2015, 07:57:18 PM
Citizens United
Kelo v New London (and shame on the so-called "liberal" justices and brownie points to the broken clock conservatives for standing up to the plutocratic right)
Dred Scott
Gore v Bush


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on June 28, 2015, 04:32:27 AM
Counting only those whose precedent is still held as valid to this day (so no Dred Scott).

1. Buckley v. Valeo (the FECA should have been upheld in full, and campaign donations not held to represent speech)
2. Bush v. Gore (recounts were not only permissible, but mandatory and no election, federal or national, can be certified without a full and unmistakable count of all votes)
3. Wisconsin v. Yoder (States may require the schooling of any children under 18)
4. NFIB v. Sebelius (the Medicaid expansion is upheld unconditionally)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: TNF on June 28, 2015, 09:45:46 AM
NLRB v. Fansteel Metallurgical Corp.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: pbrower2a on June 29, 2015, 08:54:17 PM
Citizens United
Kelo
Korematsu

Others, especially Dred Scott and Plessy v. Ferguson, have been fully undone.



Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SWE on June 30, 2015, 03:09:30 PM
Dred Scott v. Sandford
Plessy v. Ferguson
Korematsu v. U.S
Citizens United v. FEC

I think he means decisions that are current law?  Your first three have been overturned.
Korematsu was never overturned


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on July 01, 2015, 09:09:14 PM
Tough to limit it to 4.

Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. 386 (1798) - Ruled Constitutional prohibition on Ex Post Facto laws doesn't apply to civil Ex Post Facto laws.

Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942) - Ruled that a non-commercial, intrastate activity is somehow commerce among the States.
 
Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944) - Ruled that American citizens can be thrown into concentration camps without due process.

Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964) - Ruled that even though the Constitution does not address State legislative districts and even though the Senate is not apportioned by population, for some reason State legislative districts must only be based on population.

If I could go 5, I'd definitely overturn:
Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) - Ruled that the government can use eminent domain to steal land from one private party and then give it to another private party.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Frodo on July 03, 2015, 12:01:12 PM
-Planned Parenthood vs. Casey (I would have preferred Roe vs. Wade to be overturned in its entirety as opposed to being merely eroded over time to the point the original decision is now pretty much a dead letter throughout much of the Union -the better to inspire an instant backlash and revive the feminist movement)

-Dred Scott vs. Sanford

-Plessy vs. Ferguson

-Johnson vs. M'Intosh


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: politicallefty on July 03, 2015, 12:16:16 PM

That may be true, but it doesn't really apply today. (And I say that as someone who believes that Korematsu was the absolute worst decision ever handed down by the Supreme Court.)

As for my answers (in terms of cases that still apply):
-Buckley v. Valeo
-Kelo v. City of New London
-Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad
-FCC v. Pacifica Foundation


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on July 03, 2015, 02:40:51 PM
Schenk v. US  (1919) - decision upholding the prosecution of anti-draft protestors that lives on in such phrases as "clear and present danger" and "shouting fire in a crowded theater."

Wickard v. Filburn (1942) - "interstate commerce" as an unrestricted license to limit and direct the economic activity of individuals.

Roe v Wade & Doe v Bolton (1973) - both released on the same day, the second extending the application of the first, so I'm treating them as one.

Employment Division v. Smith  (1990) - decision broke the presumption held for several decades prior that the 1st Amendment protected free exercise of religion against laws of general applicability.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on July 09, 2015, 02:04:44 AM
Schenk v. US  (1919) - decision upholding the prosecution of anti-draft protestors that lives on in such phrases as "clear and present danger" and "shouting fire in a crowded theater."

Wickard v. Filburn (1942) - "interstate commerce" as an unrestricted license to limit and direct the economic activity of individuals.

Roe v Wade & Doe v Bolton (1973) - both released on the same day, the second extending the application of the first, so I'm treating them as one.

Employment Division v. Smith  (1990) - decision broke the presumption held for several decades prior that the 1st Amendment protected free exercise of religion against laws of general applicability.

Roe is on our side(pro-life side) now too.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Pandaguineapig on July 09, 2015, 09:49:08 PM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Slander and/or Libel on July 10, 2015, 06:22:32 AM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount

If the recount had been allowed to continue, it wouldn't have cast a pall over the whole process. I think there's a credible argument to be made that Bush v. Gore, while not being used as precedent, helped to contribute materially to cynicism over our election processes.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Pandaguineapig on July 10, 2015, 09:15:37 AM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount

If the recount had been allowed to continue, it wouldn't have cast a pall over the whole process. I think there's a credible argument to be made that Bush v. Gore, while not being used as precedent, helped to contribute materially to cynicism over our election processes.
But the same could have been said had the decision been flipped and gore won after endless recounts


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Vega on July 10, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Korematsu v. United States
Buckley v. Valeo (the part of it saying money in politics is free speech)
McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission
Citizens United v. FEC


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Slander and/or Libel on July 10, 2015, 09:25:29 AM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount

If the recount had been allowed to continue, it wouldn't have cast a pall over the whole process. I think there's a credible argument to be made that Bush v. Gore, while not being used as precedent, helped to contribute materially to cynicism over our election processes.
But the same could have been said had the decision been flipped and gore won after endless recounts

In the sense that at least one recount would have increased the fidelity of the results, no you couldn't.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 10, 2015, 12:12:47 PM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount

If the recount had been allowed to continue, it wouldn't have cast a pall over the whole process. I think there's a credible argument to be made that Bush v. Gore, while not being used as precedent, helped to contribute materially to cynicism over our election processes.
But the same could have been said had the decision been flipped and gore won after endless recounts

In the sense that at least one recount would have increased the fidelity of the results, no you couldn't.
Maybe if Gore had asked for a statewide recount instead of selective recounts in counties where he thought it would help him, it would increased the perceived fidelity of the results. Both sides contributed to electoral cynicism in 2000.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Slander and/or Libel on July 10, 2015, 12:19:49 PM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount

If the recount had been allowed to continue, it wouldn't have cast a pall over the whole process. I think there's a credible argument to be made that Bush v. Gore, while not being used as precedent, helped to contribute materially to cynicism over our election processes.
But the same could have been said had the decision been flipped and gore won after endless recounts

In the sense that at least one recount would have increased the fidelity of the results, no you couldn't.
Maybe if Gore had asked for a statewide recount instead of selective recounts in counties where he thought it would help him, it would increased the perceived fidelity of the results. Both sides contributed to electoral cynicism in 2000.

Could the court have ordered a statewide recount?


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 10, 2015, 12:21:11 PM
Even though it decided an election i don't see why many would want to use Bush v. Gore as one of the 4 seeing as it isn't being used as precedent and nobody knows if Gore would have won the recount

If the recount had been allowed to continue, it wouldn't have cast a pall over the whole process. I think there's a credible argument to be made that Bush v. Gore, while not being used as precedent, helped to contribute materially to cynicism over our election processes.
But the same could have been said had the decision been flipped and gore won after endless recounts

In the sense that at least one recount would have increased the fidelity of the results, no you couldn't.
Maybe if Gore had asked for a statewide recount instead of selective recounts in counties where he thought it would help him, it would increased the perceived fidelity of the results. Both sides contributed to electoral cynicism in 2000.

The SCOTUS was free to order a statewide recount, if it saw fit. The SC's rulings have never been constrained by what the parts were pleading for.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Crumpets on July 10, 2015, 03:18:34 PM
Can someone explain to me the massive dislike of Kelo v New London? I get that if you have a massive distrust in corporate entities, it seems like a horrible path to go down. But wouldn't that distrust lead to opposing basically any private contracting from the federal government? Apologies for my ignorance on the case.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on July 10, 2015, 07:51:22 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on July 11, 2015, 12:36:06 AM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

I'm generally not a fan of standardized tests for employment, but I can imagine an employer trying to comply with both Griggs v Duke Power and Ricci v DeStefano at the same time must be a nightmare.  Seems like if you want to hire people in any field you need both an expert in anti-discrimination law and a statistician to measure disparate impact and effectiveness of your employment practices.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on July 11, 2015, 09:14:57 AM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

I'm generally not a fan of standardized tests for employment, but I can imagine an employer trying to comply with both Griggs v Duke Power and Ricci v DeStefano at the same time must be a nightmare.  Seems like if you want to hire people in any field you need both an expert in anti-discrimination law and a statistician to measure disparate impact and effectiveness of your employment practices.

If you can require an irrelevant BA for a job, then I dont see a problem with giving a test to measure similar skills. If a company found it to be useful, I think they should have those tests at their arsenal.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on July 12, 2015, 03:16:23 AM
Really? Nobody's mentioned Gregg v. Georgia yet?


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on July 12, 2015, 08:54:22 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on July 12, 2015, 08:59:15 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

I'm generally not a fan of standardized tests for employment, but I can imagine an employer trying to comply with both Griggs v Duke Power and Ricci v DeStefano at the same time must be a nightmare.  Seems like if you want to hire people in any field you need both an expert in anti-discrimination law and a statistician to measure disparate impact and effectiveness of your employment practices.

If you can require an irrelevant BA for a job, then I dont see a problem with giving a test to measure similar skills. If a company found it to be useful, I think they should have those tests at their arsenal.

An interesting corollary is what if the Court had instead ruled that "Where did you go to school?" was illegal class discrimination?  I wonder the world would be like today?


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on July 12, 2015, 11:51:57 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 13, 2015, 12:47:03 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....
In the 1950s it was not clear that Communism would so utterly fail in providing for the material needs of the people. As a result we turned to religion as a distinction. Once it became reasonably clear we wouldn't lose the Cold War economically, that impetus faded and would have regardless of the school prayer decision.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on July 13, 2015, 10:29:32 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....
In the 1950s it was not clear that Communism would so utterly fail in providing for the material needs of the people. As a result we turned to religion as a distinction. Once it became reasonably clear we wouldn't lose the Cold War economically, that impetus faded and would have regardless of the school prayer decision.

Good point.  It just seems like that court decision helped accelerate the fading away though.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on July 15, 2015, 07:57:58 PM
Can someone explain to me the massive dislike of Kelo v New London? I get that if you have a massive distrust in corporate entities, it seems like a horrible path to go down. But wouldn't that distrust lead to opposing basically any private contracting from the federal government? Apologies for my ignorance on the case.

Many freedom-lovers like myself see the ownership of private property (including land) as being important for securing liberty and security. You can (almost) do whatever you want in your own home, limited to 4 general categories: 1.) Law + Regulatory Enforcement 2.) Taxation 3.) Eminent Domain 4.) Escheat.

In Kelo, SCOTUS changed the test for category # 3 from public use (requiring the government to have a specific need to control the land) to public purpose (only requiring that the government benefit from the transaction in some way). This means its now OK for the government to take your house or mine or the Synagogue down the street. Family farms. Small Businesses. All the government has to do is show that the "anticipated" revenues from giving the land to Wal-Mart or Pep Boys or Monsanto are higher than if the previous owner stayed. Higher tax revenues from corporations getting whatever land they want "benefits" the public, so our ownership rights are greatly threatened. Eminent Domain isn't as sexy as Free Speech or guns or the death penalty, but it is still a bill of rights issue. And SCOTUS dropped the ball on Kelo.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: 🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸 on July 16, 2015, 12:02:43 PM
A silver lining of Kelo though is that the reaction against it encouraged many states to enact policies restricting eminent domain much more than they would have otherwise.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on July 16, 2015, 08:51:20 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....
In the 1950s it was not clear that Communism would so utterly fail in providing for the material needs of the people. As a result we turned to religion as a distinction. Once it became reasonably clear we wouldn't lose the Cold War economically, that impetus faded and would have regardless of the school prayer decision.

Good point.  It just seems like that court decision helped accelerate the fading away though.

Ehhh, I think the perceived "wholesomeness" of the 1950's is really the peak of a great effort of what I would call cultural gerrymandering that started around 1910 with the Progressive Era.  It's one of the only times in recent history when the media actively downplayed bad news.  I doubt there was really any less illicit activity or any more (sincere) religiosity in that era.  People were willing to ignore a lot more for the sake of projecting a united front.  They were sinners like all others, but they played along for the camera in a way that is no longer necessary. 


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 16, 2015, 10:21:55 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....
In the 1950s it was not clear that Communism would so utterly fail in providing for the material needs of the people. As a result we turned to religion as a distinction. Once it became reasonably clear we wouldn't lose the Cold War economically, that impetus faded and would have regardless of the school prayer decision.

Good point.  It just seems like that court decision helped accelerate the fading away though.

Ehhh, I think the perceived "wholesomeness" of the 1950's is really the peak of a great effort of what I would call cultural gerrymandering that started around 1910 with the Progressive Era.  It's one of the only times in recent history when the media actively downplayed bad news.  I doubt there was really any less illicit activity or any more (sincere) religiosity in that era.  People were willing to ignore a lot more for the sake of projecting a united front.  They were sinners like all others, but they played along for the camera in a way that is no longer necessary. 
Regardless of whether they were sincere or not, as a percentage of population, church attendance and membership peaked in the 1950s. That can make attending a mainline church built in the 1950s depressing if it was built to handle growth that never happened. The local Disciples of Christ congregation is a prime example of that.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on July 16, 2015, 10:38:17 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....
In the 1950s it was not clear that Communism would so utterly fail in providing for the material needs of the people. As a result we turned to religion as a distinction. Once it became reasonably clear we wouldn't lose the Cold War economically, that impetus faded and would have regardless of the school prayer decision.

Good point.  It just seems like that court decision helped accelerate the fading away though.

Ehhh, I think the perceived "wholesomeness" of the 1950's is really the peak of a great effort of what I would call cultural gerrymandering that started around 1910 with the Progressive Era.  It's one of the only times in recent history when the media actively downplayed bad news.  I doubt there was really any less illicit activity or any more (sincere) religiosity in that era.  People were willing to ignore a lot more for the sake of projecting a united front.  They were sinners like all others, but they played along for the camera in a way that is no longer necessary. 
Regardless of whether they were sincere or not, as a percentage of population, church attendance and membership peaked in the 1950s. That can make attending a mainline church built in the 1950s depressing if it was built to handle growth that never happened. The local Disciples of Christ congregation is a prime example of that.

Wow.  I would have thought church attendance peaked much later in much of SC, possibly as late as 2005 in some areas.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 16, 2015, 11:29:31 PM
1. Roe v. Wade (not even close)
2. Clinton v. City of New York (I like the line item veto)
3. Florida v. HHS (Don't like Obamacare)
4. Griggs v. Duke Power Company (I think standardized tests should be allowed for employment consideration, as this could've prevented a lot of the credential inflation we've seen since, fueling the self-inflicted college loan bubble)

In light of what's happened to America since and its incredible secularization, Engel v. Vitale is a very tempting one as well.  I'd also consider Bush v. Gore (way too much partisan divisions happened because of this, even though I'm quite conflicted on the case itself)  and Citizens United (same thing).

While I don't see explicit school prayer as particularly repugnant to the Constitution, I fail to see how society would be meaningfully different today with it still in place.  I say this as a believing Christian who used the public school "moment of silence" to pray to Christ.

Perhaps I am mistaking cause and effect.  Maybe that decision was more reflective of increasing secularism than anything.  I just wax nostalgic for the religiosity and moral conservatism of the 1950's in America and would love to see it come back....that decision seemed like a turning point....
In the 1950s it was not clear that Communism would so utterly fail in providing for the material needs of the people. As a result we turned to religion as a distinction. Once it became reasonably clear we wouldn't lose the Cold War economically, that impetus faded and would have regardless of the school prayer decision.

Good point.  It just seems like that court decision helped accelerate the fading away though.

Ehhh, I think the perceived "wholesomeness" of the 1950's is really the peak of a great effort of what I would call cultural gerrymandering that started around 1910 with the Progressive Era.  It's one of the only times in recent history when the media actively downplayed bad news.  I doubt there was really any less illicit activity or any more (sincere) religiosity in that era.  People were willing to ignore a lot more for the sake of projecting a united front.  They were sinners like all others, but they played along for the camera in a way that is no longer necessary. 
Regardless of whether they were sincere or not, as a percentage of population, church attendance and membership peaked in the 1950s. That can make attending a mainline church built in the 1950s depressing if it was built to handle growth that never happened. The local Disciples of Christ congregation is a prime example of that.

Wow.  I would have thought church attendance peaked much later in much of SC, possibly as late as 2005 in some areas.
Columbia is not the Upstate, and I was referring to national trends in any case.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: politicallefty on July 18, 2015, 11:56:06 AM
Can someone explain to me the massive dislike of Kelo v New London? I get that if you have a massive distrust in corporate entities, it seems like a horrible path to go down. But wouldn't that distrust lead to opposing basically any private contracting from the federal government? Apologies for my ignorance on the case.

This has been argued here in the relatively recent past. Based on my views opposing the majority in Kelo, I would advise you to read Justice O'Connor's dissent (not surprisingly, Justice Thomas' lone dissent is too far out there for me). It's not often that I disagree with the entire liberal-leaning majority (+Kennedy), but I think their interpretation of the Fifth Amendment severely abridged the rights of the people that the Bill of Rights are there to protect.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: freepcrusher on July 18, 2015, 12:22:06 PM
US vs Macdonald (1982)
Bush vs Gore (2000)
PA Redistricting Case in 03 (can't remember name)
Duke vs Griggs Power


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: politicallefty on July 18, 2015, 12:42:25 PM
PA Redistricting Case in 03 (can't remember name)

Vieth v. Jubelirer? I do agree with you, but I'm not sure what the proper constitutional remedy would be. There was no majority opinion in that case, just a plurality with a concurrence from Justice Kennedy. If Justice Kennedy could be convinced of a remedy, it could be possible to end partisan gerrymandering. It was his concurrence in that case that gave me the now-justified optimism in the case to uphold Arizona's redistricting commission.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on July 18, 2015, 03:51:07 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on August 02, 2015, 07:50:37 PM
Roe v Wade (leaving this issue up to the states would've saved millions)
Florida v HHS (obamacare is an unjust law and must die)
National Federation of Business v Sebelius (see above)
Hodges v Obergefall (the courts have no right to overturn the laws of the 37 states who hold to the Biblical definition of marriage. Plus this conflicts with the proscription on the government to interdict itself into theological matters.)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on August 02, 2015, 08:45:34 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Smith on August 05, 2015, 09:19:36 AM
In place the now null and void cases, I add McClesky v Kemp


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on August 05, 2015, 08:26:00 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.

How illegal would you make it?  There's a big difference between premeditated murder charges vs. a $500 fine and mandatory sex ed classes.  Personally, I would be pretty okay with the latter but couldn't stand for the former.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that the penalty for inducing miscarriage under the Mosaic law was only a fine vs. the death penalty for murder.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: 100% pro-life no matter what on August 07, 2015, 06:54:21 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.

How illegal would you make it?  There's a big difference between premeditated murder charges vs. a $500 fine and mandatory sex ed classes.  Personally, I would be pretty okay with the latter but couldn't stand for the former.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that the penalty for inducing miscarriage under the Mosaic law was only a fine vs. the death penalty for murder.

I believe abortion should be first-degree murder


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on August 07, 2015, 10:18:43 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.

How illegal would you make it?  There's a big difference between premeditated murder charges vs. a $500 fine and mandatory sex ed classes.  Personally, I would be pretty okay with the latter but couldn't stand for the former.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that the penalty for inducing miscarriage under the Mosaic law was only a fine vs. the death penalty for murder.

I believe abortion should be first-degree murder

If you're referring to Exodus 21:22, that would be equivalent to manslaughter, not murder.  Intentionally inducing a miscarriage is what we're talking about, which is basically a murder contract between the abortionist and the mother.

As a member of the Reformed tradition, I take Mr. Calvin very seriously when he writes about this.

https://reformedvirginian1689.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/john-calvin-on-abortion/


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on August 08, 2015, 12:10:40 AM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.

How illegal would you make it?  There's a big difference between premeditated murder charges vs. a $500 fine and mandatory sex ed classes.  Personally, I would be pretty okay with the latter but couldn't stand for the former.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that the penalty for inducing miscarriage under the Mosaic law was only a fine vs. the death penalty for murder.

I believe abortion should be first-degree murder

If you're referring to Exodus 21:22, that would be equivalent to manslaughter, not murder.  Intentionally inducing a miscarriage is what we're talking about, which is basically a murder contract between the abortionist and the mother.

As a member of the Reformed tradition, I take Mr. Calvin very seriously when he writes about this.

https://reformedvirginian1689.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/john-calvin-on-abortion/

Well then, it seems like I'm in quite a minority in the abortion is morally wrong but ≠ murder prior to viability camp.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RFayette on August 08, 2015, 02:06:10 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.

How illegal would you make it?  There's a big difference between premeditated murder charges vs. a $500 fine and mandatory sex ed classes.  Personally, I would be pretty okay with the latter but couldn't stand for the former.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that the penalty for inducing miscarriage under the Mosaic law was only a fine vs. the death penalty for murder.

I believe abortion should be first-degree murder

If you're referring to Exodus 21:22, that would be equivalent to manslaughter, not murder.  Intentionally inducing a miscarriage is what we're talking about, which is basically a murder contract between the abortionist and the mother.

As a member of the Reformed tradition, I take Mr. Calvin very seriously when he writes about this.

https://reformedvirginian1689.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/john-calvin-on-abortion/

Well then, it seems like I'm in quite a minority in the abortion is morally wrong but ≠ murder prior to viability camp.

I think a lot of "pro-choicers" would concede that abortion is at least morally questionable if not outright wrong (a lot of liberal but not completely progressive (UMC, PCUSA but not UCC or Unitarians/Universalists) Protestant denominations); Christianity has a very long pro-life tradition dating back to the 1st century (with an excommunication for those obtaining one).

John Calvin (mentioned previously) and Martin Luther were very strongly pro-life as well, though admittedly, conservative Protestants are more vigorously pro-life now than they were in the 1960's and early 1970's when the issue came to the forefront.  

http://evangelicalsforlife.com/?p=54

Nonetheless, you would still be firmly "pro-life" relative to what the law is right now with your viewpoints, given that 2nd trimester abortions are rather easy to obtain in many states.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Skill and Chance on August 09, 2015, 08:59:54 PM
Roe v. Wade

Then, the other 3 don't even matter, because 57 million lives have been saved!

Because there would clearly be no abortion at all if it were illegal?  And even California and New York would ban it if it were still left to the states, as was the default before Roe v. Wade?  I'm sorry, but this is the right wing version of assuming that just passing a law automatically solves the problem for good.

Indeed, but I'd wager the total abortion figure would be lower, and it would get harder to legalize abortion with modern ultrasound images now, so while it's an oversimplification to say 57 million lives would be saved, some would have been saved for sure.

How illegal would you make it?  There's a big difference between premeditated murder charges vs. a $500 fine and mandatory sex ed classes.  Personally, I would be pretty okay with the latter but couldn't stand for the former.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that the penalty for inducing miscarriage under the Mosaic law was only a fine vs. the death penalty for murder.

I believe abortion should be first-degree murder

If you're referring to Exodus 21:22, that would be equivalent to manslaughter, not murder.  Intentionally inducing a miscarriage is what we're talking about, which is basically a murder contract between the abortionist and the mother.

As a member of the Reformed tradition, I take Mr. Calvin very seriously when he writes about this.

https://reformedvirginian1689.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/john-calvin-on-abortion/

Well then, it seems like I'm in quite a minority in the abortion is morally wrong but ≠ murder prior to viability camp.

I think a lot of "pro-choicers" would concede that abortion is at least morally questionable if not outright wrong (a lot of liberal but not completely progressive (UMC, PCUSA but not UCC or Unitarians/Universalists) Protestant denominations); Christianity has a very long pro-life tradition dating back to the 1st century (with an excommunication for those obtaining one).

John Calvin (mentioned previously) and Martin Luther were very strongly pro-life as well, though admittedly, conservative Protestants are more vigorously pro-life now than they were in the 1960's and early 1970's when the issue came to the forefront.  

http://evangelicalsforlife.com/?p=54

Nonetheless, you would still be firmly "pro-life" relative to what the law is right now with your viewpoints, given that 2nd trimester abortions are rather easy to obtain in many states.


Yes, I would say I am neutral prior to viability and 100% pro-life after viability.  I would be happy to see all states institute 12-18 week limits as is the case in most of western Europe, given that viability keeps getting pushed back further.  The strongest pro-choice argument to me is the one you almost never hear: unwanted pregnancy = 13th Amendment slavery.  Still, it's hard to work out exactly when the developing child has rights that would trump bodily autonomy.  For me, it's clearly prior to birth, though. 


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 10, 2015, 07:31:20 AM
I think a lot of "pro-choicers" would concede that abortion is at least morally questionable if not outright wrong (a lot of liberal but not completely progressive (UMC, PCUSA but not UCC or Unitarians/Universalists) Protestant denominations); Christianity has a very long pro-life tradition dating back to the 1st century (with an excommunication for those obtaining one).
A long pro-life tradition, but not a long tradition of human life begins at conception.

http://www.uuworld.org/articles/theological-rationale-abortion (http://www.uuworld.org/articles/theological-rationale-abortion)

Quote from: 'Rev. WIlliam McLennan'
I affirmed in a post(-2004)-election sermon that “I’m a professing Christian among many who, on religious grounds, is pro-choice on abortion and in favor of gay marriage.”

At the talkback after the sermon, a Stanford student asked me to explain my statement that I’m pro-choice on abortion on religious grounds. He could understand how I might be pro-choice on pragmatic grounds, or on the basis of a political philosophy that we shouldn’t legislate what other people can do in their private sexual lives. But he’d certainly never heard anyone defend a pro-choice position on explicitly religious grounds.

[...]

Yet fetus as “person” or “human being” has never been a settled question within Christianity or Judaism. There are large segments of the Judeo-Christian world that, historically and currently, see the embryo or fetus as potential human life, but not as fully human until birth or until some stage in fetal development well past conception.

[...]

There’s nothing explicitly said in the Bible about induced abortion. Zero. The Jewish position begins with Exodus 21:22: “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.” So, only a fine; no punishment for homicide. On the basis of this passage, the rabbis argued in the Talmud that a fetus is not considered adam (human) and has no legal standing as a person. Killing a fetus is not murder and it is not treated that way. The mainstream Jewish position historically and today is that human life or personhood begins at birth, when we take our first breath. There are a number of biblical passages that have been cited by rabbis over the years as connecting the breath and human life, starting with the creation story in Genesis 2:7: “The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.”

[...]

For most of the history of the Catholic Church, one did not become a human being or a person until well after conception. Saint Augustine in the fourth century adopted the Aristotelian belief that the human soul didn’t enter the fetus until forty to ninety days after conception. In roughly the same era Saint Jerome emphasized human shape: “The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs.” The Apostolic Constitutions of the late fourth century allowed abortion if it was done both before the human soul entered and before the fetus was of human shape. Saint Thomas Aquinas of the thirteenth century followed Augustine in not considering the abortion of a non-ensouled fetus to be murder. Pope Innocent III, earlier in the same century as Aquinas, emphasized that the soul enters the body at the time of quickening—when a prospective mother first feels movement of the fetus. When Pope Gregory XIV affirmed the quickening test for ensoulment in 1591, he set the time for it as 116 days into pregnancy, or the sixteenth week. The great reversal came with Pope Pius IX in 1869. He assumed ensoulment at conception, and by 1917 church canon law had been revised, dropping the prior distinction it had upheld between “animated” and “inanimated” fetuses. Pius’s position has been maintained by the Roman Catholic Church ever since.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on August 14, 2015, 07:43:43 PM
Roe v. Wade
Plessy v. Ferguson
Obergefell v. Hodges
Wallace v. Jaffree


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: 100% pro-life no matter what on September 02, 2015, 09:03:34 PM
OK, I've thought this out:

1. Roe v. Wade (do I really even need to say more)
2. NFIB v. Sebelius (saying that you can be forced to buy anything is scary)
3. Obergefell v. Hodges (killed federalism and was a perfect example of judicial activism and overstepping)
4. The case in the 1910s after Wilson passed income tax (yes, I think income tax is unconstitutional)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 02, 2015, 09:26:44 PM
4. The case in the 1910s after Wilson passed income tax (yes, I think income tax is unconstitutional)
It's a common misconception that the income tax was ever ruled unconstitutional. What happened was that taxes on certain types of income were ruled a direct tax that would require a cumbersome apportionment among the States. Even if one accepts the specious argument that certain States did not actually ratify any income tax amendment and don't count the ratifications of Kentucky, Ohio, thirty-nine did, more than enough even with the addition of two additional States since then.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Intell on September 19, 2015, 07:50:01 AM
Roe v Wade
Bush vs Gore
Citizens United vs FEC
Wisconsin vs Yoder


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: / on September 19, 2015, 10:29:43 AM
Bush v Gore
Citizens United v FEC
Dred Scott v Sandford
Plessy v Ferguson


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Figueira on September 19, 2015, 01:31:05 PM
Roe v Wade (leaving this issue up to the states would've saved millions)
Florida v HHS (obamacare is an unjust law and must die)
National Federation of Business v Sebelius (see above)
Hodges v Obergefall (the courts have no right to overturn the laws of the 37 states who hold to the Biblical definition of marriage. Plus this conflicts with the proscription on the government to interdict itself into theological matters.)

Roe v. Wade
Plessy v. Ferguson
Obergefell v. Hodges
Wallace v. Jaffree

OK, I've thought this out:

1. Roe v. Wade (do I really even need to say more)
2. NFIB v. Sebelius (saying that you can be forced to buy anything is scary)
3. Obergefell v. Hodges (killed federalism and was a perfect example of judicial activism and overstepping)
4. The case in the 1910s after Wilson passed income tax (yes, I think income tax is unconstitutional)

You're all horrible, bigoted people.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on September 21, 2015, 12:06:58 AM
Roe v Wade (leaving this issue up to the states would've saved millions)
Florida v HHS (obamacare is an unjust law and must die)
National Federation of Business v Sebelius (see above)
Hodges v Obergefall (the courts have no right to overturn the laws of the 37 states who hold to the Biblical definition of marriage. Plus this conflicts with the proscription on the government to interdict itself into theological matters.)

Roe v. Wade
Plessy v. Ferguson
Obergefell v. Hodges
Wallace v. Jaffree

OK, I've thought this out:

1. Roe v. Wade (do I really even need to say more)
2. NFIB v. Sebelius (saying that you can be forced to buy anything is scary)
3. Obergefell v. Hodges (killed federalism and was a perfect example of judicial activism and overstepping)
4. The case in the 1910s after Wilson passed income tax (yes, I think income tax is unconstitutional)

You're all horrible, bigoted people.

Dude, get to know someone before you resort to flamethrowing based on political views.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Figueira on September 21, 2015, 02:07:39 AM
OK. There have been other SC decisions dealing with states' rights. Why would you pick that one if you're not a bigot?

And I've read enough of your posts to back up my earlier statement. Excuse my emotional reaction to your bigotry considering that I have gay friends and relatives and I live in an area that has mostly moved past that nonsense.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on September 21, 2015, 07:25:07 PM
OK. There have been other SC decisions dealing with states' rights. Why would you pick that one if you're not a bigot?

And I've read enough of your posts to back up my earlier statement. Excuse my emotional reaction to your bigotry considering that I have gay friends and relatives and I live in an area that has mostly moved past that nonsense.

I have gay friends too. I've treated them with nothing but the utmost respect. Even when I've declared simply what the Bible says about the subject. So no, I'm not a bigot. I back what I say because the decision by the court was on an issue not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Notice I also mentioned Row v Wade (which is also a states rights issue) which the court got wrong.

Now back to the marriage rulings. Most of the states (including mine) have laws which define marriage as one man and one woman. It was when the courts (and not the people or their representatives) stuck their crooked and evil fingers that it got ugly.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on September 21, 2015, 08:57:59 PM
OK. There have been other SC decisions dealing with states' rights. Why would you pick that one if you're not a bigot?

And I've read enough of your posts to back up my earlier statement. Excuse my emotional reaction to your bigotry considering that I have gay friends and relatives and I live in an area that has mostly moved past that nonsense.

I have gay friends too. I've treated them with nothing but the utmost respect. Even when I've declared simply what the Bible says about the subject. So no, I'm not a bigot. I back what I say because the decision by the court was on an issue not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Notice I also mentioned Row v Wade (which is also a states rights issue) which the court got wrong.

Now back to the marriage rulings. Most of the states (including mine) have laws which define marriage as one man and one woman. It was when the courts (and not the people or their representatives) stuck their crooked and evil fingers that it got ugly.

((you can make literally the exact same argument against loving v virginia. it's a bad argument.))


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on September 22, 2015, 11:59:49 AM
OK. There have been other SC decisions dealing with states' rights. Why would you pick that one if you're not a bigot?

And I've read enough of your posts to back up my earlier statement. Excuse my emotional reaction to your bigotry considering that I have gay friends and relatives and I live in an area that has mostly moved past that nonsense.

I have gay friends too. I've treated them with nothing but the utmost respect. Even when I've declared simply what the Bible says about the subject. So no, I'm not a bigot. I back what I say because the decision by the court was on an issue not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Notice I also mentioned Row v Wade (which is also a states rights issue) which the court got wrong.

Now back to the marriage rulings. Most of the states (including mine) have laws which define marriage as one man and one woman. It was when the courts (and not the people or their representatives) stuck their crooked and evil fingers that it got ugly.

You do realize public opinion was ahead of the courts on this issue, yes? And in any event, if a "majority" (scare quotes very much necessary) is infringing on the constitutional rights of a minority group, the courts can and should step in.

You can't allow basic constitutional equality to be up for a vote. We have checks and balances in our government for a reason.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on September 22, 2015, 05:43:15 PM
OK. There have been other SC decisions dealing with states' rights. Why would you pick that one if you're not a bigot?

And I've read enough of your posts to back up my earlier statement. Excuse my emotional reaction to your bigotry considering that I have gay friends and relatives and I live in an area that has mostly moved past that nonsense.

I have gay friends too. I've treated them with nothing but the utmost respect. Even when I've declared simply what the Bible says about the subject. So no, I'm not a bigot. I back what I say because the decision by the court was on an issue not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Notice I also mentioned Row v Wade (which is also a states rights issue) which the court got wrong.

Now back to the marriage rulings. Most of the states (including mine) have laws which define marriage as one man and one woman. It was when the courts (and not the people or their representatives) stuck their crooked and evil fingers that it got ugly.

You do realize public opinion was ahead of the courts on this issue, yes? And in any event, if a "majority" (scare quotes very much necessary) is infringing on the constitutional rights of a minority group, the courts can and should step in.

You can't allow basic constitutional equality to be up for a vote. We have checks and balances in our government for a reason.

I firmly believe in those checks and balances. 37 states and the people have had their just laws overturned by Anthony Kennedy of all people. The 14th amendment cannot be made to apply to grant special rights to a class of individual that is not a God given/intrinsic difference. Being gay is a choice and not an intrinsic difference.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SteveRogers on September 22, 2015, 06:26:16 PM
Being gay is a choice and not an intrinsic difference.

[Citation Needed]

Anyway,

Korematsu v. U.S.
Hans v. Louisiana
California Democratic Party v. Jones
Shelby County v. Holder

(If I'm understanding this right, Dredd Scott and Plessy are off the table because they're no longer good law. So the question is not, "what case would we change if we could go back in time and alter the outcome," right?)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Slander and/or Libel on September 23, 2015, 06:34:48 AM
Being gay is a choice and not an intrinsic difference.

Can you tell us the story of when you chose to be straight?


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Figueira on September 23, 2015, 03:07:27 PM
JCL, I hope you realize that the Bible has no relevance to US law.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on September 23, 2015, 04:33:07 PM

Hans v. Louisiana
California Democratic Party v. Jones

Interesting, unusual choices.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SteveRogers on September 23, 2015, 11:25:55 PM

Hans v. Louisiana
California Democratic Party v. Jones

Interesting, unusual choices.

Hans v. Louisiana because I think the history of the 11th amendment and the whole concept of state sovereign immunity is silly to begin with, and Hans set off a line of cases that expanded sovereign immunity in a way that makes nonsense of the text of the 11th amendment.

California Democratic Party v. Jones because... ok I'll admit, I couldn't think of another landmark case off the top of my head, so I went with a wonky topic that I recently came across in some research I'm doing. But I do think that in that case the Court overstepped its bounds in limiting states' ability to experiment with different electoral systems, and the ruling forces states to give greater recognition and special protection to political parties than I'm generally comfortable with.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Blair on September 24, 2015, 05:36:21 PM
Being gay is a choice and not an intrinsic difference.

I bet your gay friends find that really convincing


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: libertpaulian on September 25, 2015, 03:22:58 PM
Roe v. Wade, NFIB v. Sebelius, Fernandez v. Caifornia, Gonzalez v. Raich


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on September 25, 2015, 03:48:41 PM
Hans v. Louisiana because I think the history of the 11th amendment and the whole concept of state sovereign immunity is silly to begin with, and Hans set off a line of cases that expanded sovereign immunity in a way that makes nonsense of the text of the 11th amendment.


My Fed Courts professor had the same view. Textually the 11th Amendment just eliminated one of the explicit grants of jurisdiction under Article 3, but now its interpreted as having guaranteed English Sovereign Immunity. Nice reference.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on September 26, 2015, 07:32:35 AM
citizens united v. f.e.c.
nazi party of america v. skokie
gregg v. georgia
burwell v. hobby lobby


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 26, 2015, 07:08:01 PM
I surprised as I didn't think you'd be in favor of allowing mandatory capital punishment for certain crimes. ;)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on September 26, 2015, 07:22:24 PM
I surprised as I didn't think you'd be in favor of allowing mandatory capital punishment for certain crimes. ;)

heh


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 26, 2015, 09:13:37 PM
Just pointing out there are cases that could be changed in multiple ways, thus making a simple listing of cases not the best way to answer the OP.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: JackV982 on October 04, 2015, 12:20:24 AM
I would want to change Roe vs Wade, Gregg vs Georgia, Citizens United vs FEC, and Johnson vs M'Intosh


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 28, 2015, 11:54:54 PM
JCL, I hope you realize that the Bible has no relevance to US law.

The Bible is the most influential book in the forming of the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. So it's relevance on American jurisprudence should be self evident.

Being gay is a choice and not an intrinsic difference.

I bet your gay friends find that really convincing

Which part?


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on October 29, 2015, 11:08:38 AM
The Bible is the most influential book in the forming of the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. So it's relevance on American jurisprudence should be self evident.

Um. That's not right.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Illiniwek on October 29, 2015, 02:40:02 PM
By far, Roe vs Wade, Gregg vs Georgia, Citizens United vs FEC, Bush vs Gore.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Sumner 1868 on October 29, 2015, 11:16:07 PM
1. Dred Scott v. Sanford
2. Korematsu v. United States
3. Scheneck v. United States
4. Bush v. Gore


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Starpaul20 on October 30, 2015, 10:03:07 AM
Citizens United v. FEC
Korematsu v. United States
Bush v. Gore
Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on November 02, 2015, 12:34:34 AM
The Bible is the most influential book in the forming of the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. So it's relevance on American jurisprudence should be self evident.

Um. That's not right.

Not entirely. But the general idea that rights come from God and exist independent of government was a bedrock principle for the founders. We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights which the government may never take away.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Bojack Horseman on January 13, 2016, 11:51:32 AM
Planned Parenthood V. Casey, Hobby Lobby, EGUSD V. Newdow, and Miller V. Alabama (to say that all juvenile life sentences are unconstitutional per 8th Amendment, not just automatic ones)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on January 13, 2016, 04:28:16 PM
Roe v. Wade
Planned Parenthood v. Casey
Korematsu v. United States
Wallace v. Jaffree

Although I would be inclined to mention Dred Scott, Plessy, or another civil rights case, I chose not to because the Supreme Court eventually overturned those in a number of subsequent decisions (Brown, Morgan, Boynton, etc.) 


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: tschandler on January 24, 2016, 10:08:02 PM
Wickard vs Filburn
Clinton vs City of New York
NFIB vs Sebelius
Heath vs Alabama

No Roe you ask?  Unlike most right of center people I am generally comfortable with the status quo in abortion law.  Birth Control should be over the counter.  The Feds should never expect the taxpayer to fund abortions either.  But bans/regulations would only force certain activity underground/into black markets.   Abortion on demand should be legally available on non-viable fetuses.   Past the point of viability abortion should only be available to save the life of the mother.   


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Young Conservative on January 27, 2016, 11:19:27 PM
1. Roe VS Wade
2. Any case that allowed slavery and/or dealing with the continuation of segregation or racist practices

3.NFIB VS. Sebellius
4.King VS Burwell
 5. Oberfell VS. Hodges
All of these are incredibly important to me, but the first two deal with immediate dehumanization so they are marked as such.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 29, 2016, 09:09:41 PM
1. Roe VS Wade
2. Any case that allowed slavery and/or dealing with the continuation of segregation or racist practices

3.NFIB VS. Sebellius
4.King VS Burwell
 5. Oberfell VS. Hodges
All of these are incredibly important to me, but the first two deal with immediate dehumanization so they are marked as such.

You are drawing a huge distinction between Loving v. Virginia and Obergefell v. Hodges.  Can you elaborate on why?  To me, they are basically extensions of the same thing.

I can't speak to his reasoning, but I'll point out once again that in my opinion Obergefell v. Hodges isn't the closest SSM parallel to Loving v. Virginia.  Rather Lawrence v. Texas was as the Virginia anti-miscegenation statute did not merely deny recognition to interracial marriage, but criminalized it.  Criminalizing an activity is far more intrusive than simply not giving it support.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook on February 12, 2016, 06:32:57 PM
Was it illegal to own gay porn before then? If gay sex was illegal before Lawrence v. Texas, wouldn't gay porn be too?


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: President Johnson on February 13, 2016, 01:55:32 PM
Citizens United
Hobby Lobby
Holder v. Shelby County
Clinton v. City of New York


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Citizen Hats on February 15, 2016, 12:26:15 AM
I'm surprised that none of our Libertarians brought up Euclid v. Ambler, where the court held that preservation of 'character' was an acceptable reason for the regulation of land use, opening the doorway towards exclusionary zoning. 


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Kingpoleon on February 15, 2016, 02:03:52 AM
I recuse myself due to my lack of judicial experience.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 18, 2016, 04:16:56 AM
1. Roe v. Wade
2. Reynolds v. Simms
3. Wickard v. Filburn
4. NFIB v. Sebelius


There is a special place in hell for Dred Scott v Sanford and Plessy v. Ferguson. The Curtis dissent and Harlan dissent are among my favorites. The first was almost pure boiling anger pouring over and reasonably so.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on February 19, 2016, 08:32:21 AM
From the top of my head:

Gregg v. Georgia
Bush v. Gore
Citizens United
Korematsu v. United States


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: RightBehind on May 19, 2016, 01:13:15 PM
Citizens United
Korematsu
Hobby Lobby
Voting Rights Reversal


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: I’m not Stu on November 21, 2016, 08:50:24 PM
Kelo v. New London (eminent domain is a problem for property rights), Citizens United, King v. Burwell, and Shelby County v. Holder (the VRA's section 5 got overwhelming support from both parties in congress, the court should have exercised judicial restraint and deferred to congress), Korematsu as a fifth decision to reverse, and Buck v. Bell as a sixth. I think Roe v. Wade should be left alone. I am a libertarian-leaning moderate conservative who believes the constitution is a living document. I believe DC v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago should also be left alone.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on December 26, 2016, 12:26:01 PM
1. Bush v. Gore
2. Griswold v. Connecticut (because this would have a domino effect of also overturning Roe and Lawrence)
3. Baker v. Carr
4. Levy v. Louisiana (the worst-written opinion I have ever seen)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on December 26, 2016, 11:10:16 PM
How is Levy v. Louisiana badly written?  I do think it could have been more narrowly written under the circumstances, but that's more a preference in the result than the writing quality.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on December 27, 2016, 08:16:31 PM
My list of all the things that are wrong with the Levy opinion goes on and on and on. Justice Douglas was making a fool of himself and five of his colleagues on the Court. I'm astonished that Chief Justice Warren would allow that "extraordinarily sloppy" opinion to be published as an official opinion of the Court. (That quote is from Prof. Lawrence Lessig, in a Fordham Law Review article published about 20 years ago. That is, Lessig was the one who called the Levy opinion "extraordinarily sloppy.") I could either list everything that's wrong, or I could just describe two or three of the worst things about it.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: brucejoel99 on December 31, 2016, 04:40:57 PM
1. Buckley v. Valeo (+ Citizens United v. FEC)
  • While money is used to finance speech, money isn't speech (plain & simple). Those financial activities shouldn't receive precisely the same constitutional protections as speech itself. After all, campaign funds were used to finance the Watergate burglary. However, the Court's central errors on campaign finance stem from the 1976 Buckley v. Valeo ruling, which denied Congress the right to impose limits on campaign finance, a provision that should be overturned.
2. Jurek v. Texas (*NOT* Gregg v. Georgia)
  • I think the Court came out wrong on the TX death case. At the time, it was assumed that the death penalty would be confined to a very narrow set of cases. But instead it was expanded & gave the prosecutor an advantage in capital cases; experience has shown that the TX statute has played an important role in authorizing so many death sentences in that state.
3. Bush v. Gore
  • Ah, the case (& decision) that turned the White House over to George W. Bush. Basically, the majority decision was misleading (partly b/c of the majority's description of whether the Palm Beach County board changed its rules for handling ballot counting rules) & absent of any coherent rationale supporting the opinion's reliance on the equal protection clause.
4. Crawford v. Marion County Election Board
  • I think this decision on voter ID was correct (from an informational standpoint), but not right, considering the photo-ID requirement is now widely regarded as a means of voter suppression rather than of fraud prevention.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on January 01, 2017, 02:55:45 AM
1. Buckley v. Valeo (+ Citizens United v. FEC)
  • While money is used to finance speech, money isn't speech (plain & simple). Those financial activities shouldn't receive precisely the same constitutional protections as speech itself. After all, campaign funds were used to finance the Watergate burglary. However, the Court's central errors on campaign finance stem from the 1976 Buckley v. Valeo ruling, which denied Congress the right to impose limits on campaign finance, a provision that should be overturned.

If you want to overturn these decisions by adopting a constitutional amendment that says Congress and the states may regulate campaign finances as much as they wish, then I completely agree. If you want to overturn it by having a "litmus test" for appointments to the Supreme Court - whoever gets appointed must be dedicated to overturning these precedents - like Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have said they want, then I am adamantly opposed. The foremost important quality that should be looked for in an appointee to the Court is objectivity. Lord knows there have not been anyone appointed for that reason in too many decades.

Quote
While money is used to finance speech, money isn't speech (plain & simple). Those financial activities shouldn't receive precisely the same constitutional protections as speech itself.

Is that what the Supreme Court said? That money is speech? I have not read all of the Buckley opinion and none of the Citizens United opinion, so I don't know if that is what they said. The excerpt of Buckley that I have read did not say money is speech, it said money is necessary in order to campaign for most elected offices. I suppose a person could get elected to the state House of Representatives in a few states without any campaign funds, the fact plainly is that most people who run for an office need campaign funds in order to have any hope of getting elected. Yard signs are not printed for free; campaign literature is not printed nor mailed out for free. Newspaper ads, radio ads, and TV ads are not free. When a government limits the amount of money spent on campaigns, it limits the amount of campaigning a candidate can do. That doing so abridges the freedom of political speech -- the most important kind of constitutionally-protected speech that there is -- is pretty obvious to me.
Hypothetical: suppose Congress passes a law, that the POTUS signs, prohibiting all of the churches in the country from spending any more than $X on the construction of chapels. One of the effects of the law is obviously going to be that chapels will have a limited capacity; they can't get any bigger than a certain size. If the size of the chapel is limited, then the size of the congregation is limited too. Wouldn't that abridge the free exercise of religion?
Similar hypothetical: suppose Congress passes a law, that the POTUS signs, limiting the amount of money that any journalistic enterprise may use for the funding of investigative journalism. Wouldn't that be a violation of the freedom of the press?

So I understand why the Supreme Court came to the conclusions that it did in Buckley, Citizens United, and other lesser-known precedents in between which struck down laws that restrict campaign expenditures. I understand and I don't have a complaint how the Supreme Court did its job. But again, I do believe it is time to adopt a constitutional amendment that effectively overturns those decisions. Doing so means we will be making an exception to the principle of freedom of speech. We have the prerogative to do that; the Supreme Court was not obligated to make an exception.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: brucejoel99 on January 01, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
1. Buckley v. Valeo (+ Citizens United v. FEC)
  • While money is used to finance speech, money isn't speech (plain & simple). Those financial activities shouldn't receive precisely the same constitutional protections as speech itself. After all, campaign funds were used to finance the Watergate burglary. However, the Court's central errors on campaign finance stem from the 1976 Buckley v. Valeo ruling, which denied Congress the right to impose limits on campaign finance, a provision that should be overturned.

If you want to overturn these decisions by adopting a constitutional amendment that says Congress and the states may regulate campaign finances as much as they wish, then I completely agree. If you want to overturn it by having a "litmus test" for appointments to the Supreme Court - whoever gets appointed must be dedicated to overturning these precedents - like Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have said they want, then I am adamantly opposed. The foremost important quality that should be looked for in an appointee to the Court is objectivity. Lord knows there have not been anyone appointed for that reason in too many decades.

Quote
While money is used to finance speech, money isn't speech (plain & simple). Those financial activities shouldn't receive precisely the same constitutional protections as speech itself.

Is that what the Supreme Court said? That money is speech? I have not read all of the Buckley opinion and none of the Citizens United opinion, so I don't know if that is what they said. The excerpt of Buckley that I have read did not say money is speech, it said money is necessary in order to campaign for most elected offices. I suppose a person could get elected to the state House of Representatives in a few states without any campaign funds, the fact plainly is that most people who run for an office need campaign funds in order to have any hope of getting elected. Yard signs are not printed for free; campaign literature is not printed nor mailed out for free. Newspaper ads, radio ads, and TV ads are not free. When a government limits the amount of money spent on campaigns, it limits the amount of campaigning a candidate can do. That doing so abridges the freedom of political speech -- the most important kind of constitutionally-protected speech that there is -- is pretty obvious to me.
Hypothetical: suppose Congress passes a law, that the POTUS signs, prohibiting all of the churches in the country from spending any more than $X on the construction of chapels. One of the effects of the law is obviously going to be that chapels will have a limited capacity; they can't get any bigger than a certain size. If the size of the chapel is limited, then the size of the congregation is limited too. Wouldn't that abridge the free exercise of religion?
Similar hypothetical: suppose Congress passes a law, that the POTUS signs, limiting the amount of money that any journalistic enterprise may use for the funding of investigative journalism. Wouldn't that be a violation of the freedom of the press?

So I understand why the Supreme Court came to the conclusions that it did in Buckley, Citizens United, and other lesser-known precedents in between which struck down laws that restrict campaign expenditures. I understand and I don't have a complaint how the Supreme Court did its job. But again, I do believe it is time to adopt a constitutional amendment that effectively overturns those decisions. Doing so means we will be making an exception to the principle of freedom of speech. We have the prerogative to do that; the Supreme Court was not obligated to make an exception.

Well, just b/c the Court said it doesn't mean that the Court hasn't made a disastrous wrong turn in its recent string of campaign finance rulings. The voter is now less important than the man who provides money to the candidate; it's really wrong. For ex., the Court's 2014 decision in McCutcheon v. FEC struck down aggregate contribution limits, allowing rich people to make donations to an unlimited number of federal candidates. Chief Justice Roberts started his controlling opinion w/ a characteristically crisp & stirring opening sentence: "There is no right more basic in our democracy than the right to participate in electing our political leaders." But that's misleading. That first sentence there isn't really about what the case is about. The plaintiff, Shaun McCutcheon, an AL businessman, had made contributions to 15 candidates in the 2012 election. He sued so he could give money to 12 more. None of the candidates in the 2nd group was running in AL. McCutcheon wasn't trying to participate in electing his own leaders. The opinion is all about a case where the issue was electing somebody else's representatives. The opinion has the merit of being faithful to the notion that money is speech & that out-of-district money has the same 1st Amendment protection as in-district money. I think that's an incorrect view of the law myself, but I do think there's a consistency between that opinion & what went before. I'm referring, of course, to the Court's (previously mentioned) earlier campaign finance decisions &, notably, to Citizens United v. FEC, which was a giant step in the wrong direction.

Now, you're correct in saying that the right way to go about overturning the disastrous Citizens United decision, as well as the Buckley v. Valeo decision, is through a constitutional amendment in order to reaffirm what's already in the Constitution: that the right to vote belongs to people, & not corporate, nonprofit, or private entities whose money is drowning out votes by actual U.S. citizens.

<side note> Is it necessarily a bad thing to only appoint Supreme Court justices who'd make it a priority to overturn Citizens United & who understand that corruption in politics means more than just quid pro quo AS LONG AS that person is indeed well qualified to sit on the Supreme Court (based on the person's integrity, professional competence, & judicial temperament)?? </side note>


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on January 01, 2017, 10:48:01 PM
Well, here's one fallacy to start with.
Quote
Well, just b/c the Court said it doesn't mean that the Court hasn't made a disastrous wrong turn ...

I'm one of the last people to try to suggest that the Supreme Court is always right to say whatever it says. I have been suspicious of the Court since I was 16 years old. Starting when I was 26 years old I began intensely studying how the Supreme Court interprets many (not all) clauses in the Constitution. I found out that the Court has indeed made many wrong decisions, and has often interpreted certain clauses in ways far beyond what the clauses were intended to mean. But I don't think that Buckley or Citizens United are examples of the Court making an error, not in terms of interpreting the Constitution. And I don't think I implied that whatever the Court says is an accurate interpretation of the Constitution; I was asking a previous poster whether the Court has ever actually said that money is speech.

According to you, because of the Court's
Quote
recent string of campaign finance rulings, [t]he voter is now less important than the man who provides money to the candidate.

How so? Because a big campaign contribution works effectively as a bribe? That's a pretty common accusation that gets made by people who support campaign finance reform: financially helping a candidate is the moral equivalent of bribery. It's a popular, and populist, theory. I don't buy into that theory, and I understand why the Court did not do so either. But your theory is what: that when a wealthy businessman like Shaun McCutcheon contributes millions of dollars to various politicians around the country, he is effectively trying to coerce those politicians into doing legislative things that the politicians who received the money did not want to do, and/or their voters do not want them to do? Mr. McCutcheon was trying to financially help many candidates to campaign -- to try to persuade voters to "vote for me (the candidate)." The people who spend the most money do not always win the elections, and I simply do not see how contributions make the contributors more important to the politicians than the voters.

Not a fallacy:
Quote
Chief Justice Roberts started his controlling opinion w/ a characteristically crisp & stirring opening sentence: "There is no right more basic in our democracy than the right to participate in electing our political leaders." But that's misleading. That first sentence there isn't really about what the case is about.

I agree that CJ Roberts said something that is misleading. Voting is the participation in the electing of leaders. Financially contributing to a campaign is not the same thing as voting. It is the same thing as contributing to political debate, though. Those contributions are not as powerful as voting itself, so it was misleading.

Quote
[A] constitutional amendment [would] reaffirm what's already in the Constitution: that the right to vote belongs to people, & not corporate, nonprofit, or private entities whose money is drowning out votes by actual U.S. citizens.

I disagree that adopting a constitutional amendment to say Congress and the states may regulate campaign financing is to adopt something that is already in the Constitution. It would be a first-time ever exception to the principle of Freedom of Speech. I am ready to adopt that. I also disagree that money is drowning out the votes of actual U.S. citizens; see above.

Quote
<side note> Is it necessarily a bad thing to only appoint Supreme Court justices who'd make it a priority to overturn Citizens United & who understand that corruption in politics means more than just quid pro quo AS LONG AS that person is indeed well qualified to sit on the Supreme Court (based on the person's integrity, professional competence, & judicial temperament)?? </side note>

Yes. People should be appointed to the Supreme Court for reasons exactly like the reason why Herbert Hoover crossed party lines and appointed Benjamin Cardozo to the Supreme Court. The Court is supposed to be made up of the nine most highly objective interpreters of law that can be found anywhere in the country, and I do not think it wise to choose someone because that person thinks Citizens United was a disaster. That person is highly unlikely to be objective.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: brucejoel99 on January 02, 2017, 02:57:41 PM
Well, here's one fallacy to start with.
Quote
Well, just b/c the Court said it doesn't mean that the Court hasn't made a disastrous wrong turn ...

I'm one of the last people to try to suggest that the Supreme Court is always right to say whatever it says. I have been suspicious of the Court since I was 16 years old. Starting when I was 26 years old I began intensely studying how the Supreme Court interprets many (not all) clauses in the Constitution. I found out that the Court has indeed made many wrong decisions, and has often interpreted certain clauses in ways far beyond what the clauses were intended to mean. But I don't think that Buckley or Citizens United are examples of the Court making an error, not in terms of interpreting the Constitution. And I don't think I implied that whatever the Court says is an accurate interpretation of the Constitution; I was asking a previous poster whether the Court has ever actually said that money is speech.

Oh, well then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But to answer the original question: yes; in 2010, the Court's very controversial ruling in Citizens United v. FEC determined that spending by corporations or unions for a political cause is a form of free speech & is therefore protected under the 1st Amendment. While there's a lot of nuance to this complicated issue, the decision can be summarized as follows: Political spending is a form of protected speech under the 1st Amendment, & the gov't. may not keep corporations or unions from spending money to support or denounce individual candidates in elections. While corporations or unions may not give money directly to campaigns, they may seek to persuade the voting public through other means, incl. ads, especially where these ads weren't broadcast. So, Citizens United furthered the legal precedent that, in terms of political spending, corporations = people & money = speech.

Quote
According to you, because of the Court's
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recent string of campaign finance rulings, [t]he voter is now less important than the man who provides money to the candidate.

How so? Because a big campaign contribution works effectively as a bribe? That's a pretty common accusation that gets made by people who support campaign finance reform: financially helping a candidate is the moral equivalent of bribery. It's a popular, and populist, theory. I don't buy into that theory, and I understand why the Court did not do so either. But your theory is what: that when a wealthy businessman like Shaun McCutcheon contributes millions of dollars to various politicians around the country, he is effectively trying to coerce those politicians into doing legislative things that the politicians who received the money did not want to do, and/or their voters do not want them to do? Mr. McCutcheon was trying to financially help many candidates to campaign -- to try to persuade voters to "vote for me (the candidate)." The people who spend the most money do not always win the elections, and I simply do not see how contributions make the contributors more important to the politicians than the voters.

Well, I wouldn't amount to calling the problem legalized bribery, but ultimately, many feel that these decisions made it much easier for the richest Americans to dominate our elections by allowing the super-rich & corporations to effectively influence & manipulate elections.

And under the context of my statement that "the voter is now less important than the man who provides money to the candidate." (McCutcheon v. FEC), I ask you this: who are a legislator's constituents? According to most of us (& to the Oxford American Dictionary) it is "members" of "a body of voters who elect a representative to a legislative body." But the Court wasn't referring to voters, but to donors. According to the Court, McCutcheon is a constituent of every member of Congress, b/c he can afford to buy access & influence from all of them. Most of the voters in his AL congressional district can't. They exercise their influence over just 1 congressman & 2 Senators as most Americans do: by voting. So, under the jurisprudence of the current Court, my statement that "the voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate" stands.

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[A] constitutional amendment [would] reaffirm what's already in the Constitution: that the right to vote belongs to people, & not corporate, nonprofit, or private entities whose money is drowning out votes by actual U.S. citizens.

I disagree that adopting a constitutional amendment to say Congress and the states may regulate campaign financing is to adopt something that is already in the Constitution. It would be a first-time ever exception to the principle of Freedom of Speech. I am ready to adopt that. I also disagree that money is drowning out the votes of actual U.S. citizens; see above.

Well, regardless of whether we agree or not that a constitutional amendment would actually reaffirm what's already in the Constitution, at least we can agree that a new amendment is necessary in order to firmly strike down Citizens United & make it clear in the Constitution that only human beings, not corporate entities or unions, have the right to vote & to contribute to campaigns

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<side note> Is it necessarily a bad thing to only appoint Supreme Court justices who'd make it a priority to overturn Citizens United & who understand that corruption in politics means more than just quid pro quo AS LONG AS that person is indeed well qualified to sit on the Supreme Court (based on the person's integrity, professional competence, & judicial temperament)?? </side note>

Yes. People should be appointed to the Supreme Court for reasons exactly like the reason why Herbert Hoover crossed party lines and appointed Benjamin Cardozo to the Supreme Court. The Court is supposed to be made up of the nine most highly objective interpreters of law that can be found anywhere in the country, and I do not think it wise to choose someone because that person thinks Citizens United was a disaster. That person is highly unlikely to be objective.

Well, again, at least we can agree that judicial nominees ought to be qualified & recognize that the sole function of the courts is to interpret the Constitution


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on January 02, 2017, 06:30:24 PM
We're doing well enough to find some areas of agreement, and we know we're headed to the same destination, even if we're not aiming for that destination for same reasons.
I support amending the Constitution to allow any level of government to regulate campaign financing all the government wants to, with no oversight by courts exercising judicial review in the name of the principle of Freedom of Speech. We know we both want that. I support it because I see something very wrong and gross with how expensive it has become to run for office; because the popular, populist suspicion that politicians are being "bought" by big-money interests - even indirectly through an independent campaign expenditure - is eroding public confidence in our republican form of government.

Adopting this amendment is not my most important priority, but whenever it comes time to add my "two cents" to a debate about this, I will continue saying that I support it.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: brucejoel99 on January 02, 2017, 08:38:42 PM
Well said; agreed


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Cynthia on March 01, 2017, 04:08:35 AM
Citizens United v. FEC
Shelby County v. Holder
Bush v. Gore
Gregg v. Georgia


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SingingAnalyst on May 04, 2017, 04:32:34 PM
Citizens United v. FEC
Shelby County v. Holder
Bush v. Gore
Gregg v. Georgia
^^^ agree w Bush v. Gore. Not sure about Gregg as the crimes the justices reviewed were pretty horrific (at least compared to Furman, handed down 4 yrs earlier). Maybe in place of that, Plessy v. Ferguson. Even though it was rendered moot by Brown, it still remained a stain on the US for 58 years. And, since I have referenced it in contrast with the heroism of the Apollo 13 rescue, Palmer v. Thompson.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: The_Doctor on May 18, 2017, 10:51:39 PM
Not taking into account all decisions that have been overturned or functionally are overturned:

1. Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992). Abortion law that upheld Roe but narrowed the scope; I'd have tossed out Roe entirely and established a right to life.

2. New Kelo v. London (2005). Eminent domain law; Kennedy decided it 5-4. It has never been stricken, as a result. I think eminent domain should be a highly circumscribed power.

3. Helvering v. Davis (1937). This one upheld Social Security, so I'm not too happy about it. It was part of the rulings that set off the Constitution in Exile. I contend this one seriously overstepped the general welfare clause to the breaking point and was a highly political decision. Not that the Court ruled wrong given how it's supposed to operate as a political actor but I would have preferred a different outcome. 


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: darklordoftech on May 26, 2017, 05:59:09 AM
1. Schenck v. United States. The first amendment is worthless if that's the standard for a "clear and present danger."

2. Buck vs. Bell.

3. Plessy vs. Ferguson. Although it would eventually be overturned by Brown v. Board, it allowed segregation to become so deeply ingrained in American culture that the resulting racism still negatively affects America today.

4. Wickard v. Fillburn


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: SteveRogers on May 26, 2017, 02:54:28 PM
Surprised nobody brought up U.S. Term Limits v. Thornton


Probably because that case was obviously rightly decided and even most supporters of congressional term limits recognize that that requires a Constitutional Amendment.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on May 26, 2017, 06:56:58 PM
Surprised nobody brought up U.S. Term Limits v. Thornton


Probably because that case was obviously rightly decided and even most supporters of congressional term limits recognize that that requires a Constitutional Amendment.

:)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: LastMcGovernite on June 07, 2017, 06:26:26 AM
1. Dred Scott vs. Sandford
2. Citizens United vs. FEC
3. Bush vs. Gore
4. Korematsu vs. United States


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: BuckeyeNut on June 07, 2017, 03:30:26 PM
No particular order, but:

Bush v. Gore
McCleskey v. Kemp
Heller v. District of Columbia
Shelby County v. Holder


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: daveosupremo on June 12, 2017, 12:57:02 AM
Helvering v Davis
Wickard v Filburn
NFIB v Sebelius
Chevron v NRDC


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: MarkD on June 19, 2017, 10:51:29 PM
No particular order, but:

Bush v. Gore
McCleskey v. Kemp
Heller v. District of Columbia
Shelby County v. Holder

Lewis Powell told his biographer that if he could change one of his votes in a case, he named McCleskey v. Kemp

I can't think of any reason why the Court's decision in McClesky was wrong. I see a lot of similarity, in legal reasoning, between the decision there and the decision in Washginton v. Davis, 1976 (decided by 7 to 2). The similarity is that, in both cases, the Court does not accept an imperfect generalization about race as proof that a law/policy was adopted with an intention to discriminate on the basis of race. Just like imperfect generalizations -- stereotypes -- are not acceptable excuses for deliberately treating the races differently from one another, imperfect generalizations are also not accepted as proof that a law/policy is racially discriminatory. I call it an imperfect generalization because the Baldus study did not prove that all blacks accused of murder are sentenced to death while no whites are ever sentenced to death; he only proved that, proportionally, blacks are sentenced to death more often than whites. Likewise, in Washington v. Davis, the Court majority did not accept that a statistical disparity between how often blacks who took a certain screening test failed the test compared to how often whites failed the same test as proof, in and of itself, that the test was racially discriminatory.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: #gravelgang #lessiglad on June 20, 2017, 03:40:24 PM
Limiting my responses to cases that still influence policy

Quirin, Youngstown Sheet, and Korematsu. The Court was derelict in setting strict and clear limits on executive power.

Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Co. and Buckley v. Valeo. An expansion of the 14th Amendment so clearly beyond the drafters' intent.

Heller and MacDonald - a strained reading of the text of the second leads to an ideological decision. Mirrors how conservatives contend liberal judges interpret the 14th.

Quill v. North Dakota. Admittedly a niche case, but the lack of clarity around the ability of States to levy sales taxes is surprising and, frankly, an impediment to economic progress. Requiring physical presence in levying taxes, while economic activity increasingly happens online is an outdated model and the failure to provide subsequent clarity results in ham-fisted attempts like Massachusetts'.  (http://www.mass.gov/dor/businesses/help-and-resources/legal-library/directives/directives-by-years/2017-directives/dd-17-1.html)

Amending to add Trinity Lutheran.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Senator-elect Spark on June 24, 2017, 02:21:59 PM
Citizens United
Bush v Gore
Roe v Wade
Griswold v Connecticut


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: IndustrialJustice on January 14, 2018, 01:50:30 PM
Most of the Supreme Court's labor law jurisprudence is reactionary nonsense, but the following three cases are especially odious for narrowing the National Labor Relations Board's remedial authority under Section 10(c) of the NLRA, and, more importantly, effectively castrating labor's nascent right to strike:

NLRB v. Mackay Radio & Telegraph Co., 304 U.S. 333 (1938).

NLRB v. Fansteel Metallurgical Co., 306 U.S. 240 (1939).

NLRB v. Sands Manufacturing Co., 306 U.S. 332 (1939).

The Court's pending Janus decision will be my fourth, but in the meantime I'd throw in Boys Markets, Inc. v. Retail Clerks Union, 398 U.S. 235 (1970), which gutted the Norris–La Guardia Act's anti-injunction mechanism.


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on February 02, 2018, 02:26:10 PM
Excluding rulings that were later overturned:

1. Roe v. Wade (and by extent, Doe v. Bolton): the Dred Scott decision of our time.  It not only denied humanity to the unborn, but ushered in a genocide of children that continues to this day, all for the crime of being "unwanted" or "inconvenient."

2. Korematsu v. United States: The internment of Japanese Americans during WWII (and, to a lesser extent, German and Italian Americans) not only violated the Equal Protection Clause but also the

3. Wallace v. Jaffree: There's no reason why schools should not be allowed to set aside a time for teachers and/or students to have meditation or voluntary prayer, as long as it is not requiring a prayer or sponsoring the recitation of a prayer.

4. Employment Division v. Smith: It's clear that Smith was engaging in a religious practice that could not and should not be abridged under the First Amendment, yet the Court decided to prioritize the War on Drugs instead.  (FTR, I oppose drug legalization, but when there is a clear example of it being used in longstanding religious tradition, such as this case, then I think that there should be exceptions.)


Title: Re: If you could change 4 Supreme Court cases what would you change
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on February 02, 2018, 08:25:28 PM
Excluding rulings that were later overturned:

1. Roe v. Wade (and by extent, Doe v. Bolton): the Dred Scott decision of our time.  It not only denied humanity to the unborn, but ushered in a genocide of children that continues to this day, all for the crime of being "unwanted" or "inconvenient."

Not really.  Abortion law was already in the process of becoming more permissive at the time Roe was being decided. The problem with Roe wasn't so much the result as much as the Court presuming what the ultimate result would be and short-circuiting the legislative process.  I suspect that without Roe, most (and maybe even all) States would have ended up legalizing first trimester abortions, which is when most abortions take place.