Talk Elections

i decided it would be best to create a thread for school uniforms.

i favor uniforms.  they are a good idea.  it does put everyone on an equal playing field and creates an atmosphere more suitable for learning.  im also astounded by some of the clothes kids are wearing.

i can assure you kids that you wont be able to show up for work wearing the clothes you wear to school.  the vast majority of jobs have strict dress codes and/or uniforms, so why shouldnt schools?

I support them for the reasons I stated on Page 5 of the Presidential Voting Thread:

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=3848;start=60

I never saw these conflicts over clothing. At my school, the only kids picked on were the ones who wore that preppy crap.

uniforms are fascist.

I don't want to buy school uniforms because I'd have to actually buy clothes.  I hate preppy clothes and have never set foot in a clothing store {and I never will}.  I get my clothes from walmart, outlet malls, or free from events.

Of course, i'm very unaverage in that respect . . .

almost all jobs have a uniform or a dress code, does that make the police, the army, the fire department, hospitals fascists?

I get most of mine from Charity Shops and discount stores...

The only place where I might approve of School Uniforms is on teacher's bodies.
They have this unfortunate tendency of obscuring the difference between the rich and the not-so-rich and highlighting the difference between those and the really poor. I had ample time to study that effect in India...

Surely wearing own clothes could do that too, the rich would probably tend to wear designer clothes while the poor would wear cheaper clothes.

The rich are in a minority...

Sorry, I mis-read your original post, a bit tired, been working most of the day.

but you choose to work at those places.

Not necessarily, military service is compulsory in some countries.

Uniforms create equality- everyone wears the same regardless of income- and subsidised school uniforms (which in the UK they often are)- are cheaper than buying and changing clothes to be worn throughout term-time. In the UK, uniforms are pretty much the norm rather than the exception, though for a while it was only private school kids, like me, who wore the blazer in the Glasgow area. That is changing- parents in school comittees have voted overwhelmingly to have blazers compulsory in the 3 nearest highschools to my home. It means children are smartly turned out and represent their school. But values can differ between countries I guess.

?!?


?!?!?!


Me too :P  However, that just means we should perhaps enforce the dress code more.  As much as I dislike Abercrombie, I don't think it should be banned at school.


Because we don't need to look professional at school :P

and I consider that fascist as well.

I've never had a job with a dress code, they were all "behind the scenes" deals. but even in jobs were you actually deal with customers, not all have dress codes. Just go into any record store or most video stores.

You ahve dess.-codes at work... butr then again, you CHOOSE your job, right?
I mean, Going into a Garage, repairing a car... with a blazer? Funny pictue, but impractical ;).
Usually, you choose a job because it interests you, and the clothing comes with it.
Now, you HAVE to go to school, you have absolutely NO choice.
So, you are pushed into a school, forced to wear clothes you probably absolutely hate... and spend 8 hours a day in a place you cannot escape and where everbody looks the same?
Also, a dresscode, like companies have it, is no uniform.
Military is an entirely different matter anyway, police and them simply have to be recognizable, and hospitals and such need clothing wich fits the enviroment (going into hospital with red clothing, or a fabric that might easily carry dust and therefore germs would be plain stupid).

Also, I doubt I would have learned better in a more Uniform enviroment at school.. actually, I often MISSED something like colors, and could hardly write exams unless I cauht a place near the window ;).
So, for some, it might make things easier... but I think I would have had a harder time focusing!

Technically, you don't HAVE to go to school, you can get home-schooling if you want.

the real world isnt one big record or video shop.

being well dressed is a big part of professionalism.  would you hire a lawyer or go to a doctor that was dressed like a slob?

if they had a good record.

i currently work at a big tech company.

Well For one i don't favor uniforms. Plus I wear "that preppy crap" but I don't pick on people. No one does at my school. Well i guess because mainly every one wheres preppy stuff.

Forcing people to dress alike so that they may be equal is Marxism at its worst. Even we radical leftists can accept that some people dress nicer than others, and forcing everyone to wear a drab, ugly garment isn't at the forefront of the class struggle.

I for one would take umbrage to wearing uniforms. My high school was a private one, and we had uniforms, but I didn't mind them because they seethed of sexual tension just below the surface. But when I see the compulsory drab raiment donned by some public school children because their classmates are clad in forma pauperis, I can see why they object. So ugly, so pointless.

And please, better red than dead. Spare us of your reviling of those among us who wish to dress nicely. We are not lesser people for exercising that prerogative. I have always dressed expensively, and well, and I shall never see any obligation to the appearances of others.

I went to catholic school for 13 years and I wore a uniform

and I always demand my girlfriends wear catholic schoolgirl uniforms


....see, it did me a world of good

Of the top 500 things that I think should be done to improve public education, this issue is about #219...

I would at least support a dress code. With the stuff kids wear... if somebody wants to come to school looking like a jerk or a pro wrestling reject, then they can go home or be disciplined.

Mine doesn't.

Probably not in Kentucky, a state with a reputation of harassing students and parents who challenge fascist school officials.

Kentucky is the land where kids have no rights.

I know. I read the ACLU report on the Boyd County incident.

I am opposed to school uniforms.

Bandit73--

You should register to vote in the fantasy elections. We have a presidential election coming up in June. Here's the link...

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?board=13;action=display;threadid=2153;start=330

I can't make heads or tails out of what's going on over there.

Any specific questions?

Basically it's a fantasy government. I'm the president, and we have a senate, and a supreme court. We argue, debate, and vote on real issues...obviously we don't have any real power...but it's fun nonetheless. We have a game moderator who presents real issues for the government to have to deal with.

He wants you to join so you can vote for him :)

I mean...

*cough cough erhem cough*

No home schooling in Germany either.

Anyway, back to school uniforms...

Even though the majority of workplaces do require uniforms (yes, Bandit, they do!!! :o ;))... they only do it to look professional.

So that point for school uniforms is invalid, as I fail to see a reason for kids to look professional at school :P

I had to wear a uniform in school.

Should we ask if it included a plaid skirt and if you can post a picture?

:)

ya it had the plaid skirt.

Most worlplaces have a dress code rather than an actual uniform policy.  The jobs that generally require a uniform are those that could be performed by anyone in that uniform, even a robot programmed to do the job.  The jobs that have a dress code are those that requrie actual individuals to do the jobs (ie creative skills and individual thought are useful).

so, rightwingnut, are you saying that firemen, police officers, car mechanics, are doing a job that a 'robot' can perform?

i wear a uniform to work. (and id put my individual thought skills up there with anyone.)

So countries like Finland and Sweden at the present and most European countries during the Cold War were fascists??

School uniforms are good. They work as equalizers. You don't know who is rich or poor in a uniform, because everyone wears the same thing. Uniforms also encourage dicipline. Kids have to wear a uniform every day, so they are going to have to get up earliuer, get in this uniform, dress the correct code, and frankly act more responcible.

Freedom of expression is not in the 1st Ammendment., The 1st Amm. sates the freedom to peaceably assemble, the freedom to petition, the freedom of worship, and the freedom of speech. Freedom of speech gives you the freedom to accuse the government of wrong doings, not wear a shirt covered in curse words.

The usual B.S.

Great argument Bandit.

How can you say that you're conservative and then push for state mandated equalizers?

I refer not to individual thought skills, but rather individual thought duties.

For the most part yes.  I could program a firefighting robot; a robotic mechanic; or a robotic traffic cop, highway patroller, arrest factor, etc.  Detectives are a special case, but they generally have a dress code, not a uniform.

I'm a Conservative because I want to teach kids dicipline with uniforms.

They're not your kids; it's the parents' responsibility to teach the kids discipline.  Imposing values on others through use of the government is exactly the behavior that brands liberals in New England as elitists, by supporting the same process, even with diametrically opposite viewpoints, is still just as liberal-elitist.

The state can do whatever it wants, from a conservative standpoint, unless the Constitution says it can't.  States used to be much more socially conservative and it was constitutional. Besides, they aren't equalizers of outcomes-- a liberal path.

Uniforms are a good idea, although admittedly it would be better if they could be made a little more comfortable.  It reduces classroom distractions as you don't spend the whole time judging people on what they wear.  It saves time, you don't have to worry about what clothes to wear in the morning.  It reduces oppotunity for bullying, you can't be bullied about what you wear.  And it breaks down social boundries, the rich and the poor aren't seperated by how they look.

If it benefits the poor so much, then why is it usually the rich that supports uniforms?

"If it benefits the poor so much, then why is it usually the rich that supports" <insert elitist policy here>?

I spend the whole time at school judging the people on what they wear?


Then pick your clothes out the night before!  ;D


Which is why we should educate kids about morals in school... just in case they didn't pick something up at home ;)

School is a place for learning, not for looking better than your friends

Which is why we should learn that you shouldn't judge people by their outward appearances.

I will admit that uniforms are for the states to decide.

Uniforms are bad, very bad..

Do you actually have an argument against them?

You just seem to keep saying they are bad, but not why or why it is better we wear our own clothes.

Are you telling me that you've never judged someone by what they look like?  And are you telling me that people will always listen to what you teach them, that every kid does what their parents and teachers tell them?

I am in favour of school uniforms. I think that while they do somewhat limit a person's ability to express themselves, they draw attention away from superficial things and put the focus back on learning. That said, I personally hated wearing a school uniform.

No.


[authoritarian ILV]If you teach them from a young age not to judge people by their ouward appearances, they won't.  By a young age, I'm talking 2 or 3.[/authoritarian ILV]

No, every kid does not do that.  However, when you're young, you're like a fresh bock of clay... ready to be molded.  That may be impersonal, but it's the truth (unless of course the 'nature' side of 'nature vs. nurture' is truthful... then I don't know what to think :P).

Personally, I'd hate to wear uniforms because then I couldn't intentionally "dress badly," according to the people who "dress well."  If it cost more than $10, then I don't want it.  I hate clothing stores with a passion, and 90% of the time, I can't even remember what clothes I'm wearing.  Like now, not sure .. . . probably some academic team shirt, {looks down}, ah, yes.

Can the skirts be really really short?  If so, then yes.

Generally, I'm with Harry on the whole issue of dress, I think.  Nothing on me cost more than a few dollars.  I like to look very impoverished and destitute whenever possible, particularly when I'm vacationing in larger third-world cities.  

Uniforms are compulsory in every Hih School in my home city of Melbourne bar three- 1 is a high school based in a University (Swinburne VCE Insttute), 1 is a high school right next to a university and very involved with it (The University High School :D) and 1 is a school for 'problem' students, Kensington High School.

I go to a public high school, that has uniform-and i don't just mean a tshirt and a pair of tracksuit pants.

we have the whole deal-black leather shoes, woolen blazer, black (non-polyester) pants, white shirt, tie, etc etc.

It equalises us all. Some of our tudents are from very wealthy families, some ar from the middle, and alot (47%) are from families where euither they were born overseas or their parents were. Most of these families are poor.

A one-time spending of $350 on a uniform that will last the four years of school is actually cheaper then having to buy new clothes all the time for school. And if you wear the same clothes every day because you can't afford to have a large wardrobe, at least you don't stand out.

Sure, it isn't all that comfortable, but I believe that comfort is relative. Some people like to wear the blazer and shoes. At least it prepares us for the workforce, when we have to wear suits and ties all the time anyway.

There are aruments for 'free' dressing-its vibrant, it livens up the school, it gives people a choice. And whilst all these are valid to a degree, the fact of the matter is that school with uniforms can still be vibrant, sucessful, and lively. My school had the second best academic results in the state, has many sucessful sports teams, many music ensembles, an army cadet corps, an air force cadet wing, and just put on a performance of Les Miserables that was rated as four stars. For a school production, thats damn good.

On the ssue of choice: yes, its's great to choose if you can. But ome people can't. It would be unfair on them, and on such an unimportant issue as uniforms I cannot see why we should try to create division within our schools between the cool people who wear a new pair of jeans every day, and those that wear the same pair for four years.

School uniforms=good and necessary.

Errr, well my school district is one of the highest districts in the nation, consistantly getting getting in the top 3 in the state in standardized test scores... which is saying a lot, given that Minnesota is probably in the top 3 in the nation for education overall.

We don't have uniforms.

Therefore, your academics argument is faulty :D

you are only top 3, we're top 2.

And the top school, and third school, both have uniforms too.

In fact, 9 of the top 10 do-Uni High comes in at 5th.

Its your white face that designates you as rich.. though you might get better deals if you look *cheap*.  Which I do - if it costs more than $2, its too much.  I know some good thrift stores.  

Well I live in the best school district in the state. . . . .oh wait, I forgot, that means nothing.

At least Mississippi has better schools than DC!

Probably better than Kentucky too.

alas.  yes, or as they say in Jamaica, "you're a poorist, man"  (poor tourist)  yeah, looking cheap helps in negotiations.  ("Higgling" in Jamaica)

Actually, it was just a guess.. but we are up there somewhere (very near the top).  Besides, you're comparing apples to oranges... I bet here 9/10 top schools don't have uniforms... maybe even 10/10.

I thought you said no schools there did though, some in Australia do and some don't.

Many in America these days do. In the '70s and '80s it was almost unheard of for an American public school to require uniforms, but now it's common.