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General Discussion => Religion & Philosophy => Topic started by: © tweed on February 11, 2008, 03:38:51 PM



Title: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: © tweed on February 11, 2008, 03:38:51 PM
are Mormons Christians?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 11, 2008, 04:47:26 PM
I've been going to an interdenominational church for 15 years, and I find questions like this very bizarre.

1) What are you asking, exactly?
2) Who is your audience?
3) What is your motive in asking?
4) Are you considering becoming a Mormon?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on February 11, 2008, 04:48:13 PM
It's a strange question, but yes.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Gabu on February 11, 2008, 06:49:11 PM
Does it really matter?  I have a hard time believing that telling Mormons that they aren't Christian will convince them to give up their faith.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Gabu on February 11, 2008, 07:12:13 PM
Does it really matter?  I have a hard time believing that telling Mormons that they aren't Christian will convince them to give up their faith.

Gabu, people that say Mormons aren't Christians are using an age old tactic of anti-Mormons.  They say the Church doesn't worship Christ and that they're the only ones who do.  This sort of attack on the Church is as old as the Church itself.

I know that.  And what I'm saying is that the reason people say that is either for one of two reasons:

1. To make themselves feel better, or

2. To attempt to convert Mormons to another branch of Christianity.

Those who are doing it for reason #1 are just pathetic and ought to be ignored, and those doing it for reason #2 are actively hurting their cause by immediately putting Mormons on the defensive the moment they open their mouth.  That's what I'm saying.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: © tweed on February 11, 2008, 07:19:52 PM
ftr, I'm not trying to display any hatred against LDSers.  I just find this to be an interesting debate (if, pointless.)


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 11, 2008, 07:42:21 PM
Mr Fresh,

are you Mormon?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 11, 2008, 07:45:10 PM

do you mind responding to the following thread?

Since I go to an interdenominational church, I don't carry around a list of Christians sects that I consider "Christian".  But, just to show that two can play this game, let's put the shoe on the other foot and ask Mormons what their church thinks of other "Christian" sects...


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: © tweed on February 11, 2008, 07:47:04 PM
I'm going to regret asking this: Tweed what do you think?

I'd answer no, as Joseph Smith rejected the NT and therefore the central text of Christianity.  but as a non-Christian I'm not all that qualified to answer.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: © tweed on February 11, 2008, 07:52:03 PM
then perhaps I haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: The Mikado on February 11, 2008, 08:44:51 PM
then perhaps I haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about.

He tacked on a Third Testament, his Book of Mormon, which, along with The Pearl of Great Price and some other Smith documents, make up the canonical texts of the LDS faith.

Do I have that right, Mr. Fresh?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 11, 2008, 09:28:06 PM
No, not really. But it isn't really any of my business.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Ebowed on February 11, 2008, 09:52:31 PM
No, although I am no longer a Christian so my opinion is of little consequence.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Aizen on February 11, 2008, 09:54:31 PM
No. Closer to scientology than christianity (imo...)


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Ebowed on February 11, 2008, 09:55:43 PM
I'm going to regret asking this: Tweed what do you think?

I'd answer no, as Joseph Smith rejected the NT and therefore the central text of Christianity.  but as a non-Christian I'm not all that qualified to answer.

They accept the New Testament only if it is the version edited by Joseph Smith.  Which is a pretty serious claim to be making, IMO...


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on February 11, 2008, 09:57:34 PM
Yes. If they call themselves Christian, that makes them Christian.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: John Dibble on February 11, 2008, 10:29:43 PM
Yes in the sense that they worship Jesus as Christ the savior, no in that they have a New New Testament in addition to the New Testament. (sort of in the way that Christians aren't Jews even though the Torah is the Old Testament in the Bible)

Think of them as "Christians+" or "Überchristians", or something along those lines. And while we're on that line of of thinking, I insist that normal Christians from now on be called "Mega Jews" or "Hyper Hebrews", whichever you would prefer.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: The Mikado on February 11, 2008, 10:34:02 PM
Yes. If they call themselves Christian, that makes them Christian.

Okay, that might go a bit far.  Is Sun Myung Moon a Christian?

For that matter, was Hong Xiuquan?  (You're a history buff, if you haven't heard of him, look him up.  Fascinating.)


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on February 11, 2008, 10:47:54 PM
Yes. If they call themselves Christian, that makes them Christian.

Okay, that might go a bit far.  Is Sun Myung Moon a Christian?

For that matter, was Hong Xiuquan?  (You're a history buff, if you haven't heard of him, look him up.  Fascinating.)

I should add that they cannot believe anything specifically disproven by scripture. That way, the Ahmadiyyas are not Muslim.

Reading about Hong right now.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: War on Want on February 11, 2008, 10:51:16 PM
No. They don't believe in Jesus as their savior so they are not.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Јas on February 12, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
The argument here stems from there being no set definition of "Christian".


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Ebowed on February 13, 2008, 02:26:43 AM
As I said, the Church reads from only the authorized King James Version of the Bible.

The authorized version which Joseph Smith used to plagiarize sections into the Book of Mormon?  The authorized version which was edited on Smith's whims without any other text to translate from?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: opebo on February 13, 2008, 03:06:34 AM
Yes, obviously, and whats more, some of the worst!

Did you know that they infest the SS/FBI, CIA, and Air Force?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on February 13, 2008, 03:41:10 AM
No. Joseph Smith was a liar and a false prophet who established a false religion of lies.

When some Mormon missionaries came to near my campus I basically told them to leave me and yelled at one "I reject your false church in the name of Jesus Christ!" Annoying that they would bug me while I was preparing to leave and go off to a strip club...


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: John Dibble on February 13, 2008, 07:19:56 AM
No. Joseph Smith was a liar and a false prophet who established a false religion of lies.

When some Mormon missionaries came to near my campus I basically told them to leave me and yelled at one "I reject your false church in the name of Jesus Christ!" Annoying that they would bug me while I was preparing to leave and go off to a strip club...

How Christian of you...


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 13, 2008, 02:23:46 PM
As I said, the Church reads from only the authorized King James Version of the Bible.

The authorized version which Joseph Smith used to plagiarize sections into the Book of Mormon?  The authorized version which was edited on Smith's whims without any other text to translate from?

No to both.

Does that mean you believe Mormon doctrine has a basis in the Old and New Testaments of the bible?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Verily on February 13, 2008, 03:56:22 PM
No. Joseph Smith was a liar and a false prophet who established a false religion of lies.

Can something like this not be said of all religions?

Yes, but it's not going to convince anyone arguing from the Mormon or the Christian side.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 13, 2008, 05:02:58 PM
I vote we save ourselves several headaches and shut down this thread before we have to end up debating Mormon doctrine.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: ilikeverin on February 13, 2008, 06:08:48 PM
Yes, Mormons are Christians.  Some are probably more "Christian" than I, both in the doctrinal sense and in the "doing compassionate things" sense :P


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Ebowed on February 13, 2008, 07:43:50 PM
No. Joseph Smith was a liar and a false prophet who established a false religion of lies.

Can something like this not be said of all religions?

I agree with both statements here, actually...


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 13, 2008, 10:48:54 PM
Does that mean you believe Mormon doctrine has a basis in the Old and New Testaments of the bible?

Yes I do.

I vote we save ourselves several headaches and shut down this thread before we have to end up debating Mormon doctrine.

It's only going to happen if you start it...

But, if you have examined the issues for yourself and have determined your own path with full confidence, then who am I to stand in your way with questions?  What could you possibly learn from me?  I do not claim that my doctrine is perfect and I'm sure my experience is tiny compared with your church with all its teachers and study courses.

You should be the one who teaches me, for it written, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." (Pro 27:17)

But, if you teach me, I only ask you to follow the example of Jesus when he taught the Sadducees who only accepted a small portion of the canon as scripture.  Jesus was able to teach correct doctrine from the portion of scripture they accepted. So, since I only accept the Old and New Testaments, you’ll have to derive the Mormon doctrine from them and them only, for I will not accept the Book of Mormon as proof.

Agreed?  If so, you can start with whatever topic you desire.  Or, if you prefer, I will present a topic. just as the Sadducees presented a topic to Jesus.





Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 13, 2008, 11:34:42 PM
But, if you teach me, I only ask you to follow the example of Jesus when he taught the Sadducees who only accepted a small portion of the canon as scripture.  Jesus was able to teach correct doctrine from the portion of scripture they accepted. So, since I only accept the Old and New Testaments, you’ll have to derive the Mormon doctrine from them and them only, for I will not accept the Book of Mormon as proof.

...I accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God, along with the Old and New Testaments.  They clarify each other and promote Christ-like living.  There are true doctrines (as I believe) that are found in each, and some that are not.  To separate the Book of Mormon from my canon of scriptures would not only separate me from a great strength that I draw from, but it would only almost make a debate worthless.

...Plus, I would hate you to play the part of the Sadducees.  If you want, instead of disproving each other, we could have a discussion on what each of our faiths actually believe.  I leave it to you.

You should know that I also respect the heritage of your Mormon faith.

I think our doctrinal differences stem from the differences of our approach.  If our approach was the same, our doctrines would be closer.

In the examples in the New Testament, I see Christ and the Apostles able to teach Christianity and derive Christian doctrine from the Old Testament, since that was the only scripture they could use to prove their points to their audience.  And, in the case of Sadducees, Jesus was able to derive doctrinal truth by using only the first five books of the Old Testament.

Therefore, I attempt to follow the same pattern:  I make sure I can trace every doctrine of mine throughout the length of scripture.

So, if Jesus and the Apostles were able to use the Old Testament to derive New Testament doctrine, shouldn't every Apostle of God, whether they claim to be Mormon or interdenominational, be able to do the same?  And if Jesus and the Apostles were able to do that with just the Old Testament, how much more should modern day Apostles be able to do that using both the Old and New Testaments?  After all, Christianity is suppossed to be the restoration of the early church, or at least follow the pattern of the early church, and not create a new church, right?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 12:51:52 AM
good it looks like we agree.  So does that mean you can use the New and Old Testaments to derive your doctrine?  After all, seeing that Jesus and the Apostles were able to use the Old Testament exclusively, how much it is to ask of you to use the Old and/or New Testament?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: 12th Doctor on February 14, 2008, 03:06:35 AM
good it looks like we agree.  So does that mean you can use the New and Old Testaments to derive your doctrine?  After all, seeing that Jesus and the Apostles were able to use the Old Testament exclusively, how much it is to ask of you to use the Old and/or New Testament?

Hrm...I did state that there have been certain truths lost from the Bible.  I think there is a great majority that can be found in the Bible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the whole of the doctrine is.  Again, the reason for the Book of Mormon.

Wow... from out of the depths... welcome back.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 08:36:34 AM
good it looks like we agree.  So does that mean you can use the New and Old Testaments to derive your doctrine?  After all, seeing that Jesus and the Apostles were able to use the Old Testament exclusively, how much it is to ask of you to use the Old and/or New Testament?

Hrm...I did state that there have been certain truths lost from the Bible.  I think there is a great majority that can be found in the Bible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the whole of the doctrine is.  Again, the reason for the Book of Mormon.

lost from the new testament or lost from the old testament?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 11:05:23 AM
lost from the new testament or lost from the old testament?

Each, with so many different translations and therefore different interpretations I don't think this is an unreasonable position.

then when were these Mormon teachings lost from the old and new testaments and who lost them?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 11:34:54 AM
then when were these Mormon teachings lost from the old and new testaments and who lost them?

Jmf, I do not want to rag on the Bible, but if we go down this road it will be seen by non-believers that I am (that's usually the nature of translation arguments).

I am more than willing to concede to you the argument that the bible was corrupted and the Mormon teachings lost from it.  I am simply trying to arrive at a point in time when you believe the bible was intact.  Do you believe the old testament was intact during the lives of Peter and Paul?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 12:12:43 PM
Hrmmmm, that was a hard question!  :)  Deserving of a lot of thought.  I would have to say that I do not believe it was intact during Christ's time.  There are many books referred to in the Bible that we don't even know anything about.  Therefore, seeing that the Bible was still in a process of being complied just a few hundred years before Christ, were those lost Books there I would guess we'd see them today.

ok, but even if I shatter a plate on the floor and lose half the pieces, none of the remaining pieces are going to conflict with the orginal plate, correct?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 12:42:33 PM

ok, but even if I shatter a plate on the floor and lose half the pieces, none of the remaining pieces are going to conflict with the original plate, correct?

In my opinion, it's hard to make an argument that the Bible would be intact if those pieces are missing.  I do know that with the plate analogy you're referring to the correctness of the Book, ya?  On that note, I'd say that the discrepancies between the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls in itself proves that translation was a problem, even in Christ's time.

So, if pieces were missing and the pieces that remained were corrupted during Christ's time and if the Apostles were aware of the corruption, why did the Apostles dedicate themselves to the public reading of "corrupted" scripture?  And if the Apostles believed it was corrupted, why did they instruct the church to use the corrupted scripture as a litmus test for determining truth?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 01:10:08 PM
So, if pieces were missing and the pieces that remained were corrupted during Christ's time and if the Apostles were aware of the corruption, why did the Apostles dedicate themselves to the public reading of "corrupted" scripture?  And if the Apostles believed it was corrupted, why did they instruct the church to use the corrupted scripture as a litmus test for determining truth?

Good argument.  My first point would be that, like the Bible today, they had to go with what they had.  I never said that the Bible is corrupted, but it's not perfect.  Reading the Bible, even today again, you have a rather large choice of which translations to choose from.  The existence of the Masoretic Text  and the differing Dead Sea Scrolls only shows that they had the same problem then.

Ok, there are problems with different sections of different translations of the bible.  But which translation or combination of translations of the bible did you use to validate the Book of Mormon was the restoration of what the early church taught?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 01:22:35 PM
Ok, there are problems with the different sections of different translations of the bible.  But which translation or combination of translations of the bible did you use to validate the Book of Mormon was the restoration of what the early church taught?

I've stated we use the authorized King James Version of the Bible.  The difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is simply the fact that they took place in different locations.  The people of the Book of Mormon didn't have the privilege of having Jesus' Mortal Ministry.  Again, going off of location, it wasn't the exact same church in the Book of Mormon, they didn't have some of the issues that the Mediterranean church had, but they had different ones.

As far as gospel teachings go, the King James Version of the Bible is closest to the true meaning.

so, then,  although the KJV lacks the full Mormon gospel, I can read the KJV and not find any contradictions between it and the Book of Mormon?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 02:51:58 PM

so, then,  although the KJV lacks the full Mormon gospel, I can read the KJV and not find any contradictions between it and the Book of Mormon?

I didn't say that.  You of all people should know that the Bible is a major subject to interpretation.

granted, but, from your point of view, what source did you use to verify the doctrines of the Book of Mormon were actually what the early church taught?  Obviously, you didn't pick Joseph Smith's translation of the Book Mormon as the standard of truth and disregard any connections to what came before.  So, what was your source of comparison?  Did you compare your interpretation of the KJV with the Book of Mormon and determined there were no contradictions?

Basically, I am asking you to name the bridge (the common denominator) you used in reaching your conclusion that the Book of Mormon was what the early church taught.  Name the bridge so that I can also travel along it.   


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 03:05:35 PM
Well first I think we would have to decide which doctrines the early church taught, as compared to contemporary religion.  I'll pick one (and I know this is the Doctrinal debate that's been coming, but do you agree to keep it a debate, and not an argument?), I posted this up in a poll that you should have seen, A Pre-Mortal existence.  This is taught by my church, and viewed as something early Christianity taught.

May I assume you do not believe in a Pre-Mortal existence?

is that a doctrine that is common to both the Book of Mormon and the Bible, or is it one that the Bible has lost?  (If it is one that is not in the Bible, then I'll concede the argument, for I have no way to determine its truth since I would be lacking a common denominator.)


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 03:16:24 PM
May I assume you do not believe in a Pre-Mortal existence?

is that a doctrine that is common to both the Book of Mormon and the Bible, or is it one that the Bible has lost?  (If it is one that is not in the Bible, then I'll concede the argument, for I have no way to determine its truth since I would be lacking a common denominator.)

Good ol' jmf, you don't want to be preached too. :)  I can understand, but yes I can support this with the Bible.  I know fully well what we're headed into, I must congratulate you on successfully getting me to debate points of doctrine.  Though, I'm doing this to support my beliefs, as found in both the Bible and Book of Mormon.  I do not expect to convert you, and I do not expect you to convert me.  We will discuss points of doctrine, as we see them, yes?

if it is in the Bible, then preach away.  Just give a short description of Pre-Mortal existence and cite the verses of the Bible that support it.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 06:13:38 PM
Mr. Fresh,

ok, what is the point in knowing that we existed prior to coming to earth?  to where does this doctrine lead?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 06:31:52 PM
Mr. Fresh,

ok, what is the point in knowing that we existed prior to coming to earth?  to where does this doctrine lead?

It leads to learning about the Plan of Salvation, there was indeed great reason for all the Sons of God to shout for joy once creation was finished.  This gave us a chance to come to Earth and live our lives.

and how does this knowledge of a previous life that I assume you can't remember affect your actions here on earth?  in other words, what action is prompted by this knowledge?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: War on Want on February 14, 2008, 07:06:44 PM
No. They don't believe in Jesus as their savior so they are not.

LOL, I really hope you're joking.
You actually do believe in Jesus as Mormons? If you do thats great but I still don't consider you Christians. You guys added a whole book and made it more important to the Bible, where in my opinions God specifically instructed all Christians to never accept anything added to the Bible.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Person Man on February 14, 2008, 07:09:59 PM
I don't know.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 14, 2008, 11:01:40 PM
and how does this knowledge of a previous life that I assume you can't remember affect your actions here on earth?  in other words, what action is prompted by this knowledge?

Wouldn't it be nice if I could?  Point is I gave scriptures that supported this in the Bible.  Were you born with the full knowledge of Jesus Christ?

Let me ask a few questions regarding this subject:

Why didn't God just create us in heaven?  Why do we have to come to this life to suffer, live in anguish, and for some to reject God?  What is the point of creating Earth?

I meant:  What is the purpose of this doctrine?  What action from you does this doctrine prompt?  If it explains the "full" plan of salvation, does knowledge of this full plan of salvation require you to do anything different?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on February 15, 2008, 09:34:30 PM
You actually do believe in Jesus as Mormons? If you do thats great but I still don't consider you Christians. You guys added a whole book and made it more important to the Bible, where in my opinions God specifically instructed all Christians to never accept anything added to the Bible.

Can you back that up?

Rev. 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 11:27:04 AM
I meant:  What is the purpose of this doctrine?  What action from you does this doctrine prompt?  If it explains the "full" plan of salvation, does knowledge of this full plan of salvation require you to do anything different?

What is the purpose of this doctrine?
What is the purpose of any doctrine?  For example, what exactly is the purpose of knowing about and believe original sin?

What action from you does this doctrine prompt?
The knowledge of the Pre-Mortal life sets clear and answers the questions that God does indeed have a plan for us on the Earth.

 If it explains the "full" plan of salvation, does knowledge of this full plan of salvation require you to do anything different?
Oh yes, it affirms the very reason we are here, it strengthens the faith and knowledge of the goodness of God.

The purpose of any doctrine (false or true) is to prompt action from the believer. 

The purpose of knowing we inhereted a sinful nature from Adam and Eve is to know:
1) Where sin originated in humans - so that we know we were born into a system of sin
2) That we cannot be sinless - thus we understand we need Grace and renewal

---

Back on the topic of Pre-Mortal Existence - from a Mormon perspective, why did you need to come to earth?  Did you fall from a previous heavenly position by sinning prior to coming to earth and your earthly life is somehow an attempt to recapture that position? 

And at what time did your heavenly life end as compared with your birthdate on earth?  Did your heavenly life end thousands of years ago and you waited in limbo to be born on earth?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 02:03:39 PM
The purpose of knowing we inhereted a sinful nature from Adam and Eve is to know:
1) Where sin originated in humans - so that we know we were born into a system of sin
2) That we cannot be sinless - thus we understand we need Grace and renewal

That's not provoking an action; that's providing a belief.  Same thing as what I'm saying.

belief provokes action, but we are saying the same thing

---

No, we lived in a state of not knowing good from evil, we had to come to Earth to gain knowledge.

how do you gain this knowledge on earth that you couldn't gain in your previous life?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 02:15:59 PM
how do you gain this knowledge on earth that you couldn't gain in your previous life?

There was no temptation (as we were in God's presence), no way to do either good or evil.  The state can be compared to Adam and Eve before they partook of the forbidden fruit.

EDIT:  I should clarify, the state of mind of Adam and Eve, not knowing good from evil or having their eyes opened to sin.  The state can not be compared to there being no temptation..as clearly Adam and Eve had temptation.

ok, I understand your explanation why you couldn't obtain it in Heaven, but how did you gain knowledge of good and evil here on earth?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 02:37:22 PM
ok, I understand your explanation why you couldn't obtain it in Heaven, but how did you gain knowledge of good and evil here on earth?

Well this is pretty much the purpose of life, religion, and living a Christian life.  Trial and error, sinning and repentance, the scriptures and Jesus Christ.  These are a few things that lead people to gain that knowledge.

Let's take the first murder in the Bible, Cain murders Abel, is this a good or bad thing?  Up until that point that sort of sin had never been on Earth.  Why was Cain guilty?  Simply put because the Lord said so, murder is evil.  Since we have all experienced some sort of sin in our lives we know what good and what is evil.  Our guide to not commit those sins is Jesus Christ.

So God put you on earth so that through sin you might gain knowledge that harms you?  I don't get it.  Why was it necessary to gain this knowledge?  What benefit is there to sinning?

In any case, what kind of being were you before coming to earth?  Were you an angel or some other kind of spiritual being? 


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 03:12:53 PM
What is the point of life; from your view?

For the same reason Eve was created for Adam; we were created to provide God companionship:

"It is not good for man to be alone"

---


And what was God to you before coming to earth, and what will God be to you after this life?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 05:14:29 PM
sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 07:07:40 PM
sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

The relationship is the same then, now, and in the future...He is the Father.

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 07:18:11 PM
sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

The relationship is the same then, now, and in the future...He is the Father.

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

There is no firm doctrine on that.

huh?  Joseph Smith didn't teach that God was created by another "god" and was once a man who lived on another planet before attaining godhood?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 07:33:54 PM

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

There is no firm doctrine on that.

huh?  Joseph Smith didn't teach that God was created by another "god" and was once a man who lived on another planet before attaining godhood?

Nope.

then who was it that said, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation"


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 07:45:22 PM
then who was it that said, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation"

If I had to take a guess it would be Orson Pratt.

wasn't he among the coucil of twelve?  the same council that formed the Mormon doctrine?

---

  Nevertheless, as I stated before, and have to state unequivocally again:  There is no firm doctrine around this subject.  I find it absolutely pointless for someone to be checking on old quotes that have no basis for firm Church doctrine.

ok, but isn't this from Joseph Smith

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity,  I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 07:47:51 PM
he is the link of what Joseph Smith wrote:

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 08:02:32 PM
hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting from what he preached.

In fact, he didn't claim it was his opinion, but rather he opened the sermon by saying, "I calculate to edify you with the simple truths from heaven."

so, it doesn't bother you that Joseph Smith opined the following?

"These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said."

---

so, if you have researched it all, did you find any verses in your bible that refuted Joseph Smith's opinion?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 08:16:04 PM
hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting from what he preached.

When the "messenger" clearly changes from being an inquisitive person to drumming up a traditional anti-Mormon argument, I will call him on it.  I've said this before and it seems I have to say it again, the JD is opinion and non-authoritative.  There is no basis for any of what you said in Church doctrine.

an anti-Mormon argument?  How can a posted sermon of Joseph Smith's be considered an anti-Mormon argument? Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself? 

I am simply asking if you agree with the sermon and have it to be in agreement with the bible.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 08:27:18 PM
an anti-Mormon argument?  How can a posted sermon of Joseph Smith's be considered an anti-Mormon argument? Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself? 

I am simply asking if you agree with the sermon and have it to be in agreement with the bible.

Seriously dude, don't try to play around with me here.  You can quote all you want from the Journal of Discourses, but that does not make them authoritative in the Church theology.  You can try to pawn this off as you are merely quoting Joseph Smith, and ask this question: "Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself?"  But your purpose is sinister in trying to apply opinion to LDS Church doctrine.

ok, I agree it is his opinion.  but do you agree with it or not?  I haven't disagreed with any of the pasages you quoted to support what you believe, rather I have simply let you state what you believe without arguing with you.  So why can't you answer if you agree or not with this sermon of Joseph Smith's?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 08:34:49 PM
ok, I agree it is his opinion.  but do you agree with it or not?  I haven't disagreed with any of the pasages you quoted to support what you believe, rather I have simply let you state what you believe without arguing with you.  So why can't you answer if you agree or not with this sermon of Joseph Smith's?

I can answer that, I just wanted to make plainly sure that the JD is opinion.  I also know that you haven't argued with me on my beliefs, though at many opportunities I know you could have.  Having said that, no I don't agree with the quote that you gave.

What do you find biblically wrong with the sermon?

Do you share the same opinion of the the Journals of Discourses (JD) that Joseph Smith had?:

"It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal."  President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Journals of Discourses Vol.18.



Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 09:02:20 PM
again I ask, what did you find biblically wrong with Joseph Smith's sermon?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 09:10:18 PM
What do you find biblically wrong with the sermon?

Do you share the same opinion of the the Journals of Discourses (JD) that Joseph Smith had?:

"It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal."  President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Journals of Discourses Vol.18.

The preface was written by Joseph F. Smith, a descendant of Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith's brother.  I do believe the Journal of Discourses provides good insight, but some of the opinion therein do not exactly stand in par with LDS Church doctrine.

Joseph F. Smith was also a president of the LDS Church


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 18, 2008, 09:34:29 PM
I could make a Biblical argument both ways.  It depends on how literal you take the passage.  If I take the word "same" as meaning "exact" I would not agree with it.  However, it is stated in the Bible that we will be heirs of the Kingdom of God.

so you think God is going to get promoted and you're going to take God's place and be exalted yourself? 


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: War on Want on February 18, 2008, 10:06:23 PM
I could make a Biblical argument both ways.  It depends on how literal you take the passage.  If I take the word "same" as meaning "exact" I would not agree with it.  However, it is stated in the Bible that we will be heirs of the Kingdom of God.

so you think God is going to get promoted and you're going to take God's place and be exalted yourself? 

No.
Then what do you think the passage means by being heirs of God?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 19, 2008, 10:54:31 AM
Mr. Fresh

I'm going to be very busy today and maybe the rest of this week, so I won't be able to post.

So, I'll cut to the chase:  This line of questioning is to determine if you are capable of critiquing church leadership when you consider that they are in error.

I'd like to also see you conclude whether or not God was created by another god or if God was always God. and back up your conclusion with any scripture you'd like.

Peace.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 19, 2008, 02:03:57 PM
As for the God question, there is no real evidence that God was created by another being.  There are plain scriptures that point to this.  I will also give a scripture from Mormon writ to back that.

Quote
Revelation 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Agreed

---

Doctrine and Covenants 20:11-12
11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;
12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.
 

Although I agree with the conclusion, they made quite a leap in logic by saying that God calls people today as he did yesterday therefore God is unchanging.  I've brushed my teeth for decades, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t changed.

---

If I may add some verses to put this issue to rest:

Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?



Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 19, 2008, 02:24:50 PM
Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

Yes I would.

Ok, so then, if the leaders of the LDS Church disagreed with the following sermon by Joseph Smith...

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity,  I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us"

...why did they reprint it decades later in their Journals of Discourses?  Why hold it up as an example of a great sermon?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 19, 2008, 02:38:56 PM
so, are you saying that sermon didn't represent what Josepth Smith really believed and he simply had eaten some bad pizza that day?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 19, 2008, 03:04:42 PM
so, are you saying that sermon didn't represent what Joseph Smith really believed and he simply had eaten some bad pizza that day?

lol, ok I'll highlight for you the most operative statement to the discussion:

Quote
...It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest...

well, that speculation was certainly widespread among the leadership, since the church records demonstrate many of them teaching along the same lines.

Since they kept a record of the sermons, is there a record of a member of the LDS leadership rebuking and disagreeing with the "speculation" of that day?



Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 20, 2008, 12:19:00 AM
so, now that we agree that God was always God and will always be God:  "I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isa 43:10)

Who were you in your "pre-mortal" existence?

And who is Jesus Christ in the Mormon Church?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 20, 2008, 11:17:58 AM

but you believe you are from Heaven, right?


---


sorry, my question wasn't clear:  who was Jesus prior to coming to earth?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 20, 2008, 11:16:38 PM
but you believe you are from Heaven, right?

I've never referred to it as that, and no the Pre-Mortal existence was not heaven.

then where was this pre-mortal existence?

---

sorry, my question wasn't clear:  who was Jesus prior to coming to earth?

The First Son of God.

and who was Jesus before he was the First Son of God?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 22, 2008, 01:21:48 AM
Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

Yes I would.

Mr. Fresh, I'm glad we agreed that God was always God and always will be God and that there will never be another God.

sorry, my question wasn't clear:  who was Jesus prior to coming to earth?

The First Son of God.

So, the follow up question is:  Who was Jesus Christ before be became the Son of God?

The way I see it, the basic definition of Christianity is to believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, and in order for Jesus Christ to be Deity, he had to always be God, because as the above verses make clear, God always existed.  Since created beings didn't always exist, they can not be God...which means the idea that Jesus (who is God) is somehow the spiritual brother of Satan is nonsense.  Such a statement robs Jesus of his Deity as if he was once on an equal level with Satan and spawns the idea that Jesus was a created being that attained godhood. 

The created being who first got the idea of attaining godhood was Satan himself:

Isa 14 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
       O Lucifer, son of the dawn!
       You have been cast down to the earth,
       you who once laid low the nations!

 13 You said in your heart,
       "I will ascend to heaven;
       I will raise my throne
       above the stars of God;
       I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
       on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 
 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
       I will make myself like the Most High."

 15 But you are brought down to the grave,
       to the depths of the pit.

Since it was Satan who first aspired to attain godhood, is it little wonder the rest of Christianity is shocked by the beliefs of Joseph Smith?


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 22, 2008, 01:06:16 PM
So, the follow up question is:  Who was Jesus Christ before be became the Son of God?

The way I see it, the basic definition of Christianity is to believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, and in order for Jesus Christ to be Deity, he had to always be God, because as the above verses make clear, God always existed.  Since created beings didn't always exist, they can not be God...which means the idea that Jesus (who is God) is somehow the spiritual brother of Satan is nonsense.  Such a statement robs Jesus of his Deity as if he was once on an equal level with Satan and spawns the idea that Jesus was a created being that attained godhood. 

See your premise that Jesus is God the Father is where we differ.  The LDS Church does not subscribe to the Trinitarian doctrine that the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit are one eternal God.  The LDS Church affirms that they are separate beings, in one Godhead, and one in purpose not substance.  And I challenge you to bring me a scripture where 'trinity' is mentioned.

So if God the Father, and Jesus Christ are indeed different persons, and since God did create all things and people it stands that Jesus Christ and humanity are brothers and sisters.

So, to you, God created Jesus, who in turn somehow became a god himself.  Which contradicts our previous ageement that there is only one God and that one God always existed and that there will never be another god other than God.

And scripture says that Jesus created all things:

Col 1
15 Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 Jesus is before all things, and in Jesus all things hold together. 18And Jesus is the head of the body, the church; Jesus is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything Jesus might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in Jesus, 20and through Jesus to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross.  [pronoun he was replaced with Jesus throughout]

---


  I also have this question to pose, where did Satan come from?  He is a "Fallen Angel" I presume is your belief, so where did he come from?  God created all things so it stands to reason that he created Lucifer as well.

yes, God did create Satan

---

I have never made a statement, and certainly the Church hasn't, that Satan is on the same level as Jesus Christ.  He is in the Godhead, he is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, by him and through him humanity is saved.  He is the mediator between justice and mercy.  Satan on the other hand is the antithesis of everything I've mentioned.

well, at some point in the past, if you believe Jesus and Satan were both created and were brothers, then you're saying they were at one time on the same level.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: ilikeverin on February 22, 2008, 07:05:15 PM
So, I'll cut to the chase:  This line of questioning is to determine if you are capable of critiquing church leadership when you consider that they are in error.

I'd like to see you make some critique of the Bible, even a literary one.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on March 19, 2009, 12:29:01 PM
Wow, just found this. Can't believe yes is winning.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Joe Biden 2020 on March 19, 2009, 09:01:23 PM
An emphatic NO


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Alcon on March 19, 2009, 11:41:01 PM
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who subscribes to Christ as a divine savior is a "Christian."  I realize that there are other definitions that entail the Trinity.  I don't see why anyone cares much.  Identity obsession is less important, I'd hope, than actual religion.  To the uninitiated, it seems semantic.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: pbrower2a on March 27, 2009, 12:52:43 AM
By accepting the Book of Mormon as a sacred text, Mormons are heretics.

Not that there's anything evil in that in itself.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Daniel Z on March 27, 2009, 01:17:25 AM
If they want to be.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: John Dibble on March 27, 2009, 05:06:47 PM
By accepting the Book of Mormon as a sacred text, Mormons are heretics.

And that means what exactly? A heretic is only someone who's decided to believe something other than the established theology. Pretty much every Christian alive today is a heretic relative to some other form of Christian thought. Are you a Protestant? You're a heretic. Are you a Catholic? I'm pretty sure some Catholics from earlier days would call you a heretic. Unless you can prove that you follow the exact dogma and whatnot that the direct disciples of Jesus followed, you're a heretic. And even if you do, you're still a heretic from a Jewish perspective.

Me, I'll just stick to being an infidel.


Title: Re: are Mormons Christians?
Post by: Earth on March 27, 2009, 07:01:03 PM
For their belief in Christ, they are Christians.