Talk Elections

I move to proceed directly to voting, as the bulk of this Act is the same as the orginal, which has already been debated.

I second that motion!

I also second the motion, or "third" it.  It will take two more senators to do the same for the bill to go to voting.

add my second.

and me too :)

That's four, plus me, who proposed it. So can we open voting now?

Yes.  I hereby open voting.

I vote nay.

I vote yea, making the vote 1-1

Yea

Yea (3-1)

Yea.

Yea.

It's now 5-1.

Yea.

6-1.

The 2nd Educational Equipment Act has passed 6-1.

Now I guess we just wait for voting to finish. States will vote Nay, Nation likely nay, and Hughento yay.

Can I just note that you people put up a tax increase of $150 billion dollars a year when the entire Dept. of Education budget is only $60 billion?  Not to mention the fact that the cost savings from cutting district office funding, as I suggested during the first debate (http://www.uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=7768;start=15) will be more than enough to cover cost of school construction.

This is about to become the largest pork barrel project in American history.

I intended to veto this but it won't matter unless all the other Senators turn out to vote against this.

The bill was already passed by the Senate 6 to 1..even if the others turned out and voted nay it would pass.

He means that if the Senate has 7 votes, it can override the veto.

I really am dissapointed in Senator King, its embarrassing that one of my senators and a member of my party (that purportedly is for responsible government) would cast such a thoughtless vote.

I vote aye.

Surplus money for education isn't a bad thing, John.

I'm sorry Mr. Ford, but education reform is a top priority of mine. Besides, we can always cut spending on this later.

What is wrong withn you?  This is $150 billion a year we're talking about.  It isn't a little surplus money.  When you raise taxes to pay for something it isn't a surplus.  When you are running a deficit, which as far as I know the Atlas government is, then you don't have a surplus.

Does anyone seriously believe that:

1. There are $150 billion a year in school construction projects out there.
2. That the $150 billion couldn't be better spent on something else.
3. The raising taxes by $150 billion will not hurt a fragile economy experiencing $63 a barrel oil.

If anyone can honestly say that they believe these three things, then you can vote for this bill but you should also know that you're economically illiterate.

The voters should know that their Senate has just passed a spending bill without ever asking how much would be spent.

I don't see how making sure that young people get a proper education is as picayune as being suggested, and I furthermore fail to see how $150 billion is that large of a tax increase. After it's distributed, it's not that much more per head.

Too bad our Treasurer Ben isn't giving us any input. He is the money man...

Go look up how much the US spends per student on education.

Then look up how much then rest of the industrialized world spends.

Then try and honestly say that money is the problem.

"If you think Education is expensive, think about the cost of ignorance"

The United States education system (I'm assuming real-life facts about the US apply to Atlasia) produces children whose test scores don't match up to other countries with the same tools we have. (Basically, other 1st-world nations)

You say the money could be better spent. I assume you want it poured into the military. We spend vastly more than any other nation when it comes to the military, and yet, are we vastly safer than any other country?

Anyway, this bill passed, and with such resounding force that even a Presidential Veto can't stop it.

A big problem is that American culture does not value education and scorns the educated as "snobs" or "elitists", but I don't see how extra money for supplies will hurt anything, especially if properly financed via tax increases.

Yes, all we hear about are those Liberal Elitist Snobs up at Yale and Harvard.

Oh, what would we do without them.

Well, since you bring it up, my Defense Department stopped a genocide at the cost of less than $5 billion, so yeah I think its safe to say it would be better spent on the military.

In any case, this bill isn't about educating kids.  Its about pork disguised as compassion.

Here's how you SHOULD be thinking about this bill.  Find out what you need.  Then determine what it costs.  Then spend that amount.  What you have done is raise taxes by $150 billion without ever asking how much money you actually need to do the things you want to do.

Can a veto stop it?  I think we need only four votes to sustain a veto.  StevenNick, States, and nation are three.  Thaqt means all the president has to do is persuade one person to change his vote.  It won't be that hard, since six Senators voted for this bill without knowing how radical it actually was.

I encourage president Kennedy to veto this bill.  I promise to do everything I can to make sure that veto stands.

The President will be vetoing this bill.

These Senators don't have the slightest consept of how much money they're spending.

I have a full concept, John.

As a percentage of GDP, America spends less then it does on defence.

That, no matter how much money the percentage is, is plainly unacceptable.

Sure, $50 billion woul;d fix the holes, but the only way to improvwe the system is to fund it, alot, and more then historically was done.

Maybe the school you went to was alright. Maybe the school Akno went to was alright. but don't tell me for a second that all the schools in Flint are OK, or in Mississipii or in Pasadena or the Bronx-because they're not.

$150 billion dollars can, and quite possibly will, make our education system the best in the world. It doesn't need to be spent at once, but an extra $25 billion every year for 6 years will strongly help our youth.

I declared I would veto it, however it has received seven votes so my veto would not stand.

Think about the students at many high schools in Flint, MI, who haven't had a home track meet in 40 years, even though they frequently win county championships. Their track is so bad, the can't have meets on it. Aren't these kids missing out on something that the rest of us get to experience? And many Senators and other officals wish to deprive them of that opportunity, the opportunity to use a computer and the internet in school, which is especially important, considering many don't have a computer in their homes, the opportunity to have a home sporting event, the opportunity to go to the school library and see some new books on the shelves. That is sickening.

You shouldn't be punished for being poor. Many children in Atlasia are being punished. Public schools in the rich suburbs provide students with a better chance to learn than those who go to school in an inner-city or out on a farm. That is not equality. That is not fair. If we do a better job of educating our youth, they could grow up to be something better than a server at McDonalds, they could do something with their life.

Secretary Ford, would you rather have a nation that is dumb as a doornob but has a very little tiny bit better military than otherwise; or a nation that is as well educated as Japan, and has a very little tiny bit worse off military?

The cost of ignorance is higher than the cost of education will ever be.

Mr. Ford, the education of our youth is perhaps the most important thing the nation can spend money on.

Has this act officialy passed yet?

It has seven votes in favour so it cannot be vetoed. That is a yes.

It CAN be vetoed.  If the senate wishes, we can work to override your veto, but there is no gaurantee that that will happen.  PLEASE veto this bill, John.

Just because it got 7 votes doesn't mean you can't veto it.

I have declared that I veto it. However, it has seven votes in favour. Doesn't that make it a veto-proof majority?

Thank you, Mr. President.  You have made a decision that is in the best interest of the forum.

I motion to begin a vote on the overriding of our president's veto.
Do I hear a second?  If so, we can commence voting.

Upon a review of the Constitution, Article One specifies that any bill the President vetoes has no effect until the legislature OVERRIDES his veto by 2/3 majority.  That being the case, it is the conclusion of Caulder Consultancies' research team that the High Court would not conclude that this is a law UNTIL they do--so a second vote would be formally required.

Of course, we advise all parties to pay heed to the Attorney General's assessment first and foremost, and we cannot guarantee any prediction of the Court's favor in any legal contest.

I second. We must override the veto, and help our underpriviliged youth.

If its so important, then why didn't the Senate publish a single study on this issue before they passed the bill?  Never was a serious inquiry as to our needs made.

It is easy to throw money at a problem.  It takes actual effort to be thoughtful and diagnose flaws within the system and then prescribe solutions.  This is a bill that has no thought put into it.

Find me some sources and some analysis of how much money is needed before telling me that money is the problem.

Nay.

The vote is 1-0 against, and other senators may begin voting now.

Yea.

I urge my fellow Senators to not be swayed by the urging of President Kennedy and Secretary Ford. Help our youth! Even the playing field.  

Yea

Let me take a few moments to point out just a few of the plethora of problems with this bill.  First of all, what is "serious structural damage?"  Is this "independent group" (Independent group?  What is that?  Who is that?  Independent of what?) suppose to invent its own criteria for judging what qualifies as "serious structural damage?"  Second, is this group appointed by the government?  If so, is this independent group established by regional governments or the federal government?  Who exactly appoints this independent group?  How many are to serve on this independent group?  What types of people are to serve on this independent group--parents and teachers, architects and professionals, government workers??  If by "independent group" you are referring to a group that is independent of the government, should the government contract with a pre-existing private firm to serve in the capacity of an "independent group?"  What in God's name are you talking about when you say "independent group?"

My third point is in regards to Section 2 of this abominable bill.  Who is to provide these schools with these computers?  Who decides what types of computers will be bought?  What happens when those computers get out of date about a year and a half from now?  Will a whole new set of computers be purchased for every school in American?  If the federal government is who you mean to pay for all these computers, then the federal government and the tax payers who fund the federal government have a right to know just how many computers we're going to be paying for?  Are we signing ourselves up to buy millions of computers every two years or is this a one time purchase?  And even if it is a one time purchase, will we be buying cheap computers or expensive computers?  Desktops or laptops?  PCs or Macs?  If you are not willing to provide these details in your bill, Sen. Akno, will you at least establish a person who will be providing these details?

As far as textbooks are concerned, I have another batch of questions?  What if textbooks are not needed every ten years?  What if they are needed more often?  Who decides what textbooks will be bought and from what publishers?  Does this apply to textbooks of all subjects?  What if, as is the case in many classes (particularly in many advanced classes) textbooks are not used?  Would it be fair to provide extra funding to other classes and other schools while classes and schools without a need for textbooks are without that extra funding?  Are individual schools and classes allowed to spend the money for textbooks on other educational alternatives if textbooks are not necessary?

About Section 3....Are we going to raise taxes by 1% or 3%?  1.5%?  2%?  How about 2.857694869%?  Which is it?  And what if we raise taxes by the full 3% allowed for in this bill and it is still not enough to pay for all of this?  How much revenue do you expect to be able to raise by increasing tax rates on this relatively small group of Americans?  What do you mean when you suggest cutting back on "funding for new district offices?"  What are district offices and how much will funding for them be cut back by?  And what the hell are you talking about in D.3. about testing?  I think I speak for everyone when I say Section 3 is about the most vague, poorly written, and confusing portion of a bill ever to come up for a vote on the senate floor.  And what is this about not printing tests on paper?  Is that a suggestion?  Is that your personal opinion injected into this bill or will this bill make it illegal to print standardized tests on paper?

This is a bad bill.  Period.  End of Story.

I vote NAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea, 3-1 infavor of veto overide

Sen. King, I urge you to withdraw your vote in the affirmative.  I encourage you to read the questions I brought up in a previous post and to reconsider your position on this bill.

Stevennick brings up some very good points.  Akno, I'd advise you to withdraw your bill and flesh it out more.  I really like the bill, but Stevennick's questions are very legitimate.  Just be more specific in your bill, and bring it up again.

I would strongly urge the Senate NOT to pass this act.

While I agree that education is incredibly important. This measure is NOT appreciated at this time, not only is the amount it brings in ridiculously large fullstop, but it is astronomically so at this moment in time when the Atlasian economy is incredibly fragile.

A measure such as this has a great chance of landing us in a situation like that of 1929 in the USA. What we really need at the moment is to try and coax the price of oil down and get the economy running smoothly.

I ask the Senate where their priorities lie? In preventing a complete economic collapse of the nation, or in wasteful pork barrel spending on education.

I must vote NAY.

Why, you voted YEA on the original vote.

Fix the funding.

Nay.

Vote change: Nay

That is five votes against!

I would like to congratulate the Senate on making an excellent decision in a time of financial instability with special commendations to Senators Stevennick, Texasgurl, Nation, Statesrights and King.

I would also like to extend my personal congratulations to Senators Texasgurl and King for doing the responsible thing here.

My commendations also go to Senator StevenNick who has gone to the wall to preserve the solvency of the budget.

Don't give up on this importnat issue Akno :)

Akno ain't the type.  He's gonna shove it up my nose but good!

I'll "fix" the funding. Any ideas on how to fix the funding. I figure I could lower the tax burden, but that still might not be enough.

Start by finding some social science studies to determine how much spending is needed.

Thank you all for listening and responding in kind.  Thank you.

BUMP for Wasteful Government Spending Day :D