Talk Elections

You know, today I had an argument with a guy who tried to tell me that I can't be a Christian and be Pro-Choice.  I told him that I just have a fundamental belief that a fertilized egg does not have a soul.

I then asked him if he believes in the Death Penalty (he did).  I asked him how he can be Christian and favor the Death Penalty.  His response ... that's different.  So I ask, how so?  Isn't it a life?

Now personally, I do believe in the death penalty, but only in extreme cases.  Can I still be Christian if I believe in the death penalty?

The difference is that one commited a crime, lol! What do you mean what's the difference?!

No offense intended, but come on. That's just basic.

I voted "Yes", of course.

Both OT and NT support a state death penalty:

Rom 13:1-4 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

But the Bible also says,

"Judge not, that ye be not judged." - Matthew 7:1

Isn't taking someone's life away the ultimate of judgments?

If you honestly want to know what that means, I'll tell you. If you're being an ass, no one cares.

Okay, what does it mean, then?

To focus on the superiority of good over evil and not you over other people.

That's not incompatible with justice.

Well, after that part reads the following:

"For as you judge others, so will yourselves be judged, and whatever measure you deal out to others will be dealt back to you.  Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, with never a thought for the great plank in your own? ... You hypocrite!  First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's." - Matthew 7:2-5

I don't see how this is saying, "Don't proclaim to be better than others."  How would you be "deal[ing]" a "measure" by proclaiming to be better than someone else?

Exactly. If you go through life thinking your natural state is superior to other people, you're a hypocrite and a fool. If you're actually looking to do good, that's another thing.

Okay, if you want to look at it that way, then how is taking someone else's life not telling that person that those making the decision to do so are better?

Those making the decision to do so are correct. As for better, depends what you mean.

That quote in the bible simply means not to make rash judgements. It does not condemn a criminal justice system or the death penalty. If you want to go down that route, then should we get rid of the judicial system as well?

I've noticed that Christians will interpret different passages of the Bible differently.  Some choose to espouse "you live by the sword, you die by the sword" and some think "turn the other cheek".

I'm a Catholic and have a hard time supporting the death penalty.  However, I think there's no other option that adequately punishes a murderer (or equivalent criminal).  I would rather that those who would ordinarily face the death penalty be instead consigned to hard labor with no pay for the rest of their lives.  Let them break rocks; let them suffer the elements; let them think long and hard about their crime while they toil away for the rest of their days.  But that whole "cruel and unusual" thing comes into play here.  Usually, the alternative to the death penalty is life in prison, which isn't probably a walk in the park, but it just seems to light of a sentence to me.

These are issues that Christians must wrestle with, and they're difficult to answer.  My response is difficult and somewhat John Kerry-ish: no, I don't support the death penalty, but in lieu of chain gangs, hang 'em.

No.

It is ironic that the same people that don't trust the government with taxes, roads, business, social security, and schools, trust it with the lives of people.

This shows such anti-Christian behavior because they are fine with a system that is imperfect when it comes to killing someone else, and has proven to kill innnocent people, but they don't trust the same govenment when educating their children.

That is the furthest thing from Christianity that I can think of.

Can you picture Christ pulling the level, tying the noose, or injecting a person? I cannot.

Then maybe you can tell me the name of the one who is spoken about in the following verse:

Rev 19:15 He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

And doesn’t the flow of blood from this winepress run 5 feet deep over a distance of 180 miles? (Rev 14:20)

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Also, please reconcile your opinion with the following NT verse:

Rom 13:14 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Isn't the executioner pictured as "God's servant" in the above verse?

Rom 13:14 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Isn't the executioner pictured as "God's servant" in the above verse?


No, not if he is killing a man wrongly accused and sentenced. We kill the wrong person all the time. By supporting this flawed system that takes innocent lives as God's works, you are saying that God is flawed.

Yep, WHEN YOU ARE REPUBLICAN YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING AND DO ANYTHING TO CONFLICT YOUR ARGUMENT.

Yes. By definition one is a Christian only if they believe in the Triune God and that Jesus was the son of God.

I am not Christian, but I generally oppose the death penalty. While I don't oppose it in theory, it doesn't work in practice. The current system is a joke, if you look at racial stats on death row, as well as the fact that less than 1% of murders receive the death penalty and we know how long it takes to carry it out. On the other hand, increasing use of the death penalty increases the chances of executing innocents to way too high.

The only way I can see the death penalty being fairly used is it's used on only the most heinous of criminals, and I'm talking about war criminals and super terrorists (Timothy McVeigh would fall into this category). Then its sparingly use is logical due to the fact it is now the ultimate penalty. But the current system is a joke.

But, jmf, the authorities referred to in all your quotes are non Christian!

You can be a christian and favor the death penalty.  You cannot be a christian and be a vigilante.  Personally, I am a Christian who favors the death penalty in principle, but opposes it in practice.  I just don't have a high degree of confidence in the accuracy of our legal system. (as the recent DNA aquittals show).

Pretty much my thoughts, except I loved "Boondock Sainits" :D

I should clarify my earlier statement.  You *can* be a Christian and do a lot of things.  We are all sinners, and therefore none of us are perfect.  The question I was answering was whether you can be a christian who believes in the death penalty and have an internally consistent worldview.

"He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) interrupting a public execution of a woman for adultery. John 8:7, (NKJ)

"I like it the way it is." Comment by Governor George W. Bush of Texas at the time that a law prohibiting execution of the mentally disadvantaged was defeated.

Yes... but... er... um... maybe...

Where does it say they are not Christians?  NT Scripture records Christians holding positions of authority, including the authority to execute death sentences, yet none of these people of authority changed their occupation upon their conversion.

Nowhere in the bible does God exclude a state government from enforcing the law, even laws concerning the death penalty.

Most importantly, by claiming these "agents of God" who execute wrongdoers can not be Christians because the death penalty is sinful, you're basically saying that God has authorized and commissioned non-Christians to commit sin.

Obviously, such logic is flawed and contrary to the rest of scripture.

I was viewing this more from a historical, rather than logical, perspective. Christians, at the time these letters were written, were living in midst of a nonchristian society. Obeying its laws, which included the Deaht Penalty, strikes me as merely a sane course.
When Jesus had the power to prevent an execution, to be committed by his own people, he did so, at great personal risk to himself (that woman who was supposed to be stoned).

Wakie, you are a Catholic, right.  Well...

 2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.[67]

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

This is from the official Catechism.  What say you to this?

No, the ultimate judgement would be condeming someone to Hell.  Such as the Liberals did when Reagan died.

To what are you refering, exactly?  Don't just make a baseless, broad accusation.

My baseles claim.

When you call kerry a flip-flopper thats fine.

When i call fiscal conservatives h*******s. i get cried at and told not to say things.

You started this war by allowing charater assasinations to happen. you picked bush over mccain. and you know rove is behind the character assassinatio of Kerry so my claims will continue while bush remains in the white house.

Hillary for President in 2008

The New Testament records Christians in high ranking offices of society, and those offices had the authority (and duty) to carry out executions.

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That execution was based on the moral condemnation of an individual who had been caught committing fornication.  It was a condemnation based on immoral activity, not criminal activity.

so had it been official law, it would've been OK to execute her?

I am a practicing Roman Catholic, and I support the death penalty 110%.

That execution was based on the moral condemnation of an individual who had been caught committing fornication.  It was a condemnation based on immoral activity, not criminal activity.
It was based on Jewish common law of the time.

When has the Pope supported the death penalty.

I don't favour the death penalty simply because the wrongly convicted can be, and have been, executed.

Dave

Actually, the "Jewish common law" had the scepter ALREADY passing to Jesus - the Jews no longer had the authority to put anyone to death.

Gen 49:10 "The scepter will not depart from Judah, until he comes to whom it belongs."

I support the death penalty in principle, but not in practice. There's been too many close calls with innocents on death row.

Yes.  This is a free country...

but seriously I don't think the death penalty is discussed in the New Testament.

That's in reference to the lay person. The Bible specifically sets up the idea that there should be professional judges.


Also, the bible states that abortion is a crime, but it is only punishable such that, "the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman's husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning." (Sometimes "reckoning" is translated to, "as the judges determine.") Exodus 21:22

It also should be noted that the verses just before this say that the if someone kills a slave (property in those days, mind you) that, "he must be avenged."

So, Exodus 21 places the value of a foetus' life below a slave's. In fact, kidnapping, striking your parent, and not preventing your ox from goring people when you know it has the propensity for such are all punishable by death; that is, they are all worse than aborting a foetus.


Furthermore, a Christian can believe whatever he or she bloody well chooses, but it may prevent him or her from being a "good Christian."

Er...you'll have to explain this a bit further...but it doesn't look very convincing to me till now...

The scepter (authority) had already been passed to Jesus.

So, that would explain why he had the tight to stop the execution based on someone else's verdict, but not why he didn't then hand it out himself.

I voted yes because I don't want to be judgemental. But I'm a Christian, am opposed, and think this is the proper view.

The OT laws governing stoning people were simply a warning of eternal judgment for breaking God's laws.  They really had nothing to do with capital punishment as we know it today, rather the OT laws governed execution for not following a religion, regardless if the one being executed had actually harmed another individual.

Unlike the OT laws, Jesus didn't seek the execution of someone simply because they had failed a religious code.

You're comparing apples to oranges.