Talk Elections

Wow!

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/20/challenges_to_obamas_citizenship_grow.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/20/challenges_to_obamas_citizenship_grow.html)

How long till we hear a congressman or a senator ranting on the floor of congress about Obama's birth certificate?

LOL at Birthers.........  ::)

If Bill Sali were still around, he would have risen to the occasion already. As it is, I think we can count on someone like Michelle Bachmann or Jim Inhofe to express their concerns eventually.

Bill Posey has already embraced birtherism.

Leave it to Michelle to open her gash and start spewing about that.

"And frankly, Chris, I'm just a little concerned that our president may not be who he says he is.  I think we need to have a congressional committee headed by Republicans that investigates the patriotism of our Democrat party members.  This is America, land of the free, and we need to make sure our elected officials love this country."

Is it true that Bachmann will soon be made an honorary citizen of Oklahoma?

Even Coburn is not a birther.  Yeesh.

And birthers...just hold on tight to your little conspiracy theory because...


()

Wow, look at that bunch of retards. Especially that stupid bitch.

And everyone says Republicans aren't crazy.

New floor rule: from now on the only people allowed to comment and ask questions are ones who do not have half a dry-roasted peanut substituting for their brain.  :P

These people are just as ridiculous as the morons who tried to start conspiracy theories about Bush, Diebold, and Ohio in 2004.  The continuing trend of fringe elements of the opposing side questioning the legitimacy of the President of the United States is dangerous to our country.

Guess which big-time cable network journalist(?) is using his bully pulpit to embrace and promote the birther conspiracy theories.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/21/just_asking.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/21/just_asking.html)

Ahh, nothing like your liberal media at work!

I think the birthers are insane, but I don't understand why Obama doesn't produce the long-form birth certificate to end this. Maybe he's stoking this deliberately to make the activist right look stupid.

Probably for the same reason he doesn't produce evidence that he doesn't beat his wife.......it's so phucking ridiculous.

Yep, that's it, you caught us. Damn.

Ok... you do the same. I believe you will be told by the locale with the record that it cannot be removed, and that state sealed official copies are the only thing you can get. See, they wouldn't want people's original leaving the archives to be stolen, damaged, or destroyed. If you look up the pdf that the birthers reject, it clearly states that "this copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding." [HRS 338-13(b), 338-15]. Obama can't send a staffer to stroll into the Honolulu clerk's office and demand the original... even he couldn't do it.. the only thing the will give him is the copy

He's the President of the United States, not some nobody off the streets. Of course he should be able to get it or even just get the copy. Do you have a citation stating that this is the reason he doesn't do it?

Uhh.... Excuse me, but I think that even the President of the United States can't do whatever he wants if it means breaking the law.
If the law prohibits the state from producing the long certificate then no matter what Obama says, they won't.

Why would Obama want his enemies to stop fracturing?

It's not like anyone who believes this citizenship crap would be remotely willing to consider or support him, it's just a handy medium for them to channel their racism.

As far as which sitting Congressman will be the first to declare Obama wasn't born in the US (the "birther bill" only requires future presidents to produce them)....don't we already know who that will be?  it rhymes with Shashell Shachmann

     Yep. Can't we count on Bachmann to be the source of all Congressional controversy by now?

Don't give us that garbage. You know as well as I do that he can get at least a copy whenever he wants to. And again, where is the evidence that this is the primary reason it hasn't been done?

Are you daft? Just go a page back and there you will see a copy of his certificate.
Marokai has put it up as his signature.

Who's this Marokai fellow? Bet he's a lib.

I reckon he is a Big City Elitist too.
Probably he looks down to real americans from Ohio like CJK.

okay

And he's one them thar eggheaded college boy types too. Always with his head in some book, steadda doing real 'murrican stuff like listening to Glenn Beck and keepin' a watchful eye on welfare queens. 

Have you been reading anything we've been typing here? That's not his birth certificate. It's a certification of live birth. The two are not the same. What the "Birthers" want is for Obama to produce a copy of the "long-form" original certificate. Considering that Obama produced the certification to "fight the smears" against him in the first place, you'd think he'd provide all the information to settle the controversy, thus ending the "smears". I'm sorry if that makes too much sense for you.


I'd rather be dense than act like a complete douchebag such as yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1nmn2zRMc&feature=player_embedded

Mike Castle gets his Town Hall meeting taken over by a bunch of birthers, who then insist on everybody spontaneously pledging allegiance to the flag.

This gets funnier every day.

It's certainly intentional.

I guess you (px75) are a joke poster then. There's no other explanation for someone who calls you stupid after having to be corrected due to their own ignorance.

Oh, yeah, you can drop your "independent" masquerade too. Everything you have done is to shill for Dems and insult everyone who ideologically disagree with you.

This will be my final post here unless someone can give a real response as to why Obama will not release a copy of information to respond the "smears" he's so eager to crush.

"Eager to crush"?  Says who?  The administration has given this 'issue' just the right attention it deserves.

Yeah, that's right kid. Go on and hold your breath till Obama shows you his birth certificate.

Doesn't anybody honestly believe Hillary Clinton and John McCain, two people who would sell their own children (and grandchildren) to be President, would let Obama slip through the cracks if he were really not a U.S. citizen?

It seems weird to demand a citizen of Greece pretend to join a political party on a forum because he's liberal.

In my opinion the so called birthers, which is a pathetic name for a pathetic group of people, are not only racists but cowards.  One of the most profound things I ever heard was a statement made by a professor of philosophy I had my junior year who stated, I'm paraphrasing here,  "the cause of conspiracy theories is that we have an event when weighed against the cause of the event does not measure up so we as humans must construct a counter balance to this event for us to comprehend it and balance it in our minds." I brings this up because that is what i see in these pathetic people who call themselves birthers.  

I have tried to ignore their cries but it seems that this week has been a call out to all of these sad sacks. Throughtout the election I tried to categorize anti obama voters in to three categories, this is not to seem condescending but if it does i do apologize.  The anti-obama voters broke down thusly, those who were vehemently opposed to the political ideology of the democrats IE those reps who frequent this site,for the most part,; racist members of both parties yes both parties share these member shocking really, the white lady from West Virginia we all saw at the Hillary rally,; and those who saw obama as the culmination of a rapidly changing demographic inside the US.  The latter voters saw obama as the end game of a change, a different America so to speak, one in which they did not particularly believe in or want to subscribe to. This group was constantly labeled racist sadly by those who out of their own fear misidentified the root cause of their fear.

Now we come to the present and we see the latter groups of the anti obama voters sharing a conscience. The racist members of the voting and non voting block so angered by the election of a black man could not conceive it was done fairly and against their will.  Having exhausted the usually bogeymen of the so called liberal media and dark conspiratorial societies, IE the freemason and the Illuminati, have latched onto a completely fictitious belief that the president is somehow less of an American than them.  Always remember this it is the key underlying point, he is not like them. This alone would be of no concern, because lets face it the losing side of any election no matter how big or small creates a causation not do to them but due to their antagonistic who were the real cause of their downfall, however these fringe lunatics' cause has now been picked up by people who garner repsect amongst the populace at large.  Okay, to some degree they posses this.  When these cowards, who mostly fall in the group of people who see a changing America one they do not recognize, realized they to had no power to change what the perceived as ill conceived they needed a reason for this, one that balanced their feelings of being overwhelmed with the event that took place.  Thus, you have a marriage between semi-rational, used lightly, republicans and the fringe lunatics that originally started the birther movement.

If one wants to draw a parallel you could do so around the democrats who for years carried the banner of political assassination when referring to the murders of JFK, RFK, and MLK.  Both movements sprung from a disbelief in what was happening around them.  Sadly however, the newer birther movements roots are founded in the most vile part of the human existence. Ultimately my point being that the birther were a group created from the inability of racist to comprehend the election of a black man.  This group has now been further by another group of people who are in such disbelief that Americans could see a different society than the one of 1950's television that they need to construct similar radical causation.  The ultimate cause being that the unamerican American electorate was duped by a non member to radically alter the core foundations upon which the society which they hold dear was based, or so they want to believe.

I apologize for my rant I am long winded and I just can not help it man.

It's what Sarah Palin would want.

Far out, man, far out. Reminds me of McCain's "I don' trust him... he's an Arab" video from the campaign.

At first glance, I also get the impression that some people are easily confusing "natural-born citizen" with "U.S. citizen", suggesting that Obama is no American at all (which would make him what... a Kenyan citizen? a stateless person?). But that's not even the issue, I hope.

But I agree with htmldon that this "debate" only proves that conservative hacks are just as retarded as liberal hacks ("OMG, Bush stole the election again" etc.)

NP.......and welcome!

You'd think some of the birthers would be distracted by the "Jewish merchant harvesting kidneys" story from yesterday...

He probably can't comprehend English well enough to give an intelligent response.


The reason that he gave the certification of live birth in the first place was to squash such rumors against him. He started a whole website to debunking rumors about him. And of course his media protectors told us that he wanted to debunk the muslim rumors. So yeah, it is accurate to say that he is "eager to crush" rumors that he's somehoow not legitimate.

Why should the administration give any further credence to allegations that are unsubstantiated BS?

Has any other President of the United States had his natural-born American citizenship questioned to the extent this president has?

Yes.  Chester A. Arthur.  Born in Vermont - or, to his detractors, in Ireland and/or across the border in Canada.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, it seems.

Why won't Mr. Arthur reveal his birth certificate...?

Close.  The question asked (http://www.genealogue.com/2005/06/our-canadian-president.html) was "Why in —— don't the General come out and say where he was born, and put an end to all this mystery?"  Birth certificates weren't as common back then, when people were still born at home.  Births and significant events were often recorded in the family bible.

If you're into history, the parallels between the Obama and Arthur not "naturally born" claims are eerily similar.  They were raised by a lawyer who claimed to be from then-Vice Presidential nominee Arthur's party (Republican).  That lawyer later published a book, How A British Subject Became President of the United States, about the claim after Arthur became President due to Garfield's assassination.  Inconsistent claims were made that President Arthur was born in Ireland or Canada.  Plus, Arthur's mother was born in New Hampshire, anyway, probably making the whole point moot.  (His father was an itinerant preacher who moved from congregation to congregation - but unlike Obama's dad, didn't leave him.  That, plus an apparent lie about Arthur's year of birth, made the claim plausible).  And there were even claims that Chester wasn't President Arthur's real first name.

Edited to add: More here (http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1881/09/21&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar00212&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T) (continued here (http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1881/09/21&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar00213&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T)) from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, republishing its earlier 1880 coverage of the issue after President Garfield's assassination and death. 

That the doctor who was present at Chester Arthur's birth attested he was born in Vermont still wasn't enough for the lawyer, who published the book in 1884 (http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1884/06/02&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar00414&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T) (which was even circulated to delegates at the Republican National Convention that year).

Like I said, the more things change, the more they stay the same, it seems.

I think the whole idea that we should "trust a man by his word" is dead in this day and age. I cringe at the idea that in this day of identity theft, mass fraud, et al that we simply accept the fact that a man can become president based on his sworn word. While I fully believe that Obama is and always was an American citizen I think what's more important is that the process for applying to run for political office should be modernized as to prevent any potential future cases of fraud which may arise in the future. If I, as a regular US citizen is forced to provide my birth certificate to get a drivers license etc then it is clear to me that when running for any political office the proper credentials should be checked.

It's funny that no one gave McCain sh**t for being born in the Panama Canal zone.

It wasn't all that alive in Arthur's day, either.  He came out and flat out said he was born in Vermont.  It didn't stop the 19th century "birthers" from pressing on, though.


Nobody other than the New York Times, which published an article on the subject as part of its multiple attempts to slime McCain with innuendo, that is.  Plus, the question of whether a territorial birth makes you "naturally born" was pretty much settled by the Goldwater precedent.  Goldwater was born in the territory of Arizona.

I find his English is about as good, or better, than yours as far as analysis goes.

  Px does use insults too much, which you're attempting to do here, but... This doesn't have much to do with my "it seems weird" comment.  I just don't get what you're trying to do by demanding non-Americans join American political parties.  He probably should be "Other" -- depending on what he is in Greece -- but that orange is really ugly, and the vast majority of foreign posters here don't use it.

The State of Hawaii released an official record of Obama's birth certificate. We aren't going on his "sworn word," we are working off of the legal document provided by state government. You can't ask for more than that.

Your inclination may be to believe the Birthers are arguing in good faith, even if they are wrong--but they aren't. The State of Hawaii does not keep paper records of births. Lou Dobbs and friends are citing this as evidence of chicanery, but that dog won't hunt. To the best that anyone can officially document his birth, above and beyond the evidence provided by his family and friends that he was from Hawaii, it has been fully documented.

Come on, you knew it was coming. I'm only surprised what took him so long.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/27/inhofe_says_birthers_have_a_point.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/27/inhofe_says_birthers_have_a_point.html)

The elusive middle ground?

The Fallacy of the Middle Ground takes new meaning.

http://coloradoindependent.com/34027/mccain-campaign-investigated-and-dismissed-obama-citizenship-rumors (http://coloradoindependent.com/34027/mccain-campaign-investigated-and-dismissed-obama-citizenship-rumors)

While they ruled out any chance of the ‘birther’ lawsuits holding up in court, lawyers for the McCain campaign did check into the rumors about Obama’s birth and the assertions made by Berg and others. “To the extent that we could, we looked into the substantive side of these allegations,” said Potter. “We never saw any evidence that then-Senator Obama had been born outside of the United States. We saw rumors, but nothing that could be sourced to evidence. There were no statements and no documents that suggested he was born somewhere. On the other side, there was proof that he was born in Hawaii. There was a certificate issued by the state’s Department of Health, and the responsible official in the state saying that he had personally seen the original certificate. There was a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser, which would be very difficult to invent or plant 47 years in advance.”

(see 4th announcement from bottom left)

http://wikileaks.org/leak/obama-1961-birth-announcement-from-honolulu-advertiser.pdf (http://wikileaks.org/leak/obama-1961-birth-announcement-from-honolulu-advertiser.pdf)

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end of debate, please go home

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1o1p_ly7Yw&feature=player_embedded

House Republicans are very, very stupid people.

LOL!

Who was that loser who pretended to be looking for pens?

Are these people really that terrified of their wingnut base supporters that they can't answer yes to a guy from Huffington Post making a youtube video? Wow.

Uh...these Congressmen deal with the same thing daily, I think it's a bit absurd to say this was a special response to this guy.  They don't want to talk to someone, that's all it is.

Not to say that there aren't some loonies there.

Here is something interesting:

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/feature/2009/07/24/klein_dobbs/index.html (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/feature/2009/07/24/klein_dobbs/index.html)

"In 2001 - the state of Hawaii Health Department went paperless. Paper documents were discarded. The official record of Obama's birth is now an official ELECTRONIC record Janice Okubo, spokeswoman for the Health Department told the Honolulu Star Bulletin, "At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting," she said."



Waiting for Carl's latest conspiracy rationalisation.

The Bilderberg Illuminati obviously told them to do it so they could make Obama's fake long form nine iron shaken not stirred birth record. What a perfect coverup!!!!! Those bastards!!!!!

Can somebody tell me why a live birth record is somehow less credible than this so called long form birth record?

^

Because people are racist, you see.

I wasn't even talking about Obama but whatever.

Ok, but I think it's important to emphasize that we have never relied on a President's sworn word. Beyond the vetting of a President's biography that is part of any nomination and general election campaign, birth certificates are a matter of public record available to any one. Obama's birth certificate was released by the State of Hawaii before the election. As people often note with gun laws, current laws governing public records are sufficient to address this issue, were it actually one.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/roy-blunt-birtherism-a-legitimate-question-obama-has-produced-no-health-records-no-birth-certificate.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/roy-blunt-birtherism-a-legitimate-question-obama-has-produced-no-health-records-no-birth-certificate.php)

Atleast Trent Franks is not crazy on that issue, considering how he went on to rant about how Obama is a terrorist-loving baby-killing socialist.

Barack Obama has done more than enough to prove his citizenship. In fact, I think he has done too much.

He should stop being such a pussy and introduce legislation that nobody with an IQ lower than 85 should be allowed to vote. The same legislation should also containt a section requiring a mandatory IQ test for people who are questioning the legitimacy of the incumbent president.

IQ is horrible.

But it are can has predictive validity :(

I've been following the birther movement with some amusement lately, and I read an article on the Huffington Post that made some very interesting points. First of all, let's look at what the Constitution actually says on the matter:

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States. (Italics mine)

Think about it ... depending on your interpretation, "at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" could be interpreted to mean you have to be a native of the United States as it existed at the time of the adoption of the Constitution (1788) which means only the original 13 states qualify. To take it a little further, you have to have been a citizen in 1788, and I doubt there are many who can make that claim.

They should change their strategy -- instead of insisting that Obama was born in another country, they should assert that he was born on a different planet ... after all, he admitted to that!!

"I was actually born on Krypton, and sent here by my father, Jor-El, to save the planet Earth."

I've heard Orly Taitz is now searching the planet looking for some kryptonite...

What, am I supposed to be taking this seriously?

Don't let facts get in the way of these right wing fantasies ::) whatever you do

By the way, here is an interesting article in Slate about what could have happened in case there was indisputable proof that Obama was indeed born outside the US.

http://www.slate.com/id/2224167/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2224167/)