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1  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Winter is Coming (GoT is back) on: June 26, 2016, 09:14:58 pm
The Starks send their regards Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
2  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Northern Ireland Reunification: Support or Oppose? on: June 26, 2016, 03:10:16 pm
*snip*

Anyway as always with that whole area there I support whatever results in less people being blown up.

This
3  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Gubernatorial/Statewide Elections / Re: CA-GOV 2018-Kevin Faulconer declines to run on: June 26, 2016, 03:02:40 pm
Smart man.
4  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Sanders primary voters only on: June 26, 2016, 10:04:59 am
If Trump ran as a Democrat but had the exact same campaign, he'd never win the nomination, so it's a moot scenario. Actually I should ask who should I vote for if not Hillary? The implication seems to be I shouldn't because I don't think she'd be that great of a President, but that's not really the point to me. Because if Hillary simply implements generic Democrat policies and basically functions as Obama's third term (and I don't see any indication otherwise), then that's perfectly fine to me, and it goes without saying about how that is in comparison to a Trump presidency. That's the reason for my "hackery", not just blind party loyalty. I've said before that Hillary wouldn't even make my top 25 list of people I'd want to be President, even if just limited to political figures with a large enough profile to run, but being a crybaby and refusing to vote for her when she'd be at worst something like 75% as good as Obama especially in comparison to Trump is a pretty mind-bogglingly illogical action.

As far as her 2008 campaign goes, blaming her for the actions of her dumbest supporters is no more logical than blaming Sanders for those infamously idiot "Bernie Bro" Reddit supporters of his, and there's no reason to believe she supported any Birther or "Obama is a Muslim" rumors especially since those obviously did not help her in the Democratic primary. She did surround herself with some pretty odious (and in hindsight, hilariously incompetent) people like Mark Penn and Harold Ickes, but she's stayed far away from this time. I'm convinced that Hillary in 2008 was at worse a tragic villain, someone who probably had good intentions in her pursuit of power (I mostly certainly believe Hillary believed she was the most qualified person to be President in 2008 after all) and made some questionable moral decisions, but holy sh!t, how on Earth does that make her any worse than me? I'm reminded of a FANTASTIC Barney Frank quote from 2004, when he was asked how he could support John Kerry (during the primary) despite Kerry's then opposition to gay marriage. He replied "I've only voted for a perfect person once in my life. Once I ran for re-election, I wasn't perfect anymore."

But beyond all that, Obama has obviously forgiven her and the black community has, so some white person still holding it against her is almost kind of condescending. And judging her by her record after that, I don't see any issues. After all she was a fantastic Secretary of State, and seeing as how the people who tend to condemn her tenure as that as "too hawkish" tend to be the "RIP Gaddaffi Sad FF" types it's pretty clear why I don't take them seriously. Before his Senate career Obama had ties to the Daley machine and to the extremely odious slumlord and felon Tony Rezko, but none of that had any bearing on how he did as President and was a pointless thing to judge 2008 Obama on. And I think it's pretty obvious Hillary is not going to reveal herself as a closeted white supremacist after taking office, making her 2008 campaign completely moot today.

But ultimately the main reason why I wouldn't vote for anyone else is because from a point of pure rationality, there is no harm to me. Voting for Hillary, even if I didn't particularly like her (let's imagine this is 2008 and she won the nomination and I had plenty of bile toward her, but obviously would've voted for her over McCain in November) causes no harm to me whatsoever. So if she's the most tolerable candidate who has a chance of winning, for what reason do I have to note vote for her? I seriously can't think of any reason following basic rules of logic.

Regarding the race-baiting, it's pretty clear from Game Change that she was completely on board with that strategy and IIRC was pretty supportive of Billy Shaheen and Mark Penn (especially in private) when they came under fire for some of their racially charged attacks on Obama.  The difference with the BernieBros is that the BernieBros were random no-name nutters (and ftr, I do think that Sanders deserves quite a bit of criticism for refusing to condemn the actions of his supporters at the Nevada Democratic Convention, at the time I'd held out hope that he'd do the right thing and when he didn't, it really lowered my opinion of him).  In 2008, the race-baiting was done by prominent members of Hillary's campaign team like Mark Penn, Billy Shaheeen (her NH campaign chair, who implied that Obama might've once been a drug dealer who sold people cocaine IIRC), and surrogates like Bob Kerrey (who had a period where he couldn't seem to say Obama's name without mentioning the word "Muslim" in the same sentence).  I obviously don't think Hillary is a closet white supremacist or anything crazy like that, but does that make it any better? 

Yes, politics is a dirty business and the African-American community seems to have moved on, but what does it say about her that she'd use such repulsive and destructive tactics?  Is someone who would think nothing of dividing America against itself like that really the sort of leader we need?  Personally, I think we've had far too much of that sort of thing already.  That said, I think there is some truth to what you say about how everyone at this level in politics has their flaws (I don't think Feingold has ever done anything even remotely sketchy, but he's one in twenty million).  In fairness, I've voted for some folks whose views are either different than mine on issues that I'm extremely passionate about (Strickland on gun control) and candidates who have far worse character flaws than Hillary circa 2008 (Paula Brooks when she ran against Tiberi in 2010...and I had a front row seat to that cringefest)

Part of why I'm trying so hard to keep an open mind regarding Hillary is that "country first" really means something to me (cliche as that sounds).  It's obviously no secret don't like Hillary, but she'd be infinitely better than Trump.  However, I also don't believe in voting for a candidate entirely as a vote against someone else (that's what write-ins are for).  I tried that with Sanders in the Ohio primary and now I don't feel too proud of that vote given how he's conducted himself from the Nevada Democratic Convention onward (especially after it became clear he was going to squander any chance to get meaningful concessions by basically being a sore loser).  I don't consider it a wasted vote, but I'm pretty conflicted about it, now that I have the benefit of hindsight. 

That said, if I truly believed there was a real chance that my vote would decide whether Trump became President, I'd vote for Hillary over him in a heartbeat because I could never live with myself if I didn't.  However, I don't think my vote will come even close to deciding this, no matter what happens.  As a result, I feel like I also have a bit more leeway in terms of using my vote do express my frustration with the two awful choices that we've been presented with.  I'm not voting for Gary Johnson for obvious ideological reason and Jill Stein seems pretty awful.  As a result, the logical course of action seems to be a protest vote using the write-in option.

Kaine is objectively the safest pick and the best "do no harm" pick.  I don't think Warren would be super-influential as Veep, but it would be at least a little reassuring to see Hillary go the more progressive route even though it isn't the most politically expedient option.  I realize it'd be basically throwing a bone to folks like myself, but at this point I'll settle for that.  Plus, it could hypothetically position Warren to run for President in 2024.  It's more about Hillary showing that she's even remotely capable of going in a more progressive direction rather than the safest, most politically expedient direction. 

Regarding foreign policy, my main concerns with her hawkishness are that 1) she'll get us involved in Syria (personally, I'd rather we not have a repeat of the Iraq War, but maybe that's just me Tongue ) and 2) I think that she tends to be inherently hawkish on foreign policy in general (and in the moment, the expedient political position is often the more hawkish one, irrespective of whether it makes any sense) to the point that I question whether she'll exhaust all diplomatic options in future crises before making dumb "line in the sand" comments like the one Obama made about Syria.  That sort of rhetoric can escalate extremely quickly and is often completely unnecessary; you have to be extremely careful about imposing "if _______ happens and/or if so-and-so doesn't do _____ in (insert amount of time), we'll put troops on the ground and/or overthrow the government" ultimatums.  One of the best things about Obama's Presidency is that he has been extremely cautious and careful when responding to international crises (with the exception of his initial handling of Syria, although even then, we ended up dodging the bullet).  That's something that has really been missing from American foreign policy for quite some time and I am not at all convinced that Hillary would be a third term of Obama in that regard. 

And again, there are is the e-mail scandal (which, and I can't stress this enough, is completely different than the congressional Republicans' ridiculous Banghazi witch-hunt; Hillary should thank the GOP for making them synonymous in most voters' minds Tongue).  What worries me most about this scandal, even more than the scandal itself, is how it fits into the consistent (and frankly, rather Nixonian) pattern of behavior and lack of transparency (even for a politician at their level) we've seen from both Bill and Hillary ever since the former was elected President in 1992.  The fact that so little seems to have changed is, I think, a pretty legitimate cause for concern.
5  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Opinion of Malcolm X (poster) on: June 26, 2016, 06:51:42 am
He seems so tense all of time. He's not a bad guy, he just needs to relax sometimes.

Yeah, that's been a problem for me ever since I was little; I hope no one takes it personally.
6  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Should a college degree be required to vote? on: June 25, 2016, 06:55:12 pm
Obviously no.  Jesus Christ.  Why don't you just throw in a poll tax and a DNA test while you're at it?
7  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Sanders primary voters only on: June 25, 2016, 04:41:18 pm
Write-in unless Hillary picks Warren as her running-mate.

But it's the Hillary supporters are the whiny sore winners. Roll Eyes

Given that my reasons for doing this have nothing to do with Sanders (whom I supported for mainly as an anti-Clinton protest vote), I'm not sure what your point here.  As I've said elsewhere, I'd already resolved to vote write-in if she was the nominee before the Iowa Caucuses.  And no, I'm not saying all Hillary supporters are whiney sore winners, just a number of the ones of Atlas.  At least they're hacks for someone they think would be a good President.  I'm pretty sure you'd be a Trump hack if he was the Democratic nominee, but everything else about his candidacy was the same.
Write-in unless Hillary picks Warren as her running-mate.

Dude, you seriously want to live with President Drumpf? You don't even have the excuse that your State won't be in play.

No, a write-in does not equal a vote for Trump.  I don't like Sanders that much and Hillary is even worse.  If the Democrats want my vote, they should've run someone worth voting for.  I don't need an excuse for casting a protest vote, it's a perfectly legitimate use of one's vote.  I have an open mind and want to be convinced that Hillary's not as bad I think (obviously Trump is way worse, but that's beside the point), but that hasn't happened yet.  So with all due respect, folks like BRTD, Bedstuy, and yourself can take your entitled, patronizing whining and stick it where the sun don't shine Smiley  The Democratic Party isn't entitled to my vote and neither is Hillary.  

Try making a case for Hillary.  It'd also be nice to see her supporters acknowledge and address the legitimate concerns about her (such as her hawkishness, her use of race-baiting, the e-mail scandal, etc) instead of just acting like she's the messiah.  FTR, I do think she has to deal with far more crap than many politicians due to the fact that she's a woman, but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms that her supporters seem unable or unwilling to address.

Enough reason to vote for her bus to replace Scalia.

Her hawkishness? http://www.vox.com/world/2016/5/27/11608580/donald-trump-foreign-policy-war-iraq-hillary-clinton

Race baiting? Who won the black vote in a landslide?

And you dislike her over s Republican witch hunt issue?

- Replacing Scalia is a reason to vote for any generic Democrat.  I'm talking about reasons to vote for Hillary specifically, not against the Republican (I'm already doing that).    

- Again, I'm talking about Hillary's foreign policy views, not Trump's gibberish.  Hillary is infinitely better than Trump, but that's a pretty low bar.  

- Obama won it in a landslide in 2008, so your argument there (which is basically a large-scale version of "But...but...but ________ has black friends") doesn't even work on its own terms.  

- The Bengahzi non-sense was a witch hunt.  The business with her e-mails is a legitimate scandal and while not one of the main reasons I dislike her, certainly is cause for concern.

So you're sore that Hillary won, not that Sanders lost. I don't see the difference.

As for the "race baiting", I'm sure if 80% or so of black voters could "forgive" her for it, you can too. On that note, much of the supposed "race baiting" was overblown or completely fabricated anyway. Mentioning RFK's assassination as an example of a campaign that went into June, while in context also mentioning her husband's campaign in 1992, is not hoping for Obama to be assassinated. The 3 AM ad had nothing to do with race. Sorry to burst the bubble here. Her comments about "hard working white Americans" and Bill's SC comments were dumb, I'll give you that. But I do find it funny that the "progressives" who constantly dismissed the entire South throughout the primary season did not get nearly as much attention as Bill dismissing a single state did...

Of the incidents you mentioned, only one was one of the things I was referring to (Bill's SC comments).  The RFK comment was dumb, but not race-baiting or even racist.  I don't even remember the "hard-working white person thing."  The constant mention of cocaine when her surrogates said anything about Obama, the fact that her campaign started the "Obama is really a Muslim" and birther comments were clearly race-baiting and by all accounts she was 110% in favor of using that tactic.  As for people who argued the South shouldn't have a say in the primary process, I was never one of them nor have I ever held that view, so that's not really relevant.

I do find it telling that I've asked in good faith to hear the case *for* Hillary and no one has made a serious attempt to provide me with one.  If anything, there seems to be some restentment (at least from BRTD) about the idea that her being the Democratic nominee isn't a good enough reason for every Democrat.  Rather entitled, don't you think?  I want to be convinced.  I don't know, Polnut seems pretty thoughtful, maybe he can do a better job explaining what I'm missing here.  *shrug*
8  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Guess the previous poster's real name on: June 25, 2016, 03:40:50 pm
John?
9  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Best and Worst Senators of the Past 50 Years: Michigan on: June 25, 2016, 03:39:42 pm
Hart/Griffin
10  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Winter is Coming (GoT is back) on: June 25, 2016, 02:59:51 pm
Didn't Euron claim to have the Dragonbinder in the TV show?  If I'm not just imagining details from the books into the show (which sadly I frequently have trouble with) then Euron will obviously make some type of attempt to hijack the dragons.

No, there's been no mention of it.
11  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Sanders primary voters only on: June 25, 2016, 02:00:07 pm
Write-in unless Hillary picks Warren as her running-mate.

But it's the Hillary supporters are the whiny sore winners. Roll Eyes

Given that my reasons for doing this have nothing to do with Sanders (whom I supported for mainly as an anti-Clinton protest vote), I'm not sure what your point here.  As I've said elsewhere, I'd already resolved to vote write-in if she was the nominee before the Iowa Caucuses.  And no, I'm not saying all Hillary supporters are whiney sore winners, just a number of the ones of Atlas.  At least they're hacks for someone they think would be a good President.  I'm pretty sure you'd be a Trump hack if he was the Democratic nominee, but everything else about his candidacy was the same.
Write-in unless Hillary picks Warren as her running-mate.

Dude, you seriously want to live with President Drumpf? You don't even have the excuse that your State won't be in play.

No, a write-in does not equal a vote for Trump.  I don't like Sanders that much and Hillary is even worse.  If the Democrats want my vote, they should've run someone worth voting for.  I don't need an excuse for casting a protest vote, it's a perfectly legitimate use of one's vote.  I have an open mind and want to be convinced that Hillary's not as bad I think (obviously Trump is way worse, but that's beside the point), but that hasn't happened yet.  So with all due respect, folks like BRTD, Bedstuy, and yourself can take your entitled, patronizing whining and stick it where the sun don't shine Smiley  The Democratic Party isn't entitled to my vote and neither is Hillary.  

Try making a case for Hillary.  It'd also be nice to see her supporters acknowledge and address the legitimate concerns about her (such as her hawkishness, her use of race-baiting, the e-mail scandal, etc) instead of just acting like she's the messiah.  FTR, I do think she has to deal with far more crap than many politicians due to the fact that she's a woman, but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms that her supporters seem unable or unwilling to address.

Enough reason to vote for her bus to replace Scalia.

Her hawkishness? http://www.vox.com/world/2016/5/27/11608580/donald-trump-foreign-policy-war-iraq-hillary-clinton

Race baiting? Who won the black vote in a landslide?

And you dislike her over s Republican witch hunt issue?

- Replacing Scalia is a reason to vote for any generic Democrat.  I'm talking about reasons to vote for Hillary specifically, not against the Republican (I'm already doing that).    

- Again, I'm talking about Hillary's foreign policy views, not Trump's gibberish.  Hillary is infinitely better than Trump, but that's a pretty low bar.  

- Obama won it in a landslide in 2008, so your argument there (which is basically a large-scale version of "But...but...but ________ has black friends") doesn't even work on its own terms.  

- The Bengahzi non-sense was a witch hunt.  The business with her e-mails is a legitimate scandal and while not one of the main reasons I dislike her, certainly is cause for concern.
12  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Sanders primary voters only on: June 25, 2016, 06:20:37 am
Write-in unless Hillary picks Warren as her running-mate.

Dude, you seriously want to live with President Drumpf? You don't even have the excuse that your State won't be in play.

No, a write-in does not equal a vote for Trump.  I don't like Sanders that much and Hillary is even worse.  If the Democrats want my vote, they should've run someone worth voting for.  I don't need an excuse for casting a protest vote, it's a perfectly legitimate use of one's vote.  I have an open mind and want to be convinced that Hillary's not as bad I think (obviously Trump is way worse, but that's beside the point), but that hasn't happened yet.  So with all due respect, folks like BRTD, Bedstuy, and yourself can take your entitled, patronizing whining and stick it where the sun don't shine Smiley  The Democratic Party isn't entitled to my vote and neither is Hillary.  

Try making a case for Hillary.  It'd also be nice to see her supporters acknowledge and address the legitimate concerns about her (such as her hawkishness, her use of race-baiting, the e-mail scandal, etc) instead of just acting like she's the messiah.  FTR, I do think she has to deal with far more crap than many politicians due to the fact that she's a woman, but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms that her supporters seem unable or unwilling to address.
13  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Scottish independence: Support or oppose? on: June 24, 2016, 09:47:19 pm
Opposed then, on the fence now
14  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Best and Worst Senators of the Past 50 Years: Massachusetts on: June 24, 2016, 08:20:08 pm
I'd like to remind everyone that Kennedy committed manslaughter.

Yes, but his last name was Kennedy, so he must be a great guy!

And Robert was a McCarthyite. and John slept around.

Kennedy was a great Senator and a bad person.

And?  He still committed manslaughter.  He belonged in a jail cell, not Congress.
15  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: GPS AND THE TURN-BY-TURN WAR ON MEN (headline modified by Torie) on: June 24, 2016, 06:30:50 pm
This article is the most pathetic thing I've seen in quite some time.
16  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Best and Worst Senators of the Past 50 Years: Massachusetts on: June 24, 2016, 06:20:58 pm
I'd like to remind everyone that Kennedy committed manslaughter.
17  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Sanders primary voters only on: June 24, 2016, 06:19:56 pm
Write-in unless Hillary picks Warren as her running-mate.
18  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Congressional Elections / Re: FL-09 Democratic Primary- Gravis Marketing on: June 24, 2016, 06:18:07 pm
lol gravis
19  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Winter is Coming (GoT is back) on: June 24, 2016, 06:03:55 pm
One other finale prediction: Iím guessing that thereís a good chance that weíll have a scene checking in with Sam?  I mean, at some point heís got to reach Oldtown, right?  Iím wondering if they saved Samís arrival in Oldtown for the finale because heís actually going to discover something pretty interesting about the White Walkers there right off the bat?  Something thatís finale-worthy, thatíll provide a good tease for next year.


I hope not, there's really no time.
20  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Question for gun lovers on: June 23, 2016, 05:35:15 pm
Maybe I should host a range day invitation to all atlas members for gun safety and target shooting.  Would actually be a good thing to help educate people about guns.   

Personal note...  My best friend and his partner were anti gun but went to a range with me and really enjoyed it.  Actually changed their opinion on gun ownership. 

In any case, carrying three weapons with you wherever you go is absurd and terrifying. That shouldn't be a "basic right" in the Bill of Rights - what if you were a psycho? You could easily kill so many people...

I am a sheepdog.  Wink

No, you just have delusions of grandeur.
21  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Your 5 favorite posters on: June 23, 2016, 06:31:18 am
Lumine
Kalwejt
Dereich
Al Realpolitik
Alcon (he doesn't post often, but his handling of the modleaks aftermath really set the standard for forum mods)
22  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Question for gun lovers on: June 23, 2016, 06:22:52 am
I carry everyday, sometimes 2 guns and a knife.  Sometimes openly or concealed.

Sometimes you carry 2 guns and a knife on your person? What possible reason do you have for this? Do you live in Somalia or something?


Primary weapon and back up 380 on my ankle . The knife is more of a get the f◊◊◊ off me and or utility tool.  Ever saw someone trapped in a car wreck and couldn't get out because the seat belt?    Depending on circumstances or attire limitations i may only carry one gun.

In light of recent events the mini 14 will be in the car.

I swear, you're like something out of a stereotype coloring book.
23  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: John Lewis leads sit-in on House Floor to pass gun control legislation. on: June 23, 2016, 06:16:09 am


As someone  in favor of most gun control I LOLed

As did I; this was actually pretty funny.
24  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Congressional Elections / Re: FL-Sen: Rubio vs. Beruff vs. Wilcox vs. Murphy vs. Grayson on: June 23, 2016, 05:58:11 am
Did anyone other than Adam T and I actually read the article?  There really isn't anything that damaging in it.  
25  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Congressional Elections / Re: Patrick Murphy's Senate Campaign on: June 23, 2016, 05:55:26 am
As I wrote in two other threads:

1.The story said it took him nine times to pass the CPA final exam.  And?  He passed it in the end.

2.The story said he was certified in Colorado and not Florida, but that he was working for a CPA firm in Florida.  And?  CPA firms hire lots of non-certified people with a background in bookkeeping or accounting.  I would guess that in most firms, the largest number of employees, if not the majority, are 3rd level accounting students who do the grunt work.

At most, they showed that Murphy stretched the truth in his claim that he was a CPA, when he only had a certification as a CPA in Colorado and not in Florida.  I could see a problem if Murphy claimed to be a partner in the firm or a senior accountant, but the story presented no evidence of anything like that.

3.The story referred to 'accounting experts who suspect Murphy...'  So, no names given, just 'experts' who have 'suspicions' but no evidence or proof.  Textbook yellow journalism.

I thought the second half of the story on Murphy's claim that he was a 'small business owner' were fairer. Based on that story,  he should refer to himself as an executive in a family owned business and not as a small business owner.  Still, if Rapist Trump's only lie was that he was 'self made' and not that he lies about everything all the time, I wouldn't consider that to be a very big deal.

So, if that's the only evidence that Patrick Murphy lies or stretches the truth, I'd say there isn't much there. I'll wait for the second part of this 'expose', but I'd take it with a grain of salt, as the first half of the first part was either a deliberate hatchet job or was based on a complete misunderstanding of how accounting firms operate.

The story promised to be an 'expose' to determine whether Patrick Murphy is qualified to be a U.S Senator, so I assume Part II will be about his time in the U.S House.

I'm not trying to defend Patrick Murphy as he clearly was not honest in referring to himself as a 'small business owner' as he did in the second half of this 'expose' if that one family owned operation was, in fact, all his claim was based on, but much of the first half of the story I think can be accurately called yellow journalism, and if stretching a resume are all they have, I'd say it's not a very major expose.

This, Murphy will still win the primary and the general.  There's really nothing to see here.  Of course most people don't seem to read articles before posting about them, so I'm not surprised so few people realized this was a sloppy hatchet job at best.
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