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8851  General Discussion / History / Re: Adolph Hitler's Biggest Mistake on: January 06, 2008, 08:55:51 pm
His biggest mistake was not focusing enough on the African front; instead considering it a side show which had been brought about by Mussolini's stupidity to the main showpiece in Russia. Had Hitler been more canny he would have realized that by defeating the British Army in Egypt he would create access for him to the middle east and the resources (and often sympathetic populations..) that that would imply.

Say if Rommell had won El-Alamein and had pushed the British back to Central Arabia it would significantly increased his opportunities without even needing to invade Russia; Turkey for example might have declared for the Axis if it thought Germany would have a significant chance of winning the region. Which would of course have opened a new invasion possibility in the Russian Front - via the Cacasuas (which is what Hitler wanted anyway..)

Couple questions...

1.  Do you think Hitler could have seriously weakened the British in North Africa (and elsewhere) by making fabulous promises and guarantees to the French (Vichy), Spanish and Turks?  Something like, "you attack the Brits on land and sea and you can have XXXX."  In the case of Vichy, let them have British colonies in West Africa and the Caribbean...in the case of Spain, Gibraltar and perhaps some Atlantic Islands like St. Helena...in the case of the Turks, British-controlled Iraq and Palestine.

2.   Even if Rommel had won at Alamein, the Brits would just fall back to Alexandria...and then Cairo.  Rommel's supply lines would be stretched even thinner.  Or do you think there would be a renewed effort to reduce Malta and gain total superiority over the air and sealanes? 



1. Yes. If Hitler applied his Resources away from Russia and into Africa. The colonial aspect of the war though is something I'm not particularly good on so I won't comment.

2. Malta? Oh Absolutely. Its survival was miracle and was mainly down to the excessive focus on the Eastern Front by Hitler. Had he been smart he would have waited and not try to fight so many wars at once.
8852  General Discussion / History / Re: Do you think Dwight Eisenhower was a good President? on: January 06, 2008, 03:48:57 pm
He was a foreign policy disaster - even from a "US Interests" POV (perhaps more so actually, considering that when Eisenhower and the US interfered in the Suez crisis in order to 'calm down' Eden & the French (which was one of the best moments of his presidency) the Americans will widely seen as "the good guys" in the Arab world over the imperalist French & English....... *sigh*
8853  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: How has the Atlas changed your political views? on: January 05, 2008, 08:22:37 pm
I don't think an individuals healthcare is the responsibility of society. 

And we're never going to "run out of fossil fuels", it will eventually become to expensive to get out of the ground what it's worth on the open market, but we'll never "run out".  The market will take care of the rest (unless the govt farks it up with ethanol subsidies and other "hand of govt" manipulations of the market).

Clearly the Free market is so magical that it does not all dependant on such trifles like the level of available of natural resources.
8854  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Most conservative Western country on: January 05, 2008, 07:14:50 pm
Does it matter what your opinion on the things are though? The bottom line is, in the US, supporting free trade is considered right wing. Period, end of story, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to change it. I am left wing on this issue and you are right wing. And you are more conservative than me, even (perhaps especially) in the "moral" sense.

What if you support Free trade with International unionization as well?

I admit I am a conservative on plently things (yes I know that contradicts stuff I said earlier but don't take me literally.) the problem is I guess is that I still prefer to use the traditional defintions of the word which are still used here - to an extent.
8855  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Most conservative Western country on: January 05, 2008, 05:28:01 pm
You forget that Bono is Bono. At a guess he's defining "left" as meaning "more state control" and "right" as meaning "less state control".

So... he's defining "conservative" as "left-wing", or what?

I can't see any metric or definition of "conservative" whatsoever that would make Canada in the contest for the most conservative Western country.

Well, the number of days to starting a business is only 3--compare with 5 on the US. Your overall weighted tariff rate is only 0.9%, compared with 1.7% in the US. Your top income tax rate is less than the US one, AND you have less brackets, meaning the tax is flatter. However, it's true that tax revenue as a share of GDP is higher in Canada (likely due to the national VAT which Steven Harper promised to abolish and then raised *ahem*). Your labor market flexibility, while not beating the US's, is still in the top 20. And your Provinces have much more power than US states (possibly the only federal entities with a comparable level of self-government are Swiss cantons). The only issue where you're actually significantly to the left of the US is health care, and even then you're now moving away from single payer (I'm not aying you're moving away from universal coverage, note).

Yes but what does this have to do with Conservatism. I always believed that conservatism was about preserving "traditional" values and stuff. It's also very funny how being against protectionism is now considered "conservative".

So being economically right wing is not conservative? Roll Eyes Of course that's the standard load of sh!t I'd expect from you.

I was going right out a big long post why you are, yet again, wrong but it got lost in the computer wash and so I'll keep this short enough. There are many purposes to protectionism but one of its major goals is to keep Capital within the country where the trade barriers have been implented and to keep competition out of the marketplace within these countries. This is a scientific economic fact.

Ergo protectionism often ends up benefiting redundant industries and the very rich who run them. It also benefits a highly centralized state and thus the elite. It also beligerent towards other states due to obvious trading impediments and is very localist and nationalist in its approach. I thought the left was opposed to these things. *

You can of course be Anti-NAFTA (which isn't really a free trade agreement as such) and Anti-protectionist; but you with your Nolan chart view of politics may not be able to see that.


* - This I know is a slight simplification as the Truth is always more complicated in that magical place we call "real life" but my sublities unfortunetly got lost with my long post.. tariff protection in the United States would very different from the application of tariffs in say, Burkina Faso. But the record of using trade barriers to built up national industry (unless you have a *significant* national resource ie. Oil) is very bad and one can only look at the history of Modern Ireland to show it. But of course the US has gone well past the stage of needing "industrial development".
8856  General Discussion / History / Re: Adolph Hitler's Biggest Mistake on: January 05, 2008, 04:10:49 pm
His biggest mistake was not focusing enough on the African front; instead considering it a side show which had been brought about by Mussolini's stupidity to the main showpiece in Russia. Had Hitler been more canny he would have realized that by defeating the British Army in Egypt he would create access for him to the middle east and the resources (and often sympathetic populations..) that that would imply.

Say if Rommell had won El-Alamein and had pushed the British back to Central Arabia it would significantly increased his opportunities without even needing to invade Russia; Turkey for example might have declared for the Axis if it thought Germany would have a significant chance of winning the region. Which would of course have opened a new invasion possibility in the Russian Front - via the Cacasuas (which is what Hitler wanted anyway..)
8857  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Losing an Edge, Japanese Envy India’s Schools on: January 05, 2008, 11:16:07 am
The Japanese Education system is one of the most Authoritian and least student friendly in the world (at least out of the 1st world.); the idea that copying them is desirable is pretty sad really.
8858  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: what would a generic obama victory look like? assuming richardson as veep on: January 04, 2008, 06:58:07 pm
LOL, look up the definition of socialist please.

He's using it correctly.  He's not calling Edwards a communist, but a socialist... one who believes in income redistribution through services for those who are in need (he is campaigning as the person for the poor and working class).  And when you take your mind out of the straight line "leftist" and "rightist" scale, liberals and conservatives cross each other in some points on socialism.

Actually that isn't what Socialism meant traditionally and certainly not by Marx, Engels or the earlier "utopian Socialists" or etc... It is though what it has come to mean pretty much everywhere because at some point in history Socialism began to equate to "supporting public sector unions".
8859  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Predict how the previous forumite will die on: January 04, 2008, 02:52:57 pm
Put to the wall as a traitor when the Third Reich is resurrected.
8860  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Most conservative Western country on: January 04, 2008, 02:28:15 pm
A few decades back Ireland was a rather conservative country, in some ways it still is (but how many countries can you not say that of?), but things have changed a lot since then. The majority view of Ireland amongst Americans is over a century old o/c.

You could make a pretty strong case that in the 1940s and 1950s the Catholic Church had at least equal standing in power to the government in Ireland.

Of course nothing is even close to the case now.

As for the American view of Ireland... well... I guess "Quaint" is the least irritating adjective I could use.

@Snowguy: The teaching of history is ridiculously bad here also.... but that is for another thread.
8861  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Most conservative Western country on: January 04, 2008, 11:06:54 am
I've ignored the whole "Ireland" debate in this thread but I have point out what "conservatism" means in Ireland and "conservatism" means in America are two very different things. For a start most Catholic conservatives (note: Most) that I know of in Ireland are very anti neo-liberal.

Also I don't think Ireland is an ideologically conservative country, because Ireland isn't an ideological country (well maybe within the "perceived" Dublin 4 but nowhere else.) and while Divorce was illegal until 1995 and Abortion still is I think it is important to point out that the arguements often used against both Divorce and Abortion have (usually) been secular and based on compassionate ("Don't let Children lose their parents, etc) arguements rather than ideological right-wing ones.

Actually the emergence of a very small conservative catholic movement (see: Justin Barrett or this now thankfully it seems defunct Internet Magazine) came about with the rise  of a more liberal mentality in Ireland in the 1990s (well actually I would argue that but this is the "consensus" view of history here, plus I'm summarizing and ergo simplifying.) which also coincided with the emergence of a more globalized and American style economy. See why the majority of conservative catholics don't like the Celtic Tiger much?
8862  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Most conservative Western country on: January 04, 2008, 10:42:01 am
You forget that Bono is Bono. At a guess he's defining "left" as meaning "more state control" and "right" as meaning "less state control".

So... he's defining "conservative" as "left-wing", or what?

I can't see any metric or definition of "conservative" whatsoever that would make Canada in the contest for the most conservative Western country.

Well, the number of days to starting a business is only 3--compare with 5 on the US. Your overall weighted tariff rate is only 0.9%, compared with 1.7% in the US. Your top income tax rate is less than the US one, AND you have less brackets, meaning the tax is flatter. However, it's true that tax revenue as a share of GDP is higher in Canada (likely due to the national VAT which Steven Harper promised to abolish and then raised *ahem*). Your labor market flexibility, while not beating the US's, is still in the top 20. And your Provinces have much more power than US states (possibly the only federal entities with a comparable level of self-government are Swiss cantons). The only issue where you're actually significantly to the left of the US is health care, and even then you're now moving away from single payer (I'm not aying you're moving away from universal coverage, note).

Yes but what does this have to do with Conservatism. I always believed that conservatism was about preserving "traditional" values and stuff. It's also very funny how being against protectionism is now considered "conservative".
8863  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Choice chain for the new year! on: January 04, 2008, 06:10:14 am
Hobsbawn. I liked Bandits. Never read Thompson, he always sounded to me like a bit of a left-wing idealist hack (an English Howard Zinn..)

The ghost of Christmas Past or The ghost of Christmas Future.
8864  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: How has the Atlas changed your political views? on: January 03, 2008, 03:30:31 pm
Admittedly I used to be rather impressionable but eventually outgrew that annoying tendency. I generally prefer to avoid letting random strangers from an Internet forum influence me more than necessary, though the various irritating obsessions associated with our beloved resident hacks sometimes nudge me in the opposite direction if they are sufficiently pervasive. If nothing else, the Atlas forum has certainly helped me discover how much I truly detest politics.

This posts reminds me why I think Everett, when she posts, is one of the few sane people on the forum.

One or two members of this forum (ie. not many) have certainly put things in a different perspective for me (*cough* Al *cough*) but I don't think it has changed my views much.

Oh and this too:

made me hate libertarians.
8865  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Should it be illegal to have more than $10k in cash without government appro on: January 03, 2008, 03:23:50 pm
David is right.  The government hates it if you pay cash.  The government, as well as corporations, would prefer that we all used credit for everything, for obvious reasons.  Makes it easier for the government to spy on us, and easier for credit companies to track our every purchase and use it for marketing information.

The more people who use imaginary money to pay for what they want, the better for everyone in power.

Of course you do realize that money itself is a completely imaginary good.

Personally I always prefer to pay in Cash; but then again at my age you don't make too much big transactions.
8866  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Three posters least likely to ever live in a suburb on: January 03, 2008, 03:18:10 pm
Gully was owned the same way Naso often is when he says something blatantly incorrect and is immediately shot down, such as when he says that the 1968 and 1952 elections are proof America won't vote for an anti-war candidate.

He made an inaccurate statement due to having never seen anything that would have told him otherwise.  I really think you're the only one who cares.  It would be one thing if he did not admit error, but he immediately did... you know, kind of like how rational people operate.

But he didn't back down from the inaccurate statement after be rebuked. After I told him you live in a suburb he made that nonsensical statement to defend his claim which I still don't understand after reading several times...of course he does that a lot such as how he claims he can have conservative views and yet still be 0% conservative and how loving alcohol and strip clubs somehow makes you conservative.

You know BRTD you shouldn't take what I say literally.
8867  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Your first impression of the preceding member on: January 03, 2008, 03:04:53 pm
Yet another Connecticut republican.
8868  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: What was your schooling? on: January 03, 2008, 03:02:20 pm
Fee-Paying in the Irish lexicon; which is to say I (or rather my parents) paid for my education while the school remained within the state system and curriculum. Though it should be noted that in Ireland the government has never a high degree of regulation over the schools as in other European countries.

It was a collossal waste of money.
8869  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Most conservative Western country on: January 03, 2008, 03:00:38 pm
Ha!

8870  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: What's your opinion, in general, of the preceding poster? on: December 31, 2007, 06:41:26 pm
Seems Fairly Typical if more articulate of many on this forum and the internets as a whole. Oh, btw we share a birthday!
8871  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: will Stephane Dion ever be PM of Canada? on: December 31, 2007, 05:58:48 pm
ftr, I never said anything good about Justin Trudeau, just that he's the party's likely next leader.

What about Michael Ignatieff?

Also having just wikied I see that Trudeau isn't even an MP yet.. and his would be riding isn't even a liberal hold; unless having the surname "Trudeau" gets you a massive boost in Montreal.
8872  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Choice chain for the new year! on: December 31, 2007, 04:02:56 pm
My Favourite movie I suppose. Though alot depends on what you mean by favourite. Putting on my 'Intellectual-semi-pretentious' hat says Once Upon a time in America, Putting on my 'Childhood Nostalgia' hat Back to the Future Part II, Putting on my 'I need to relax' hat The Truman Show, Putting on my 'Retro Noir' hat Kiss Me Deadly, Putting on my 'Stupid mindless Brain freeze hat Big trouble in Little China.

Suburbs or Ralph Nader.
8873  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Three posters least likely to ever live in a suburb on: December 31, 2007, 03:59:52 pm
End of year bump.

I love this thread just because of the brutal and extreme ownage Gully received.

Roll Eyes

God you are so petty.
8874  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Appropriate Irish political party for the preceding poster? on: December 30, 2007, 07:57:34 pm
Neither of course. Probably settle into Fine Gael with advancing age, decreasing radicalism, and increasing boredom.

No, you've got me confused with farmers.

Anyway I can't imagine my boredom being much higher than it is at present. I'm really only at this forum recently because I was struck down with a minor flu; which means great annoyance to my life and a need to heal at home while doing nothing.

Of course, Colin Wixted would make a great member of the United Ireland Party (FG) - His Americanized accent would win lots of votes in South Dublin alone..
8875  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: are you more conservative or liberal than the preceding atlasian? on: December 30, 2007, 06:01:25 pm
Hard to be more conservative.. So more liberal.
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