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8851  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: are you more conservative or liberal than the preceding atlasian? on: January 16, 2008, 08:18:30 pm
Liberal
8852  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: opinion of this picture on: January 16, 2008, 07:23:27 pm
You should have written "Nihilists for Mitt Romney" though perhaps doing that in South Carolina would have been more appropriate.
8853  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: What is your opinion of this Part 2. Also graphic!!! on: January 16, 2008, 06:46:02 pm
Hey David S, when you see pictures of children dying of starvation in Africa, nothing gets your blood boiling more than the idea that the US should invest in foreign aid, right?

A substantial amount of that Aid it should be pointed out (Certainly NOT ALL OF IT though) ends up leading towards pictures of dead children in Africa, not stopping it.
8854  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Is the Christian Right comparable to Fundamentalist Islam? on: January 16, 2008, 06:44:42 pm
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Well, the Roman Church held a pretty much uncontested position for almost a thousand years, and yet the reformers were still right in challenging it.  That's just appeal to tradition.

To be pedantic, it had always been contested. But until Luther got lucky; none of those opponents could ever have any chance of any success or power outside of their particular area. The Hussites and the Waldensians were as legitmate as any later reformer.

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That said, my linking of the Bible and politics is more negative than positive. I don't try to prove my position from the Bible, but I do argue with people who claim my position is inconsistent with it.

I never said it wasn't. Just it can't be used to base on policy alone. Which means we agree in an odd way.

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Proving too much means that if your argument were true, it would have far reaching consequences that go well beyond the present discussion, many of which you'd doublty acept.

Such as...

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I know realize it is unusual, no offense taken, though there are presbyterian churches around in the major cities. I was a libertarian before I became a Calvinist, to answer your question.

... Which leads to the question whether your libertarianism influenced the way you read the bible? I know this is certainly be the case from experience; when I was more socialist leaning I would always focus my reading (not consciously) onto bits which seems to lean in a socialist direction.

8855  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Is the Christian Right comparable to Fundamentalist Islam? on: January 16, 2008, 05:31:57 pm
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Well, a) I don't justify my economic views using the Bible,

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and
b) your argument could be applied to any sort of conclusion about Biblical interpretation, or indeed, about any kind of text.

Well I think you would have an arguement here if it weren't for the long history of interpretation which supported the Divine of right kings - I know as you are a strict Calvinist this is unlikely to sway you but I can not claim to be a bible scholar as that is not my skill or area of expertise. Apart from a brief glance at the 'notable' books such as Genesis, Exodus, Levitcus, The Gospels, Revelation, etc I can not claim for myself any notion as a serious 'interpretation'.

The fact that biblical scholars in times previous claim to conclusions that modern society judges to illegimate as was among things a clear defense of status quo means that clearly anyone should be skeptical about any biblical intrepretation which gives credence to the status quo or to any political position for that matter.

 
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An argument that prove too much is useless, and indeed, your argument would prove too much. You have got to be brainwashed with postmodern nonsense to even make that sort of argument.

I don't understand your first bit ("Prove too much" = "too much proof"?) and as for the second bit I don't pretend to claim that one's reading of any text is of equal value to anothers; my position is simple: Anyone can intrepret the bible from their own POV, enforcing that POV onto society as a whole is dangerous and overly puritian. Actually in this day and age it sounds very much like Islamic Fundamentalism (which is hardly a united block).

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Of course, when I argue for Calvinism, I think my interpretation of the Bible is superior to Arminian interpretations, and I supply reasons for that. I don't see how it is any different for refuting the divine right of kings or what not.

I never said that your interpretation is either inferior or superior to any noted interpretation.

Btw, Bono which came first: Your Calvinism or your Economic views? I just find the idea of a Portuguese Calvinist Unusual (no offense!) and I do think this is relevant to the discussion.
8856  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Is the Christian Right comparable to Fundamentalist Islam? on: January 16, 2008, 05:05:34 pm
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Well, I could recommend you An Introduction To Christian Economics by Gary North, but I don't think you'd give them a "fair reading" either. You're just slandering the people you disagree with you through religious means. If you are so eager to put religion out of politics, why are you trying to preach your social gospelism as if it had any sort of biblical basis?

Bono, as an aside, do you believe that the Bible justifies the Divine right of Kings?

Not for today, but it did for a while in the specific case of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah. Unless, of course, you are talking about Christ's Kingship.

He's mainly talking about the European monarchies that arose after Rome collapsed I think.

For the most part "The Divine Right of Kings" was actually more prevalent in the stable monarchies which existed in Europe up to 1789 (with the exception of England as Oliver Cromwell had put an end to that belief.) as opposed to the much more unstable medevil kingdoms - who rarely bothered to give ideological justification.
8857  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Is the Christian Right comparable to Fundamentalist Islam? on: January 16, 2008, 05:03:43 pm
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Well, I could recommend you An Introduction To Christian Economics by Gary North, but I don't think you'd give them a "fair reading" either. You're just slandering the people you disagree with you through religious means. If you are so eager to put religion out of politics, why are you trying to preach your social gospelism as if it had any sort of biblical basis?

Bono, as an aside, do you believe that the Bible justifies the Divine right of Kings?

Not for today, but it did for a while in the specific case of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah. Unless, of course, you are talking about Christ's Kingship.

No I was talking in the very secular sense.

Of course you do realize the problem of justifying your economic views using the bible while claiming that a previous interpretation is inherently wrong (an interpretation which has o\c been nullified by sociopolitical events; unlike your own) - either you are a superior biblical scholar to those of 400ish years ago or you are just being selective with the text, no?
8858  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Is the Christian Right comparable to Fundamentalist Islam? on: January 16, 2008, 04:56:48 pm
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Well, I could recommend you An Introduction To Christian Economics by Gary North, but I don't think you'd give them a "fair reading" either. You're just slandering the people you disagree with you through religious means. If you are so eager to put religion out of politics, why are you trying to preach your social gospelism as if it had any sort of biblical basis?

Bono, as an aside, do you believe that the Bible justifies the Divine right of Kings?
8859  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Muslim Terrorists in action films on: January 16, 2008, 05:57:40 am
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Your rank and file Islamic militant is a brainwashed, poorly-educated religious fanatics without any real sophistication or complexity. You can do a lot more with an educated Soviet or Nazi character than you can with a simple-minded militant who grew up in a village and has only read one book in his whole life.

Not True.

But essentially correct but I can't people are missing the most important fact here: namely how damn cool a Russian Accent is.
8860  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Opinion of the preceding signuture part 2? on: January 16, 2008, 05:46:51 am
That's a mighty gay Irish guy

Who was born, lived nearly his entire life and never travelled outside of Auburn, California.

<Skip>
8861  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Opinion of the preceding signuture part 2? on: January 15, 2008, 03:53:56 pm
I like it alot - especially N. Thomas quote. For a politician he was a good man (even with dubious ideology).
8862  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you believe that 2007 will have the second coming of Jesus Christ? on: January 15, 2008, 03:47:00 pm
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Yes, it was. I didn't have any of that in mind; the same is true of plenty other antiquity figures. It's Jesus who is given a special status, but not a privileged one, on the contrary, because atheist writers will go to any lenghts to try to show He didn't exist.

Oooopsss... (actually my imagination here perhaps proves my later point.. interesting. Wink )

Anyway as I have already said I do believe that Jesus was a real person; even though as an agnostic I believe that most of his life stories as set in the gospels are fabricated (even ignoring the 'godly' stuff: How likely is it that Pilate would have met with Jesus before his execution? All that attention on a minor prophet - do you know how many of those there were in Judea at the time?)

Though I believe that the fabrication took place well before the gospels were written.

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And yet we have much more documents dealing with early Christianity...

Probably Culture. Though I'm just speculating here tbh. I admit when I say "I just don't know".

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That's not the kind of skepticism I was referring to. I was pointing out that if in your view you cannot know anything you don't experience directly, then you fall into a general septicism, not just a skepticism about religion--this is patently obvious if according to your view one cannot know Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo.

Perhaps 'know' is too clunky a word. I have received knowledge that Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo and that knowledge is known to reliable and true as written in both primary and secondary sources. But I don't 'know' that in the same way, I know what I ate this morning. Damn English language.
8863  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: The Soviet Chamber of Horrors on: January 15, 2008, 03:41:00 pm
Blaming Karl Marx for the horrors of Mao and Stalin is like blaming Jesus or St Paul for the Crusades.

And yes we don't need to told that the Soviet Union was not a very nice place.
8864  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Should military service be a pre-requisite for the Secretary of Defense? on: January 15, 2008, 03:38:46 pm
No. Tempted to argue for the reverse; no-one with military service can have the position.
8865  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you believe that 2007 will have the second coming of Jesus Christ? on: January 15, 2008, 03:25:52 pm
True; but the expansion of Christanity was not a military event unlike Islam. Europe did not turn Christian under a force of arms; unlike say, Iran.
Most of Europe did, actually.

Yeah, 300+ years after Christ's death. Not quite the same thing. Though I admit I probably should shut up now - my late-Roman Empire knowledge isn't great.
8866  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you believe that 2007 will have the second coming of Jesus Christ? on: January 15, 2008, 03:19:41 pm
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We have is not just "western" biographies, is any kind of biography.

I know; what I got across from your post is that you believe Mohammed is given some reputation as 'untouchable' by western writers due to a supposed Islamic Sympathy? Or perhaps that was my imagination.

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Just as difficult as trying to explain the expansion of  Christianity without reference to Jesus.

True; but the expansion of Christanity was not a military event unlike Islam. Europe did not turn Christian under a force of arms; unlike say, Iran. In the Koran Mohammed leads conquests which almost certainly did occur; plotting the historical movements of troops on the globe is much easier to decipher than the early history of what was, an underground and much persecuted sect.

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Yes, so your worldview collapses into skepticism. I don't see how this especially commends it.

I don't think my worldview is particularly commendable. All I report is how I perceive it (or at least I try to), bring other factors into it without skepticism just leads to worst kinds of absolutism. How can we judge one person's opinion on a nebelous human concept - 'religion', 'ethics', 'morality', etc - over another if both people are use external and unprovable forces such as god as justification.
8867  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you believe that 2007 will have the second coming of Jesus Christ? on: January 15, 2008, 10:50:24 am
Also note unlike Jesus actual known political history has been attributed to Mohammed;

Though on the other hand (no... probably just a different finger) expecting to find known political history that was the direct result of the activities of the preacher son of a carpenter living in a largely illiterate society two thousand years ago is a little silly.


Err Yes, that is my point.

Bono compared the evidence for Jesus to the evidence to Mohammed, implying that the story of Mohammed is believed by Westerners (Whoever they are) not due to evidence but because of OMG POLITICAL CORRECTNESS OMG!!1111. I was merely refuting that. Anyway I tend to strongly believe that Jesus actually existed - even if the events of his life as told in the gospels are probably fabricated - since the alternative is to imply that someone made him up.
8868  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you believe that 2007 will have the second coming of Jesus Christ? on: January 15, 2008, 10:38:48 am
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Did you know that we only have one biography of Mohammed, written 212 years after his death, which used a source from about 100 years after his death, and yet "the historical scepticism of critical European scholarship is substantially less" where Muhammed is concerned! Are you going to put into doubt the records of the activities of Mohammed too?

Perhaps because, until recently, the western interest in the Islamic world was an esoteric intellectual taste?

Also note unlike Jesus actual known political history has been attributed to Mohammed; the rise of Islamic imperalism in the 100 years after his supposed death. Trying to explain that without reference to 'Mohammed' is rather difficult, no?

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Perhaps in a while, you'll be arguing that we cannot know anything about what happened before we were born.

Well, not in the same way I 'know' I am typing on the computer right now.
8869  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Nevada court declares Kucinich to be included in Democratic debate on: January 15, 2008, 10:26:27 am
What's with all the people who want to stop debate?

There is no measurable difference between the (spoken) policies of Obama, Edwards, and Clinton.  You might as well just present a two-hour orgy where everyone agrees to repeal NAFTA, bring back the troops, and then wink at each other and burst out laughing.
8870  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: How do you pronounce the name of the previous poster... on: January 15, 2008, 06:45:08 am
Gahb - ew.
8871  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: What do you think of this? on: January 14, 2008, 04:24:36 pm
Never has more truth been drawn... (with Quotation marks, o\c)
8872  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: What do/did your family work as? on: January 14, 2008, 04:17:15 pm
Great Great Great Great Great Grandfather? (dad’s dad’s dad’s dad’s  dad’s  dad’s dad) – Indian chief, Co-leader at the Battle of the Monongahela; killed in a raid by Anglo-Colonial forces about a year later; skull brought to Philadelphia.

You win Tongue

Not so, it is believed (though never conclusively proven) by alot of the members of my family that we are descended from a British soldier who decided to settle here during the Cromwellian invasion.

8873  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Muslim Terrorists in action films on: January 14, 2008, 04:15:53 pm
Perhaps because the current War on Terrah is so absurd it really needs a satirist, not a Schwarzeneggar?

And why do you act as if you Jingoism is a good thing? Not entirely unpredictable from you Mike, but still.

Why is loving your country a bad thing?

Because the way 'your country' was chosen was little more than a lucky shot in the great mankind sperm race. (or Unlucky, if you live in the Third world.)

Loving 'your' country; the concept amuses me as I don't love mine. Not that Joe Republic isn't correct when he says there is a difference between Jingoism (OMG LETS GO KILL THOSE SANDNIGGAHS!11111) to patriotism.
8874  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Who is the next President of the United States? on: January 14, 2008, 12:25:58 pm
McCain.
8875  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Muslim Terrorists in action films on: January 14, 2008, 11:56:04 am
Perhaps because the current War on Terrah is so absurd it really needs a satirist, not a Schwarzeneggar?

And why do you act as if you Jingoism is a good thing? Not entirely unpredictable from you Mike, but still.
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