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8926  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: OK, now no question, I'd vote for Hillary in the general, no reservations on: January 21, 2008, 07:53:47 pm
For a start at present the Trend is towards increasing turnout. I suspect alot of this has to do with emotions towards Bush rather than anything really substantial. When turnout fell below 50% for the first time ever in a Presidential race in 1996 there was alot of typical meaningless soul-searching about "American Democracy" Whatever that is - The simple fact that both candidates in a way benefited from the low turnout (Clinton got re-elected while with high turnouts that would be more dubious as you get alot of independents while Dole didn't get destroyed as some predicted which might have happened if it weren't for the perception of it being a pointless and finished race.) was ignored.

Also between 2000 and 2004 there was a clear attempt by some Democrats to court Nader voters (many of whom are quite worth hating..) which clearly would not have happened if 3% of voters in 2000 didn't go for Nader (and o\c exaggerated by the whole "close Election" thing.)

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I don't doubt that 50% VAP turnout is no reason for them to worry, but perhaps 15% or 10% or 5% would be.  either the trend will accelerate, and we'll see, or it won't and we won't.

For it to reach that levels you would have make voting an elitist exercise away from the notion of "Civil duty" in the first place - and for that to happen within the present course of events (which is unthinkable..) would probably mean your revolution has already started.

But whither Revolution?

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What you don't appear to understand, I don't understand why you don't understand, is that there is no reason for the political establishment to worry about low turnouts. Turnout in mid-term elections, which unlike most other countries matter a hell of a lot in the U.S, is comical (or tragic; depends on your perspective) and has been for years.

Less true (not but entirely untrue) btw in countries which have a more proportional electoral system.

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Apathy is not a Revolutionary stance.

Essentially true - and Apathy is the reason most people don't vote. I think there is a sense even among non-voters that 'the system' works, but they don't quite the people running it. Which is different from you want Tweed.

Btw BRTD from what I know Nader ain't going to run. I *think* Camejo or possibly Medea Benjamin might (as the Greens nominee.. unless they choose McKinney. Which I really hope they don't.)
8927  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Election Night 2008 on: January 21, 2008, 07:34:52 pm
Clinton/Richardson vs. McCain/Sanford

Clinton 319, McCain 219

Clinton would not win Missouri, Arkansas, New Mexico, or West Virginia against McCain. Period. It would also take a small miracle for her to best McCain in Virginia.

Every single poll since forever has shown Clinton crushing every single opponent in Arkansas. And the only WV poll realesed so far showed the Ds well ahead and it was a partizan Republican poll.

Things change with different candidates - Bill Clinton did better in Louisana than in Vermont in 1996 for instance.
8928  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Question for you Hillary hating Democrats on: January 21, 2008, 07:27:48 pm
Absolutely not. I would probably just stay home.

Don't - vote Green or Libertarian or Peace & Freedom or whatever... Staying at home gives even more reason for the political establishment to ignore people like you.

Someone gets it! Smiley

I'm not sure whether that is a good thing or not.

The Thing I've probably learnt the most from this forum is despite two monolithic parties US politics is probably more fractured than anywhere else in the western world outside of France. Not that that's bad either.
8929  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: President Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton on: January 21, 2008, 02:56:01 pm
JSM = ehh.. John Sidney McCain.

Why I am comparing Mill to McCain? Mill may have been a snob but compared to McCain.. he's Jesus.

8930  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Who would you rather have as President? on: January 21, 2008, 02:54:47 pm
I'll take HIV over the Bubonic Plague, thank you very much. ie McCain.

Pretty Much.

Also I can't help when I look at Romney to want to punch him in the face. Repeatedly. If he wins, the idea that the US is a meritocracy (which it clearly isn't but anyway..) is dead.
8931  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: President Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton on: January 21, 2008, 02:40:20 pm
I'm quite surprised by AoD's sig. In saying that it is not surprising given that choosing between Clinton and McCain is like choosing which one of your arms you would least like to have cut off.

At least JSM does not have that the whole "House of Clinton" thing.

Anyone who supports McCain should never criticize the Democrats and call them no different from the Republicans...ever.

I don't support McCain. Merely pointing out one reason why someone would.

Btw, I agree with you.
8932  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: President Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton on: January 21, 2008, 02:37:07 pm
I'm quite surprised by AoD's sig. In saying that it is not surprising given that choosing between Clinton and McCain is like choosing which one of your arms you would least like to have cut off.

At least JSM does not have that the whole "House of Clinton" thing.
8933  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: What's the last movie you've seen? on: January 21, 2008, 02:19:53 pm
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Raging Bull at #4 is f**king ridiculous, no question.

Also ridiculous: Doctor Zhivago is off.

The Original AFI List was such a joke I can't imagine people care that much. The real purpose in this exercise is imo to expunge the memory of that awful list (Forrest Gump but no Blade Runner... lol)

EDIT: Having looked at it via wikipedia I claim that the new list is an even bigger joke. Getting rid of The Manchurian Candidate and The Third Man (even if I do think it's a little overrated) for the likes of Spartacus, The Sixth Sense, A Night at the Opera, All The President's Men, Lord of the Rings and most unbelievably of all Titanic!!!. (And still keep Forrest Gump

Okay they added in Blade Runner, but where's Paths of Glory, Kiss Me Deadly, Rebecca, Days of Heaven At least one Movie by Lynch and Cronenberg, Once Upon a time in the West or Once Upon a time in America - if either of the latter two count, to give more deserving examples.

In short, AFI list = Pseudo-Populist humbug for the Pseudo-sophiscated crowd.
8934  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: whatever happened to the gene mccarthy/rfk voters? on: January 21, 2008, 02:08:03 pm
This is... such... a strange thread for many reasons. The main one being that most of the hippies\yippies\SDSers were voters in the first place. Perhaps alot people influenced by them were - especially for McCarthy, but they never made up even a huge proportion of the population.

Though as Tom Wolfe pointed out the whole 60s counter culture was partially driven by money in the first place. Which is why the Oil Crisis killed it, not Altamont.
8935  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Question for you Hillary hating Democrats on: January 21, 2008, 01:59:41 pm
Absolutely not. I would probably just stay home.

Don't - vote Green or Libertarian or Peace & Freedom or whatever... Staying at home gives even more reason for the political establishment to ignore people like you.
8936  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Israel on: January 20, 2008, 09:34:23 pm
To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.
And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

As Tory said that could mean anything. The original Zionists actually wanted a state which would iirc stretch as far as the Euphrates - In modern day Iraq.

Why? Jews are no longer persecuted anywhere in the West.

In fact, that brings up an interesting question: why would anyone want to move to Israel?

We are talking about the Early Zionists here. And the area stretching from the Euphrates is the historic "Abrahamic" Israel or Canaan iirc. Abraham coming from Ur in Mesopotamia itself iirc.
8937  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: why bother caring? on: January 20, 2008, 09:32:31 pm
No; he's targetting you because your original statement defied reality.

Really?  No, not at all.  He does this all the time.  And by the way, low-income Americans are more likely to stay home from the polls so rich does not equal apathetic.  Reality says rich people care more and vote more while poor people care less and vote less.  Obviously those who care less don't feel as affected or else they would care more.

All that shows is that the poorer feel more disconnected by the political system. Which should be a shock to... absolutely no-one.

And of course levels of voting how nothing to do with 'apathy'. I'd say the Anarchistic inclined community activist is much less apathetic than silly rich people with trivial lives who live in places like Putnam County, NY and always vote Republican to a tee. As that is what you do in Putnam.
8938  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Israel on: January 20, 2008, 09:19:15 pm
To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.
And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

As Tory said that could mean anything. The original Zionists actually wanted a state which would iirc stretch as far as the Euphrates - In modern day Iraq.
8939  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: why bother caring? on: January 20, 2008, 09:17:34 pm
Very funny, kid. This is satire, right? Right?

And you continue to ignore my basic point. Why?

If only this type of disagreement was satirical...

Actually, your "basic point" didn't exist until you decided to change your post from another sad attack to a legitimate point.  My point was quite clear however: Your accusations are all the same and not based on any facts, just animosity towards those more fortunate than you and are thus moot.  Your "arguements" really mean nothing to me because I can see right through all your posts and know you are only targetting me for my social status.

No; he's targetting you because your original statement defied reality.
8940  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Gully Foyle's Ireland Place on: January 20, 2008, 08:03:04 pm
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It's interesting just to how big a degree the south east of Dublin stands out from everywhere else.

The Funny thing is that is just Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and not the D4\D6 area which is officially part of the city but also on the South East 'side' - if you included that then the difference would be even greater..

So in other words, proving how much better we are than the rest of the country. Grin

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I must say I was also a little surprised Cork County has so many more in Classes 1&2 than most. It's interesting in comparison with Cork city and Limerick and Galway.

Also Waterford... which I foolishly drew too small.

As for Cork, Galway and Limerick most of their suburbs are technically outside their city limits - as from experience these include some very well off areas (Like Castelconell in Limerick or Salthill in Galway..) and that would explain those numbers.

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I knew Monaghan was likely to be above average on the skilled manual scale but wouldn't have figured it at what seems to be the top of the scale.

Yep. Along with Wexford on that scale but highest over all..

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I think the farmer numbers are interesting as well. Carlow; Westmeath; Longford ;and Donegal stand out.

Given that I had work with numerical data at first the thing that really stood out were the 345 farmers registered in Dublin City...
8941  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: why bother caring? on: January 20, 2008, 07:50:24 pm
Seriously.  Not a big deal.  Looking at things objectively, politics really don't matter that much.  George Bush does not affect your life that much.  We like to look at the headlines and think that our government is doing all this and that or whatever.  If you think about it, they don't do much at all.  You can live your whole life not knowing we even have a politically active government.  The changes, or lack there of, are not that drastic and will rarely affect our lives to the point where we really should be concerned.  We are all just obsessed with politics, leading to a reality in which the President and Congress actually matter for some reason.
As someone who most definetly lives inside a "Bourgeois Ghetto" all I can say is "What an apathetic life you lead".

I never said I don't care, I said it's easy not to.

Perhaps that wasn't something I was really addressing to you - just the people in the post you refer to. Coming from a similiar background I actually *agree* with you on one level (the perceptive one) and disagree with you on the other (the 'reality' - though the differences between the favoured Candidates on actual policy is fairly minimal; but since when policy matter in US elections?) but all it does is fill me with a greater desire to rebel against my social background more.
8942  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: is the preceding member of the forum a "troll" on: January 20, 2008, 07:44:43 pm
Certainly not.
8943  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: What Weimar Republic party would the preceding poster best fit in? on: January 20, 2008, 07:41:35 pm
Bourgeois milieu for sure, and at a guess usually DVP.

---

Btw, if stereotypes are anything to go by, quite a few people (those who are young, not working class and not catholic) who've posted in this thread would probably have voted Nazi at least twice.

That means me.

But you have little conservative sympathies.

Actually Al is right, The German Situation in the 1920s is so different to the modern American situation that most people here would hardly share the views they do now if they grew up there.

Anyway Xahar would vote for... Ehmm, DPP (Maybe). But would depend on quite alot of things, probably a Nazi ahead of Zentrum or the Neo-Monarchists.
8944  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: why bother caring? on: January 20, 2008, 06:01:25 pm
Seriously.  Not a big deal.  Looking at things objectively, politics really don't matter that much.  George Bush does not affect your life that much.  We like to look at the headlines and think that our government is doing all this and that or whatever.  If you think about it, they don't do much at all.  You can live your whole life not knowing we even have a politically active government.  The changes, or lack there of, are not that drastic and will rarely affect our lives to the point where we really should be concerned.  We are all just obsessed with politics, leading to a reality in which the President and Congress actually matter for some reason.

As someone who most definetly lives inside a "Bourgeois Ghetto" all I can say is "What an apathetic life you lead".
8945  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: What state is the previous post best suited to live in. on: January 20, 2008, 05:59:56 pm
District of Colombia
8946  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: What Wemar Republic party would the preceding poster best fit in? on: January 20, 2008, 05:44:46 pm
Don't know what Wemar Republic party Lewis would be in, mainly because I don't know what the "wemar Republic" is. But looking at the title made me go off an tangent and I was beginning to think "I wonder what Weimar Republic party Lewis would be in" and So I thought about it and so I realized....

USPD then DDP then SAP with occasional SDP voting.

EDIT: For the Mikado, DDP.
8947  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Which politcal party is the previous poster best suited for? on: January 20, 2008, 05:40:43 pm
Clearly the Republicans...
8948  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: How many countries have you visited? on: January 20, 2008, 06:45:50 am
Ireland, UK, US, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and the Vatican City. Not an interesting list I know..

When I was little (12/13), I could have given up eating for a month to see Vienna. I stared at pictures for hours and read encyclopedia articles about the city just dreaming that I could stroll down the Ringstrasse to the Hofburg. No other city compared: not London, not Paris, and least of all New York.

Now, I have ZERO intention of going abroad. I'm an American; what we have here the rest of the world can only envy.

How disturbingly insular of you..

EDIT: Added Vatican.
8949  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: why bother caring? on: January 20, 2008, 06:32:44 am
Am I the only one who actually understands what Tweed is talking about, even if I don't agree with him?

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people will be happy so long as their cable tv pumps through and gas is in their car, and the McDonalds drive-thru is open... but hopefully, one day in my lifetime, more Nixon and more Humphrey and more Clinton and more Bush and More McCain will land people with no gasoline and no television and no police and no telephone and chaos...  and then they can do some real thinking...

What do you mean by "Real Thinking"? Is that this kind of post-Adolscent introspection (and in a modern society you have to be at least comfortably off to do that; no time if you work for Walmart.) or something else?

As for Politicians, a Politician can only get elected if he represents the vast swath of public sympathy and viewpoint. This is why to people who look outside "the system" think "they are all the same" - They are the same because the window of public opinion is very narrow and is based on a bunch of cultural niches which are often put into people at a very young age, via parenting and the Education system. Most people accept these views, some - for no apparent reason - don't. You are the latter.

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originally there was Claire, and that has faded out...  now there's Mari..  last night I "poked" her on Facebook...  and she has poked back... and now we're in a poke war...  I don't even know if she knows who I am...  but it satiates me, as crazy as it is...  the only things that exist, are the things I can FEEL...  and I can feel that poke war

But what People FEEL is different from person to person; perhaps some people's feeling is limited to McDonald's Drive Thrus, as a limited a life as that is.

I do agree though that there is a strange level of politician worshipping going on here, but perhaps that is to be expected. But you are looking at it wrong, Clinton and McCain are more representative of the Average American than you or Ron Paul (who shows unlike some claims that Money isn't that important in American Politics.) and if they are problems then it just shows a deeper malaise in American society as a whole which produces its senators, representatives and Presidents. Looking at it a Marxist viewpoint where the rulers hoodwink the Masses is totally inadequent. Would Joe Sixpack rule any differently? any better? (And anti-immigration does not show apathy. It shows a strong sense of Reactionarism. Which is something totally different. But would require a totally different post.)
8950  Election Archive / 2008 Elections / Re: Official SC Republican Primary Results Thread on: January 19, 2008, 08:15:22 pm
Having had a brief look (very brief mind) it looks like the earliest counties to declare at the one's McCain won in 2000.

In saying that he should win this now.
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