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49801  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Election What-ifs? / Re: What would have happened if the south had gotten its independence from the u on: December 13, 2004, 09:35:38 am
The question is: How did the South get its independence from the union?
I'm going to disregard the "military victory" option since that's obviously baloney.

Wrong. Their were several occassions in which the south could have won the war militarily. Yes, even past Gettysburg and up into 1864. Washington, DC was being attacked by Confederate forces under Jubal Early in October of 1864 and he came very close to capturing Washington.
A military victory would mean that the North would lose the ability to fight on.
Now don't tell me you think there is any chance of that.
49802  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: New Constitutional Convention Discussion on: December 13, 2004, 07:23:23 am
Pete said it would take something like ten amendments to fix it. Why don't we redraft it, keep what is alright and finish it with one thing instead of ten. Either way, the way we conduct Constitutional Amendment votes needs to change. Post the vote in the thread like you would for an election.
Now this is a change that I'd support enthusiastically.
Given that current praxis is based on precedent and an unclearly worded constitutional provision, it could probably be done by a simple law.
49803  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Forum Political Compass on: December 13, 2004, 07:17:30 am
Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.08
Why the blue avatar, Alcon? You got the blues or something?
49804  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Who will be the next President to die? on: December 13, 2004, 07:16:10 am
Where is the NOTA option? The next president to die will be Dick Cheney, in office, of a major coronary, just a couple of days after Bush is forced to resign after it is found out that he is not the twins' biological father.
Smiley

49805  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: Was 1964 a landslide? on: December 13, 2004, 07:13:12 am
He didn't get 500 EVs.
Neither did George Washington.
49806  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Moderate Alliance for a Modern Atlasia on: December 13, 2004, 06:55:28 am
witness the D4 race, for example, where two moderates were technically on the ballot (myself and Hermit)
two moderates were technically on the ballot, but you weren't. Two moderates were also running for practical purposes, but those don't include Hermit.
49807  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Election What-ifs? / Re: What would have happened if the south had gotten its independence from the union on: December 13, 2004, 06:52:09 am
The question is: How did the South get its independence from the union?
I'm going to disregard the "military victory" option since that's obviously baloney.
Hmmm...France and/or Britain joining the war on the South's behalf? Leads to a downfall of the French and/or British government, and quite possibly violent revolution, within a couple of months, which the governments in question knew very well, which is why it didn't happen.
That leaves two options:
a) The North just gives up after Bull Run.
Highly unlikely, but might lead to the sort of consequences most of you appear to envisage. (ie, abolution of slavery in the South in the 1890s, close alliance between the two countries, possible reunification)
b) The South does not attack Fort Sumter. The North does not attack the South, but rather tolerates a de-facto-independent Deep Southern Confederacy. The Upper South does not leave the Union.
The Mormons do, though, and straight away.
The CSA would not have been very viable, and radical Northerners would have done everything to create a Slave Revolution. Once Slavery was abolished in the North (this is bound to happen by the late-1870s, might lead to further secessions however), such a Slave Revolution would break out.
Either the South asks for Northern military help in this situation, with the result being reunification, abolution of slavery, and possibly some pretty largescale deportation of Blacks to Liberia, or it doesn't (or help is not granted), in which case the South's further history closely resembles that of Haiti. Though the US wields a lot of defacto power over the South, it is no doubt much weaker politically and economically than in reality.
This means that all the events in the world leading up to WW I and II will have to be modified.
49808  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Drug Testing In Schools on: December 13, 2004, 06:38:35 am
I read somewhere there's stuff you can legally buy and consume that'll ensure you'll produce a false positive - and it's bad on your health in the long run.

Drug Testing no matter where (well, maybe exempting champion athletes and drunk drivers) = Class War on the Poor.
Thank God that's illegal here.
49809  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: The Political Compass: page 2 on: December 13, 2004, 06:33:35 am
People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality.
Tough one...if "nationality" were to cover all regional cultural differences, I'd probably have to say disagree. As it is, I say agree.

Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment.
Strongly disagree. Nobody dies on account of inflation.

Because corporations cannot be trusted to voluntarily protect the environment, they require regulation.
Strongly agree. Although that's not the only reason.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is a fundamentally good idea.
Strongly agree. That's the basis of civilizised society. Now on to the important questions:What's need? And what's just wishes?

It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product.
Strongly agree. Which is why I avoid drinking bottled water.

Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold.
Strongly Disagree. That'd basically throw us back into the Dark Ages. The Soviets never went this far.

It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society.
Strongly Agree. In fact they may well up destroying lots of people's livelihoods. Need I say Asia Crisis?

Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade.
Agree. Not here in the North though.

The only social responsibility of a company should be to deliver a profit to its shareholders.
Strongly Disagree. A company's goal is to deliver a profit to itself. What it then does with that profit is its own choice, to be made by the shareholders.
A company's responsibility is to do so without destroying the environment, cheating its trading partners, exploiting its workers, destroying communities etc, in as far as this is possible. Obviously, as you would know if you'd knew the bases of your economic theories, the profit delivered can therefore not be very large, nor indeed should it be.

The rich are too highly taxed.
Disagree. Nominal tax rates are too high. Payment morale is too low.

Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care .
Agree. The standards of medical care available in large parts of the world, say China or Latin America, are totally sufficient, as can be seen from the fact that life expectancy there isn't lagging far behind the West on much smaller budgets. If some people want more than that, they should pay the bill themselves. And yes, that includes no tax deductions to medical research etc.

Governments should penalise businesses that mislead the public.
Strongly Agree. In a Market Economy, that's one of government's prime functions.

A genuine free market requires restrictions on the ability of predator multinationals to create monopolies.
Strongly Agree. Duh. Not that the "multinational" bit is important. Such restrictions, btw, should be mostly about setting the right market conditions, not simply about banning stuff or creating lots of red tape.

The freer the market, the freer the people.
Strongly Disagree. As long as there is a soul in prison I am not free.
49810  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: The Political Compass: page 2 on: December 13, 2004, 06:15:24 am
No enterprise can oppress anyone. Any exchange in the free market is optional.
Free markets require full information.
No company is interested in providing full information.

Any exchange in the free market is optional? Right. The rich and the poor are equally free to sleep under the bridge.
49811  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: Was 1964 a landslide? on: December 13, 2004, 06:09:52 am
Two ways to answer the question:
a) Yes, it was.
b) No, landslides do not exist.
49812  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: VOTING BOOTH OF THE PACIFIC on: December 13, 2004, 05:39:45 am
Remarkable Stability of Pacific Electorate
56% of votes this election cycle were cast by signatories of the Pacific Constitution.

49813  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Predictions for the Midterms on: December 13, 2004, 05:32:49 am
Only read this thread just right now...wonder what got into your head about TexasGurl. I would have been very much surprised if this race had turned out any different.
Of course it's easy to speak with hindsight, but:
D1 is about what I expected, although I wouldn't have wanted to rule out a higher Soulty win.
The Special...I totally forgot that the old district is more Democratic. I probably would have guessed Andrew to win by slightly more than Soult, being slightly more moderate in my book and having the weaker opponent.
D2: I never thought Siege might lose.
D3: Yeah, well, as I said.
D4: I would have guessed on a narrow win by Harry.
D5: If forced to bet I'd have probably gone for a narrow StevenNick win, but I knew this would come down to the wire.
49814  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Victory Speech on: December 13, 2004, 05:22:13 am
Ah, yes, Senator Snarlin' Chris Supersoult. Congrats (grumble). Smiley
49815  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2000 U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: 2000 Free-for-all! on: December 13, 2004, 04:26:29 am
Of those, Gore.
If all presidential contenders of all parties are included in a Louisiana-style open primary, Nader in the first round, Gore in the second.
49816  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: Voting Requirements Amendment on: December 13, 2004, 04:03:58 am
I can NOT agree with a standard REQUIRING someone to post a certain amount of times between elections. Many times we have lurkers who merely read what we write and choose not to participate on that level. I can understand that and I definately respect that. My example for this is NCLib. Although he DOES post in the regular forum I have never seen him post in the fantasy section. Voting should be free for all who meet the fairly easy requirements. We should not start "posting requirements" or "activity requirements" in order to vote. In my opinion this is voter suppression and does not help Atlasia whatsoever.  I am strongly against that section of this amendment.
Enthusiastic applause from a longhaired bespectacled spectator interrupts Senate proceedings.
49817  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Election What-ifs? / Re: What do forum Democrats think of Hillary? on: December 13, 2004, 03:54:34 am
I like her, but I don't want her to get the nomination, as I don't think she can win. She's not my first choice for the nomination, anyway. Overall, however, I think she'd be a good President.
Same here, except I'm not so sure on the last sentence.
Oh, and I prefer Hilary ca.92-94 to all later Hilarys.
49818  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Gubernatorial/Statewide Elections / Re: Spitzer lead Pataki by 12, Clinton leads Pataki by 22 and Powell by 5 in NY on: December 13, 2004, 03:52:58 am
He should quit while he's ahead. 
"I'd be ahead if I could quit while I'm behind."
49819  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Presidential Election Trends / Re: Which of these border states do you consider part of the south? on: December 13, 2004, 03:38:09 am
Believe me...rural MD is just as much the "South" as Alabama. Same with rural parts of South Central Pennsylvania.
South Central Pennsylvania was never much influenced by the South. It's just that Appalachia was at one point strongly influenced by Pennsylvania, and other parts of Pennsylvania have changed a lot since.
Option 1. MD and DE are former slave states with sizable rural Black populations. There couldn't be a better definition of what a Southern state is, if rural KY, WV and MO hadn't been abandoned by Blacks well-nigh entirely in the mid-20th century.

You'd be surprised how many confederate flags I see in some of the rural areas around here. I heard someone say that they saw more confederate flags in Perry county (a few miles north of here) then they ever saw in the South. Also remember, many of the towns (even Gettysburg) had a lot of Southern sympathizers during the Civil War.
Not a contradiction. These 1860s people probably had lots of relatives down south. But it's those Southern relatives who had moved recently, not the Pennsylvanians.
Nowadays, people over there probably get told often enough that they are Alabamans that they've started believing it themselves.
49820  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Signing of The Pacific Region's Regional Constitution(westerners only please) on: December 13, 2004, 03:30:09 am
Propositions that have passed and have now been enacted.

The Medical Marijuana Legalization Act
This Act if passed will legalize Medical Marijuana within the Pacific Region.

The Children's Hospital Act
Authorizes $1 billion over 15 years for grants to eligible children's hospitials [sic] to construction, expansion, renovation and equipment.

Family Day
Every first Monday in each atlas fiscal year will be Family Day. Where workers get to come home in and spend some time with the family.

The Pacific National Guard Expansion Act
This bill establishes a fund that will supply our troops with adequate training, body armor, and top of the line equipment. Total cost will be $2.5 billion dollars over 10 years and will be mostly funded through bonds and grants from the Department of Defense.

Candidate and Proposition Deadline Act
If passed this proposition will make it so all candidates must announce their candidacy at least 3 days before the first election day and all propositions must be on the ballot by that same time.

Science Tax Cut Act
If passed for each $100,000 a company spends purely on research projects focused on space exploration research, stem cell research, finding newer and more efficient fuels etc. the company will receive $5,000 tax rebate.

The Pacific University Initiative
This proposition hereby allocates $2.1 billion over 25 years to establish the first public universities for Atlasian regions. The main campus shall be located in teh alrgest state, California, and will be known as UPCalifornia, the first branch will be located in the second largest state, Washington, and will be know [sic] as UPWashington, the second and final branch's location  will be decided by the Governor of the Pacific based on bids by citizens of each state.

Term Limits Act
No Governor or Lt. Governor may serve more than 4 consecutive terms in one office.

All of these propositions passed, 10th-12th December, by veto-proof majorities of over 60%.
If the clause "60% of the vote from the people of the Pacific Region" is to be interpreted as 60% of valid votes cast on that proposition, that is. We have received word from the Governor's office that this is the correct interpretation of the law.
49821  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: VOTING BOOTH OF THE PACIFIC on: December 13, 2004, 03:15:13 am
With 100% of the votes for their respective positions Governor Wildcard is re-elected and Lewis Trondheim is is elected to the office of Lt. Governor

Prop. 1 passes 5 votes to 3
Prop. 2 passes 7 votes to 1
Prop. 3 passes 7 votes to 2
Prop. 4 is defeated 8 votes to 1
Prop. 5 passes 7 votes to 2
Prop. 6 passes 7 votes to 2
Prop. 7 passes 6 votes to 2
Prop. 8 passes 8 votes to 1
Prop. 9 passes 6 votes to 3

Thank you to all of those who took the time to show up and vote
Prop. 8 passes 9 votes to 0.

Fixed... Hey wait a minute Lewis this is your job now. Cheesy
That's why I checked - although I'm not sure when my term begins. I'll have to check the constitution on that...Cheesy
It doesn't say. I guess my term starts now.
49822  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: District 4- questionable result on: December 13, 2004, 03:06:31 am
Anyway, you guys wonder why everyone is so damn confussed all the time, it is because you guys change the law with every single tiny irregularity that comes up.

I don't recall the law regarding how to handle these types of votes having ever been changed. I agree that it needs to be clearer, however. The requirement to have an avatar or a statement in the profile signature should be in the voting booth thread. I'm just offering that as a suggestion for next time.
Good idea. An even better idea might be to remove the requirement entirely, as it doesn't really serve any purpose.

It was made law as to cut back on confusion.  It appears that the "Iron Rule of Unanticipated Consequences" has struck again.  It appreas that we have made a bigger mess for ourselves.  That does not, howver, change the current status of the law.
I was talking about for the next election.
I don't care who wins this really. Harry and WMS will both make fine Senators.
49823  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: Official Midterm Senate Elections Voting Booth on: December 13, 2004, 02:59:48 am
If a vote can't be altered, shouldn't this mean that the vote from the original post has to stay? IIRC that was the framers' original intent. After all you can't go back to the polling station and change your vote either.
If that were the case Defarge couldn't devalidate his vote.
Re:NixonNow.
He was also, for a while, fantasy registered twice, just like IrishDem/GirlGoneWild.
So was (is?) RReagan4Ever/Eversole_Adam (neither of them ever tried to vote twice in the same election, however.)
Basically, if we allow this practice of deleting yourself and reregistering to stand, we'd better scrap the "no moves in four months" requirement as the loophole is going to be larger than the law itself.
49824  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: VOTING BOOTH OF THE PACIFIC on: December 13, 2004, 02:48:32 am
With 100% of the votes for their respective positions Governor Wildcard is re-elected and Lewis Trondheim is is elected to the office of Lt. Governor

Prop. 1 passes 5 votes to 3
Prop. 2 passes 7 votes to 1
Prop. 3 passes 7 votes to 2
Prop. 4 is defeated 8 votes to 1
Prop. 5 passes 7 votes to 2
Prop. 6 passes 7 votes to 2
Prop. 7 passes 6 votes to 2
Prop. 8 passes 8 votes to 1
Prop. 9 passes 6 votes to 3

Thank you to all of those who took the time to show up and vote
Prop. 8 passes 9 votes to 0.

Fixed... Hey wait a minute Lewis this is your job now. Cheesy
That's why I checked - although I'm not sure when my term begins. I'll have to check the constitution on that...Cheesy
49825  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: District 4- questionable result on: December 13, 2004, 02:47:11 am
Anyway, you guys wonder why everyone is so damn confussed all the time, it is because you guys change the law with every single tiny irregularity that comes up.

I don't recall the law regarding how to handle these types of votes having ever been changed. I agree that it needs to be clearer, however. The requirement to have an avatar or a statement in the profile signature should be in the voting booth thread. I'm just offering that as a suggestion for next time.
Good idea. An even better idea might be to remove the requirement entirely, as it doesn't really serve any purpose.
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