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1  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Sanders v. Fiorina - who wins? on: September 17, 2015, 06:28:37 am
2  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Why was Sawx banned? on: August 08, 2015, 12:15:57 pm
He seemed so mature for his age. I couldn't have imagined him threatening another poster before. I guess people are not so different underneath.
3  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Frau Merkel makes a Palestinian kid cry on national TV on: July 18, 2015, 09:29:06 pm
But why? (Antonio)

Even if it was going to be better, people didn't "prepare" for industrial capitalism in advance. Nor did people try to persuade them. It just came, and they adjusted accordingly. But you haven't explained why  the "single world-nation" is desirable in the first place.

Because I am convinced that it will reduce social ills and improve people's well-being to an extent that is outright unimaginable to this point.

Speaking as a citizen of a small Northern European country, Finland, I would say that the whole concept of a welfare state here is, in fact, to a large degree tied into the concept of nation: people are willing to accept high taxes to support public services because they view that as taking care of their own, seeing the society as an extended family. That is why even the Finnish right-wing populists are supporters of the welfare state.

That all changes, however, if the state becomes a truly multicultural society. People will cease to view the society as an extended family, as the society is no longer united by the same culture. As a result, people's willingness to accept high taxation will fall, as they will begin to ask why they have to pay into the services of persons with whom they have nothing in common. The welfare state will eventually cease to exist, as it loses its justification in a splintered society.

If the Left wants to transform the nation state into a multicultural society, they have to accept that that will, in the long term, also lead to the transformation of that state into a neoliberal society.
I never thought about it that way.  That's a very interesting insight into the difference between American and European politics.

lol not really
4  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Hillary Clinton to put forth economic vision on: July 13, 2015, 06:36:44 pm
Not bold enough, IMO. Sanders is a real threat to her at this point and she needed to go big and co-opt his message. She should have called out the banks by name, and announced that she was not taking money from the top 5 New York banks. Even if those banks really are her 'friends', they are not her friends in that they're hurting her path to the nomination, and by extension the presidency.

So at the end of the day she has to decide whether she wants to be president or not and whether she's willing to actually take risks to get there. Because this tepid Hillary is just pathetic. It's almost as if there's no life pumping in there. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up like Martha Coakley.
5  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 13, 2015, 05:36:55 pm
It seems more unjust to require prostitutes to serve every client regardless of race or ethnicity than it does for other professionals.

...may I ask why you think that?

Because I don't want a woman to have to face the choice between ing a guy she doesn't want to and losing her livelihood.
6  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 13, 2015, 05:33:04 pm
Of course my opinions are subjective. This is political debate, not mathematical proof.

I think my point has been made pretty clearly. It seems more unjust to cut off unemployment benefits to someone for refusing a job as a prostitute, than for refusing almost any other job. It seems more unjust to require prostitutes to serve every client regardless of race or ethnicity than it does for other professionals. Prostitution seems qualitatively different from other professions, for sexual coercion seems more egregious than nonsexual coercion. It is for the same reason that rape seems more egregious than simple assault. Yes, this is subjective, but it is a subjective opinion that almost everyone shares, including probably yourself?

The fact that almost everyone shares this opinion matters of its own accord. The difference with gay marriage is that same sex couples actually wanted to get married, and it was the rest of society (straights) telling them they couldn't. But in this case, the actual sex workers and women and men potentially drawn into sex work feel the same way as everyone else. I do not care why they feel this way, all that matters is that they do. And I don't see society's views on sexual coercion becoming more tolerant any time soon, but even if it were to happen, these attitudes would have to lead the way first before our attitudes towards sex work vis-a-vis nonsexual work were to change.

Of course I agree with regard to improving the general status of labor being the broader issue, and as my comments suggest I am not opposed to legalization, although my preference would be for decriminalization. Really it matters more to me that you are thinking about this issue in a nuanced way than what final position you come up with.
7  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 13, 2015, 11:29:36 am
You guys don't read my posts, and then you accuse me of not engaging or throwing out accusations without substantiation. My sole objection in this thread regarding how we think about prostitution is essentially the (thoughtless, in my view) assertion that it's just a job like any other. It's Monday and I'm too busy at the moment to get into repeating myself here, but I might reply later tonight.
8  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 13, 2015, 11:19:32 am
Haha, I very rarely read tumblr. But even so, I've seen enough to know that merely being on that platform should not be grounds for dismissal.

And given the massive uprising to get prohibition repealed, I'd say people in the U.S. do view alchohol as an entitlement. If a liquor store refused to serve blacks, that would be grounds for a lawsuit, no?
9  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 13, 2015, 10:21:24 am
The substantiation is, not even a social conservative like jmfcst would suggest something like state run brothels.

Compared to a thoughtless libertarian "legalize it", it's far more pro-prostitution, because a libertarian can at least stand on the principle that although he personally dislikes prostitution, that is not a justification for the state to ban it if other people want to engage in it. Siniliar arguments about negative liberties are used at the time in many contexts; for example defending the free speech of someone whose speech you find distasteful (let's say hate speech). That is a far cry from wanting the state to set up radio stations repeating that speech. How is this different? The state run brothel is far more radically pro prostitution than even the most extreme mainstream pro-legalization position.

It is sexist because a state provision of a good is pretty much the most explicit endorsement possible of the idea that people are entitled to such goods, is it not? If I say the state should provide food, shelter, defense, health care, a lawyer if you cannot afford one, and so on this typically means I think people are entitled to such things. The notion that the state should provide access to womens vaginas endorses the idea that people are entitled to them. It equates access to p___y with a resource, like education or health care. Social conservatives also think this way, but at least they would not make it so explicit-- the family patriarchy is almost humane in comparison. What happens if the state-employee prostitute turns away someone for being Chinese? Is this grounds for a civil rights violation lawsuit? The state should not be in the business of exploiting women's (as sex workers overwhelmingly are) economic vulnerability to play pimp. Even in a socialist society where prostitution were legal as a niche of capitalism, the state should provide all men and women with a living wage as a matter of guarantee, and stay out of the business of prostitition.
10  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Democrats: Concede One State on: July 13, 2015, 04:06:57 am

Well we can't say Colorado because it's too stereotypical, apparently.
11  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Democrats: Concede One State on: July 13, 2015, 02:53:03 am
12  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 13, 2015, 02:45:04 am
Of course the sexist dominated left is circling the wagons in this thread to pat each other on the back, meanwhile studiously avoiding any actual debate or exchange of ideas, whilst at the same time making proposals that would make even the most typical male chauvinist, or jmfcst type, look like a feminist.
13  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: The CrabCake Bureau of Funny Post Archival on: July 12, 2015, 10:36:25 pm
Look, guy, I'm sorry that you care more about the feelings of beltway hacks like Jonah Goldberg and Charles Krauthammer than you do about the well-being of working Americans who are desperately crying out for a champion, who understands them and their issues, the working Americans who can't write a $5 million check to Jeb Bush's Super PAC every time they need something. These people have no voice, and Donald Trump is finally, FINALLY giving them one. Donald Trump is the great American success story. He worked hard, got great grades, and then he went out and made a fortune, a tremendous fortune, a fortune that bozos like you probably won't even be able to understand when he releases his disclosures. Unlike Bush, who is an unemployed loser, let's be frank, Donald Trump isn't beholden to anyone. He's not going to open the borders and let in another forty million illegals like Jeb's idiot brother did, just because the Wall Street fatcats told him to.
14  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Donald Trump is a bigger flip flopper than Mitt Romney ever was on: July 12, 2015, 10:19:24 pm
Because even AFTER Romney 'flip flopped' he still came across as an insincere, smarmy businessman in a suit. Trump on the other hand is really saying things that, from the perspective of racist conservatives, is what they really want to hear, particularly as he's seen to be standing up to the 'liberal media' and 'political correctness'. They couldn't care if he was a communist last year. He's throwing real red meat at them (which Romney never did) and after this summer's explosion of social liberalism they're a hungry pack of mangy, starving dogs ready to eat it up.
15  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: 2016 Primary Endorsements megathread. on: July 12, 2015, 08:17:03 pm


Noted that Sanders does far worse (up to 20 pts) than Clinton in head-to-head matchups against Bush. The largest gap is among K-12 teachers; the smallest among higher ed teachers (also the most socioeconomically privileged group).
16  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: ACP/NBC:Clinton polls like Obama 2012, geographically (cities/rural/'burbs/etc.) on: July 12, 2015, 04:31:37 pm
Yes it could be bad news for Republicans... If she wins the nomination.
17  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Webb: Democratic Party has moved "way far to the left" on: July 12, 2015, 04:29:19 pm
So Jim Webb won't be supporting Bernie Sanders?
18  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 10, 2015, 04:21:59 pm
It is interesting, isn't it? You'd think that as a communist, even if he saw sex work as identical to other work, he'd be arguing that all paid work should be abolished as inherently exploitative, not pulling out libertarian (or liberal feminist) slogans about 'women are smart enough to make their own decisions! [free them from] the overbearing state' that are about one step away from the caricatured 'stripping is empowering!' nonsense that is actually a strawman of the legalization position. It's almost as if there's no reason Miriam Weeks isn't a communist.

TNF- I apologize for coming off hostile... I don't really have anything against you personally, although I realize it might seem that way. I just find your positions very baffling/problematic.
19  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 10, 2015, 03:36:14 pm
Does anyone else find the assumption that no matter what a man does, the real motive must be to get laid incredibly misandrist?
20  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 10, 2015, 03:23:33 pm
Feminism has historically been about as dominated by the middle class as Marxism has been dominated by men... a cross class sisterhood of women is about as likely as a cross nation brother of men... and what of it?

I'm sorry, could you translate this to English for me? Because I can't make heads or tails of it.

A cross class sisterhood of women is about as likely as a cross nation brotherhood of the working class. Meaning, middle class feminist reductivism is no more unrealistic than patriarchal Marxist reductivism. Both are quite absurd, but feminism has at least given birth to the concept of intersectionality, which is a step towards aligning theory with reality.

I'm arguing about sex work from a Marxist perspective, so I think it's only right that I qualify my position as such. Again, there's nothing inherently 'right-wing' about anything I'm saying, unless of course, you don't understand what 'right-wing' means. I'm not arguing in favor of male chauvinism or allowing men to control women's bodies. Quite the opposite. You, on the other hand, are arguing for just that, albeit in the form of arguing that women are in need of special protection from the state from 'bad men' who purchase sexual favors for them.

I'm just saying you're making arguments that are functionally identical to ones made by right-wingers. What does that mean? I don't know. Maybe those right-wingers are actually secret Marxists and just don't know it yet. Or maybe the definitions of left-wing/right-wing themselves are matters for discussion.

I would argue that in the context of discussion of gender related issues, socially critical feminist perspectives are left-wing, whereas libertarian arguments are right-wing. If this was a discussion of tax cuts and I came into the debate in favor, on feminist grounds, then I would be functionally still taking a right-wing position.

Quote from: Beet
I'm sorry, have you addressed a single point that I have presented in this thread or any other that I've engaged with you in? Because it seems to me the only thing you're interested in doing is trying to paint me as some kind of reactionary when I expose your position as fundamentally retrograde.

It's true, after you misrepresented my simple comment to you in the other thread, then ignored me when I clarified it, and then ignored me again my elaboration of that position in this thread, then ignored two other posters making the same points, I did stop engaging you on your points. One can't engage in nothing. I'm engaging you now on your framing in this thread because you engaged me on it, not because I was unwilling to engage you on other points.

Now you're just doing ad hominem attacks.
White Knighting is not feminism.
21  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 10, 2015, 02:50:59 pm
Feminism has historically been about as dominated by the middle class as Marxism has been dominated by men... a cross class sisterhood of women is about as likely as a cross nation brother of men... and what of it?

This discussion isn't about Marxism, it's about sex work. And arguments such as 'sex work is just like any other work', 'the only difference from pornography is the presence of a camera', 'trust women to make their own decisions', and 'you're treating women as weak' are all functionally identical to standard libertarian and conservative arguments. By the way, so is 'is there really an epidemic of rape going on in college campuses?' Literally every time you address a women's issue, you take the right-wing position, using literally the same phrases that right-wingers use, and then try to wave it all away with 'Marxism'.

You calling out DimpledChad for arguing in bad faith because you think he ignored logical responses to his points is ironic, because I could say the same for you.
22  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Sex work on: July 10, 2015, 01:59:34 pm
To look at the arguments of the pro-prostitution liberal left is to enter a strange and frankly kind of gross world in which treating sex as an in principle separate sphere of life from employment--surely a novel and incomprehensible distinction to make!--is just one of 'society's hang-ups', consent to sex and consent to employment should be held to directly equivalent standards, and 'sex-negative' is a non-joke concept.

Reality and rationality may seem strange and gross to those living in a moralistic world of delusion and nonsense, yes.

Again somebody has used 'moralistic' as an insult as if caring about right and wrong when making policy is in some way a bad thing. I think this says more than I could.

This. This, so much.

They keep retreating to attacks on feminism. I swear, half the time it seems like I'm debating with conservatives.

TNF's self identification as a "communist" means that he gets to identify as part of the 'far left' even though he's actually on the far right in this debate.
23  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: looks like Tsipras has folded on: July 10, 2015, 11:47:46 am
When even a country is unable to stand up to the bankers, it's really time to reign their powers in. Too bad the TISA agreement being negotiated between the US, EU, and some other countries would make the bankers even less regulated and more powerful.

Bankers have very little to do with this. It is one country against 18.

A part of me wanted to see Merkel call a referendum in Germany to find out if Germany is a nation of bankers. Smiley
24  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: In U.S., Socialist Presidential Candidates Least Appealing on: July 10, 2015, 11:45:32 am
Social Security isn't socialism, it's a re-distributive program. Socialism means public ownership of the means of production, e.g., ownership by the workers or the government of society's assets.
25  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Will Greece keep the Euro? on: July 10, 2015, 02:16:04 am
No. If they do, the long-term pain will far exceed the short-term pain of returning to the drachma. Greece has already suffered so much long-term pain for little gain that it's hard to see them wanting more of the same.

Well, according to that Belgian dude Torie linked to, it sounds like the long-term pain of Greece not reforming its clientelistic/socialist economy will be far worse than taking the E.U.'s medicine.
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