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October 21, 2014, 07:01:23 am
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26  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: What's wrong with secession? on: October 09, 2014, 05:20:32 pm
If a region wants to secede, and they hold a referendum wherein a majority of the population votes to secede, then they should be free to do so.

As for a state changing allegiances, from a game-perspective, this is simply not a box you want to open. The nature of Atlasia is such that one or two people alone could change a states' allegiances under such a system. You'd just have a constant game of musical chairs and people in charge of making the game actually work would get nothing but a headache. It's why we have regional consent for boundary changes.

Unfortunately that's not true. The Plebisicite Clause Removal Amendment only passed two regions, so the constitution still reads: A State by plebiscite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.

You misunderstand me, I wasn't arguing against the way things are structured right now, merely against a theoretical system where a state could decide if it wanted to switch regions purely based on its own inhabitants. My point was that such a system would be a terrific headache, and we have things in place now to prevent that from happening because many states only have a one, two, or three citizens and those shifts could, in theory, happen constantly.
27  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: On Recent Events and the Future of Atlasia on: October 09, 2014, 05:14:15 pm
So if you'd oppose any fundamental game reform, particularly if it entailed major changes at the structural level of the game?  I guess if that's the case, we might as well make sure we mean the same thing when we use terms.  When you refer to and have referred to as "game reform," are you referring to what you described as "minor mechanical tweaks" rather than fundamental changes to the way the game works?

I feel like you don't read half the posts you respond to. The idea that you would accuse me, of all people, of opposing fundamental game reform changes, is baffling. Have you read anything I write around here?

I support major changes if they are well-thought out, good for the long-term health of the game without just being a flash in the pan, and make the game we have now more enjoyable without turning it into something wholly different. This is why I support things like re-editing down the Constitution, BK's regular legislative reboots, changing election systems, and giving more powers to people who wish to make use of them, and not things like random crises or breaking the game into five separate pieces, ideas that are not particularly well-considered, especially in the long-term.
28  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: What's wrong with secession? on: October 09, 2014, 05:02:59 pm
If a region wants to secede, and they hold a referendum wherein a majority of the population votes to secede, then they should be free to do so.

As for a state changing allegiances, from a game-perspective, this is simply not a box you want to open. The nature of Atlasia is such that one or two people alone could change a states' allegiances under such a system. You'd just have a constant game of musical chairs and people in charge of making the game actually work would get nothing but a headache. It's why we have regional consent for boundary changes.
29  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: On Recent Events and the Future of Atlasia on: October 09, 2014, 04:59:41 pm
The argument here just seems dumb. It highlights a reasonable problem to talk about (the lack of day-to-day events un-elected people can participate in, the stodgy bureaucracy) but the solution is basically just "Let's have random crippling crises all the time! One week we can have a coup, next week we can have a civil war, the week after that we can have a devestating earthquake where we lose a chunk of California..." and this is not sustainable, if even at all desirable. There's a discussion to be had here, but if "let's have constant, rotating forms of chaos!" is present in this discussion there's not much of a logical argument that can be had against that.

I'm not saying it has to be rotating forms of chaos (although I don't think I'm alone in considering that a *potentially* viable alternative worth exploring).  I'm asking in good faith to hear your alternative solution.  If you want to say "I don't think your idea is sustainable because a,b,c, and d, but here's what we should do instead...," I am all ears.  In other words, if you think what I'm advocating is a bad idea, fine (although I'd appreciate it if you'd at least explain why, even if they seems self-evident to you), but I'd ask that you offer some sort of alternative.  I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

There is no real response to this. What you want is fundamentally different from what this game provides. It would be like a person joining the Model U.N. and then wondering where all the hot action was. The game is always in need of mechanical tweaks but apart from offering the avenues for change for those who wish to make use of them (official options for secession, for instance) Atlasia is what it is.

I disagree with your fundamental premise. The game prior to the recent insanity was in better shape than it has been in a long time. Don't confuse political crises (the failed Presidency of DemPGH and some of the internal conflicts within the larger establishment parties) with mechanical issues.

It is a shame that two people can agree on so many things, so often, yet bitterly oppose each other for things picked up third-hand.
30  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: Amendment to the Fair De-Registration Rights Act (Debating) on: October 09, 2014, 04:55:23 pm
Just to gauge support, would people be more amenable to scrapping deregistration entirely?

I've never understood the argument against de-registration. It just strikes me as some weird paternalistic "we need to protect people from themselves!" position. The current system doesn't forcibly remove people from the game against their will. The power has been used sparingly and it's a conscious decision that person is making for themselves. You would just be taking away an option.
31  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: What's wrong with secession? on: October 09, 2014, 04:45:28 pm
The activity of most regional legislatures in comparison to the national legislature, even when fully staffed, is usually anemic. If you got rid of the federal government you'd free up about a dozen (ostensibly) active offices. That's not enough to make five different countries bustling and the logistics involved in managing five different countries with absolutely any basis in reality (GM-like positions, separate supreme courts with more than just one person on staff) would completely burn people out and stretch active people even further than we have now.

So what do you propose we do instead?

Nothing. If a region wants to secede then obviously they should be free to vote on doing so, but I am not one to hop on flavor of the week ideas, and I've seen plenty.
32  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: On Recent Events and the Future of Atlasia on: October 09, 2014, 04:39:04 pm
The argument here just seems dumb. It highlights a reasonable problem to talk about (the lack of day-to-day events un-elected people can participate in, the stodgy bureaucracy) but the solution is basically just "Let's have random crippling crises all the time! One week we can have a coup, next week we can have a civil war, the week after that we can have a devestating earthquake where we lose a chunk of California..." and this is not sustainable, if even at all desirable. There's a discussion to be had here, but if "let's have constant, rotating forms of chaos!" is present in this discussion there's not much of a logical argument that can be had against that.
33  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: What's wrong with secession? on: October 09, 2014, 04:35:34 pm
The activity of most regional legislatures in comparison to the national legislature, even when fully staffed, is usually anemic. If you got rid of the federal government you'd free up about a dozen (ostensibly) active offices. That's not enough to make five different countries bustling and the logistics involved in managing five different countries with absolutely any basis in reality (GM-like positions, separate supreme courts with more than just one person on staff) would completely burn people out and stretch active people even further than we have now.
34  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: A Speech on: October 08, 2014, 03:17:53 pm
I like the idea of making people adhere to the GM's word, but I'm not sure how to implement this in a way that would be reasonable

That's because there isn't one. It's an impractical and dangerous idea that conflicts directly with freedom of speech and freedom of conscience. The GM simulates events, but neither he nor anyone else should have the authority to limit how people are allowed to react to or interpret those events.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.
35  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Atlasians Against Politically-Motivated Expulsions on: October 08, 2014, 03:14:31 pm
x Marokai

Secession is something I am one of the farthest individuals from supporting around here, but anyone, even Senators, should be able to believe in it if that's what they choose to, because come on.
36  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Marokai/Antonio V: Let Us Cling Together. on: October 08, 2014, 03:13:37 pm
I respect Lumine quite a bit, and he and I were very much of one mind throughout the recent crisis ("Can we get this over with already?!") but supporting the expulsion of a member of the Senate for his (admittedly extreme) political beliefs is a rather dangerous precedent to be setting and I completely oppose it.

Let me be clear about that: I don't support regional secessionist movements in any way and I never have. But these are opinions that Deus is free to hold in a free f**king country. Arguing that holding those beliefs means a person "no longer desires to perform the duties vested in him" is an incredibly stretch of logic.

Given the instability Atlasia has suffered in recent days, we don't need to continue that by letting the Senate start eating their own.
37  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Well, this is strange... on: October 07, 2014, 04:42:53 pm
Wonderful news!
38  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Petition to get this to stop, please. on: October 06, 2014, 05:40:39 pm
x Marokai
39  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Labor Party Fall 2014 Convention - San Francisco, CA - BYLAW MODIFICATION VO on: October 06, 2014, 02:43:34 am
1. Yes.
2. Two Terms.
3. Chair & VC.
40  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: The People's Party October Convention - Friday 3 October - Wednesday 8 October on: October 05, 2014, 04:54:53 pm
I suppose I don't stand much of a chance at this but I may as well make the effort. Tongue

The last few days have been instructive on what my strengths and weaknesses are, I admit this. I'm really bad at role-playing. Just one of the many reasons I never get to play D&D with all the cool kids. But nevertheless I have demonstrated in the past that I care deeply about the ins-and-outs of how Atlasia works and when given the opportunity, I am a tireless worker of policy.

I have been around for a long time now and so have many of you in TPP. I recognize in a lot of ways TPP tends to be born out of frustration with the game, and the broader political landscape. I've been with Labor since the beginning, but wherever I have been, I have always been my own, maintaining close personal and working relationships with many of those outside of the rest of the cliques most people tend to stay within. Whenever people bother to work with me, or get to know me, we can admire each other, and respect each other, and work with each other.

Duke always used to tell me there was a part of me that belonged in TPP. In many ways he's not wrong. I share most of the same priorities as the rest of you. A distaste for shenanigans, a never-ending desire to make the game more interesting, to work together with no vicious personal campaigns. Many of you agree we should reform the constitution, better our wiki, alter our elections, that our game needs periodic clean slates. There has been no better advocate for these things for as long a time as I. There has been no other individual as frequently willing to put these proposals into writing for as long as I.

I'll happily answer questions you have, if you have them, but I just ask for your honest consideration.

Though I understand if it's difficult, particularly in all the chaos, where the rest of Atlasia looks like this at the moment:

41  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Department of Internal Affairs - Secretary Cranberry on: October 05, 2014, 04:44:40 pm
There's literally no reason to believe the MW government has "collapsed" except for whatever fanfiction people are pulling out of their asses. The Governor is still in office. The government is entirely working as intended.

In fact, there's been literally no reason for anything that's happened in the last two days to have happened at all. The President resigned and the next in line took his place. That's it. This is all basically a step below LARPing.
42  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Magnolia Tree Polling - Secession on: October 05, 2014, 12:36:39 pm
Of course not. I have honour.

Hmm...
43  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Office of Senator Cynic: Chaos and Sh*t on: October 04, 2014, 09:48:27 pm
What a day this has been.

Indeed Marokai, indeed.

I swear I left to cook dinner, and the country had basically broken out in civil war.

The last couple days here have basically convinced me that I'm the nerdy kid who got invited to a group study session thinking it wasn't actually an excuse to throw a party and am spending the rest of the movie sitting in a corner somewhere.
44  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Magnolia Tree Polling - Secession on: October 04, 2014, 07:15:37 pm
No
45  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: COUPDATE LIVE FEED: your one-stop source for "WTF IS HAPPENING" (UPDATED) on: October 04, 2014, 12:40:38 am
I pick great times to run for President.
46  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Office of Senator Cynic: Chaos and Sh*t on: October 03, 2014, 11:42:47 pm
What a day this has been.
47  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: French presidential election, 2012 (1st round) on: October 03, 2014, 09:18:43 pm
Melenchon
48  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: Untitled GM Amendment (Debating) on: October 03, 2014, 05:02:40 pm
Fair enough. I hope the Senate will exercise oversight in the future if needed.
49  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: Untitled GM Amendment (Debating) on: October 03, 2014, 04:34:31 pm
Besides, the position has been dysfunctional for as long as most of us have been here. Even promising candidates burn out after a few weeks, or, at best, a couple of months, and now that the office's credibility has collapsed, it has ceased to add anything of value to the game. Trying something reasonable is less risky than letting it rot.

I don't disagree with the sentiment behind this, but I still fail to see what this specific proposal would do to resolve that problem. We would merely be making it harder to get rid of a GM, and nothing more. It doesn't touch on any problem aside from preventing an astronomically rare abuse of power.

The Game Moderator shouldn't be subject to summary dismissal for the same reasons why members of the Supreme Court should not be vulnerable to summary dismissal. Making it more difficult to fire someone makes that position more independent, less contingent on the priorities of other political actors, and less subject to political pressure which at least four of the past five GMs (Adam, Simfan, Sirnick, and I) admit to having felt.

When I was GM I wrote recurring stories about a nativist resistance movement in parts of Oceania, and this was repeatedly ignored every time I tried to get people to pay attention to it. It infuriated me. I also wrote a story about abortion law in the Mideast that caused a bunch of them to get on my ass and accuse me of writing partisan stories.

In the end, I resigned out of protest because the authority of the position was not being respected enough, but it had nothing to do with political pressure or the threat of being fired that brought me down or caused people to not listen to my narratives. Protection from dismissal wouldn't have made people suddenly start listening. These are completely separate problems.
50  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: OFFICE OF PROVISIONAL CHAIRMAN OF THE REVOLUTIONARY JUNTA on: October 03, 2014, 04:17:52 pm
This is why getting rid of a neutral arbiter is a terrible idea. These boards would be nothing but threads like this.
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