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1  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 12-year-old Shot Dead by Police on: November 26, 2014, 06:19:36 pm
Has it been addressed in this thread that the 911 dispatcher asked the caller twice whether this 12 year old was black or white?

Yes, the black woman dispatcher asked that because the person didn't give a description of whether the suspect was black or white. Eventually, the caller answered.
2  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 12-year-old Shot Dead by Police on: November 26, 2014, 04:11:56 pm
Yes, I see twelve year old children with toy guns as innocent. Because I'm not a sociopathic fascist.

You keep repeating that these monsters are "trained" to do such a thing. I don't care that he's trained to murder children. That doesn't make him any less guilty of murdering children.

But the 911 call didn't say "12 year old child with a toy" it said, "We have a black man waving a gun".

No, the 911 caller literally said the gun was "probably fake."

I know, but you still can't task the risk.

3  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: GOP Mulls Not Inviting Obama to Give State of the Union on: November 26, 2014, 04:03:20 pm
But we're winning Smiley

Gov. Rick Scott haha
4  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 12-year-old Shot Dead by Police on: November 26, 2014, 04:02:53 pm
Yes, I see twelve year old children with toy guns as innocent. Because I'm not a sociopathic fascist.

You keep repeating that these monsters are "trained" to do such a thing. I don't care that he's trained to murder children. That doesn't make him any less guilty of murdering children.

But the 911 call didn't say "12 year old child with a toy" it said, "We have a black man waving a gun".
5  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 12-year-old Shot Dead by Police on: November 26, 2014, 03:41:08 pm
That video is insane. The car sped off the road, the policeman jumped out of the car door, and immediately gunned the kid down. WTF. There is absolutely no excuse here. Any danger the cop felt was danger he intentionally put himself in. WTF

He was trained to do such a thing. If the person is a threat he is putting HIMSELF between the suspect and innocent people.

Again, you see the antagonists as innocent in every single one of these situations.
6  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 12-year-old Shot Dead by Police on: November 26, 2014, 03:34:57 pm
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html

Video was just released. It shows the 12 year old approaching the front of the police car.

That alone would be justifiable cause. 911 call of a guy waving a gun, cops pull up, suspect with gun approaches.

Can't even see what the guy was holding, if anything, in that video.  What I can see is a police car driving off road for no apparent reason other than to make an intimidating charge at the suspect under circumstances in which there was absolutely no apparent reason for them to do so.

Getting a call that their is a guy waving a gun around is a pretty damn serious call.
7  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 03:16:06 pm
I'm going to tell you something, as someone who was trained on weapons in combat during military training. Do you think that those who are the trainers think any differently than me? Do you think a liberal educator from Berkeley is training police officers? No. It's probably some fat gray haired guy with a mustache who was driving around town as a patrolman when Jimmy Carter was President. They aren't training police officers to use restraint, they're training them to eliminate threats.

Yes. I believe a systemic problem is systemic. Thanks for asking.

To avoid lumping me in, I think the officer acted according to procedure and should not be prosecuted in this case. But the procedure is wrong.

I've heard liberals say things during the last 48 hrs up to and including "the cop should have been the one to back down."

Do they realize what they're saying or is it anger?

Effective policing requires to know when backing down is in the best interest of public safety.  By all accounts, the culture of the Ferguson Police was ignorant of that fact, and instead treated Cartman of South Park as a role model for how to be a police officer.

The police are not the ones who back down, the criminal does. If the criminal doesn't, the police use force. If the police feel that their own lives or the lives of others are in danger, deadly force is authorized.

8  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 12-year-old Shot Dead by Police on: November 26, 2014, 03:14:52 pm
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html

Video was just released. It shows the 12 year old approaching the front of the police car.

That alone would be justifiable cause. 911 call of a guy waving a gun, cops pull up, suspect with gun approaches.

9  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 03:08:25 pm
I'm going to tell you something, as someone who was trained on weapons in combat during military training. Do you think that those who are the trainers think any differently than me? Do you think a liberal educator from Berkeley is training police officers? No. It's probably some fat gray haired guy with a mustache who was driving around town as a patrolman when Jimmy Carter was President. They aren't training police officers to use restraint, they're training them to eliminate threats.

Yes. I believe a systemic problem is systemic. Thanks for asking.

To avoid lumping me in, I think the officer acted according to procedure and should not be prosecuted in this case. But the procedure is wrong.

I've heard liberals say things during the last 48 hrs up to and including "the cop should have been the one to back down."

Do they realize what they're saying or is it anger?
10  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 03:02:42 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCWUufgRFU

Here's another one. The guy has a knife. The two officers spend five minutes trying to talk to the guy. Then they try the taser. The guy lunges at them.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. It's not. But it is what it is.

That looked more like stumbling to his feet than lunging at them.

Also, the dispatch call was that man was threatening to commit suicide, so shooting him in the head wasn't really a successful outcome.

Now you're just playing devil's advocate. The bottom line is that you are not going to find any of these 100% justifiable. You're one of those people where it's NEVER good enough. Where you'll always find something to nitpick.

I'm going to tell you something, as someone who was trained on weapons in combat during military training. Do you think that those who are the trainers think any differently than me? Do you think a liberal educator from Berkeley is training police officers? No. It's probably some fat gray haired guy with a mustache who was driving around town as a patrolman when Jimmy Carter was President. They aren't training police officers to use restraint, they're training them to eliminate threats.

Michael Brown was a threat. He was eliminated. Cry about it. Whine about it. Break a McDonald's window. The bottom line, he was the bad guy and the good guys won.

11  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 02:54:07 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCWUufgRFU

Here's another one. The guy has a knife. The two officers spend five minutes trying to talk to the guy. Then they try the taser. The guy lunges at them.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. It's not. But it is what it is.
12  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 02:47:37 pm


Are you suggesting that American police officers are not adequately trained?

Quote
Besides that, if the criminal kept coming at the officer, the officer has just cause to keep firing.

There were, what, six bullets in Brown's body? I'm no firearms expert, but it occurs to me that maybe you're confusing reality with action films again?

It's not a question of training, it's a natural human instinct.

I'll give you an example. Let's say a woman who owned a firearm had an armed robber breaking in her house. She shot him. She's crying. The police ask her how many times did you fire the gun? She might sincerely say, "four times", but when police check the gun, she might have fired nine times. It's a natural human survival response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-n5BMR_-wI

That video is of what was determined to be a justified police shooting of Ernesto Duenez Jr. in 2011. He was wanted in connection with an incident of domestic-violence reported earlier the same day and officers has been stalking out the house for some hours. He was charging at an officer with a knife. He was known in the neighborhood and a warrant was out for him.

Note that around the 5 min mark, the officer is asked, "How many shots did you fire?" The officer responds, "Somewhere in the neighborhood of six" when he had, as you can see on the tape, had actually fired 13 shots.

THAT is what I am talking about.


Sounds like a lack of training, Michael.

Not at all, Grumps. What do you think they say when training officers? "Make sure to count how many shots you fire" or "Make sure the suspect is down"?

I want the guy carrying one to have complete control of it, and himself, yes, Mike.  I don't think that's asking a Herculean amount.....

That's like asking a man how many times he retched while vomiting.
13  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 02:41:22 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuOEJKiKELA

THIS happened within 30 miles of where I live last year. Man pulled over for a traffic violation, yanks out an AK-47 and shoots at officers. The officers returned fire until the suspect's body was moribund.

I think you guys are the ones thinking it's like the movies. One shot, saying, "Hey buddy! Put your hands up!" That isn't real life. Real life trains those in these situations to eliminate the threat. If that means making sure the suspect is down, then that's what it is.

It doesn't matter if the suspect had a knife, or a hand grenade or was going for a gun. If just cause is found, the suspect can be killed using deadly force. Whether that's one bullet to the head or seventeen to the chest, it doesn't matter.
14  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 02:28:03 pm


Are you suggesting that American police officers are not adequately trained?

Quote
Besides that, if the criminal kept coming at the officer, the officer has just cause to keep firing.

There were, what, six bullets in Brown's body? I'm no firearms expert, but it occurs to me that maybe you're confusing reality with action films again?

It's not a question of training, it's a natural human instinct.

I'll give you an example. Let's say a woman who owned a firearm had an armed robber breaking in her house. She shot him. She's crying. The police ask her how many times did you fire the gun? She might sincerely say, "four times", but when police check the gun, she might have fired nine times. It's a natural human survival response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-n5BMR_-wI

That video is of what was determined to be a justified police shooting of Ernesto Duenez Jr. in 2011. He was wanted in connection with an incident of domestic-violence reported earlier the same day and officers has been stalking out the house for some hours. He was charging at an officer with a knife. He was known in the neighborhood and a warrant was out for him.

Note that around the 5 min mark, the officer is asked, "How many shots did you fire?" The officer responds, "Somewhere in the neighborhood of six" when he had, as you can see on the tape, had actually fired 13 shots.

THAT is what I am talking about.


Sounds like a lack of training, Michael.

Not at all, Grumps. What do you think they say when training officers? "Make sure to count how many shots you fire" or "Make sure the suspect is down"?
15  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 02:23:22 pm


Are you suggesting that American police officers are not adequately trained?

Quote
Besides that, if the criminal kept coming at the officer, the officer has just cause to keep firing.

There were, what, six bullets in Brown's body? I'm no firearms expert, but it occurs to me that maybe you're confusing reality with action films again?

It's not a question of training, it's a natural human instinct.

I'll give you an example. Let's say a woman who owned a firearm had an armed robber breaking in her house. She shot him. She's crying. The police ask her how many times did you fire the gun? She might sincerely say, "four times", but when police check the gun, she might have fired nine times. It's a natural human survival response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-n5BMR_-wI

That video is of what was determined to be a justified police shooting of Ernesto Duenez Jr. in 2011. He was wanted in connection with an incident of domestic-violence reported earlier the same day and officers has been stalking out the house for some hours. He was charging at an officer with a knife. He was known in the neighborhood and a warrant was out for him.

Note that around the 5 min mark, the officer is asked, "How many shots did you fire?" The officer responds, "Somewhere in the neighborhood of six" when he had, as you can see on the tape, had actually fired 13 shots.

THAT is what I am talking about.
16  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 01:48:53 pm
Its one thing to shoot someone, surely quite another to empty your clip into him? Right? I mean this strikes me as a not unimportant point here.

That's another thing that liberals don't understand.

Many many times, in shooting situations whether it was cop vs criminal or civilian vs. criminal, what we have seen is where a person says they fired three shots when they might have fired as many as ten. This comes from the "survival" instinct where your mind doesn't accurately record how many times you squeeze the trigger.

Besides that, if the criminal kept coming at the officer, the officer has just cause to keep firing.
17  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 01:44:57 pm
What's it matter whether Michael Brown was a "bad guy"? Even if he were, I've not seen any legitimate argument for why deadly force was in any way reasonable.

Absolutely incorrect. You have an angry, hostile, 6 ft 3 inches 300 lb man punching a cop and grabbing at his gun, deadly force is authorized. There isn't a single criminal attorney would could have taken this case and had a prayer.

18  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 26, 2014, 01:37:31 pm
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-contributor-dont-make-bad-guy-michael-brown-into-civil-rights-martyr/

Bernie Goldberg brought up how some journalists and activists have been discussing the civil rights angle in Ferguson, and he rather adamantly said that Ferguson isn’t Selma, it’s 2014, not 1965, and Michael Brown is not an innocent like Emmett Till or Medgar Evars:

    “He brought about his own demise. It’s a tragedy when any 18-year-old kid is killed, and especially for the parents… but Michael Brown was the bad guy in this case, and please, America, let’s not turn this kind into some kind of civil rights martyr because that he is not.”

Goldberg added that there is an “ugly racial history” in the United States, but the media does not want an honest discussion about race issues, they want a politically correct one.

This is it right here. Goldberg hit the nail on the head.
19  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Americans favor immigration executive action, 67-28 on: November 26, 2014, 02:37:41 am
It's a very Democratic pollster FYI

The survey was conducted for Americans United for Change, a pro-Democratic group.

Correct.

Quinnipiac just came out with a new poll yesterday and they show a 45-48 split.

Quote
American voters are divided on whether President Barack Obama should take action to address the immigration issue if Congress fails to act, as 45 percent say the president should issue an executive order while 48 percent say he should not, according to a Quinnipiac University National poll released today.

At the same time, support for immigrants is at its lowest level ever measured by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University Poll. Offered three choices on what to do about illegal immigrants:

48 percent of American voters say they should be allowed to stay, with a path to citizenship, down from 57 percent November 13, 2013, and the lowest this number ever has been;

11 percent say immigrants should be allowed to stay, but not be allowed to apply for citizenship, consistent with previous surveys;

35 percent say illegal immigrants should be required to leave the U.S., up from 26 percent 12 months ago and higher than this number ever has been.

There is a wide gender gap on Obama's action, as women support it 50 - 39 percent, while men oppose it 57 - 39 percent. Support is 59 - 33 percent among voters 18 to 29 years old, but drops among older voters, with voters over 65 years old opposed 53 - 36 percent.

Democrats support Obama's immigration move 74 - 18 percent, with opposition at 75 - 20 percent among Republicans and 51 - 40 percent among independent voters.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2115

That made me chuckle.
20  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Americans favor immigration executive action, 67-28 on: November 26, 2014, 02:21:05 am
Obama already only won 39% of white people. If Democrats keep this up, they will become known solely as the party of minorities. Doesn't that worry you even a bit?

That sounds better than getting 8% of blacks, but either way, I don't think Democrats are worried about a perceived connection to minorities.  LMAO.

I didn't say that. You are missing my point.

IF you take away all minority voters, you realize that the Democrats who are damn near out of business in many parts of the country would be even WORSE off than they are today. If only whites voted, Mitt Romney would have won 46 states.

Doesn't that bug you at all, that there is a chance of a massive white backlash beyond 1994, 2010 and 2014? What if the Democratic nominee ended up with only 20% of the white vote in 2016? That was my question, you aren't bothered by that?

I'm not really bothered by that because outside of your fantasies, minorities will continue to exist.

If you're asking me if I am personally troubled as to how whites are now voting, yes, but probably for different reasons than you.

I mean, it's been said that midterm elections keep swaying towards the Republicans more and more because they're an older, whiter electorate. But older and whiter didn't used to mean more Republican.

What did the Democratic Party do so bad to piss off the largest demographic in the entire country?
21  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Americans favor immigration executive action, 67-28 on: November 26, 2014, 02:14:24 am
Obama already only won 39% of white people. If Democrats keep this up, they will become known solely as the party of minorities. Doesn't that worry you even a bit?

That sounds better than getting 8% of blacks, but either way, I don't think Democrats are worried about a perceived connection to minorities.  LMAO.

I didn't say that. You are missing my point.

IF you take away all minority voters, you realize that the Democrats who are damn near out of business in many parts of the country would be even WORSE off than they are today. If only whites voted, Mitt Romney would have won 46 states. If only whites voted, no more Mark Warner. We'd have Senator Scott Brown. You realize that all of the eggs are in one basket.

Doesn't that bug you at all, that there is a chance of a massive white backlash beyond 1994, 2010 and 2014? What if the Democratic nominee ended up with only 20% of the white vote in 2016? That was my question, you aren't bothered by that?
22  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Americans favor immigration executive action, 67-28 on: November 26, 2014, 02:09:32 am
The bigger issue is how it will play out in 2016.  Will reversing Obama's order 'on day one' be a litmus test for GOP primary? And will vowing to ramp up deportations be a liability for the general? That is the big game here.
What Obama and the Democrats are banking on is:

A).  This will be a litmus test issue for the GOP in the 2016 primaries.
B). Hispanics will be extremely in favor of the executive action, and will be highly motivated to turn out because of it.
C). While a majority of the general population may oppose it, it won't be the deciding factor for many people outside of the Hispanic community.   Conservatives may be motivated to turn out by it, but conservative turnout is already sky high, so that will have a limited effect.

Its interesting how much question wording effects the outcome.  My guess is that how public opinion eventually falls will depend a lot on how the debate unfolds.

Obama already only won 39% of white people. If Democrats keep this up, they will become known solely as the party of minorities. Doesn't that worry you even a bit?
23  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement tonight) on: November 26, 2014, 01:21:09 am
You know, black-white relationships isn't the reason why he wasn't indicted.

In Quebec, we had various issues of policemen shooting on people without reason or speeding without reason, crashing into cars and killing people. Guess what? No indictments, even if both the policeman and the victim were very white. Police and prosecutors cover each other. Thankfully, Quebec gets a reform of that next year (well, the reform is done, but there is normal delays, you can't create a new structure the day the bill passes).

Yes, they were. You don't understand how the criminal justice system works in the United States.

I understand well. It's the "police-prosecutor-(sometimes private prisons)" establishment vs. weak people not being able to defend themselves from law abuses. Most black people are part of the latter, but they're not alone in that latter group.

The prosecutor is supposed to prosecute. But I guess the son of a white cop killed by a black man is going to side with the white cops 100% of the time. This isn't the first time his racist has come out.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/killed-robert-mccullochs-father

Even had this gone to trial, the general agreement is that there was no way in hell they would have found the officer guilty.
24  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Gubernatorial/Statewide Elections / Re: IL Gov- Is Rauner completely cooked, or is there any hope? on: November 26, 2014, 12:30:41 am
I like Rauner.
25  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night) on: November 25, 2014, 08:56:58 pm
Well at least we gave Naso's side a good whupping in the Civil War.

Would you say we spanked 'em?

Because everyone in the CSA was a political conservative and everyone in the North was a political liberal.  God, I swear you guys are all like 19 and have only taken a basic high school American history class when it comes to the Civil War.  You all sound really ignorant equating the Union with liberalism, it's the most laughably hackish thing I see here.

Bernie Goldberg just made a great point that the media and liberals are falsely trying to make this an issue about Civil Rights. It's not. As he just said on Fox News, "Ferguson is not Selma, it's 2014 and not 1965, and Michael Brown is not Emmett Till."

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