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April 01, 2015, 04:19:31 pm
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News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

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76  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pence signed it: Add Indiana to the list of states with "religious freedom" laws on: March 26, 2015, 10:50:52 pm
Do you understand that people of the same religion or denomination can have different religious convictions? 

Yes. I also understand that such convictions, while sincerely held for periods of time are fluid. People can change their understanding of one religion, move into a new one or drop it all together and in doing so adjust their 'conscience' or re-prioritise what is important to them. As a result of that, under the guise of religious freedom of conscience they can conscientiously object to anything and then cease to object to it the next day.

Which we can all do, but we don't all have access to legal 'rights' to discriminate in our views against subsets of people. One would surely expect that if other people had access to the same rights as religious people do over matters of conscience, then if one had a deep and personal objection on the basis of conscience to miscegenation for example that such laws would reflect this. If such laws were fair. Indeed, one of the issues I have with laws like this, is that it gives religious people disproportionate legal protection over matters of conscience.

It seems rational to protect people who have an essential innate trait such as the colour of their skin their gender, their sexual orientation and so on from disproportionate and irrational 'ire' at them being who they are from a powerful majority. Instead we offer protection to a particular religious subset of personal conscience which is subject to alteration, change and complete reversal in order to allow them to disregard civility when dealing with an outsider. Furthermore it cheapens religious faith and traditional religious exemptions by equating the refusal to house, serve, assist and hire people you consider objectionable to the act of worship.

Freedom of worship is a poor substitute for freedom of religion, circumscribing it within a narrow sphere to try to manage it and keep it devoid of social power. The USSR conspicuously kept the former in their Constitution but not the latter.

What bearing should the fluidity of belief systems have on whether people should be allowed to live according to those beliefs?  Just because these views can change does not mean the state should be in the business of reeducating people whose beliefs it does not like.  Nor can they so easily control these beliefs.  Religion has often not rendered unto Caesar when Caesar has demanded more than a coin, and it has its venerated martyrs because of it.  If you want to reason with religious people about their faith you can do it, but not if you try to force them to act against it, for then you have ruined all credibility because you have shown just how much you truly despise and hate those trying to live faithfully according to their religion as they understand it.
77  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Election night 1968, American Independent v Communist on: March 26, 2015, 05:53:57 pm
I'd have to go with Brezhnev, at least blacks could sit wherever they wanted on a bus in the USSR.

or on a train to the Gulag even.
78  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pence signed it: Add Indiana to the list of states with "religious freedom" laws on: March 26, 2015, 05:50:45 pm
LGBT people can sleep safely knowing that if service is denied to them

Yes, they can.  They can sleep safely because their safety is not being threatened by people who do not want to provide them wedding services.  You don't have to ruin someone's business and someone's life in order to sleep safely just because they've done something to offend you.

Ah okay. So these bills relating to personal belief and conscience, which just accidentally have been championed, written and codified with respect to religious belief and conscience only (and I await the soon be tabled amendments to those) and have absolutely nothing to do with targeting a specific out-group who are currently playing catch up with respect to having their persons respected are actually about weddings. And in order to legislate on the matter of weddings, because weddings appear to be very important in a state such as Indiana with one of the highest divorce rates in the country, they have drafted a huge wide ranging law on the matter of...well..just about anything that anyone can find objectionable for any reason they can tie to their faith, even if a person next to them with the same faith doesn't, in order that gays don't get wedding cake.

I wasn't the one claiming this bill was only about gay stuff.  The thing people have been convicted of relating to not serving gays that has caused controversy have had to do with weddings, often with people who are fine with serving gays at other events.

Do you understand that people of the same religion or denomination can have different religious convictions? 
79  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pence signed it: Add Indiana to the list of states with "religious freedom" laws on: March 26, 2015, 04:36:41 pm
LGBT people can sleep safely knowing that if service is denied to them

Yes, they can.  They can sleep safely because their safety is not being threatened by people who do not want to provide them wedding services.  You don't have to ruin someone's business and someone's life in order to sleep safely just because they've done something to offend you.
80  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pence signed it: Add Indiana to the list of states with "religious freedom" laws on: March 26, 2015, 03:55:49 pm
And again, this is only one issue which this law addresses. It's funny how much those who don't give a damn about freedom of conscience were complaining about employers not wanting to offer birth control, now they act like the only religious freedom issue is discrimination against gays because it's a better polemic for them.

True. And if I was a woman or a Muslim I'd be equally as concerned about what excuses people will pull out of their ass for not being a decent human being because of laws like this. But what sort of big social change happening right now in favour of a certain group of people who have suffered open and legal discrimination and harassment, a change that is happening imminently and openly appealed to in the various briefs in support of those bills over the past few years is the catalyst for these legal moves? Don't you think maybe, that religious belief actually has sod all to do with it and it might, just might be an action against a certain minority group?

No, I don't.  People have beliefs that are important to them.  Do you find this odd?
81  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Arkansas bill would let bosses force employees to friend them on Facebook! on: March 26, 2015, 03:42:53 pm
How did this only get 1 vote against it in the House? 
82  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Most Partisan Posters from Both Major Parties on: March 26, 2015, 03:36:21 pm
Those states are not claiming to be drawn in a nonpartisan fashion!   How do you not get this distinction?

Anytime someone on this site agrees with Republicans about anything, they are deemed a GOP hack. 
83  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pence signed it: Add Indiana to the list of states with "religious freedom" laws on: March 26, 2015, 03:30:49 pm
Sure is a lot of hysteria over this.  Washington State has language stronger than this in their Constitution and a judge still allowed the state to drop a huge fine on a florist for not doing a gay wedding.  So don't worry folks, you may well still be able to punish people for living according to religious beliefs you don't like.

How is not offering a service to a gay person on account of them being gay an extension of religious belief? Can you point me to the parts of relevant revealed texts that outline this particular nuance of religious belief?

Part of religious freedom is that religious views are not bounded by those that can be found in approved religious texts. They are a matter of belief and conscience. In the US, we do not have a certain list of approved religions.  The state does not decide what is or is not a valid religious basis for a belief.

Aside from that, if it were only a matter of stopping people from not serving "a gay person on account of them being gay" this issue would be very different. What is happening is people are being prosecuted for not performing roles related to a ceremony which goes against their beliefs.

And again, this is only one issue which this law addresses. It's funny how much those who don't give a damn about freedom of conscience were complaining about employers not wanting to offer birth control, now they act like the only religious freedom issue is discrimination against gays because it's a better polemic for them.
84  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pence signed it: Add Indiana to the list of states with "religious freedom" laws on: March 26, 2015, 03:12:31 pm
Sure is a lot of hysteria over this.  Washington State has language stronger than this in their Constitution and a judge still allowed the state to drop a huge fine on a florist for not doing a gay wedding.  So don't worry folks, you may well still be able to punish people for living according to religious beliefs you don't like.
85  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Most Partisan Posters from Both Major Parties on: March 26, 2015, 02:37:39 pm
Quote from: Mideast Senator and Senate speaker
windjammer link=topic=209433.msg4535019#msg4535019 date=1427239975
There was tmthforu before.

But yeah, Torie and Lief.

Partisan is not a word I would use to describe Torie. 
You definitely should. Have you read his posts in the démography board?

because he thinks independent redistricting commissions fail at what they are claim their goal to be?
86  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: For the Republicans, who are the most important endorsements to get? on: March 26, 2015, 02:26:57 am
We can thank Sheldon Adelson for President Gingrich. We can thank Sean Hannity for President Giuliani.   No, the only endorsement that matters is the Ghost of Ronald Reagan.
87  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: How many posts does the previous poster have? on: March 26, 2015, 02:23:04 am
more than I do.

I have more posts than oakvale now. I find this deeply disturbing.
88  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Opinion of this Image III on: March 26, 2015, 01:43:27 am
kinda cool how they made the streets wavy like the sand.
89  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Cornell Dean Says ISIS "Welcome" at school, compares training camps to sports te on: March 25, 2015, 09:46:06 pm
Didn't sound like "Freedom Fighter" was understood by the Dean as referring to ISIS, but as the people fighting them.  The only thing that was weird about what the Dean said when you consider the misleading questions was that he said there could be training sessions with the freedom fighters just like a sports team. No clue what he meant by that one.
90  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Utah's state House votes 39-34 to reinstitute execution by firing squad on: March 25, 2015, 09:24:30 pm
The prisoner is seated in a chair??  He is shot through slots in a wall?   So he does not even have the small dignity of being able to stand with his face to the people shooting him.  Disgusting.
91  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: The Crazy Cruz Control Thread. on: March 25, 2015, 09:10:05 pm
Galileo mostly was in trouble because he made a not so subtle dig at the Pope by naming the person who argues for a flat earth(a stand in for the pope) "Simplicio" (basically simpleton) in his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems".

The argument was over a geocentric universe, not a flat earth. No person of any learning believed the earth was flat in the 17th century (and hardly any in the 12th century for that matter).
92  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Most Partisan Posters from Both Major Parties on: March 25, 2015, 08:54:15 pm
There was tmthforu before.

But yeah, Torie and Lief.

Partisan is not a word I would use to describe Torie. 
93  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: The Crazy Cruz Control Thread. on: March 25, 2015, 04:28:10 pm
Quote from: Ted Cruz
It used to be [that] it is accepted scientific wisdom the Earth is flat, and this heretic named Galileo was branded a denier.

Most polemical discussions of Galileo are historically misinformed, but that sentence takes the cake.
94  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Opinion of George Pataki on: March 25, 2015, 04:21:57 pm
He's a corrupt joke.

anything in particular?

95  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Opinion of Adam Parkhomenko on: March 25, 2015, 02:56:52 pm
elect Hillary 2004
elect Hillary 2008
Barack/Hillary 2008
endorsed by Bill Clinton in a local Democratic primary, comes in third place.

let's hope this guy's track record continues.
96  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: How would you replace/fix ObamaCare? on: March 25, 2015, 02:30:55 am
Lost in the idea of 4 plans the cover every thing is that there are now just FOUR PLANS THAT COVER EVERYTHING. This is a huge development for the consumer. No more getting bamboozled by fine print--finding out that the insurance they bought for $15/month cheaper premiums doesn't cover injuries from getting hit by a car until after they got hit by a car.  Insurance companies now actually have to drive down the premiums and deductibles by cost cutting in their institutions as opposed to simply stripping plans of benefits to make a pretty advertising price quote.  This is real economic competition in healthcare we are about to see for the first time.

Where do you get this idea that there is no more fine print?  Of course there is. All sorts of exclusions remain, it's just that those exclusions can't discriminate based on age or sex or pre-existing conditions.  You get free birth control, but that doesn't mean your ulcer medication is covered.  And one of the biggest fine prints of all is that these insurance plans on the exchange are mostly HMOs, at least in Virginia, which the website doesn't even disclose unless you are good at deciphering the code words for it.
97  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Opinion of Christopher Hitchens on: March 25, 2015, 02:16:03 am
A brilliant and courageous man. I can't help but like him, as much of a fool he was sometimes.
98  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: The last movie you've seen thread 2014 and 2015 on: March 25, 2015, 02:05:25 am
The Better Angels

very beautifully done with some incredible shots. I found it emotionally engaging, contra many reviewers.
99  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Opinion of the Cabrini-Green Housing Projects? on: March 25, 2015, 01:36:42 am
Cabrini-Green, that name sounds like a great prefab subtropical resort.  How exciting!
100  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: States where African-American candidates have a hard time winning statewide on: March 25, 2015, 01:28:21 am
All states with less than 10% African-Americans. Neither party would be inclined to select an African-American in those.

Massachusetts disagrees.
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