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1  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: House Redistricting Co-op on: Today at 09:19:40 am
Utah:





UT-1: 55.3% O, 41.8% M. Toss-Up
UT-2: 68.9% M, 28.1% O. Safe R
UT-3: 68.4% M, 28.6% O. Safe R
UT-4: 71.6% M, 25.1% O. Safe R

Under this scenario, Utah has a competitive district. It might actually Lean D, perfect for a Matheson candidate. Of course this comes at the expense of the other districts being beyond safe for any republican.


I'm not wild about the northern part of your CD-4. There's no way to get to the Rich and Cache parts from the rest of the CD without taking dirt trails or by driving through WY. Contiguous but disconnected districts (like what I described) are a hallmark of gerrymanders.

For example, consider this plan. It splits no counties except Salt Lake and it splits no municipalities in Salt Lake. The maximum population deviation is less than 500. Other than the fact that the string of contiguous but disconnected counties along the west and south borders is longer than yours the idea is the same. Obama's best district here is only 46.2%.



That UT-01 is problematic; there are basically no road connections (that don't go through Nevada) and the Bonneville Salt Flats are in the way. Let me see if I can do something...

That's my point to ElectionsGuy. If you allow contiguity without connections as he did in the NE corner, then nothing stops a grander sweep like the map I posted. I drew it a couple of years ago to see what the minimum inequality plan was with whole counties and contiguity only.
2  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: America, meet Charlanta on: Today at 09:15:54 am
The demographics are interesting, but growth projections that far forward usually miss migration trends due to unforeseen technologies. 2060 is 46 years away. How many planners in 1968 saw the rise of the Research Triangle and the emergence of NC as a research hub. Back then the discussion was about the relocation of traditional manufacturing to NC from the north, not tech jobs.

Politically the problem is just as difficult. 46 years is well beyond the horizon of major political shifts. Look at the maps of the 1960, 1968 and 1976 elections (all pretty close) and try to use them to try to forecast the Obama maps. It doesn't work, in part because the Reagan era hadn't occurred to lock in a new pattern for the parties.
3  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: House Redistricting Co-op on: Today at 08:07:11 am
Utah:





UT-1: 55.3% O, 41.8% M. Toss-Up
UT-2: 68.9% M, 28.1% O. Safe R
UT-3: 68.4% M, 28.6% O. Safe R
UT-4: 71.6% M, 25.1% O. Safe R

Under this scenario, Utah has a competitive district. It might actually Lean D, perfect for a Matheson candidate. Of course this comes at the expense of the other districts being beyond safe for any republican.


I'm not wild about the northern part of your CD-4. There's no way to get to the Rich and Cache parts from the rest of the CD without taking dirt trails or by driving through WY. Contiguous but disconnected districts (like what I described) are a hallmark of gerrymanders.

For example, consider this plan. It splits no counties except Salt Lake and it splits no municipalities in Salt Lake. The maximum population deviation is less than 500. Other than the fact that the string of contiguous but disconnected counties along the west and south borders is longer than yours the idea is the same. Obama's best district here is only 46.2%.

4  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: House Redistricting Co-op on: July 31, 2014, 05:18:10 pm
Nevada:





NV-1: 49.4% O, 48.2% M. 54.8/45.2 R/D. Lean R
NV-2: 69.0% O, 28.9% M. 68.6/31.4 D/R. Safe D
NV-3: 60.4% O, 37.5% M. 57.7/42.3 D/R. Safe D
NV-4: 49.4% M, 48.4% O. 53.8/46.2 R/D. Lean R

Is this one drawn a bit in favor of republicans? I kind of feel like it is.

Not very much. When I drew a plan that split no counties except Clark and no cities within Clark I had the following Obama 08 numbers: 65.9, 50.0, 50.6, 57.6. It seems like the Reno CD and the Henderson/non-Clark CD will tend to be even to lean R districts.
5  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Gubernatorial/Statewide Elections / Re: Illinois Executive Mega-Thread on: July 31, 2014, 12:25:33 pm
Governor
Pat Quinn
Bruce Rauner
Toss-Up/Tilt R

Lt. Governor
Paul Vallas
Evelyn Sanguinetti
Toss-Up/Tilt R

Attorney General
Lisa Madigan
Paul Schimpf
Safe D

Sec. of State
Jesse White
Mike Webster
Safe D

Treasurer
Mike Frerichs
Tom Cross
Toss-Up/Tilt D

Comptroller
Sheila Simon
Judy Baar Topinka
Likely D

Why Likely D for Comptroller? Simon's name recognition is not as good and Topinka has some sympathizers among ILDems.

My bad I didn't realize Topinka was the incumbent.

Topinka also has most of the big union endorsements.

Cross also has much better name ID than Frerichs, and summer polls have shown Cross ahead.
6  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2014 Gubernatorial Election Polls / Re: IL-Harstad Strategic Research (D)/Illinois Education Association: Rauner+4 on: July 31, 2014, 12:21:18 pm
Sabato's full analysis for a number of races is on the main gubernatorial board. I thought it was worthwhile to note it here as well. Given that the range of polls from insider D here to insider R earlier this week are all on the R side in their result, his shift can be justified.

Quote
Illinois: Gov. Pat Quinn (D), barely elected to his first full term in 2010 and hampered by a poor state economy and budget problems, appears to be losing so far to a wealthy Republican, Bruce Rauner. Quinn’s narrow win in 2010 happened in part because his opponent was very conservative, too much so for Illinois even in the midst of a gigantic Republican wave that cycle. However, this time Quinn faces an “outsider” opponent in Rauner, who is promising to clean up the mess in Springfield and who can also self-fund his campaign to a large degree. While this race could well shift again this cycle, we’re now moving it from Toss-up to Leans Republican. We’ve heard a lot of pessimism from Democrats about Quinn’s odds, though they hold out hope that he can pull the rabbit out of a hat once again. He might, but he’s down right now — and facing a better candidate, Rauner, than he did last time. According to Politico’s Kyle Cheney, Quinn would be the first governor from the president’s home state (and of the president’s party) to lose reelection since 1892.
7  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Poll: Capitalism dying? on: July 31, 2014, 07:16:45 am
People being poor is obviously a flaw. You could argue that it's a flaw that would exist in any other system as well and perhaps even be worse or that it's a flaw that's in some way balanced out by benefits that necessitate it as a side-effect, but saying that it's not a flaw at all makes you sound like you care more about their markets as their own abstracted entities than about the actual people who have to live in and use them. Which is a horrible, disgusting way to think.

In fairness, there's a legitimate philosophical position that would make poor members of society a feature instead of a flaw. If one holds that an underclass serves the purpose of motivating people to achieve more and thereby either escape from or avoid entering that underclass, then having some poor people in a society becomes a necessity to the economic system.
8  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: Why does the media use the "wrong" colors? on: July 30, 2014, 07:18:50 pm
Up until the year 2000, there was no set color scheme and newspapers and TV networks generally used blue for the president's party and red for the opposition. The 2000 Election Debacle caused the red for Republicans/blue for Democrats map to be up on TV screens for weeks on end, giving rise to talk of "red states" and "blue states".

This is part of the story. Most networks had specific schemes to rotate to colors once color TV was available. One network (NBC?) switched the color of the incumbent party every cycle, so that a party that won as a challenger would have the same color for their reelection. Reagan was blue for 1980 and 1984 on NBC, but Bush was red. Bush became blue as the incumbent party switched in 1992 as Clinton was elected as the red party on their map. The color scheme was set for Dem blue in 2000.

Tim Russert is given much of the credit for referring to states as Red/Blue on the Today show leading up to the election. It might have been a blip in history, but the colored maps frozen night after night on the news during the FL vote-counting mess helped cement that. Of course the normal rotation would have kept Bush red in 2004, but the more permanent assignments had stuck by then.

9  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: Had George Bush dumped Dan Quayle back in '92 on: July 30, 2014, 06:36:19 pm
In 1994 I had the opportunity to meet one of the top campaign staffers for Quayle in '92. He told some fascinating behind-the-scenes accounts. For example in the spring of '92 the Bush team had no idea how disengaged the President seemed to the public, particularly after the famous footage from NH when he didn't recognize a bar code scanner at the general store. The Quayle team felt that if the campaign was to succeed they had to energize a new base of voters. Their internal analysis showed that a rising group of "values voters" were an ideal place to start. The Pres' team didn't show any interest. In order to force their hand the crafted the Murphy Brown statement for Quayle, knowing that it would be perceived in the media as a gaffe. This was supposed to be the entree for the Pres to begin a discussion with values voters, but rather than pick up the ball that was tossed his way or repudiate that direction, Bush left Quayle to twist in the wind for a number of days. The Quayle guys were beside themselves and saw little hope for the Pres after that.
10  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Plan to split California into 6 states advances on: July 30, 2014, 06:16:13 pm
Hell no!  I need my in-state tuition!
Yeah, hows that going to work.  Maybe there will be an extra-state agency, but most likely not.

Many states have reciprocal arrangements for university tuition. Sometimes there are unilateral discounts. There's no reason that a split CA wouldn't come to some arrangement.
11  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Weighted Voting For Congress on: July 30, 2014, 12:30:10 pm
Alternatives

I would let Jackson and Hillsdale switch districts.  While this does drop the population for Eastern Michigan and make the border more irregular, I think that there may be a Jackson-Battle Creek-Kalamazoo linkage.

Jackson is sometimes placed with SE MI and sometimes in a greater Lansing/Mid Michigan region, but I've never seen it thought of as part of an extended Battle Creek/Kzoo area. Hillsdale is less glued than Jackson, but seems more likely to stay with Jackson than not. Looking at Mid Michigan, it's clear that Gratiot and Isabella (with Central MI U) should shift to go with Lansing and the Tri-Cities.
The connection with  Battle Creek and Kalamazoo would be I-94 and similar sized cities.  But since Battle Creek is on the western edge of Calhoun there isn't much commuting.  It is much stronger into Ann Arbor.

What I meant by "letting Jackson and Hillsdale switch districts", is that it would not change the theme of the district, nor would it cause population problems.  They are on the periphery of the region.  I could see that people might prefer to be associated with the smaller cities of western Michigan.

There is not much of a commuting connection between Isabella and Midland, other than what you would expect to a somewhat close population center.  More people commute into Gratiot and Clare, than they do to Midland.  Gratiot commutes to the north.  Clinton doesn't have the jobs, and Lansing is to far.   I suspect that CMU would be considered the local university for the whole Huron-side of the northern lower peninsula.  Ferris State is in Big Rapids on the Lake Michigan side, and Northern Michigan University and Michigan Tech are in the UP.

I wouldn't characterize this as "should".  I wouldn't object to an initiated change.

I was moving beyond commuting patterns and looking at how groups like the business organizations, tourist bureaus and state agencies see those counties. I presume to some extent they are following local identification within regions.
The regional planning commission for Jackson, Hillsdale, (and Lenawee) is separate from those for southeast (Detroit metro), Lansing, and Kalamazoo-Battle Creek.  This indicates when they were setting up the councils that there was a feeling that Jackson either partially was tied to each of them.  In each case, they would also be peripheral to the other groups (ie Detroit metro plus Jackson; Lansing, also included Jackson; Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, and on down the road some, Jackson.)

In Michigan, they may have agglomerated areas.   The numbering and shapes suggests strongly that the western shoreline region split the from the western region.  Muskegon may not have wanted to be dominated by Grand Rapids.  The Flint region is odd in that it named based on the initial letter of the three counties, "GLS".  Perhaps the tri-cities did not want to be dominated by Flint.   The tip of thumb was too small for its region, and Saginaw Bay provides a unifying theme.

Note that as in Florida, the regions recognize the division of the northern lower peninsula between the two shorelines, with 3 Lake Michigan regions, and 2 Lake Huron regions.

I saw sources with smaller regions that had Jackson separate, but clearly it's too small to consider on its own. I looked at those entities that were using larger groups to see how the smallest regions might combine. At the same time, I want to balance that against the population requirements. I found fits of Jackson with either Lansing or Detroit, but not with Battle Creek. The Huron district is the least populated, so keeping Jackson with Lansing satisfies both observed groupings and better population balance. That same logic leads me to the Gratiot & Isabella shift, where both regional groupings and population equality are improved by the shift. I suppose that the individual border counties could vote themselves into another district as long as the population limits were not crossed.

My last two FL plans took that same approach. I went back to regions that were often too small for a district, then looked to assemble them into appropriate sized districts balancing the populations with larger regional groupings. In FL there is far less flexibility with county shifts on population. That in turn would make it harder for a region like SW FL to vote itself elsewhere, since that creates a domino effect, for example if all of SW goes to Tampa, Polk gets pushed out, but they might not want to vote for that change. Unlike MI, FL may have to be resigned to only statewide, up or down approval of a plan.
12  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Is the death penalty justice or revenge? on: July 30, 2014, 07:02:56 am
Suppose a convicted serial killer is sentenced to natural life in prison without parole. While in prison the killer manages to fabricate a knife and kills a prison guard. There is no additional incarceration that the justice system can add to the killer's sentence. If the death penalty is used in this case, I would consider it justice, not revenge.

To be honest, that's more an argument against sentences without parole than a justification for capital punishment.

By all means, keep some people locked up for the rest of their natural lives, but it should be subject to review after a certain amount of time in the vast majority of cases. It's ok if the result is that parole shouldn't be granted for whatever reason, but taking away all hope takes away any incentive to rehabilitate.

And then if the guy given no chance at parole because he killed a prison guard dills again inside? Muon's question is too legitimate to be ducked.

What about people who are wrongly convicted and sentenced to death?

That's one reason to restrict its application to someone who has been convicted of murders that occurred on two separate dates. The wrongful convictions for death sentences that I've looked at all involved single attacks, but sometimes included multiple victims. By restricting it to separate days those cases would be excluded.
13  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Weighted Voting For Congress on: July 29, 2014, 11:16:14 pm
Alternatives

I would let Jackson and Hillsdale switch districts.  While this does drop the population for Eastern Michigan and make the border more irregular, I think that there may be a Jackson-Battle Creek-Kalamazoo linkage.

Jackson is sometimes placed with SE MI and sometimes in a greater Lansing/Mid Michigan region, but I've never seen it thought of as part of an extended Battle Creek/Kzoo area. Hillsdale is less glued than Jackson, but seems more likely to stay with Jackson than not. Looking at Mid Michigan, it's clear that Gratiot and Isabella (with Central MI U) should shift to go with Lansing and the Tri-Cities.
The connection with  Battle Creek and Kalamazoo would be I-94 and similar sized cities.  But since Battle Creek is on the western edge of Calhoun there isn't much commuting.  It is much stronger into Ann Arbor.

What I meant by "letting Jackson and Hillsdale switch districts", is that it would not change the theme of the district, nor would it cause population problems.  They are on the periphery of the region.  I could see that people might prefer to be associated with the smaller cities of western Michigan.

There is not much of a commuting connection between Isabella and Midland, other than what you would expect to a somewhat close population center.  More people commute into Gratiot and Clare, than they do to Midland.  Gratiot commutes to the north.  Clinton doesn't have the jobs, and Lansing is to far.   I suspect that CMU would be considered the local university for the whole Huron-side of the northern lower peninsula.  Ferris State is in Big Rapids on the Lake Michigan side, and Northern Michigan University and Michigan Tech are in the UP.

I wouldn't characterize this as "should".  I wouldn't object to an initiated change.

I was moving beyond commuting patterns and looking at how groups like the business organizations, tourist bureaus and state agencies see those counties. I presume to some extent they are following local identification within regions.
14  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Weighted Voting For Congress on: July 29, 2014, 05:27:47 pm
Here's version 2 of my draft plan. In addition to the population I have included the PVI of each district in square brackets, with positive values for D PVIs and negative numbers for R PVIs.

MI (3)
   Mackinac (MI) 3400K [-4.2]
   Huron (MI) 2620K [+3.6]
   St Clair (MI) 3864K [+10.6]

I have it:

Michigan 3300K
Eastern Michigan 2720
Detroit 3864

You may have displaced the population from Lenawee.

Alternative Names

Michigan
The Great Lakes State
Great Lakes
Peninsulas
Yuper-Looper
Mackinac
Michilimackinac

Eastern Michigan
Thumb

Detroit

Alternatives

I would let Jackson and Hillsdale switch districts.  While this does drop the population for Eastern Michigan and make the border more irregular, I think that there may be a Jackson-Battle Creek-Kalamazoo linkage.

History

Michigan gained its second representative in 1860, and its 3rd in 1890.  Initially it barely held onto the 3rd, but with the development of auto industry easily maintained its 3rd, and gained a 4th in 1950.  It lost the 4th in 1990.

Michigan was the 7th largest state from 1920 to 1970, and has been 7th, 8th, or 9th, since 1880, passing Kentucky, Indiana, Missouri, and Massachusetts during the past 130 years, while falling behind California, Texas, and Florida.  But Michigan will likely fall to 10th in 2020 as Georgia and North Carolina surpass it.

Thanks for the catch. I'll update my PVIs as well.

Jackson is sometimes placed with SE MI and sometimes in a greater Lansing/Mid Michigan region, but I've never seen it thought of as part of an extended Battle Creek/Kzoo area. Hillsdale is less glued than Jackson, but seems more likely to stay with Jackson than not. Looking at Mid Michigan, it's clear that Gratiot and Isabella (with Central MI U) should shift to go with Lansing and the Tri-Cities.
15  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Top 25 animated shows on: July 29, 2014, 01:20:11 pm
Courage the Cowardly Dog should at least get a mention for it serving as a vehicle for horror to become an acceptable type of children's entertainment. 

From the link, this is supposed to be a list for adults.
16  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2014 Gubernatorial Election Polls / Re: IL-Reboot Illinois/WeAskAmerica: Gov. Quinn (D) down 14 on: July 29, 2014, 01:14:25 pm
Can someone other than WAA poll this race?

As I've said in the past, when someone wants to pay another pollster, then it will happen. Pollsters don't work for free.

Historically the big media outlets in IL have been cheap on polling before Labor Day, and even then they don't track frequently. Smaller media websites with a specific political focus like Reboot IL and Capitol Fax are more likely to engage in polling at this time of year.
17  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Weighted Voting For Congress on: July 29, 2014, 07:22:57 am
Quite frankly, any district south of Gainesville and north of Homestead that borders both coasts is a travesty that Floridians would not countenance.  SWFL belongs with Tampa.

The problem is that without the SW the rest of S FL is only 1/3 of the state's population. That would be great for 6 districts, but with only 5 a small S FL forces the northern three districts to be overpopulated. If SW FL goes with central FL, then something else has to go with the south, either Polk or Brevard. There are mathematical ways to avoid that, but they involve pushing all the northern districts to the upper limits of population.

In addition, deep SW FL may not go with the Miami metro, but I couldn't find any sources from FL that say it's part of Tampa Bay either. That line seems to go south at most to Sarasota. SW only counts there if you consider the whole Gulf Coast, but that ignores the more traditional north-central-south splits of FL.

That brings up one other southern combination. It is somewhat inspired by the FL 25th CD that links parts of M-D to inland Collier. Here it links M-D with all of SW, and has better population than the SW-Palm Beach link. This Everglades district also better preserves the Hispanic CoI with a majority of the population (50.3%) and near voting age majority (49.7% HVAP).



Appalachicola, 3326K, O'08 41.8%
Tampa Bay, 4390K, O'08 50.4%
Cape Canaveral, 3693K, O'08 51.0%
Okeechobee, 3722K, O'08 61.8%
Everglades, 3669K, O'08 52.7%
18  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Top 25 animated shows on: July 28, 2014, 10:37:23 pm
where's Ren & Stimpy?
#5 on the list
Quote
(As an aside, I'm a little disappointed with your analysis of Rocky.  What about Fractured Fairy Tales?  Or Peabody and Sherman?  And who could forget Boris and Natasha?  That show was a bed of morality, sociology, and physics wrapped in wisdom and spiced with magic, wit, and humor.  It was a veritable chimichanga for the senses, but with entertainment as the main condiment instead of of pico de gallo.)
Like I said, I was just a little kid the last time I saw the show...which was like a hundred years ago.

I agree with the rest of your assessment.

I don't know the right placing for many of the shows, but given the time, technology, and culture it's hard for me to see why Rocky and Bullwinkle isn't at least 3rd on that list. I find myself still using quotes from the show I heard as a preschooler. Yet 50 years later I still occasionally learn references to the show's satirical targets that I didn't appreciate at the time and have to grin at the discovery.
19  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Have you ever donated money to a politician, political campaign, or PAC? on: July 28, 2014, 09:40:03 pm
Even if they don't, I still mail in my contribution. The Postal Service can use the extra first-class mail volume, and I don't mind paying the extra $0.49 for the privilege of feeling like a cleverdick for a little while.

Unfortunately its unlikely that anyone in a position to appreciate your cleverness will see it. If the solicitation is from a state or national party, some salaried clerical worker will open the mail. There's even some high likelihood that your donation will be discarded since it will cost more in time to process than the value of your gift. The one exception would be if the organization was actively trying to boost donations from small donors, when 1 cent would work for them as well.
20  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Weighted Voting For Congress on: July 28, 2014, 06:55:38 pm
Digging around FL resources that identified regions, I find that eight seem to describe the state. Population-wise the whole state is 5.54 of the quota, so the ideal district would be 1.11 of a quota, and could help justify a district slightly over 1.33.

The SE region covers Indian River to Monroe, and has population 1.83 times the quota. If it constitutes two districts alone the other three districts would have to average 1.24 of the quota. That gets difficult with the 1.33 limit.

The Tampa Bay region either consists of the core MSA (Hernando, Hillsborough, Pasco, Pinellas) or an extended region that includes Citrus, Polk, Manatee and Sarasota. The core region is 0.82 of the quota and the full region is 1.25 of the quota.

The SW region has a core of Charlotte, Collier and Lee which makes up only 0.32 of the quota. Sometimes the region is expanded north to Manatee and Sarasota and inland to DeSoto, Glades, and Hendry.

The South Central region has the six interior counties south of Polk and makes up 0.07 of the quota.

The Central region has a core of the CSA of Orlando/Daytona Beach/The Villages plus Brevard county with a population of 0.99 of the quota. Marion county is frequently in this region and brings the full region to 1.09 of the quota.

The remaining three regions are in North FL. Northwest is the Panhandle east through Jefferson county. Northeast is the Jacksonville CSA. North Central is the remaining area in between. It makes up 0.98 of the quota. If Marion is shifted north is rises to 1.08 of the quota, and with Marion and Citrus it goes to 1.12 of the quota.

The simplest grouping of the regions is to take the three northern regions together as a district for 0.98 of the quota. The full Tampa and Central regions each form a district with 1.25 and 1.09 of the quota respectively. That leaves adding the core SW and S Central districts to the Southeast bringing it to 2.22 of the quota. That then can be split between the southern three counties of the SE (1.27) and the rest of the combined South FL (0.95) to put all within quota limits.

It provides one clearly north FL district, two clearly central FL districts, and two for south FL. No district exceeds the upper limit of 1.33. It does go across the peninsula, but only for the Fort Myers area, so it avoids linking Sarasota to Palm Beach.



Appalachicola, 3326K, O'08 41.8%
Tampa Bay, 4229K, O'08 50.7%
Cape Canaveral, 3693K, O'08 51.0%
Okeechobee, 3236K, O'08 51.6%
Everglades, 4317K, O'08 62.1%
21  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Poll: Capitalism dying? on: July 27, 2014, 10:59:15 pm

The article goes into depth on four rather extreme outcomes, but lacks discussion as to how the current market economies might evolve to those outcomes. Market economies in practice are tied to the political powers, and the pathway for one to evolve requires thought about how the political structure would react. The author partly recognizes this in his discussion that there were ideas that could have addressed the USSR's failure but for the technical and political obstacles. Even though technology evolves, the political structures may not.

To the OP, technology may alter the traditional role of labor, but one's time remains a fixed commodity, so I expect that some sort of market could remain for that aspect of "labor". Similarly technology might alleviate the scarcity of many things, but things like land will be inherently fixed despite technology. If market economies remain for the management of fixed or scarce resources, then at least some elements of capitalism will survive.

22  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Is the death penalty justice or revenge? on: July 27, 2014, 04:41:44 pm
If a person is convicted of a criminal misdemeanor, the penalty is often a fine. That penalty is not intended to be preventative, it's a form of punishment which matches the level of the fine to the severity of the crime. If the fine were preventative, the level would be set based on the wealth of the perpetrator, but it's not. Your statement implies that criminal fines for misdemeanors as generally imposed are evil.
When dealing with less serious crimes, besides preventative justice and retributive "justice", there is also reparative justice.

A fine would be preventative (and in some cases, reparative).

I disagree that fines as they exist are intended as punishment only. They are intended to prevent it from happening again, and sometimes to repair the damage. If any are intended as punishment, then they are immoral. It can be preventative and not based on the perpetrator's income. Though it would be a neat idea to begin to base some fines on a person's income.

Fines and other penalties are designed to show that inappropriate actions have consequences. For most people the knowledge of those consequences can be a deterrent. There is a population for whom even knowledge of the consequences fails as a deterrent. Whether such a person is a child who misbehaved or an adult who intentionally breaks the law, the consequence becomes a punishment.  There can even be an acceptance of that punishment when the person decides that the action was worth the risk of said punishment.
23  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: How do you pronounce the word "cretin"? on: July 27, 2014, 03:24:07 pm
I'm with ilikeverin, considering that most of my pronunciation stems from my Midwestern family and a dozen years growing up in MN. So I voted other, since the t isn't really pronounced except as a stop between syllables. However, if asked to think about saying it alone for someone, I'd be prone to put the t in.
24  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: What does the red mean? on: July 27, 2014, 03:16:28 pm
This bomb (it) uses under our control (is a harnessing of) nuclear energy (the basic power of the universe).
25  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Which electoral districts (CDs or equivelant) have you been to in 2014? on: July 27, 2014, 01:02:37 pm
A dinner in Hyde Park and a visit to a coal mine complete IL for me.


FL-8,18,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27
IL-1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18
IA-1,4
MA-2,3,4,5,7,8
MI-13
MN-1,2
WI-1,2,3,5,6

Total: 40 44

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