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1  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Politico: Republicans brewing Russian scandal to target greens on: July 23, 2017, 09:42:37 pm
Amazed at the hatred for the green movement in the US

I'm not sure people are saying environmentalists and other anti-fracking groups would knowingly take the money, just that Russia could indeed be funneling money to the groups secretly. Personally, I'm supportive of many of these anti-fracking efforts but at the same time I wouldn't put it beneath Russia to covertly direct funding to some groups if they thought it might help their cause.

If one thing has been drawn attention to lately, its Russia's ability to funnel money into various places without people realizing.

The same way they have a knack for compromising people without them realizing it until it is too late.
2  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Renewable Energy Rebate and Subsidy Act (At Final Vote) on: July 23, 2017, 09:37:34 pm
AYE
3  General Discussion / History / Re: More historical date on: July 23, 2017, 09:13:06 pm
That's a caricatural view of the French Revolution.

Look, as I said above: the idea that the people should rule found its first political expression in the French Revolution. I don't think you grasp how important that paradigm shift was for humanity. Suddenly, the lowest people had an interest in politics. Every single politician: Trump, Merkel, Putin, Corbyn, Abe, Modi, Xi all have to pay lip service to liberté égalité fraternité in their own way. Yes, Ernest might say "but the Enlightenment came up with the idea", but 1) this is an apples-to-oranges comparison of an a intellectual movement with a political event, 2) its implementation in actual politics is different by an order of magnitude, and 3) one can just as easily say the same thing about the American Revolution, the ideas of which were all developed in the Enlightenment too.

As to examples of its impact, the French Revolution was the catalyst for the emergence of party politics, including a popular party, in America itself, against the express wishes of the framers of the US constitution; and I could go into the French Revolution in Haiti and the impact that had on slaveholders in the American South, leading to civil war. In Britain it created the radical reform movement that roiled British politics for decades, threatening revolution several times (including an actual one in Ireland) before eventually winning in 1832. British politics, the "British system", would be unimaginable without the French revolution; there would be no Thomas Paine's Rights of Man for God's sake. Would Latin America have won its independence? Would we have German or Italian nationalism? Would we even have had the Romantic movement in the arts? Imagine how different western culture would be without Romanticism...

Yes, it's quite possible that all of the things above would have happened without the French Revolution, but form they would have taken would be completely different.

For a taste of the shock the revolution had across Europe and the Americas, Robert Burns says something of it:

Quote
While Europe's eye is fix'd on mighty things,
The fate of Empires and the fall of Kings;  
While quacks of State must each produce his plan,
And even children lisp the Rights of Man...

That was the impact of the French Revolution.

No one has said that the French Revolution was not important. The thread puts it up against the American Revolution and says "which was more important to history".

Yes, practical application of "the people should rule" is another matter from theorizing. The American Revolution managed to control its excesses and produced a result that was stable and slowly incorporated reforms over time. Having that example did far more to make feasible the cries for freedom across Europe.

The French Revolution did not do that. It yielded at its end the right for all men to vote, on whether or not to make Napoleon Emperor. The Soviet Union paid lip service to freedom and popular will, in an Orwellian means of distracting from the fact it had neither. People paying lip service to the notion is worthless if it is so done to facilitate a dictatorship or a Totalitarian state. It actually has to mean something. If the French Revolution was the only lesson to draw from, yes you would have many people people lip service to liberté égalité fraternité, but few that actually lived it.

And I am not usually in the business of arguing about one's own country with someone, but from my interpretation, "The British System" came to exist as a transition that began in 1689, not 1832 or 1789. It absorbed reform movements and evolved over time in reaction to demands for change. But the fundamental system was not changed, and there was no great singular social and class upheaval that sent all the British ruling classes to the block, except of course the English Civil War in the 1640's and 1650's.

Which also had the same pattern, an elected dictator followed by a restoration of the old ruling system with little or no serious change. What made the Glorious Revolution so glorious was a change so minimal as to undermine it even being called a revolution because it practically was just a procedural concession. Regular parliamentary elections and a fixed time limit on appropriations. Napoleon and Napoleon III had universal suffrage for lower house that was powerless. As the franchise was expanded in Britain, it had a real impact, because nothing could be done in Britain without the Commons going along with it.

The same is true for the United States. The House is elected by the people and all appropriations must arise from that chamber. As the franchise was expanded for both the House and President, it had a real noticeable effect.

Bottom line it wasn't just votes being cast for a meaningless election for a single candidate race pre-determined by the Communist Party, or a vote for a Napoleonic Legislature that had no power to do anything substantial or materially effect government policy. It also wasn't a vote to elect a despot with the full power to subjugate the people in name of "The Revolution". '

The pressure for liberalization, the pressure for democractization in both Britain and the UK would have been present, because these values did originate with the enlightenment. The Federalists would not have remained in power and if anything, the French Revolution prolonged their stay in office because of fear of chaos and anarchy. If anything, America would have been far less conservative as they pulled away from the chaos of the 1780's, were it not for the French Revolution. The French Revolution did not create the party system on its own, it merely served as one of many factors that put Hamilton and Jefferson at odds with one another.

This also can be observed in Britain. There were reform clubs in the 1780's and discussions which William Pitt the Younger participated in and supported. In the 1790's, he repressed them as seditious in the face of the enemy, Revolutionary France.

The French Revolution hindered Liberalism, and gave birth to Modern Conservatism, in both America and Britain in the 1790's.


4  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The College for All Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 05:35:10 pm
Your Honorable Speaker, I agree with some of the freed-up funding being shifted over to expand Pell Grants.

Well technically in that case the money is not being "transferred".


Right now this bill is completely unfunded.


Post amendment though, we have a system targeted at Community College. That means pell grants will no longer be used for community college. Technially the money is being freed up within the Pell Grant system to then expand its availability for say 4 year level and those seeking a 4 year degree after completing 2 years of college.

However, the bill itself is still unfunded and thus unless we can fix that, the above is all just academic.
5  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Britons, or anyone for that matter, should the British Monarchy be abolished? on: July 23, 2017, 05:20:07 pm
I obviously don't support instituting monarchies where they're not present,

So if the tiny Republic of Georgia, whose Monarchy was only abolished by their conquest at the hands of Russia in the 19th century, were to overwhelmingly vote to restore their Monarchy, that would be opposed?
6  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Should the French Monarchy be Restored? on: July 23, 2017, 05:08:49 pm
No, and anyone who proposes such a thing is un-American.

I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

The 1st French Republic was a repressive totalitarian regime that could send you to the guillotine for sneezing like a Royalist. The 2nd French Republic was a trojan horse for the resumption of the Bonapartist regime, which was a basically an elective dictatorship. The Third French Republic was both at once an unstable model to carry France through the World Wars and secondly was one of the most repressive colonial regimes.

Let us not act like 19th century French Republic's are so noble construction that a respecting American is obligated by virtue of being American to support.
7  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Flint Reinvestment Act (At Final Vote) on: July 23, 2017, 04:45:32 pm
AYE
8  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Politico: Republicans brewing Russian scandal to target greens on: July 23, 2017, 04:09:55 pm
I will not say anything as to the accuracy of the charges, but I will say this. Nothing has historically hampered, hindered and destroyed Russia's Geopolitical position more then collapses in the price of oil.


Consider that, and then take into consideration Russia's meddling in foreign elections to produce perceived favorable results for Russia, it is not too big a stretch that Russia would try and also meddle to produce policies that would keep the price of oil high as well as Russia's oil market share high as well.
9  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Putin says he might be President for life on: July 23, 2017, 04:04:53 pm
Might as well make himself Tsar, Emperor and Autocrat already.
10  General Discussion / History / Re: More historical date on: July 23, 2017, 03:57:19 pm
I can understand why Americans would say their revolution, but really, the more important one was the French. It's not even a contest.

Modern democratic politics itself is a legacy of the French Revolution.
To say that modern democratic politics is a legacy of the French Revolution is not just an overstatement, but it is flat out wrong. At best, one can say that it served as a catalyst that caused a number of trends in European politics to proceed explosively but those trends had been evident well before the Revolution and considering the counterrevolutionary trends that happened in reaction, in the long term, it's doubtful the French Revolution had any long term impact save one, the Code Napoléon, and that more because it became the primary example of codified civil law rather than it being the inspiration for it.

Please read a book about modern European history before making these posts.

What do you presume he is ignorant of?  True Federalist is one of the smartest people on this forum.

One other impact that the French Revolution did have was the influence on the ideological and philosophical works that underpinned both Marxism and Non-Marxist Socialism in the mid 19th century. In terms of class struggle and class revolution, yes there is no denying that the French Revolution had a greater impact, precisely because it was a radical revolution that completely upturned the previous social order.

That circumstance though is precisely why the American Revolution has had a more lasting and positive impact. The American and British system for that matter, are built on slow change and improvement over time, which history has shown the best and most positive breeding ground for liberty and freedom to flourish.

The massive upheavals of the French and Russian Revolutions led to repressive regimes being instituted either in the name of said Revolution (Napoleon and the USSR) or as a reaction to them (The Bourbon Restoration). The stability and persistence of The US and British systems, remained a lasting example for how "it could be". Were it only the chaos and repression, and cyclical anarchy of the French Revolution as a guide, the world would be dominated by authoritarians cycled out in the next Revolution for another.

Basically the kind of Revolution panned in the movie Fistful of Dynamite, after Sergio Leone replaced idealism with cynicism as his guiding principle. "The poor people make the change...then the people who read the books sit around the big polished table and talk and talk and talk, and eat and eat and eat, and what has happened to the poor people? They're dead, That's your Revolution....Then the same...thing happens all over again".
11  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Atlasian Aid Protection Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:38:09 pm
Quote from: Amendment H7:02 by NC Yankee
Atlasian Aid Protection Act

(1) This act legislates that recipients of Atlasian aid money shall not be ineligible for such assistance solely on the basis of the health or medical services that said group offers.

(2) This Act also rules that no restrictions shall be placed on the use of aid money that does not come from Atlasian aid, or other Atlasian governmental organizations.

(3) This Act keeps in place the Helms Amendment of 1973, which ensures that Atlasian Aid money shall not directly be used to provide abortion services.

(4.) This Act does recognize the importance of promoting family planning, reproductive health and services, and counseling to women around the world, in order to protect their fundamental human rights.

Sponsor Feedback: Awaiting Feedback
Status: Feedback Pending, Vote in 24 hours if feedback is hostile or not forthcoming.
12  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HB 1134 - Veterans’ Dental Health Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:35:49 pm
I move for a final vote.


Like has been said this is a rather simple addition and will help pave the way for this to become a reality, sooner.


Like I said AtlasCare will cover dental, but it is not going to be implemented immediately and thus this brings help to our veterans six months sooner than would otherwise be the case.
13  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HR 1133 - Joint Resolution Commemorating Southern Heritage (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:34:19 pm
I was not aware that emancipation was effected so quickly after the surrender, considering the 13th Amendment was not even ratified until months later. It is one of those things that gets glossed over in general overviews of the Civil War and Abolition. I mean heck many were not even aware of the background of the 13th Amendment until the Lincoln movie focused primarily on that.
14  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HB 1132 - Presidential Succession Act of 2017 (Amended, Final Vote) on: July 23, 2017, 03:32:35 pm
AYE FTR



Thought I had voted here on the 20th.
15  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The Currency of Atlasia Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:31:07 pm
I am going to have to move forward here.

I call for a final vote. Representatives have 24 hours to object.
16  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Renewable Energy Rebate and Subsidy Act (At Final Vote) on: July 23, 2017, 03:25:07 pm
A Final vote is now open on the Renewable Energy Rebate and Subsidy Act, Representatives please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.
17  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Baby Box Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:22:53 pm
There is no zest for amendments anymore. Tongue

I remember when had 109 amendments in one 2 month Senate session. Tongue
18  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Atlasian Aid Protection Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:19:35 pm
Quote from: Amendment Offerred
Atlasian Aid Protection Act

(1) This act legislates that recipients of Atlasian aid money shall not be ineligible for such assistance solely on the basis of the health or medical services that said group offers.

(2) This Act also rules that no restrictions shall be placed on the use of aid money that does not come from Atlasian aid, or other Atlasian governmental organizations.

(3) This Act keeps in place the Helms Amendment of 1973, which ensures that Atlasian Aid money shall not directly be used to provide abortion services.

(4.) This Act does recognize the importance of promoting family planning, reproductive health and services, and counseling to women around the world, in order to protect their fundamental human rights.
19  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The College for All Act (Debating) on: July 23, 2017, 03:17:37 pm
Your Honorable Speaker, this amendment pares down the College For All Act to just community colleges. The elimination of tuition for working and middle-class students is an excellent idea.

I will treat this as friendly, Representatives have 24 hours to object to the amendment.


I must note also this will require further amending, including reworking the bottom section, which i did not have time to do when I submitted the amendment. I also want to change the way that the bill has the federal government interact with the regions, and also with the expense related situation.

Finally, we have to consider this relative to the pell grants, since a good bit of Community College is already free a significant portion of this community. So we can either shift those freed up funds over, or we can find new funding, and thus focus the saved money's on expanding the Pell Grants as a way to assist with the 4 year level.

20  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Flint Reinvestment Act (At Final Vote) on: July 23, 2017, 03:09:58 pm
With no further objections, a final vote is now open on the Flint Reinvestment Act, Representatives have 72 hours to vote.
21  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: House Legislation Introduction Thread on: July 23, 2017, 03:04:37 pm
Quote
AN ACT
to uphold the rule of law, preserve
the federal Union, and allow for the
elimination of domestic terrorism

Section 1 (Title)
i. The long title of this Act shall be, the "Northern Separatist Terrorist Designation Act." It may be cited as the "Northern Separatist Act."

Section 2 (Preamble)
i. WHEREAS, the organization styling itself the "National Lincoln Liberty Coalition" has taken deliberate action to target and kill Atlasian citizens on our soil;

ii. WHEREAS, they have as their stated aim the illegal separation of the Lincoln Region from Atlasia;

iii. WHEREAS, they have perpetrated acts of mass violence against the citizens of the Lincoln Region in pursuance of their despicable agenda;

iv. WHEREAS, they have lately abducted the Secretary of Federal Elections, and threatened unspecified harm against her and the Atlasian people should this Republic not cede to their demands;

be it enacted by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia:

Section 3 (Designation)
i. The organization styling itself as the "National Lincoln Liberty Coalition (NLLC)" is hereby designated a terrorist organization.
ii. The Attorney General shall have power to designate any persons or groups of persons affiliated with the aforementioned NLLC as terrorists under the laws of the Republic of Atlasia.

Not quite sure of the background of this beyond the reports on the AFE board by the GM, but I guess I will sponsor this for the Attorney General. Tongue
22  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Office of SoIA fhtagn - Department of Internal Affairs on: July 23, 2017, 03:00:55 pm
Nice Office. Smiley


23  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Southern Senate Class II Federalist Primary on: July 23, 2017, 02:53:34 pm
Abstain.


Long my approach in contested primaries.
24  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Renewable Energy Rebate and Subsidy Act (Debating) on: July 20, 2017, 11:02:59 am
Are we ready for a final vote here?
25  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Baby Box Act (Debating) on: July 20, 2017, 11:02:21 am
So I take it no members of the House are good with mathematical functions? Tongue
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