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76  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: House Bill 1001 - Voting on: June 27, 2016, 05:22:37 pm
the working people of egypt, mr. conservative, elected the muslim brotherhood to power in their most recent democratic elections, in case you haven't forgotten.


So? What does it matter whether or not the group was elected to office? I would hardly consider a functioning democracy one that elects groups committed to extreme fundamentalism to the point of wanting to blow countries off the map and exterminate groups of people. The fact that such groups win elections in some places, is not a mark of legitimacy on said groups, but in fact is an exemplary reason why democracy depends on strong education and a substantially more secular world view (at least to the point of not wanting to "Vote" a disliked group out of existence)".

Whether or not the Muslim Brotherhood wins an election is irrelevant. Hamas has won elections in the Palestinian terrorities and that doesn't make them any less of a terrorist group. The key here is the outlook of the Muslim Brotherhood and the tactices they are employing to bring it about.



because the reaganite/kissingerite tradition of deposing democracies we don't like has yielded absolutely terrible results in the past, maybe…?

Those are different situations. An election that elects a terrorist group is not a democracy.

that's a questionable assertion. and i'm sure the same argument was made about, e.g., chile – that an election that elects communists is not a democracy.

Just because someone makes the same arguement for the wrong reasons, doesn't make it it incorrect for me to make it for the right reasons.
77  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible? on: June 27, 2016, 04:50:26 pm
Well, from a utilitarian point of view, if something, on average, hurts people, then restructing it can hardly be immoral.



Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.

I know, but pre 19th century states took their legitimacy from something that was not national or ethnic solidarity. The concept of a state taking its legitimacy from nationalism was a construct largely used for political purposes. All I was saying was that the Nation State isn't a "natural" phenomena.

The pre-19th century states did limit the access to its territory, not just as much but even more than the national states which replaced them. A national state is in fact often more open than the dynastic and regional states which came before them. Of course with the development of the non-discriminatory welfare state, the state had to protect its territory from outsiders again.

That's not really the point I was making.

But in any case, it is not entirely true that all pre 19th C states did restrict access to their territory, I mean for a start, the Mongol or Moorish empires were so conceptually different to a modern state that you almost couldn't compare them in any meaningful way.

And in much of medieval Europe, the institutions of state were often so weak as to be practically irrelevant. Look at the Holy Roman Empire and the way it completely fell apart in the thirty years war. There wan't much control of migration going on at that point in time.

And something like 30% to 40% of the population of Germany died as a result of the 30 years war.
78  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible? on: June 27, 2016, 04:45:24 pm
OK obviously reading Yankee's responce i didn't make myself clear. I'm not interested in talking about the political ramifications or whatever. I posted it here in this board (and not the Discussion or Economics board) because I want to find a moral perspective using ethical theory on borders. In short, i want to find a way that I can sleep easy at night believing in closed borders on one hand and condemning seemingly governmental intrusions on liberty like apartheid and segregation on the other.

But the political ramifications do matter because they lead to bad political decision making in turn a worse end result, like depending on your perspective Brexit. Lets say you are a remainer, and believe in the consequences Brexit has been stated to have. Therefore the morality of being able to keep out terrorists and easing the pain at least somewhat in post-industrial areas as a way of preventing the leave vote, presents itself with a moral benefit of avoiding those negative consequences.

I listened to Corbyn's speech the next morning and he made important points how many of these areas had been left behind, by gov't economic and immigration policy thus motivating their vote for out. I compare that to say Tony Blair, who said they basically used it as a protest vote (implied against Cameron), but the truth of the matter was they were protesting 40 years of policy of which Europe was a part. Corbyn is a terrible leader, but at least he has sense enough to understand these communities plight and what motivates them.
79  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible? on: June 27, 2016, 12:55:43 pm
Well, the nation-state isn't actually artificial. For America on the other hand...

Well in many respects it is, the modern concept of nationalism is pretty much a 19th century invention. Ethnic identities existed before that, of course, but there wasn't really much of a concept of basing the political state on ethnic groups, or self identifying "nations".

Before the 19th century, there was really no concept of being German, or Estonian, or Slovakian or many of the "Nation States" that we now take as being natural and inevitable.

Nationalism was an outgrowth of the French Revolution. But prior to that you had states, they just weren't nation states. Those states were far more restrictive of immigration and far more protectionist than the era of nation states that followed it. Because those states, practiced mercantlism and aimed to horde money, figuring that was how you enriched your country.
80  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: Are closed borders/immigration restrictions morally defensible? on: June 27, 2016, 12:53:06 pm
The extent that mass population flows wreak havoc on countries, yes it is very moral and desirable to regulate the flow of people coming in. Also to make it more practical to weed out the bad apples, those seeking to murder thousands of people, a low level of inflow is also desirable.

These extreme globalist positions and statements of the like espoused by the OP, are the very reason the UK just voted out and Trump is the Republican nominee. Most people are naturally pro-immigration, I consider myself pro-immigration. But when you have people running around saying "End all deportations" or "borders are morally corrupt", such extremism pushes people to the extremes and turns people into nativists.

No country or group of countries can take on the whole of the third world and it is ridiculous to say we have some moral obligation to innundate ourselves to the point that the instablity and chaos improveishes us all equally. No, the answer is to encourage stable politics, investment and growth and development in the third world to reduce poverty there, while preserving your own strength and wealth so you can in fact assist with investment and you know, buying their crap. And yes that requires trade and frankly as I said years ago, the elitism and out of touch nature of free traders was going to sign their own death warrants and the world would be worse off for it as true Protectionism came back in vogue. I was right.

But no, just the like the idiots running the GOP establishment who were too stupid and are still too stupid to steer away from the cliff, they keep thinking more and dumber ways to force things people don't want, pushing them further in the opposite direction. Not surprisingly, the globalists are reading from the same manual and with the same devastating result. This will not change until they look themselves in the mirror and say, "we brought this on ourselves", not ignorance, not stupid voters, not racism (though it clearly plays a part), but instead constantly telling a man who works his whole life that his life is ruined for the sake of some farcical and misguided notion of the global good and expecting him not to stick a knife in your gut, has brought the world to ruin.
81  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Presidential Election Poll - Presidential Race Too Close To Call on: June 27, 2016, 10:40:15 am
Another interesting thing I kept track of throughout was that Leinad's vote, despite including more Federalists at the end than Truman had Laborites, the most Federalists composed Leinad's vote was 64%. Throughout the election it ranged from 58%-64%. Truman spent the first half of the election with 80% of his vote coming from Labor, and though ELP and indies pushed him down into the 70's, he was still more dependent on his own Party and than Leinad was on the Federalists. A situation we endeavored to maintain even as most of the conservative indies had already voted and particularly during the stretch of votes that took Leinad from 41 to 51. That was probably the most decisive batch of voters during the whole election.
82  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: House Bill 1001 - Voting on: June 27, 2016, 10:06:56 am
AYE
83  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: House Bill 1001 - Voting on: June 27, 2016, 10:06:29 am
the working people of egypt, mr. conservative, elected the muslim brotherhood to power in their most recent democratic elections, in case you haven't forgotten.


So? What does it matter whether or not the group was elected to office? I would hardly consider a functioning democracy one that elects groups committed to extreme fundamentalism to the point of wanting to blow countries off the map and exterminate groups of people. The fact that such groups win elections in some places, is not a mark of legitimacy on said groups, but in fact is an exemplary reason why democracy depends on strong education and a substantially more secular world view (at least to the point of not wanting to "Vote" a disliked group out of existence)".

Whether or not the Muslim Brotherhood wins an election is irrelevant. Hamas has won elections in the Palestinian terrorities and that doesn't make them any less of a terrorist group. The key here is the outlook of the Muslim Brotherhood and the tactices they are employing to bring it about.



because the reaganite/kissingerite tradition of deposing democracies we don't like has yielded absolutely terrible results in the past, maybe…?

Those are different situations. An election that elects a terrorist group is not a democracy.
84  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Presidential Election Poll - Presidential Race Too Close To Call on: June 27, 2016, 10:03:40 am
We actually had 82.2% turnout. It makes no sense to count turnout out of a pie that includes two people who cannot vote by law (the two who joined too late).


So 37/45 = 82.2%

Our highest since 2014 in both percentage and raw turnout.


85  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Leinad/Lumine - Clear Leadership for the Future - VOTE! on: June 27, 2016, 12:53:16 am
Standard Operating Procedure When Labor Destroys Country or Just Loses Election Version 5.21 (Original Version released: June 2013).  

Attack, Attack, Attack Tongue

But my friend, all I am trying to do is get to the bottom of these conspiracies, realizing at the same time that I am providing priceless publicity to the Leinad/Lumine ticket.

I can link seven years of conspiracy both real and fake to take this all the way back to 2008, and a quote that will make one of your posts rather hilarious.

Well, in the final analysis, hilarity is, after all, the desired effect of this entire conspiracy exercise.

Smiley

Well it requires some digging so you'll need to be patient for the laughs. Tongue

Leinad was falsely accused of being a sock by the radicals, probably of JoMCar. JoMCar was recruited by PJ, who was accused of being a sock of Wolfentoad, who was in turn accused of being a sock of Napoleon (false, but we aren't going for facts here obviously Tongue). Napoleon actually was Hamilton (true) and Hamilton was recruited by the same guy who said this on December 15, 2008:

All power to the Regions!!!!

#illuminati confired, cue X-Files music.
86  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: June 2016 Pacific Senate Election VOTING BOOTH on: June 27, 2016, 12:48:15 am
You jumped the gun man, remember you used Pacific time. Tongue
87  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Presidential Election Poll - Presidential Race Too Close To Call on: June 27, 2016, 12:33:12 am
We litteraly used this poll's regional breakdown to set our regional targets.

Clyde Poll
Leinad's %     Leinad Targets      Final Results
South  61%     65%                      67%
West 55%       55%                      73%
North 35%      40%                      43%
88  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: RIP Federalist Party (2012-15) on: June 27, 2016, 12:07:27 am



Allive and Kicking and Still STanding.
89  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: June 2016 Federal Election on: June 26, 2016, 11:59:16 pm

PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT OF ATLASIA


[ 1 ] Leinad/Lumine
Federalist Party/Civic Renewal



[ 2 ] Harry Truman/Kalwejt
Labor Party



[  ] Write-in:______________________________
-__________________



[  ] None of the above
90  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: TRUMAN for PRESIDENT • KALWEJT for VICE PRESIDENT on: June 26, 2016, 11:46:02 pm
You will be President someday. It took Duke and Marokai exactly two years from their first attempts. Maybe, yours will be sooner. Wink
91  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: June 2016 Presidential Election Tracker on: June 26, 2016, 11:31:11 pm
Or better yet, what you did Marokai's Presidential legacy just as he was leaving office. Tongue
92  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: June 2016 Presidential Election Tracker on: June 26, 2016, 11:30:02 pm


Is that a movie about what Labor did in October 2014 and July 2015 during their terms? Tongue
93  General Discussion / History / Re: James Madison Quote on Voting on: June 26, 2016, 06:54:46 pm
I know muh small government/states' rights gets in a lot of people's way, but I'd argue the DRs were undisputedly to the left of the Federalists.  A quote like this isn't surprising at all.

That shouldn't even be in dispute. OF course their are variences but when you compare the near Monarchical and certainly Aristocratic view of gov't held by many Federalists, the DRs were certainly the more liberal party in that sense.
94  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Unban CCSF on: June 26, 2016, 06:40:13 pm
He has been that for months. I take it from this string of unsignings, that he must have really jumped the shark in that regard or gotten banned from AAD.

I have not had time lately with work to pay much attention to AAD since early May.
95  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Leinad/Lumine - Clear Leadership for the Future - VOTE! on: June 26, 2016, 06:14:58 pm
Standard Operating Procedure When Labor Destroys Country or Just Loses Election Version 5.21 (Original Version released: June 2013). 

Attack, Attack, Attack Tongue

But my friend, all I am trying to do is get to the bottom of these conspiracies, realizing at the same time that I am providing priceless publicity to the Leinad/Lumine ticket.

I can link seven years of conspiracy both real and fake to take this all the way back to 2008, and a quote that will make one of your posts rather hilarious.

Well, in the final analysis, hilarity is, after all, the desired effect of this entire conspiracy exercise.

Smiley

Well it requires some digging so you'll need to be patient for the laughs. Tongue
96  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Leinad/Lumine - Clear Leadership for the Future - VOTE! on: June 26, 2016, 05:57:43 pm
Standard Operating Procedure When Labor Destroys Country or Just Loses Election Version 5.21 (Original Version released: June 2013). 

Attack, Attack, Attack Tongue

But my friend, all I am trying to do is get to the bottom of these conspiracies, realizing at the same time that I am providing priceless publicity to the Leinad/Lumine ticket.

I can link seven years of conspiracy both real and fake to take this all the way back to 2008, and a quote that will make one of your posts rather hilarious.
97  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Leinad/Lumine - Clear Leadership for the Future - VOTE! on: June 26, 2016, 05:41:43 pm
Leinad, Lumine, IF those are your real names, explain why
Federalist and Civic Renewal
is an anagram of
Few are civil and acne is let dr?
I need answers! Why did you not finish the word dry? I need answers!

So you would ask y. Tongue
98  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: Leinad/Lumine - Clear Leadership for the Future - VOTE! on: June 26, 2016, 05:32:38 pm
Standard Operating Procedure When Labor Destroys Country or Just Loses Election Version 5.21 (Original Version released: June 2013). 

Attack, Attack, Attack Tongue
99  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: Challenge to election administrator nomination on: June 26, 2016, 04:15:15 pm
Even if the House had the power to conform someone running elections, I don't think the election administrator had a majority of votes for confirmation when he acted in that authority in opening the booth.

But he did get a majority and he would have gotten a majority in the Senate. What do you expect to happen, poirot, what is your end goal?

It is easy to find a technicality to bring a process to a screeching halt, but the problem is Presidential term is over. What wrong has been committed by Tmth, except allowing democracy to occur, and what remedy could be given besides leaving Atlasia leaderless in a time of crisis and transition?

The reason we have laws is so that the people may be able to vote and decide their destiny, therefore the law must not be contrived to stand in the way of the will of people and interests of preserving said democratic system.
100  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Elections / Re: June 2016 Presidential Election Tracker on: June 26, 2016, 03:57:47 pm
I blame the fact that Griff didn't win WWIII in office. Tongue

To some extent, Griffin was in many ways elected as a War time President because he was viewed, not as the guy you want a beer with, but the guy you would go to a bar fight with.

The problem was he was more like Churchill than FDR because the first two of those four Labor terms were basically held by the equivalent of Neville Chamberlain. And the Labor President before that was basically James Buchanan. Labor should count their blessings in a lot of ways, because while Federalists also came back from armeggedon last year, Labor fully earned its deluge last year, while Federalist situation was merely the result of self-inflicted wounds and the machinations of others. Adam Griffin's toughness, popularity and legendary electoral skills allowed him to win twice with a vastly conservative electorate, and thus keep Labor as a key player and rebuild its bench. And the game is much better off that such is the case. Because out of that mess, god knows who would have replaced them if they collapsed and thus possibly taken the game with them.

Truman will be back, just like Marokai and Duke came back after losing their first attempts.
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