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76  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HB 1141 - Atlasian Duels Act (Amended, Final Vote) on: August 11, 2017, 07:27:53 pm
So I find it interesting that a vote on project made by, for and of, by Adam Griffin has turned into a partisan lineup with Labor voting no. Tongue

With all due respect to Adam Griffin, I cannot support a system that deregisters citizens and risks the chance that they will never re-register. Voter registration is a sacred right which should not be played with.

Indeed those are good points.
77  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL The Protection From False Sexual... (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 05:35:56 pm
We need to have a set definition for false sexual lie.


When it comes to the standard, you kind of almost need a process that involves a criminal prosecution and then someone being acquitted. But then you run the risk of witnesses not wanting to testify in cases that a rapist is on trial. So it is difficult balancing act.
78  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The Reforming and Regionalizing Public Healthcare... (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:39:06 pm
Like I pointed out in the House thread, this needs a full score of fiscal, healthcare, and economic impacts before an honest, real debate can occur.

This is more far reaching then what you called for in the House bill.

Also keep in mind that it is difficult to score the full range of impacts because this is not a centralized healthcare structure. Since this attempts to decentralize regulation authority, it would be difficult to pin down the full range of impacts because each of the three regions can take any number of different approaches to implement this.

We can get the budgetary effects, but it is difficult to get the healthcare impact.

Once this passes and then knowing this is in place, a regional gov't could get a study of the healthcare impacts based on what legislation they are proposing.

X+Y=Z   X being this federal law, Y being the subsequent regional law and z being the final impact for that region.

Aside from that, you can assume a default variable, but it is going to change the minute the regions pick up the ball and run with it.

I don't think responsible legislating and regionalization/game enrichment are necessarily at cross purposes and both are important, but when the former gets in the way of the latter, I think the game should come first.


79  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SB 2016-047 - Universal Healthcare and Affordability Act (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:38:42 pm
Like I pointed out in the House thread, this needs a full score of fiscal, healthcare, and economic impacts before an honest, real debate can occur.

This is more far reaching then what you called for in the House bill.

Also keep in mind that it is difficult to score the full range of impacts because this is not a centralized healthcare structure. Since this attempts to decentralize regulation authority, it would be difficult to pin down the full range of impacts because each of the three regions can take any number of different approaches to implement this.

We can get the budgetary effects, but it is difficult to get the healthcare impact.

Once this passes and then knowing this is in place, a regional gov't could get a study of the healthcare impacts based on what legislation they are proposing.

X+Y=Z   X being this federal law, Y being the subsequent regional law and z being the final impact for that region.

Aside from that, you can assume a default variable, but it is going to change the minute the regions pick up the ball and run with it.

I don't think responsible legislating and regionalization/game enrichment are necessarily at cross purposes and both are important, but when the former gets in the way of the latter, I think the game should come first.

80  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SB 2016-047 - Universal Healthcare and Affordability Act (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:28:07 pm
This needs a full cost estimate and coverage projection. Why would we vote on a comprehensive, behemoth of a healthcare bill without a score?

Practical reality of the game. If such can be obtained then yes, but in its absence, the game has to move forward. This was what kept the old Senate moving despite the absence of a working GM for the vast bulk of the time. And then the GM quit doing scoring all together for a few years before the reset.

POTUS has the right idea. This bill needs a CBO score before we vote on it.

We don't have a CBO, any scoring would have to be done by the GM and would be dependent on whether or not AZ as a policy does scoring on legislation. Some GMs have not because it is a tedious process and takes away time and effort from story creation. If he does not, then any cost estimates would have be made by us.
81  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The Reforming and Regionalizing Public Healthcare... (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:27:32 pm
This needs a full cost estimate and coverage projection. Why would we vote on a comprehensive, behemoth of a healthcare bill without a score?

Practical reality of the game. If such can be obtained then yes, but in its absence, the game has to move forward. This was what kept the old Senate moving despite the absence of a working GM for the vast bulk of the time. And then the GM quit doing scoring all together for a few years before the reset.

POTUS has the right idea. This bill needs a CBO score before we vote on it.

We don't have a CBO, any scoring would have to be done by the GM and would be dependent on whether or not AZ as a policy does scoring on legislation. Some GMs have not because it is a tedious process and takes away time and effort from story creation. If he does not, then any cost estimates would have be made by us.
82  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The Reforming and Regionalizing Public Healthcare... (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:31:05 am
Seeing as debate has slacked off generally, I would like to also move towards a final vote this weekend, barring an amendment or issue being raised in the interim period.
83  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Charlie Munger - Healthcare costs hurting US corporations, we need Single payer on: August 11, 2017, 04:15:59 am
There's actually a strong conservative case to be made for single payer, and it should be telling that conservatives in the UK and Canada don't want to get rid of their systems.

They don't get rid of them because it is political suicide to do so.
84  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Trump thanks Putin for expeling 755 US Diplomats on: August 11, 2017, 04:14:16 am
Absolute confirmation he is a puppet. He really needs to be removed. He does not have this country's best interest at heart.

I wonder if this is what it felt like for the Russians when Rasputin was running the show.
85  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: The Reforming and Regionalizing Public Healthcare... (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:07:39 am
Oh, never mind then.

If you have any concerns I am eager to try and address them.
86  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Avoidance of Conflicts of Interest Act (ACIA) (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:06:44 am
Will this make procurement of anything vital difficult or impossible?
87  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL The Protection From False Sexual... (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:05:57 am
I agree there must be a more solid standard for making a determination of whether someone has lied.
88  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Preservation of our Future Act (Debating) on: August 11, 2017, 04:04:20 am
The amendment is adopted.
89  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HB 1141 - Atlasian Duels Act (Amended, Final Vote) on: August 11, 2017, 04:03:48 am
So I find it interesting that a vote on project made by, for and of, by Adam Griffin has turned into a partisan lineup with Labor voting no. Tongue
90  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HB 1141 - Atlasian Duels Act (Amended, Final Vote) on: August 11, 2017, 04:02:38 am
AYE
91  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Do democracies need universal suffrage? on: August 11, 2017, 04:01:33 am
If a country has a constitution, independent executive, legislative and judiciary branches, basic individual liberties, but has no universal suffrage, is this country democratic?

We consider that there is universal suffrage when all the adult population can vote. Or even if the prisoners cannot vote, there is still universal suffrage. But if women, ethnic groups, poor or other groups do not have the right to vote, there is no universal suffrage.

If we consider that democracies need universal suffrage, the USA became a democracy in 1965 and Switzerland became a democracy in 1971.

Technically speaking, none of these things require any form of democracy.

Theoretically the case, but where has such been maintained without the presence of democratic institutions?
92  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Voting Booth / Re: August 2017 - Southern Senate Election (Class II) on: August 11, 2017, 03:49:39 am


SOUTHERN SENATOR
CLASS I



[ 2 ] heatcharger of North Carolina
Independent - Atlas Liberal Democrats



[ 3 ] JustinTimeCuber of Missouri
Liberal Justice Party - Labor Party



[ 1 ] ZuWo of Kentucky
Independent - Federalist Party



[ ] Write-in: ______ of ______
______ - ______
93  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Should the French Monarchy be Restored? on: August 09, 2017, 10:22:50 pm
There are men made for governance, for being good political leaders, and there are men made for adventures, for being saviors.

I can almost guarantee you that, if he had defeated his enemies, Napoleon would have strengthened the legislature, if only to give himself something to do. In the meantime, do you care to respond to my prior hypothetical question?

What hypothetical question?
94  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HOUSE BILL: Avoidance of Conflicts of Interest Act (ACIA) (Debating) on: August 09, 2017, 10:06:50 pm
The sponsor has 24 hours to commence an advocacy here and the rest of the members have a subsequent 48 hours to post their initial comments, questions etc.
95  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / HOUSE BILL: Avoidance of Conflicts of Interest Act (ACIA) (At Final Vote) on: August 09, 2017, 10:06:13 pm
Quote
House Bill
To prohibit government contracts from going to companies who boycott Atlasian Allies and other purposes.

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,
Quote
Avoidance of Conflicts of Interest Act (ACIA)

Section I: Establishment
1. Any government entity cannot enter into contract with a company for goods or services for overseas work unless the contract contains a written verification that the company:
     a. Does not boycott any allies and countries on friendly terms with the Republic of Atlasia
     b. Will not boycott any allies and countries on friendly terms with the Republic of Atlasia
        throughout the duration of the contract.

Section 2: Definitions of Allies and Enforcing Entities
1. Allies and countries on friendly terms with the Republic of Atlasia shall include, but are not limited to the United Kingdom, Canada, Israel, South Korea, Mexico, Japan, Australia, Germany, Ukraine, Philippines, India, Spain, Norway, Thailand, Egypt, Turkey, Colombia, etc.
2. Countries may be removed from the list in the event that they have committed a direct act of war, or intent to cause unfriendly terms between the nations.
3. Countries may be added or removed as deemed necessary by the Department of State, though official declarations of war will still require approval from Congress.
4. The Department of State will be required to create the full lists, make any countries added or removed (as well as the reasoning) available to the public upon request, unless said information is deemed confidential.

Section III: Penalties
1. Violation of this act will result in immediate termination of said contract.
2. Companies found in violation may reapply for a contract once they have agreed to include a written verification that they do not, and will not, boycott our nation's allies; and after a period of 5 years on the first offense, and 15 years on the second offense. If the company violates the terms of this act for a third offense, the company becomes permanently ineligible for future government contracts.

Atlasian People's House of Representatives
Pending

Sponsor: Fhtagn
House Designation: HB 1144
96  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Should the French Monarchy be Restored? on: August 09, 2017, 09:59:28 pm
Do you really intend to suggest that a constitutional monarchy with a great deal of individual liberty is worse than authoritarian and even semi-authoritarian democracies?

The irony here is that I thought I made quite clear I regard the Napoleonic regimes as the latter far more than the former. That doesn't even get into the kind of foreign policy adventurism that eventually saw France defeated and wrecked as a country, twice.

I understand. I would have liked to see Napoleon establish a legislature, as well, but it just wasn't realistic considering all of Europe hated him because of how much liberty he allowed his people. Napoleon III is decidedly less defensible.

Personally, as a strong supporter of Madisonianism, it's hard for me to understand how little people appreciate Napoleon I. On every single issue of individual liberty, his regime was better than that of his enemies. Besides the ones in America at the time, he even was the first post-Roman leader to allow homosexuality to such an extent as he did.

Because today we do not approve of caudillos or elected dictators. At the time, dictator and even Emperor, was a less offensive term and King was far more offensive. In the modern day, when we think of a King/Queen, we think of George VI and Elizabeth II, dignified people devoted to their countries in times of war and crisis. While a dictator evokes images of Swastikas and red stars, and Emperor evokes images of Pearl Harbor or Maximilian in Mexico (Another product of Nappy III). We also see the world through Anglophile eyes, hence the support for Single Payer on the left, to the exclusion of other universal healthcare options. This is further ingrained from having fought two world wars allied with the British and the concept of Britain as an island standing down a continental hegemon (who also happened to invade Russia while still at war with Britain), makes it hard not to compare Napoleon to Hitler.

He comes across as a usurping strong man, the kind that rides in on a white horse to save the day when the country is plunged into chaos and turmoil, in hopes that he will provide stability at the expense of freedom and liberty, and typically ends up providing none of those things.

You say you "wish he had a legislature", yet laud his record on liberty and freedom. The problem is that liberty is worthless unless people control the legislative branch and that legislative branch has power, because the Emperor can take it away at a whim and there is no limit or check on his power. This is the crux of Madisonianism and it was fairly absent in the Napoleonic regimes. Bonapartism is great at expanding suffrage, for powerless legislatures (Napoleon III) or none at all (Plebiscites). Liberty only exists in state of stability and balanced institutions, Napoleon provided neither.
97  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Should the French Monarchy be Restored? on: August 09, 2017, 09:40:54 pm
No. Historically, there have been occasions when the advocates of monarchy have been on the "right side" in comparison to their republican antagonists; this does not change the fact that, as a matter or principle, hereditary rule - whether constitutional or absolute - is inimical to the idea that "all [people] are created equal" and entirely illegitimate as a rational foundation for government.

The French Revolution was a disaster, and France would no doubt have been better off under a constitutional monarchy than under the Committee of Public Safety; today, however, France has a stable republican constitution that manages both to uphold the ideals of democratic equality and avoid guillotining innocent people. Why on earth would we exchange that for a system founded on the premise that some individuals, by virtue of being born to fancy parents, have a God-given right to rule a nation?

Well I wouldn't, but that isn't the point. Had such a situation developed as a stable constitutional monarchy, like say a July Monarchy that survived, progressed and democratized, then today France might have a situation that resembles Britain today. But I think much of this conversation revolves around relative comparisons of a past state to another past state, as opposed to today. In other words, dis thread been hijacked. Tongue

My philosophy makes me a strong believer in the republican institutions in America. At the same time I don't think we should export or monopolize just how a democracy should be structured. Though not the case in France, many of these "Republics" are parliamentary democracies with a President instead of a King, some of which are elected by the legislative branch even. I can see some argument to having a non-partisan head of state, that serves to connect the country to tradition and at the same time encourages reason, unity and compromise.

If a country opts for that route and it works, I don't think it is in America's interest to create chaos where it does not exist in the name of some purist interpretation of Jeffersonian Democracy. I think that was a mistake that we made in the past and it ended up causing more repression, turmoil and death then any Constitutional Monarch offending your strict sensibilities. Tongue Ironically, one example where that did not happen was under President Truman, the US did not force Hirohito to abdicate.
98  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: HB 1141 - Atlasian Duels Act (Debating) *SPONSOR NEEDED* on: August 09, 2017, 09:12:14 pm
I think PiT removed the previous house vote when it was amended. We should leave those in the text, with a note below that it has been amended, then followed by the Senate vote, and subsequent house vote.

Considering this is a Senate amended house bill, shouldn't it go directly to vote?

Quote
HOUSE BILL
To reintroduce the practice of dueling to Atlasia.

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Quote
Atlasian Duels Act

1. Should there be a mutual agreement, any two Atlasians may engage in a duel.

2. Duels shall take place in a single match of any online game agreed upon by the participants, so long as the game can be fully recorded for independent verification.

3. A replay of the game must be saved and shared with others to confirm the duel happened and who won and who lost.

4. Whoever loses the duel shall be removed as a registered voter and prohibited from re-registering for a period of one week or two months, whichever the duelers mutually decide.  Duelists may also agree to different terms provided that the agreement is made in public before the time of the duel.  No citizen may be prohibited from re-registering for a period of longer than two months as the result of a duel.

Atlasian People's House of Representatives
Passed 7-0 in the Atlasian House Assembled,


Senate Amended Form:
Atlasian Senate
Passed 4-1-1 in the Atlasian Senate assembled
Be it resolved, X Senator PiT, PPT

99  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: Public Discussion on the Supreme Court Cases (Avoid Cluttering Case Threads) on: August 09, 2017, 09:07:36 pm
I will note that I fully expected the special election to be the following weekend and was surprised to find it underway when I came on early Friday morning
100  General Discussion / History / Re: Did Albert Speer know about the Holocaust on: August 09, 2017, 08:55:01 pm
Kalwejt, my friend, please quit making excuses for the German people, and for their complicity and culpability in the holocaust.

You basically keep saying millions of Germans were almost active participants in the Holocaust from before day one. Sorry, but this just doesn't compute.

Quote
It was the German people who elected Hitler. 

Hitler was not "elected", he was being let to power via back doors, as instigated by idiots like von Papen, who thought they can control and contain him. Yes, the Nazis had sizeable public support, but not enough to win all. And still, Hitler would never be able to seize total power if not for von Papen's coup in Prussia back in 1932.

Quote
It was the German people who knew at least as early as 1933, that Hitler wanted nothing less than the elimination and destruction of Jewry. 

Many people did not take seriously Hitler's ramblings in "Mein Kampf" way until it was too late. And while I can totally believe Hitler always wanted to exterminate the Jews, "forced immigration" was long an official policy. Whether it was considered a temporary step to hide true intent or not, it's absurd to assume millions of Germans back in, let's sat 1937, were completely aware of what would eventually come.

In the 1932 German Presidential elections, enough Germans voted for Hitler and the Nazi Party (NSDAP), for President, to give him enough influence and power in order that Hindenburg was  forced to appoint Hitler as Chancellor in January 1933. 

Two successive federal elections left the Nazis as the largest party in the Reichstag.  This was because of the votes cast by the German people.  Therefore, it was the votes of the German people made the Nazi Party the largest party in the Reichstag.

These votes cast by a significant part of the German people were, in point of fact, what led to Hitler becoming Chancellor, and dictator of Germany.

Millions upon millions of German people knew what Hitler stood for, including his vow to eliminate Jews, and yet they voted for Hitler anyway.

So yes, millions upon millions of Germans were complicit in Hitler's mad plans.

Largest, does not equal a majority. Hitler won a plurality of the votes both times. But was made Chancellor because of the other parties viewed each other as more of threat than Hitler.

And it required the votes of several of those parties who leaned to the right, to pass the Enabling Act, which allowed for the formation of the dictatorship.

That being said, I would certainly argue that Hitler had majority support at various points, this was never expressed in an election though as they no longer were conducted by that point.
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