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1  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential General Election Polls / Re: 2016 Official Polling Map Thread on: July 23, 2014, 10:44:28 pm
Now that the Senate and Gubernatorial races in Georgia are set, we ought to see some polls from Georgia.
2  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Gubernatorial/Statewide Elections / Re: Partisan advantages for state governors, 2012-2016, by margin on: July 23, 2014, 10:09:09 pm

New Marquette Law School Poll finds Walker, Burke tied in Wisconsin governor’s race
July 23, 2014

Quote
MILWAUKEE – A new Marquette Law School Poll finds that the Wisconsin governor’s race remains a dead heat, with Republican Gov. Scott Walker receiving the support of 46 percent of registered voters and Democratic challenger Mary Burke receiving 45 percent support. Eight percent say that they are undecided or that they do not know whom they would support. Fewer than 1 percent say they will vote for someone else.

........

Approval of Walker’s handing of his job as governor stands at 47 percent approval and 48 percent disapproval. In May, approval was 49 percent, with 46 percent disapproving. In March, 47 percent approved and 47 percent disapproved.

.......

John Doe investigation

In the wake of the release of court documents concerning an investigation by prosecutors into possible campaign finance law violations, known as a “John Doe” proceeding, 75 percent of voters say they have heard or read about the investigation while 24 percent say they have not. Of those who have heard, 54 percent say it is “just more politics” while 42 percent say it is “really something serious.” In October 2012, 76 percent had heard of a “John Doe” investigation at that time, with 46 percent saying it was “just more politics” and 45 percent saying it was “really something serious.”
 


1-3%       20% saturation
4-7%       40% saturation
8%-20%  60% saturation
over 20% 80% saturation

Behind, yellow the colors to green for Republicans  and orange for Democrats. Dark shades of orange are really brown.  Ties are yellow.

White is for a non-partisan Governor, independent Governor, no Governor, or any transition to a new one (death, resignation, disqualification, impeachment and removal, defeat, or not campaigning for re-election).

[/quote]
3  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Polls on Same-Sex Marriage State Laws on: July 23, 2014, 10:02:39 pm
Marquette University, Wisconsin

Quote
Opinion on same-sex marriage is little changed in the wake of a June federal trial court ruling striking down a Wisconsin constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. Fifty-six percent of voters say they would vote to repeal the ban if they could, while 37 percent would keep it. When asked in March, before the court ruling, 59 percent said they would repeal the amendment while 36 percent would keep it in place.

https://law.marquette.edu/poll/



For support and legality of same-sex marriage.

White -- same-sex marriage legal or has at the least been enacted. No further distinction.

Green -- same-sex marriage not legal, but more popular than unpopular or plurality support for legalization of SSM

65% or higher -- deep green (90% saturation)
60.0 - 64.9%  -- dark green  (70% saturation)
55.0 - 59.9%  -- medium green (50% saturation)
50.0 - 54.6% --  light green (30% saturation)
below 50% but positive -- aqua (20% saturation)

tie -- yellow

above 45.0% but negative -- hot pink (30% saturation)
40.0 - 44.9% -- medium red (50% saturation)
35.0 - 39.9%  -- ruby (60% saturation)
30.0 - 34.9%  -- maroon (70% saturation)
under 30% -- deep red  (90% saturation)
4  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: How Americans Feel About Religious Groups: The Jews Rated the Highest on: July 23, 2014, 04:13:45 pm
Judaism does not proselytize. It is no obvious threat to the religious beliefs of anyone else.
5  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: 89-year-old former Auschwitz guard arrested in Philadelphia on: July 23, 2014, 04:10:16 pm
Hideki Tojo was Prime Minister of Japan during most of its war with the US. He was convicted of sundry crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and conventional war crimes, for which he was sentenced to die by hanging and was so executed.

Japan was undeniably a major power during WWII.

George W. Bush is a war criminal, by the way. Unlike previous Presidents from Nixon to Clinton he has stayed in the US and not ventured to foreign countries since his term ended.
6  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential General Election Polls / Re: 2016 Official Polling Map Thread on: July 23, 2014, 01:20:39 pm
Virginia, Roanoake College

Hillary Clinton holds significant and very similar leads over Republicans Chris Christie (44%-34%), Rand Paul (47%-37%), and Paul Ryan (47%-38%).

http://roanoke.edu/News_and_Events/News_Archive/RC_Poll_July_2014_Election_poll.htm

There's a partial poll by Gravis Marketing for right-wing Human Events, showing Jeb Bush up 49-39 on Hillary Clinton. It would change nothing even if I accepted it.


Nothing on Huckabee or Jeb Bush, but we have plenty of polls involving him.

If Virginia is a quick call for the Democrat, then the election is settled.

Hillary Clinton vs. Jeb Bush




Hillary Clinton vs. Chris Christie


   

Hillary Clinton vs. Mike Huckabee



Hillary Clinton vs. Rand Paul




blue, Republican -- red, Democratic

30% -- lead with 40-49% but a margin of 3% or less
40% -- lead with 40-49% but a margin of 4% or more
60% -- lead with 50-54%
70% -- lead with 55-59%
90% -- lead with 60% or more




[/quote]
7  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential General Election Polls / Re: 2016 Official Polling Map Thread on: July 22, 2014, 07:42:27 pm
Survey USA, Florida

Quote
* Hillary Clinton 49%.
* Chris Christie 38%.

* Chris Christie 48%.
* Joe Biden 39%.

* Hillary Clinton 46%.
* Rand Paul 42%.

* Rand Paul 47%.
* Joe Biden 39%.

* Hillary Clinton 53%.
* Marco Rubio 39%.

* Marco Rubio 46%.
* Joe Biden 43%.

* Hillary Clinton 47%.
* Jeb Bush 41%.

* Jeb Bush 47%.
* Joe Biden 38%
.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=9879b1f3-f54d-4ae5-ba27-5a1b5207710a
 
Nothing on Huckabee, but we have plenty of polls involving him.

If Florida is a quick call for the Democrat, then the election is settled.

Hillary Clinton vs. Jeb Bush




Hillary Clinton vs. Chris Christie


   

Hillary Clinton vs. Mike Huckabee



Hillary Clinton vs. Rand Paul




blue, Republican -- red, Democratic

30% -- lead with 40-49% but a margin of 3% or less
40% -- lead with 40-49% but a margin of 4% or more
60% -- lead with 50-54%
70% -- lead with 55-59%
90% -- lead with 60% or more



8  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2014 Gubernatorial Election Polls / Re: IA-Gravis Marketing: Gov. Branstad (R) up 8 on: July 22, 2014, 04:38:35 pm
It's for right-wing Human Events, so it is basically an internal poll. It is likely that a once-commanding lead for Branstad has shrunk significantly.
9  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2014 Gubernatorial Election Polls / Re: FL: Survey USA: Crist's Lead Expanding on: July 22, 2014, 04:36:47 pm
At this point a 6% lead is hard to shake.
10  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Gubernatorial/Statewide Elections / Re: Partisan advantages for state governors, 2012-2016, by margin on: July 22, 2014, 04:34:19 pm
Quote
Despite stronger voter optimism about Colorado's economy than found in many states, the race for governor is tied, with 43 percent for Democratic incumbent John Hickenlooper and 44 percent for former U.S. Rep. Bob Beauprez, the Republican challenger, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.

Voters give Gov. Hickenlooper a split job approval rating, with 48 percent approving and 46 percent disapproving, compared to a 52 - 39 percent approval rating in an April 23 survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/colorado/release-detail?ReleaseID=2059

One week later, PPP on Colorado:

July 17-20, 2014


Do you approve or disapprove of Governor
John Hickenlooper’s job performance?
43%
Approve
..........................................................
46%
Disapprove
......................................................
11%
Not sure
..........................................................
Q3
Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion

The average is a tie.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2014/PPP_Release_CO_7221118.pdf

 


1-3%       20% saturation
4-7%       40% saturation
8%-20%  60% saturation
over 20% 80% saturation

Behind, yellow the colors to green for Republicans  and orange for Democrats. Dark shades of orange are really brown.  Ties are yellow.

White is for a non-partisan Governor, independent Governor, no Governor, or any transition to a new one (death, resignation, disqualification, impeachment and removal, defeat, or not campaigning for re-election).
11  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: The Official Obama 2.0 Approval Ratings Thread on: July 22, 2014, 04:25:16 pm
July 17-20, 2014
North Carolina Survey Results
Q1
Do you approve or disapprove of President
Barack Obama's job performance?
41%
Approve
..........................................................
53%
Disapprove
......................................................
5%
Not sure

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2014/PPP_Release_NC_722925.pdf

July 17-20, 2014
Survey of 653 Colorado voters

Colorado Survey Results
Q1
Do you approve or disapprove of President
Barack Obama’s job performance?
39%
Approve
..........................................................
53%
Disapprove
......................................................
8%
Not sure
..........................................................

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2014/PPP_Release_CO_7221118.pdf



60% or higher maroon (70% saturation)
55-59% medium red (50% saturation)

50-54% pink (30% saturation)
45-49% orange -- Obama ahead (30% saturation)
45-49% yellow -- exact tie (40% saturation)
45-49% aqua -- Obama behind (20% saturation)
44% blue (20% saturation)
40-43% blue (50% saturation)
30-40% deep blue (70% saturation)
under 30%(90% saturation)











12  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2014 Senatorial Election Polls / Re: GA-WSB-TV/Landmark (R): Nunn (D) with moderate leads over Kingston/Perdue on: July 21, 2014, 10:20:52 pm
Democrats shouldn't get too excited here. Remember, Nunn's chances of winning are only as good as Scott Brown's

1. Democrats other than Barack Obama are gaining much of the popularity that they lost in the George W. Bush and Obama presidencies. Obama? Who cares now with respect to elections? He's not running for anything.

Hillary Clinton is drawing up close to potential Republican nominees for President in some states that Barack Obama lost by Mondale-like an McGovern-like margins.

2. In the South, incumbent pols are largely Republicans, and they get the heat in the region due to the anti-incumbent tendency in polling.  The incumbent Democrats whose Senate seats are up for challenge in 2014 are moderates. They have danced around the minefield of unpopularity of President Obama. They are holding their own.

3. In a state (Kentucky) with some parallels to Georgia, the incumbent Republican -- the Senate Majority Leader! -- finds his seat at risk.   

Trust but verify. There will be more polls.
13  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2014 Senatorial Election Polls / Re: MT-PPP: Daines up 7 on: July 21, 2014, 10:09:45 pm
but Obama's approvals are even worse now than they were during the election. Add that to the fact that it will be a midterms climate (meaning less young people), and what we get is that the sample is reflective of a 2012 climate, not a 2014 climate.

If another credible pollster reflects the same results, I will back down on my criticism of this poll.

Approval ratings usually dip significantly for just about any incumbent Governor or Senator -- so much that an elected incumbent with so little as 44% approval at the start of the campaign season has roughly a 50/50 chance of winning the next election. As a rule, incumbents campaign to get re-elected, and not only as a habit.

Quote
What the actual evidence shows, rather, is the following:

1) It is extremely common for an incumbent come back to win re-election while having less than 50 percent of the vote in early polls.

2) In comparison to early polls, there is no demonstrable tendency for challengers to pick up a larger share of the undecided vote than incumbents.

3) Incumbents almost always get a larger share of the actual vote than they do in early polls (as do challengers). They do not “get what they get in the tracking”; they almost always get more.

4) However, the incumbent’s vote share in early polls may in fact be a better predictor of the final margin in the race than the opponent’s vote share. That is, it may be proper to focus more on the incumbent’s number than the opponent’s when evaluating such a poll — even though it is extremely improper to assume that the incumbent will not pick up any additional percentage of the vote.

This analysis focuses only on early polls: those conducted between January and June of an incumbent’s election year.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/myth-of-incumbent-50-rule/

Relating to Senate and Gubernatorial elections of 2006, 2008, and 2009:



There's nothing about 2010, the Tea Party election. I suspect that Democratic incumbents were generally in trouble.

Relevance to this election for the US Senate seat in Montana -- practically none. Walsh is appointed, so he has yet to prove his ability as a campaigner for a Senate seat. This race is still for Daines to lose. In view of US Senate races in Indiana and Missouri in 2012, such is possible if Daines takes extremist positions.

7% is a good, if not insurmountable lead for a challenger. It can be blown.     
14  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: The Official Obama 2.0 Approval Ratings Thread on: July 21, 2014, 09:47:49 pm
July 17-18, 2014
Survey of 574 Montana voters(PPP)

Montana Survey Results
Q1
Do you approve or disapprove of President
Barack Obama's job performance?
37%
Approve
..........................................................
57%
Disapprove
......................................................
6%
Not sure


...More significantly the US Senate race is tightening up. Such matters far more.




60% or higher maroon (70% saturation)
55-59% medium red (50% saturation)

50-54% pink (30% saturation)
45-49% orange -- Obama ahead (30% saturation)
45-49% yellow -- exact tie (40% saturation)
45-49% aqua -- Obama behind (20% saturation)
44% blue (20% saturation)
40-43% blue (50% saturation)
30-40% deep blue (70% saturation)
under 30%(90% saturation)










15  Questions and Answers / Electoral Reform / Re: Gaming the system -- model at 270towin.com on: July 21, 2014, 09:31:51 pm
Table created.

 
State   Bush  Gore Other

AL           7      2
AK           2      3
AZ           6      2
AR           5      1
CA         20     33        1
CO          6       2
CT           2       6
DE           0      3
DC          0       3
FL          14     11
GA          9       4
HI           0       4
ID           4       0
IL           8      14
IN           8        4
IA           2        5
KS           5        1
KY           6        2
LA           6        3
ME          0        4
MD          2        8
MA          2       10
MI           7      11
MN          2        8
MS          5        2
MO          8        3
MT           3         0
NE           5         0
NV           4         0
NH           4         0
NJ            5        10
NM           1         4
NY           10      22    1
NC            9        4
ND            3        0
OH          13        8
OK            7        1
OR            2        5
PA            9       14
RI             0         4
SC            6         2
SD            3         0
TN            7         4
TX           21       11
UT             5         0
VT             0         3
VA             9         4
WA            4         7
WV            4         1
WI             4         7
WY            3          0
               270     267   2      


It would have still all boiled down to the Florida count.
16  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Most characteristically Democratic state on: July 21, 2014, 06:42:50 pm
I voted for Vermont but in retrospect I pick Hawaii.

Hawaii votes as solidly Democratic as any state and has gone R only in R blowouts. It has been solid D longer than Vermont, which used to be solid R.

Minnesota has the longest D winning streak (every D nominee except McGovern in 1972) but it seems to be going toward the mean in D blowouts.  In 1972 it was the second-best state for McGovern. It could be that Minnesota is the D state that swings least.
17  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Why is the rural Midwest "easier" to live in than the rural/suburban South? on: July 21, 2014, 06:00:58 pm
Could it be differences in the cultures of more cosmopolitan Midwest and the more provincial South?
18  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Surnames and voting on: July 21, 2014, 05:55:27 pm
Cars that I missed:

Ferrari 3048 D 2686 R
Mercedes 1757 D 126 R
Benz  1827 D 2318R (Huge split between two names for the same car).
19  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Pew Research: US Murder Capitals since 1985 on: July 21, 2014, 02:22:28 pm
I wonder what the low cities are... other than perhaps Hempstead, New York (giant, posh suburb).

Really, urban areas. I would guess San Diego and New York.   
20  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: It's almost too easy for D's to win in 2016, makes me think R's will win on: July 21, 2014, 02:00:21 pm
Two points:

1) I wish Never would never post in my threads like he has repeatedly said he would not.

2) Didn't the GOP also bash all the polls showing Obama up months before the election?

I don't see why everyone thinks that Democrats are only in a good position because of Hillary.  Does anyone really think their electoral advantage is dependent upon Hillary specifically?

Many are disappointed because Barack Obama has failed to deliver even more change to their liking. In 2016 someone can pick up much of the vote of people who did not get all that they wanted because the Republicans made such impossible. The Republican nominee, unless running to the left of someone like Hillary Clinton on that (extremely unlikely) will not win voters who think that Obama hasn't achieved enough.

So far Hillary Clinton is the only one who seems able to win those voters. I have no idea who would outdo her at that. But this can be said: both the Corporate wing of the GOP and the Tea Party wing offend the sensibilities and economic interests of so much of America that they have a distinct disadvantage built in that they will have  to pick up nearly every persuadable vote to win.  

Quote
Well, she is clearly, clearly stronger than Biden.  And if we say that polls this far out matter, then if Hillary does not run, the GOP is in a good position as GOP candidates tend to lead non Hillary dems.  Also, the primary would be quite nasty without Hillary.

Biden has had plenty of chances to win the Democratic nomination, and he did not get it. He had immeasurable weaknesses as a potential nominee in his 50s and those weaknesses have surly not disappeared.

Quote
I do not see what evidence there would be for a Dem advantage if Hillary is not running.


About 240 electoral votes belong to States and DC that have not voted for a Republican nominee for President since at least 1988.  

Quote
Obama has a 41 percent approval rating.  Somehow, it seems like the hacks on there think that somehow this fact is irrelevant.  

There are alternative explanations. He disappoints some people who are to the left of the mainstream of the Democratic Party who will still vote for just about any Democrat for President. FoX News is hammering everything the President does. If it had a 'Style' or 'Fashion' segment the analysts would attack the President for his sartorial choices. In November 2016 that will no longer matter.
21  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Will the Obama legacy sabotage Romney's presidency? on: July 20, 2014, 08:38:52 pm
The assumption is that Obama messes things up so badly that Romney couldn't fix it.

We had our chance to vote for Mitt Romney in 2012 to keep things from getting even worse (as right-wingers would say), and we blew it.

Maybe Barack Obama hasn't been so bad after all. After all, he has undone most of the damage (other than lost opportunities for doing right at the time) that Dubya wreaked.   

If he was a screaming narcissist in 2012, then what is he now? He's past 60, and people past 60 rarely make huge changes in behavior not associated with degradation of overall health. 
22  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Air Force One Down on: July 20, 2014, 11:06:01 am
'What part of the nation is up at 4am?' lol.
The cool part.

1 am in California,  midnight in most of Alaska, 11 am in Hawaii. Some people might get up that early for hunting or fishing trips.

... I suggest that this thread be locked. Faked news items need little discussion.
23  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Will the Obama legacy sabotage Romney's presidency? on: July 19, 2014, 11:48:48 pm
With the increasingly desperate situation America finds itself in at home and abroad, it seems inevitable to me that Americans will elect a Republican in 2016, and for lack of a better alternative that Republican will be Romney. We know his pitch from 2012- basically his record as a "Mr Fixit", applied to Washington D.C.

My fear is that the fruits Obama's recklessness will only manifest themselves in full after Romney's election. I speak, primarily, of the American Dollar's  de-dollarization movement(yet another blow announce just yesterday vis-a-vis South Korea-China trade. The best case scenario is that America sees a severe decline in it's purchasing power, the worst is that a tidal wave of dollars repatriated from overseas leads to hyperinflation. As the (excised) article explains.

This is basically inevitable, and should rightly discredit Obama. My fear is that if it detonates under his successor instead that it'll be free market conservatism that cops the blame in the eyes of the populace, despite socialist policies having been responsible.

1. Although a two-term President rarely has a successor from his own Party, Democrats so far have a near-sure win of the Presidency in 2016 with Hillary Clinton (but so far, nobody else). Not only is she likely to win just about every state that Barack Obama won in 2012 with similar margins, she projects not to lose the states that Obama lost that year by such huge margins. I can see her winning Arizona and Georgia.

Is it too early to put the image of Hillary Clinton on a collection of images of the Presidents? Of course. That said, she has the Obama campaign apparatus practically intact and can expand the map.

2. Romney ran on an alleged record as a moderate, yet he broke clearly to the Right. He has been exposed for his business ethics. He has been shown a flaming narcissist. He got caught saying one thing in one place and its diametric opposite elsewhere.

It is possible to win the Presidency after losing one Presidential election, as did Richard Nixon. But with Nixon it was after a catastrophic failure of the R nominee in the next election and a very troubled D President.  The last two Presidential nominees to run for the Presidency in the general-election year following a failure were Adlai Stevenson and Tom Dewey.    

3. South Korea warming up to China? South Korea is one of the biggest trading partners of the People's Republic of China. I suspect that China would like a Finlandized Korea -- a capitalist and democratic country that creates no problems for China. Nuclear-free with no US bases? Neutral and prosperous?

That has nothing to do with President Obama, and everything to do with an unreliable client state, North Korea. North Korean leadership has murdered pro-Beijing figures. South Koreans who cozy up to the PRC have nothing to fear from their government. China has a big problem with refugees from North Korea, which is an economic drain and an unreliable ally.

One of the most likely wars is between the PRC and North Korea. Such is not the result of the choices of President Obama. Such was so when Dubya was President.

4. Barack Obama isn't much of a socialist. He has presided over the greatest privatization of publicly-owned assets that resulted from 'receivership socialism' that Dubya made necessary. Obamacare? All in all it is likely to make the US more competitive with countries that have 'socialized medicine'. America is more capitalist now than it was in 2009.

5. Repatriated cash? It will have to buy something -- maybe American industrial assets and real estate. The stock market would soar.

6. President Obama is not at all reckless. Sneaky and secretive at times? Sure. One of his harshest critics Karl Rove says that if Barack Obama has any virtue as a politician it is that he is cautious.

7. Many of the dollars abroad are from illicit activities -- like drug trafficking. Maybe we could wipe out the money held by drug traffickers.  One suggestion is to recall all foreign-held dollars, exchanging them for new dollars only after those who present them can show that those were obtained through legitimate means. "We sold you oil" is a legitimate means of getting dollars. Money filthy with cocaine would not be so acceptable for exchange. This would also lead to the elimination of much counterfeit US currency circulating abroad.        
24  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential General Election Polls / Re: IA-Marist/NBC: More or less a toss-up on: July 19, 2014, 08:01:32 pm
I think it tells you something if Hillary with her +10 favorability is leading Bush with his -11 one by only 4 points.

Hillary is a really flawed candidate.

Hillary is not really flawed. Tongue
She is just no Obama. Who was by far the greatest presidential candidate of any party since Bobby & John Kennedy.

Was Obama a better candidate than Reagan? I don't think so. Obama fared pretty poorly among working class whites. Compared to other Democrats, Obama overperformed in the big cities and underperformed in the small towns.

Barack Obama is the ultimate urban-suburban candidate, someone at his best wowing big crowds but ineffective otherwise. He wins because Suburbia has become increasingly urban while losing its rural characteristics.

He won because he picked off much of the vote that Republicans used to count on in Suburbia.  The suburbs in which he fared worst were the newest ones, those that still had some bucolic qualities (Dallas, Houston, Atlanta).
25  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Polls on Same-Sex Marriage State Laws on: July 19, 2014, 03:13:25 pm
Keep your version of 'God's law' for your own denomination and congregation, thank yoy; the Crusades ended centuries ago.

''My version''? There's really only one way to interpret this:

''Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.'' - Leviticus 18:22

This law may be from the Old Testament, but it still applies today because it is a moral law, as opposed to a ceremonial law (such as the prohibition on eating pork, for example).


Obsolete concern.

Male homosexuality was a threat to an adequate birthrate. It was assumed that male homosexuality would prove an attractive alternative to procreative sex wit a wife that makes children possible. Add to that, much  of the homosexuality in non-Jewish cultures was associated with temple prostitution, a genuine abomination to Jews because such was typically a sacrifice to some God other than The One.  

Ancient societies needed high birthrates simply to offset the severe losses from plagues and famines -- and of course a very high death rate among children. That is over.

The people who should know, the Jews, seem relatively liberal on homosexuality... so long as it does not involve minors, rape, or temple prostitution. Christians who wish to interpret the Old Testament for their own ethical values might as well ask the experts -- contemporary Jews who know what the traditions are and which ones are still valid.
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