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76  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 19, 2015, 06:38:15 am
M are currently losing voters to both SD and Centre, I would assume they would only turn right if the loss to SD and KD became bigger than the loss to Centre.

Do you think Batra has actual liberal principles regarding this issue? Or would she drift right if the loss of votes were big enough.

The Moderates loss to SD, is already bigger than their loss to us. Besides, SD saying that KD's immigration policy getting closer to them really isn't going to dissuade the Conservative Moderate faction from defecting to KD, if that is what they want to do.

Kinberg-Batra has always been seen as belonging to the liberal pro-immigration faction of the party. She is forced to move towards tougher immigration however or she'd face a rebellion from local politicians who are stretched thin trying to cover costs for asylum seekers on the municipal with-out raising taxes, and who are on principal much more conservative and nationalist. There is a important difference to Busch-Thor though, as she has always been on the conservative faction of her party, which is why KD is doing this shift faster and more noticeably than M.

Jan Björklund has previously advocated tighter immigration policies, could Fp go right? Or are they too internally divided?

They are incredibly internally divided. Björklund wants to go in the same direction as M and KD... but his leadership position is incredibly weak and he doesn't have the clout to sway his party without risking his own leadership position or civil war in the party. Some influential members would rather leave the party than step in that direction and would prefer the Greens migration policies.
77  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Replace God Save the Queen? on: October 19, 2015, 06:07:04 am
Rule Britannia should obviously be the all UK anthem. Jerusalem should be the English anthem.
78  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 19, 2015, 04:14:05 am
I mean, I really doubt the current KD supporters are bothered about their immigration policy being too strict so...
79  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 19, 2015, 04:12:43 am
SD claims KD is getting closer to their views, which Thor obviously denies. Seems a bit shortsighted of Åkesson to undermine KD like that. A stronger KD would be a strategic advantage for SD - pressuring M towards the right.

Is it undermining them though? By saying KD is getting closer to their views they do paint KD as the most attractive second choice for SD-voters and an acceptable alternative. SD obviously want a centre-right minority government dependent on them, and painting KD as an attractive alternative to their supporters would actually probably benefit them. 
80  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 18, 2015, 09:17:04 am
Of these, 21.5% have a foreign background, which means that Swedes with two Swedish-born parents makes up 7.7 million.

I think it's important to point out that the current 21,5% with foreign background also includes me, since my mother is Danish, and the rather large group of everyone else in Sweden with one Swedish-born parent, and a Nordic or otherwise western parent, and I hardly think we count as foreign even by the the most rigid Swedish Democratic viewpoint. Tongue

All these sorts of estimations always rely on ceteris paribus, which rarely come true. The current level of immigration will not continue for 10 or 15 years. The idea that the Swedish population could double in a mere decade is of course absurd.
81  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 15, 2015, 06:39:45 pm
Wonder if Swedish left wingers will also finance a counter campaign?

Good God, that idea hadn't even crossed my mind! :S Why do loony right-wingers and left-wingers get to spend my tax money?!

Since when is it your tax money??

Public party aid.

By that logic pretty much everything can be considered Swedish Austerity Cheese's tax money.

Actually, yes. It can. I pay taxes, thus it's my tax money. Despite what some Social Democrats in this country think, tax revenue doesn't grow on trees. The money doesn't belong to the state, the money belongs to the tax payers, which includes me and presumably you. The state is just allowed to distribute it on our behalf to benefit our society and advance our common interests.

Now I believe in the idea of my money being used to create a better society, but when lefty and populist politicians use it as their own personal play jar I do feel like going full on Libertarian.

82  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 15, 2015, 02:59:10 pm
Wonder if Swedish left wingers will also finance a counter campaign?

Good God, that idea hadn't even crossed my mind! :S Why do loony right-wingers and left-wingers get to spend my tax money?!
83  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 15, 2015, 09:45:42 am
SD voted for the Moderates budget proposal.

Will vote. The budget proposals are still in committee and the final debate and vote will not take place until November.

In other news, SD has today announced that they will finance an ad campaign to discourage asylum seekers to go to Sweden, similar to the Danish campaign earlier this year.
84  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: If you were to live in another country for 5 years... on: October 14, 2015, 08:56:03 am
1. Finland
2. Denmark
3. United Kingdom
4. New Zealand
5. Germany

Why Finland over Norway?

It's really the Swedish speaking minority that does it for me. I have a large number of Finland-Swedish friends. I have dated a guy from Österbotten. If I lived in Österbotten or Åland I wouldn't even have to adopt any Finnish to get around. So personal ties and connections.

It's not that I don't like Norway or think that I wouldn't enjoy living there, I just feel closer to Finland and Denmark.
85  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 14, 2015, 07:58:10 am
But honestly while we may like to see the party structure of DPP as a sign inborn authorianism in the party, I think it's reaching. Instead it exist for both historical and practical reasons. DPP was founded after a chaotic annual congress for the Progress Party worse than anything I remember in my lifetime. Pia Kjærsgaard who was leader of the Progress Party and her fraction of the party decided to leave the party, the other parliamental fraction left the party some years later, but didn't set up a new party. It tell you something how bad the Progress Party were, when the two warring MP fractions both leave the party. DPP leadership never wanted to see the same thing again, so they set up the party structure to avoid the old Progress Party members entering the party and creating the same chaos in DPP.

But there's also another group DPP want to avoid, when you're right wing anti-immigration party, you really want to avoid the Nazis and want to be able to throw them out again, if they enter anyway.

Interesting, I didn't know that about DPP's history.

I obviously understand why the leadership of both SD and DPP feel they need to control their organisations rigidly. I have no idea how DPP handles that power,  so I will assume they do so responsibly.

In SD however, though keeping nazis and crazys out is the official motivation, it does feel like they abuse their power over the party to punish people who don't kiss the leadership's behind, rather than as a tool to keep the crazies out. 
86  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 14, 2015, 07:51:50 am
It's not my impression that SD is as top-down as DPP... yet.

Yes, I'd say so as well. Not that the SD leadership doesn't want to have the same power over the party as the DPP does, but the current SD leadership didn't get to create the original rule book in difference to the DPP leadership. They're instead left trying to reform the old rules, but that still has to be done with the consent of  their party congress. Of course they've come very far at solidifying power when they can cut off their entire youth wing with-out asking their congress for permission.

I never understood the inherent merit of parties being internally democratic.

I personally wouldn't want to be part of a party that wasn't internally democratic. If I cannot effect party policy why bother being a member. Nor would I entrust my vote or give my support to people who cannot even take debate and discussion with people who have close opinions to their own. If an organisation can't foster good attitude towards democracy with-in themselves, how can I trust them to do so in society.

But as for parties I'm not a member or supporter of, I support their right to organize as they see fit. Just don't expect me to approve of your organisation. ^^
87  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: If you were to live in another country for 5 years... on: October 14, 2015, 06:52:20 am
1. Finland¨
2. Denmark
3. United Kingdom
4. New Zealand
5. Germany
88  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 14, 2015, 06:39:38 am
Yeah, breaking with over 100 years of cross-national Nordic association law and established precedence to disadvantage a single organisation doesn't seem like a well-thought out idea.

Though the authoritarian, Soviet-like party structures of DPP in Denmark or SD in Sweden are rather frightening and says a whole lot about those parties, policy and legislation shouldn't be created around a single organisation.

In all of the Nordic countries (as far as I'm aware off) parties count as regular non-profit organisations, and non-profit organisations are in the Nordic countries free to organize any way they please. You'd either have to make parties a whole different group of organisations, or impose the same governing structure on all non-profit organisation, which would be greatly problematic in relation to churches with distinct leadership organisation, orders, and so on.

Besides, do we even want these parties to allow crazy grass-rots take over their party. I'm not sure how that would actually be beneficial to anyone.
89  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: October 11, 2015, 12:40:32 pm
I would agree with most of the things Gustaf and Marbury has said about this.

I don't think the decision by KD is that strange though. The Conservative faction in the Christian Democrats that voted down DÖ at their congress is the same faction that wants to implement stricter immigration policies, and wouldn't mind the centre-right to move closer to SD. I believe their idea is that the next centre-right government would be more strict on migration than a centre-left alternative. SD did threaten that they would kill every government that does not limit immigration, but if KD wish to create a government that limits immigration, it's the tactically smart thing as SD would probably not kill such an government. It will also benefit KD and they might gain Moderate voters who really hated DÖ.

It doesn't really change anything until 2017 either way. This year the Alliance parties are presenting separate budget proposals, and the plan is to do so next year as well. Meaning there is no reason for Löfvén to call an early election until the fall of 2017 at earliest.

Could the Centre Party realign to the left like in Norway?

Seems unlikley since the Centre Party has become increasingly libertarian-ish in recent years and they seem to continue in that direction. If any Alliance party should switch sides (which I don't see happening within the near future), the Liberals would be the best bet.
   

Nah! It should be noted that the Centre Party in Norway didn't really switch sides because of immigration foremost but because they're much more centre-left economically. If M and KD moves further right on immigration my guess is that we in C would act the same way as Venstre in Norway. Not back up a centre-left government, but neither taking part in a centre-right one siding with the centre-left on most social issues, but keeping to the right on economics.

As for the Liberals. Who knows. They might be the least coherent  and predictable party on this planet. Though I share Marbury's analysis that if there is one party that switches sides, it will be them.
90  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 09, 2015, 12:33:44 pm
Using this logic we might also presume that all religious Christians vote for the Christian Democrats. But that is not the case. In fact, the Conservative Laestadians (the most fundamentalist Lutheran revival movement; doctrine includes, for example, banning birth control and television watching as sinful) overwhelmingly vote for the Centre Party.

Now you're obviously just willfully misinterpreting what I actually said. Where exactly is the Centre's rural policies different than PS? What difference is there where someone who cares deeply about rural issues would choose to to vote for PS over KESK based ob their rural policies. I'm not saying I find it weird that rural people vote for PS, I'm saying they're probably not doing it for their policies on rural affairs. That's obviously not the same as all people of the same faith voting for the same party, as a common faith doesn't mean people have the same political opinions.

The idea that PS is somehow a more well-rounded party than SD is absurd. SD also has other policies than their immigration policy, but that isn't the reason people vote for them, and neither is PS rural policy the reason people choose to vote for them.



 
91  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 09, 2015, 08:56:51 am
I also agree as far as the Progress Party goes, they are a different thing compared to SD. But what is PS except stricter immigration, anti-EU, and anti mandatory Swedish in Finnish schools? Besides the mandatory Swedish thing, those are the exact same pillars as SD stands on. I doubt that there is anyone who really votes for Soini except for those issues. And I'm aware that PS casts itself as the defenders of the welfare state and the working man and what not., but so does SD. That's (as you noted) hardly the reason their voters vote for them.

There are actually plenty of people who voted for PS because of welfare issues and rural issues. Take for example, the party's strongest municipality, Kihniö, where the party got 53 percent in 2011 and 48 percent in 2015. Almost all of that is support for a former Rural Party (Finns Party's predecessor) politician Lea Mäkipää who was elected Finns Party MP in 2011 and who hardly even speaks about immigration but rather about welfare issues and services in the rural ares. Furthermore, in the Kihniö council the local Finns Party group actually supported establishing a refugee accomodation centre in the municipality (even if they qualified it by saying that they wanted to choose what kind of refugees are coming).

If it were rural issues they might as well vote for the Centre Party, and if it were welfare there are two left-wing parties. The fact that individual politicians have shifted for one or another reason doesn't really prove that PS is different from SD. There was a prolific local Moderate politician who became an MP for SD because he felt SD had better Defense policy and didn't like the Moderates cuts to the military. A parliamentary candidate for the Christian Democrats switched because she felt SD was more anti-abortion. That doesn't mean that more than a handful people actually cast their votes for SD because the military, or that many people did so because of their view on abortion. Likewise the people who voted for PS because the Social Democrats or the Left Alliance are to Green must be neglectful at best.

There are people that vote for SD for all kinds of strange reasons, but 90% of those who do, have immigration and the EU as their reason. The same I'm certain is true for PS.
92  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 09, 2015, 05:41:54 am
snip

I could answer you, it's some good point you bring up, but honestly DavidB brought most of the points up. Through there's one thing I will say again SD is not Progress Party or the True Finns, they're quite different from SD, which have more in common with the Danish Progress Party than either.

I don't entirely disagree with David either. Obviously I don't say that SD would disappear forever. Most parties have an ability to regain support after a bad period in government and a spectacular election loss. Though it would limit the problem for some time. Tongue

I also agree as far as the Progress Party goes, they are a different thing compared to SD. But what is PS except stricter immigration, anti-EU, and anti mandatory Swedish in Finnish schools? Besides the mandatory Swedish thing, those are the exact same pillars as SD stands on. I doubt that there is anyone who really votes for Soini except for those issues. And I'm aware that PS casts itself as the defenders of the welfare state and the working man and what not., but so does SD. That's (as you noted) hardly the reason their voters vote for them.
93  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 08, 2015, 09:09:36 am
It wouldn't work, at least not yet. The True Finns or the Progress Party are a more diverse party than SD at least in policies. If you vote for SD you do it for one reason and one reason only, while you can vote for TF or PP for many other reason than immigration. As such SD only need to deliver on one point to say they have kept their promises. Of course they will likely lose a few votes, but you won't see a SD collapse. Also where would SD voters go? They want a harder line against immigration and there's no one else in Sweden delivering on that point.

SD voters aren't some zombie-like creatures. They can't eat restrictions on immigration. They can't work at restrictions of immigration. Even if it's true that people only vote for them for one reason, they still has to be successful in other areas as well. Their poor working-class voters aren't going to just accept the cuts they propose to welfare in their budgets even if they get rid of a few immigrants. Nor are previously Moderate voters going to accept bad handling of the economy.

People can vote for SD solely on a single issue because they can imagine that SD will fulfill everything they wish for, but when that bubble breaks it's much harder to vote only on the issue of immigration. Which is exactly why responsibility is kryptonite  to these sorts of parties. They are huge coaltions that unite lots of people that only have a single thing in common, immigration. When it comes time to deliver on more issues, it's just not possible for them to please all their voters, which causes them to tremble.

As to the idea that "they can't go anywhere else", it should be noted that that is equally true in Norway. All the non-governmental parties there are pro-immigration. Doesn't keep Frp from declining does it? 
94  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Why are Canada and the US two nations? on: October 08, 2015, 08:44:42 am
You wouldn't see one state/province going to war
against one another, would you?

Actually you would. There are plenty of historic and recent conflicts between different regions of the same state. I can think of quite a major one in the US alone.
 
So, what do you think the reasons are that there is no unification movement?

Maybe since there isn't a problem with wars between the US and Canada, people don't really see the necessity with unification of the two nations to foster peace and understanding between the two of you. Roll Eyes

Also because the Canadians doesn't need the US to run a well functioning country and don't feel the need to share power over their own lives and their own laws with a bunch of American hillbillies who wish to impose their cultural values and ideas on them. You know the same reason secession movements are much more popular in the world in general.
95  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Scottish Parliament election - 2016 on: October 08, 2015, 07:39:09 am
First opinion poll since Jeremy Corbyn became Labour leader:

TNS-BMRB
Constituency ballot:
SNP - 56% (-2)
Lab - 21% (-2)
Con - 12% (n/c)
Lib - 6% (n/c)

Regional list ballot:
SNP - 52% (+1)
Lab - 23% (-1)
Con - 11% (n/c)
Lib - 6% (n/c)
Grn - 5% (-1)

As we can clearly see, Corbyn will as predicted reconquer Scotland to the Labour fold... 
96  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Great Nordic Thread on: October 08, 2015, 07:35:53 am
Here you see what happens when xenophopic right-wing populist party which labels itself as "working class party without socialism" attacks the unions in the cabinet at the same time with refugee crisis.

Being put in an actual role of responsibility tends to be kryptonite to most xenophobic populist parties. Look at the state of Frp at the moment, or what happened to FPÖ after their participation in the Schüssel-government.

It's actually so that I wish we could hand over the reigns of government to the Sweden Democrats for a year and watch them crash and burn and destroy themselves and we could finally move on and have actual political discussions again in this country.
97  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Canadian federal election - October 19, 2015 (Official Campaign Thread) on: September 30, 2015, 09:15:04 am
Also Quebec responds well to racism, evidently.

Well, the only thing worse than people that speak English instead of French, is people who speak neither I guess...
98  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Canadian federal election - October 19, 2015 (Official Campaign Thread) on: September 30, 2015, 08:40:19 am
So I've been out, what's the reason NDP has dropped in the polls?
99  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Who would you vote for in the Vienna state election ? on: September 30, 2015, 03:35:07 am
NEOS, the sane centre-right choice. Tongue
100  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Austrian Elections & Politics (Today: Upper Austria state election) on: September 28, 2015, 01:06:32 am
97% Nebelberg
69% Mondsee

It's really impressive turn-out for a regional election, that doesn't take place at the same time as a general election. 
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