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1  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you most prefer the politics of Los Angeles, NYC, or Seattle? on: August 02, 2015, 09:59:59 am
Wait, are you actually saying your views are so ideosyncratic that there's no left-wing splinter group that matches your views? I mean, you have Maoists out there! (I don't know if one can still find any Hoxhaites.) Surely there must be something?

As for a group with roots in the working class, well... I wish you luck. I know quite a few socialists and such. Not a single one of them came from anything less than an upper-middle class background.

No, there are groups that share my views. The International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist) and/or the International Bolshevik Tendency come closest.

I thought you had joined ISO. Did that not pan out?

No. I almost joined Socialist Alternative, though.

Oh, gotcha.

Just did some googling on the Sparts; I'm not sure what about them attracts you, but whatever floats your boat. I found it interesting that them and DSA have a shared history through Shachtman.
2  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Updated list of who is in and out of first GOP debate (FOX Aug. 6) on: August 02, 2015, 08:25:27 am
More on the Marist decision not to release their poll ahead of the debate:

TOP 10 REASONS WHY POLLS SHOULD NOT BE USED TO DETERMINE ELIGIBILITY FOR DEBATES (OR WHERE’S DAVID LETTERMAN WHEN YOU NEED HIM?)

Quote
10.  Many candidates will fall within the error margin.  Rankings become statistically meaningless.

9.1 Using decimal points makes statistically meaningless rankings even more meaningless.

7.9 – 8.1   Poll strew doesn’t necessarily taste very good.  Some polls probe undecided voters to include “leaners,” others don’t.   Some polls will be based on “likely” voters, others on registered voters. Poll results also vary when it comes to live or automated modes of data collection, proportion of cell phones vs. landlines, and weighting and analyzing data.

7.  More problems.  Some national polls take out “undecided” voters and recalculate based upon 100%.  This wreaks havoc on averages.

5.  Ok.  I know I skipped number 6, but, then again, there’s no guarantee all polls will ask all candidates either.

5.1 (Couldn’t figure out where to place this item because it is not actually higher or lower than 5, statistically speaking).  Some polls use push-button phones to record preferences.  It’s tough to include 18 names when only numbers 1 thru 9 are usable.

4.  “HELLLLOO” house effects.

3.  Given that early caucus and primary states punch a candidate’s ticket to continue, why use a national average to determine debate participation?

2.  Name recognition unduly influences results of early primary horserace polls.  Lesser known candidates will now frontload their efforts to try to make the cutoff.  Public polls altering campaign strategies?  BAD!

1.  And, finally, do you really want public polls this involved in a picking presidential nominee?

...

OK, but how else to pick the 10 candidates for the debate stage ?

Easy, have two debates with 8 and 9 candidates, the participants determined by sortition.
3  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Fox News debate rules on speaking time on: August 02, 2015, 08:06:10 am
One minute per response? That's insane.
4  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you most prefer the politics of Los Angeles, NYC, or Seattle? on: August 01, 2015, 10:32:04 pm
Wait, are you actually saying your views are so ideosyncratic that there's no left-wing splinter group that matches your views? I mean, you have Maoists out there! (I don't know if one can still find any Hoxhaites.) Surely there must be something?

As for a group with roots in the working class, well... I wish you luck. I know quite a few socialists and such. Not a single one of them came from anything less than an upper-middle class background.

No, there are groups that share my views. The International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist) and/or the International Bolshevik Tendency come closest.

I thought you had joined ISO. Did that not pan out?
5  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: How would you have voted in the preceding election? on: August 01, 2015, 10:26:52 pm
Upton Sinclair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_general_election,_2014
6  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Presidential Election Trends / If Clinton is a two-term president, who is on the Democratic bench in 2024? on: August 01, 2015, 09:03:56 am
How many of 2024 candidates do we already know the names of, given this scenario?
7  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Presidential Election Trends / Re: which is more likely to get elected president first game on: August 01, 2015, 09:00:57 am
Bearded man; I'll wager that in the 2020s, a non-significant proportion of candidates will be sporting beards.

Someone fluent in Mandarin Chinese or Arabic (they don't necessarily have to be descended from China or the Middle East).
8  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Which 3 GOP candidates are the most electable? on: July 30, 2015, 10:42:41 pm
I sat there and pondered for a moment before realizing that the GOP doesn't have three electable candidates. Bush and Kasich are the only ones who could win a national election, barring some disaster.
9  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: What are the odds nobody challenges Walker for the nomination, too? on: July 30, 2015, 09:05:37 pm
ROFL at this thread. Walker has 16 challengers, 14 of which entered the race before him.



But why necro?
10  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Bernie sanders on immigration on: July 30, 2015, 04:23:31 pm
Bernie Sanders has always been a white supremacist so this isn't particularly surprising.
Glad that we have a nationalist running for President, although I would prefer if he were not also a socialist.
Luckily he isn't so you're good.

Quality sh**tpost.
11  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Presidential Election Trends / Re: which is more likely to get elected president first game on: July 28, 2015, 11:31:39 am
Hip-Hop fan.

Someone from Minnesota or Alabama?
 
(two states of relative equal size who have never elected a president)
12  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Election What-ifs? / Re: USA with a 3 Party system on: July 26, 2015, 07:32:39 am
The largest third party in the U.S. is the Libertarian Party. So, I don't think we'd have a social-democrats, but libertarians.

The strongest Libertarian states would be Colorado, New Hampshire, Idaho, South Dakota and Alaska. They'd also win a lot of House seats in rural districts.

Social Democrats are just more pragmatic than conservative libertarians. If we had a vote system conducive to a multi-party system, we would definitely see an independent left part emerge.

OP, it's impossible to express such a system with Dave's maps, since to institute such a system, one would have to eliminate the electoral college. A three party system with the EV system would produce a nonsensical map due to vote splitting.
13  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Party for Socialism and Liberation nominates La Riva and Puryear on: July 26, 2015, 07:28:35 am
I read an article a while back that I can't seem to find atm that said that many socialists thought Bernie was too conservative for them and he panders to the Democrats too much.
Probably the same crowd that thinks Palestine is more important than Social Security and Medicare

Is that really any less irrational than Republicans who think Israel is more important than tax reform or protecting the Second Amendment?

As for the comments about socialist/Leftist parties in the US, part of the reason socialists never gained a sustainable following in the US was precisely because the American socialists were so much more radical than those in Europe. A lot of the European socialists who opposed building coalitions with "bourgeois" reform movements emigrated to the US. Combine that with the fact that American industrialists were often even more hostile to socialist activism than conservative European aristocrats were (hiring private security guards to gun down striking workers, for example) and you ended up with an American socialist movement that was very violent, anarchist and confrontational in nature.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that historiography. Remember, the US Communist Party (and all its fellow travelers) built a coalition with FDR's Democrats in the 30s. By the 40s, socialists had melted in the Democratic Party. It took the Red Scare and decades of subsequent red-baiting for old socialists to keep their identities quiet, and for young radicals to decide it wasn't worth calling their politics socialist. This is why the SDS, an organization of socialist, communists, and fellow travelers, stayed judiciously away from using the s-word.

A coalition of who? Are you a Harringtonite? Or do you mean the PSL, ISO, SAlt, the Green Party and whoever else combining their forces to get ~1 million?

I really don't understand this mindset. What do his impurities matter? His candidacy as an open socialist is forcing the media to address socialism seriously, and exposing swathes of people to the ideology. What more do you want?

Nah, I'm a Trot. And yes, I think to realistically achieve anything you'd need some kind of unity like that.

It's not about purity. I'm on-board with Bernie's reforms when it comes to education and climate change, but not his weak positions on police aggression, immigration, and Israel. Regardless, the big crux for me is that he's running for the Dems and promising to endorse Clinton. We've been through this with Kucinich. The Democratic Party is and always was a capitalist party, controlled by a corporate elite. The media covering his campaign is nice and all, but in the long run, I cannot see it amounting to much besides bringing more radicalized Americans back into the Democratic fold, which is the entire point of the campaign imo.


I hope you don't believe that Bernie is intentionally "sheep-dogging" the left; that would be a ridiculous level of conspiracy theorism. As to whether that is ultimate effect, intended or not, I have to disagree. As I noted above, American radicals have by and large been afraid to identify as socialists for half a century. This campaign, to me, marks the beginning of the end of that fear. Without the threat of the Soviet Union, red-baiting is far less effective. Bernie's campaign, whether he wants to or not, is reawakening a socialist consciousness on the left, while allowing the liberals to feel like it's "ok" to work with us (a huge departure from the past).

Sure, Stein might lose a few votes to Clinton in the general when all is said and done, but who cares? Build your coalition before demanding Sanders potentially throw the election. If you can put together some kind of Red-Red-Green coalition for 2020, I bet you'll do far better than you would have in 2012. Why? Because the Sanders campaign will have clued in a huge number of people that yes, they are indeed socialists. I expect in the next few years the ISO's (and SAlt's and DSA's) membership will expand significantly. I hope we're ready when the next recession comes about to play a leading role. I don't buy that the leading role necessary for us to play is to build a socialist electoral coalition to run in the next presidential election. As a method for consciousness raising, it seems likely to produce another Nader situation and severely disillusion potential recruits. But if the anti-Sanders crowd actually do it, actually organize a socialist coalition, I will have far more respect for them than I do now, while they're criticizing from the back seat.
14  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Can you name a scenario where the GOP primary fight will lead to a brokered con? on: July 26, 2015, 07:14:35 am
Bush and Kasich are both destroyed by scandal or gaffe, leaving the party with no potential consensus candidate. Paul, Cruz, Carson, Trump, etc all win states, leaving no clear winner by the convention.

I wonder who would be imposed as the "consensus" candidate in such a scenario.
15  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Party for Socialism and Liberation nominates La Riva and Puryear on: July 25, 2015, 09:50:40 pm
How many votes will they get this time? 3,000? LOL

As with all third party candidacies, the PSL is not covered by mainstream media and is certainly not financed by major corporations meaning less/no political ads, town halls, etc. So yeah, you get less votes.

That's not a sufficient explanation. The socialist Party before WWII got over 100,000 votes like clockwork. And they certainly weren't financed by major corporations or given non red-baiting coverage by the press. The sectarian left's problems are in many ways of their own making. And Maoists are particularly to blame.

I certainly don't disagree with you or what the other posters said regarding sectarianism. There's no organized Left in the US, and as you said, what is remaining is divided enough as it is. But I don't think it's fair to compare today's political atmosphere with one so distant, especially pre-50s Red Scare and pre-AFL-CIO. Quite a lot has happened, both internally and externally, which leads us to where we are now. Moving forward, I don't see any any successes without a coalition.

A coalition of who? Are you a Harringtonite? Or do you mean the PSL, ISO, SAlt, the Green Party and whoever else combining their forces to get ~1 million?

And as for this..
Here's a bright idea, 'socialists' endorse Bernie...

I wouldn't be caught dead endorsing him.
My thoughts -> http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/26/bernie-sanders-is-no-eugene-debs

I really don't understand this mindset. What do his impurities matter? His candidacy as an open socialist is forcing the media to address socialism seriously, and exposing swathes of people to the ideology. What more do you want?
16  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Party for Socialism and Liberation nominates La Riva and Puryear on: July 24, 2015, 10:16:53 pm
How many votes will they get this time? 3,000? LOL

As with all third party candidacies, the PSL is not covered by mainstream media and is certainly not financed by major corporations meaning less/no political ads, town halls, etc. So yeah, you get less votes.

That's not a sufficient explanation. The socialist Party before WWII got over 100,000 votes like clockwork. And they certainly weren't financed by major corporations or given non red-baiting coverage by the press. The sectarian left's problems are in many ways of their own making. And Maoists are particularly to blame.
17  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Inspectors general ask Justice Department to investigate Clinton emails on: July 24, 2015, 08:18:08 pm
EDIT: Also, the New York Times is trash. Everyone piece of information is attributed to unnamed "State Department Officials." I could have written this exact same article with no sources. Throw it in the fire.

For the record, I didn't know the article was bull, I was just commenting on the style. But seriously, they do this all the time. It's ridiculous.
18  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Party for Socialism and Liberation nominates La Riva and Puryear on: July 24, 2015, 08:16:31 pm
lol Maoists
19  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: If Carson wins IA and Trump wins NH, how many candidates drop out before SC? on: July 24, 2015, 08:14:15 pm
I don't care what's going on now.  Carson will not win Iowa, period.  Trump is more likely to win the nomination than Carson is likely to win Iowa.

He's not Cain 2.0. He's a reasonably well-spoken "outsider" candidate who's gained a loyal following among a certain set of conservatives. He shouldn't be so easily dismissed (though I do still consider him a lightweight).
20  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / If Carson wins IA and Trump wins NH, how many candidates drop out before SC? on: July 24, 2015, 11:03:49 am
As the title says, if two perceived light-weights won the first two primaries, perhaps due to heavy vote splitting, how many candidates would actually drop out? Could we still have 10 candidates on the debate stage in mid-February?
21  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Inspectors general ask Justice Department to investigate Clinton emails on: July 24, 2015, 10:47:09 am
I doubt Obama will throw her under the bus here.

EDIT: Also, the New York Times is trash. Everyone piece of information is attributed to unnamed "State Department Officials." I could have written this exact same article with no sources. Throw it in the fire.
22  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: National Review calls Jewish candidate Bernie Sanders a National Socialist on: July 21, 2015, 04:56:30 pm
Obvious troll is obvious.

Are you referring to the author of the article?

As well as whoever reposts this.

I always love how folks can post tripe from left-wing websites like Talking Points Memo or Mother Jones without anyone making a peep about that person being a troll, but once someone posts anything from right-wing websites like National Review, they are automatically "trolls".

Kevin Williamson has a point - Sanders is a self-admitted socialist and some of his policies are cut out of the same xenophobic nationalist protectionism as Donald Trump.  What does that make him, exactly?

Not sure how supporting American manufacturing is xenophobic.
23  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Presidential Election Trends / Re: which is more likely to get elected president first game on: July 21, 2015, 04:54:54 pm
Gay man.

Jew or Mormon?
24  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: National Review calls Jewish candidate Bernie Sanders a National Socialist on: July 21, 2015, 04:36:20 pm
The "National Review" isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
25  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Sanders with biggest crowd so far in not-so-librul Phoenix on: July 20, 2015, 02:30:02 pm
Please campaign in Arizona if you make it to the GE, Sanders! Maybe you can get 46% while PA goes for Bush!

sh**t post
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