Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 31, 2015, 03:50:25 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Atlas Hardware Upgrade complete October 13, 2013.

  Show Posts
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 159
1  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: Today at 03:00:14 am
Quote
Ivan Tovic is a morning person. He’s singing, laughing, playing with children; he’s a burst of optimism in the relentless boredom of this park-slash-refugee camp near Belgrade’s central bus station.

But there’s one issue: Ivan has had at least six cans of Staropramen beer. It’s 9:30 a.m.

Another problem: Islam, the dominant religion among the Syrian refugees congregated here, forbids alcohol and takes a dim view of those who drink it.

Yet Mr. Tovic is tolerated here, perhaps even welcomed. He bends down to greet an elderly Afghan couple with what seems like sincere deference, even kissing the sun-weathered hand of the wife. He lends his bicycle to a lanky Syrian boy to take for a spin around the park.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/reporters-notebook/migrants/serbia-belgrade?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
2  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: The Big Bad Swedish Politics & News Thread on: August 30, 2015, 08:07:45 pm
Randomly jumping in here with two questions:

1.) Why is Stockholm a stronghold of the center-right?


2.) When I was visiting Vadstena, Odeshog, and Urnatur in May, I met two local green politicians. How strong is the Green Party in Sweden? Is it common for them to be in rural areas and small towns?

Also, we had a talk with the man who owns the treehouse hotel at Urnatur (he's one of the politicians we met) and told us he resented many Greens from the city because they believe that people should all live in cities, while he advocates that people live in the country. How strong is this divide in the Swedish Green Party?


Also, why the f*** do you people not export Kina Wafers??? They are now my favorite chocolate and they're not available in the U.S.

That is just wrong on so many levels.

1. Apart from recently with the SD, Swedish politics has a strong consensus on social issues and is divided mostly alongside economic lines. City people are rich. Imagine if New York was voting solely on economics and rural Kentucky was doing the same.

2. The Green party mostly has strength in cities and university areas but they exist elsewhere too. A former party leader made them biggest party in rural northern Kalix. Tongue The Green party generally does badly in rural areas for the reason you cited so I wouldn't call it a strong divide within the party.

The Kina wafers are under fire for racism, I believe, so that may not help. Wink

I get what you're saying but New York isn't the best example since it's actually about 60% poor minorities and even among the Whites, a good chunk are either poor White ethnics living way out in the middle of nowhere in far west Brooklyn or hipsters making $10 an hour but getting by only because they don't have kids.

Yeah I guess one of the richest cities in the world with the same GDP per capita as Stockholm is a horribly analogy for Stockholm as a rich city.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2012/1/18-global-metro-monitor/0118_global_metro_monitor.pdf

Your original point was that if New York voted based solely on economic self interest, they would vote conservative like Stockholm does. So yes, it was a bad analogy. New York already votes based on economic self interest. Most New Yorkers vote Democrat because most New Yorkers are poor.

It's also worth noting that there's quite a few "bobo" types in New York who fall in the upper part of the income distribution who would almost certainly vote for the left in Sweden.
3  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 30, 2015, 08:06:44 pm
I think America is partially to blame for this situation. I applaud European leaders for attempting to take on this necessary burden but America has the capacity to take a few million refugees. We've refused to do anything.

ftr, i mourn the moral failure of america as well and recognize that this is a problem of a poor distribution of refugees that could be shouldered by the nation of immigrants. oh well.
4  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 30, 2015, 07:55:45 pm
Nationalism is a romantic myth, an invented tradition and it's a very destructive one at that. The common tongues, national traditions and customs that are tied to states were forged by public policy for the purpose of state-making.

1) That is in itself a bit of a myth, or rather an exaggeration. There are strong elements of proto-nationalism dating back to high medieval times in several countries.

2) It does not in itself make them any less real or easier to absolve.

1. "in several countries"; in otherwords this is non-generalizable whereas my point is somewhat generalizable (all national identities were forged by the state).

2. sure but the attachment to the ethnic nation-state is despicable when it's understood that it's at the root of ethnic cleansing, mass population displacement and refugee crises. i can understand that it's difficult to deal with the detritus of history and weep at the same time.
5  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 30, 2015, 07:52:06 pm
It's very clear that Europe has the resources to accommodate refugees, it's a question of will.

Agreed, but there are very good reasons why this will is lacking and it is unlikely to suddenly materialize.

You can not ignore the basic dilemma: Europeans do not want (further) mass immigration and since refugees can not be repatriated they are de facto immigrants. If there were a real possibility of repatriation later on there would be little resistance to taking refugees, but we know from experience this is not so. Even countries with IDPs are rarely able to "repatriate" them (see Colombia for an example).

With the population growth Africa has and the conflict  potential there is on the continent (incl. failed states) no other part of the world will be willing to take the refugee flows we will see in the coming decades. That is why we need to separate payment and hosting and accept that hosting will be on the continent itself (which also has a lot less population density and more potential for growth than Europe).

Solving the problem in Africa for Western (and ideally also East Asian) money would also help more people - including those that can not afford to pay traffickers (women, children, elderly and disabled over represented among them) in the long run.

It might be cynical to view the refugee crisis in such calculated terms, but when the numbers gets this big and the countries of origin are as "problematic", it is unavoidable.

I'm making a moral claim, not a prudential claim. I think it's unethical/petulant that Europeans are opposed to "mass immigration". I think it's bad behavior. The causes that explain this sentiment are manifold and I might be inclined to agree that European political constraints necessitate alternatives to housing refugees in Europe itself.

That said, I'm going to condemn the average European for opposing mass immigration. It's unethical that Europeans would rather dump MENA refugees into relatively stable yet still poverty-stricken countries. It's unethical that Europeans, who love to boast about their WESTERN VALUES, would rather dump MENA refugees on authoritarian regimes. These are moral claims.

I'm happy to discuss policy choices but I'm not going to empathize with petulant/racist children, I'm going to shake my head and hope that mass murder, whether indirect or direct, is avoided.
6  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 30, 2015, 07:40:04 pm
Xenophobia isn't inherent to "human nature", as Politicus disturbingly seems to believe. Societies can be educated to accept, and even actively promote, multiculturalism, if thier political and cultural leaders make the effort to endorse it, instead of pandering to irrational fears.

They should first explain what multiculturalism is though. Different cultures living side by side or the incorporation of non-native cultures into the dominant one? I.e. forcing people from different cultural backgrounds to accep the basic tenets of our western culture: freedom of speech and religion, gender equality... If it's the latter, I can most certainly sign up to that. The former - not exactly.

I think it's also perfectly acceptable for Danes to feel that their homeland should be the "Land of Danes" rather than the "Land of people who happen to live in Denmark." We tend to bemoan the disappearance of cultures and languages but when it comes to European cultures, efforts to preserve it are somehow frowned upon. Go figure.

How is this any different than saying "Europe for the Europeans" or "Diversity = White Genocide"?

While I suspect you're hopeless cause (based on your post below the one I quotes) I'm going to answer anyway. Saying that a national state should be the home of the nation/people which it's based on, are like saying that children in American school should be taught English, they're free to have classes in other languages, but English should be taught. While saying " "Europe for the Europeans" or "Diversity = White Genocide" " are like saying it should be illegal to have classes in other languages at all.

I know this distinction are likely lost on you, but hope shines eternal.

lol classic salty ingemann

I fully understand this logic. I don't see why I should approve of it. After all, I understand European history. Isn't this logic the reason why millions were displaced from their homes after World War 2? Isn't this logic why millions died during World War 2?

Nationalism is a romantic myth, an invented tradition and it's a very destructive one at that. The common tongues, national traditions and customs that are tied to states were forged by public policy for the purpose of state-making. There are alternative models that can bolster state-making and alternative national models. The Americas have a rich tradition of nationalism rooted in civic values rather than cultural affectations.

As for the incomprehensible metaphor, I have no idea what you're saying so I can't comment on it.
7  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 30, 2015, 03:47:12 pm
I feel the need to make a contribution to this trainwreck of a thread.

I'm pretty appalled by the moral reasoning expressed in this thread. Has anyone considered that Europe's stance towards refugees is unethical? In my view, this is the central objection to Europe's attitudes towards refugees. Popular sentiment, as expressed in this thread, dictates that some lives are simply worth more than others and polities are responsive to this view. If this means that refugees will be left to drown in the Mediterranean or off-loaded onto states less capable to care for them, so be it! This is acceptable because they are worth less. They are others. They don't get European values or European traditions or democracy or liberalism etc.

This is pretty ironic, isn't it? Apparently, Europeans don't understand their own values or their rich history of political thought, which gave the world the notion of universal political rights and obligations that transcend tongue, religion and culture. Now, I have my issues with Western political thought and European history but I've never been able to embrace Third Worldist garbage because I understand that Europe, that continent of imperialist oppressors, also bequeathed the very rhetoric used by anti-imperialist revolutionaries to topple their masters. Europe has a dark legacy rooted in its history, one that cannot be escaped; every nation and people is culpable. It also has a beautiful legacy, one that makes me proud of my European ancestry. There's a reason why Benito Juarez invoked the values of the French Revolution when he resisted the French, there's a reason why Toussaint Louverture did the same.


Return to these values or suffer the ignominy that comes with allowing refugees to drown in the seas. The latter cannot be justified by any moral compass that isn't guided by crude/hackneyed utilitarian reasoning.

 I guess you can continue to engage in whataboutery or claim that it simply isn't possible for Europe to handle refugees but the latter pre-supposes that Europeans are truly vile inhuman creatures that are incapable of empathizing with refugees. I don't believe that this is the case. It's very clear that Europe has the resources to accommodate refugees, it's a question of will.
8  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 30, 2015, 03:25:31 pm
Xenophobia isn't inherent to "human nature", as Politicus disturbingly seems to believe. Societies can be educated to accept, and even actively promote, multiculturalism, if thier political and cultural leaders make the effort to endorse it, instead of pandering to irrational fears.

They should first explain what multiculturalism is though. Different cultures living side by side or the incorporation of non-native cultures into the dominant one? I.e. forcing people from different cultural backgrounds to accep the basic tenets of our western culture: freedom of speech and religion, gender equality... If it's the latter, I can most certainly sign up to that. The former - not exactly.

I think it's also perfectly acceptable for Danes to feel that their homeland should be the "Land of Danes" rather than the "Land of people who happen to live in Denmark." We tend to bemoan the disappearance of cultures and languages but when it comes to European cultures, efforts to preserve it are somehow frowned upon. Go figure.

How is this any different than saying "Europe for the Europeans" or "Diversity = White Genocide"?
9  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: The CrabCake Bureau of Funny Post Archival on: August 20, 2015, 09:48:15 pm
DO YOUR OWN ING HOMEWORK JACKASS!!!
10  General Politics / Political Geography & Demographics / Re: Obama voters from liberal, mainline Protestant denominations on: August 20, 2015, 09:47:23 pm
United Church of Christ - Obama 55%
The Episcopal Church - Obama 50%
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - Obama 50%
Presbyterian Church USA - Obama 45%
United Methodist Church - Obama 35%

It's worth noting that the bulk of "members" are almost certainly non-believers or unconcerned about Christianity. Non-believing members of the Episcopal or Presbyterian Church or the UCC are almost certainly Democrats: all of these denominations are known for their educated/white collar profiles. As a result, I'd wager that the average PCUSA member is much more liberal than the average churchgoing Presbyterian.

These denominations share little in common imo. The theology of these churches may be somewhat similar but the demographic profile of the Episcopal church is really distinct from the demographic profile of the ELCA.

ELCA - the church of Scandinavians from all class backgrounds.
Episcopal Church - wealthy, upper middle class WASPs from both the South and New England. I could easily imagine Episcopal members overwhelmingly supporting Romney. I could also imagine them backing Obama.
PCUSA - tends to attract educated, white collar members; especially in the South. This was certainly the case in my congregation. There were quite a few liberals, some moderate Republicans and quite a few conservatives. I'd say that my congregation was 50-50 in 2008.

I don't know much about Methodists or the UCC.
11  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Would you have been a Democrat pre-1900? on: August 20, 2015, 09:22:53 pm
I'm not a reactionary.
12  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread on: August 20, 2015, 07:48:18 pm
I think America is partially to blame for this situation. I applaud European leaders for attempting to take on this necessary burden but America has the capacity to take a few million refugees. We've refused to do anything.
13  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Are you offended by whites making racist comments about whites? on: August 20, 2015, 07:45:43 pm
It kind of upsets me that in addition to everything else, white people have now appropriated making fun of white people, too.
14  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Do you support ending birthright citizenship (US)? on: August 20, 2015, 07:39:33 pm
I support deporting anyone who's opposed to birthright citizenship.
15  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Greek Referendum on IMF/Troika deal on: July 03, 2015, 09:06:04 pm
Things are so crazy right now that, I don't know, the fact that Allende appointed Pinochet seems relevant.

But on your query, yes, of course they would have done (ANEL are also 'anti-austerity' and are the hardliners on military spending, geographical VAT differentials and so on). Not sure whether it would have mattered much though.

I think you're right. This is pretty spooky behavior...
Quote
In a rare move, 16 former armed forces leaders of Greece have signed a joint declaration calling on the Greek people to show "calm and national unity" ahead of Sunday's referendum on whether to accept creditors' demands for more austerity.
The letter said "Greece is at a highly critical moment in its history that will require difficult and inevitably painful decisions ... All Greeks, united and above party political lines and divisions, must help with all means available to address this situation with calm and national unity."
The letter was signed by three former chiefs of the armed forces, nine ex-army chiefs, two former heads of the navy and two former heads of the air force.

http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/business_news/national_business/article_9c650a97-d150-575c-ac29-23f77de1a6b4.html
16  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Greek Referendum on IMF/Troika deal on: July 03, 2015, 08:31:11 pm
Increasingly suspecting that going into bed with ANEL was an error.

How so? Do you think that the Eurogroup would have reacted more favorably to a Potami-SYRIZA coalition?
17  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Greek Referendum on IMF/Troika deal on: July 03, 2015, 08:22:37 pm
Quote
Mr. Tsipras, whose political career is on the line in the vote, took time out Thursday evening to criticize the news media. During a televised interview, he complained of unbalanced coverage. When challenged by a reporter, he offered official figures showing that the six main stations in Greece had given about eight minutes to a no rally and 46 minutes to a yes rally.

The bulk of the coverage of the no rally came from one station, ERT, he said, which had been shut down by the previous government and which gave both sides about equal time.

He said that one station, Skai, gave zero minutes to the no rally, which drew thousands to a square in front of the Parliament building and more than seven minutes to the equally well-attended yes rally the next day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/04/world/europe/alexis-tsipras-greece-debt-crisis-referendum.html

Will "the oligarchs" crush SYRIZA?

One of SYRIZA's election pledges was the end of favorable state contracts to certain media companies. This pledge was a key part of SYRIZA's platform because commercial licenses have been granted in a clientelistic manner; both PASOK and ND offered licenses to allies and friends, a commercial television has never been sold.

This goes to show that for all of the EU's bluster, SYRIZA is ultimately the party that stands the best shot at "modernizing" or "rationalizing" Greece. They were the only party that pledged to take aims to reduce tax evasion and reduce corruption. Nevertheless, the Troika has attempted to boot them from power because SYRIZA dared to take a stand at the mythology of "contractionary fiscal expansion", which is not really concerned with corruption or the lack of optimal markets in key sectors of the Greek economy.
18  General Politics / Economics / Re: Greece to Leave the Euro Zone on: July 02, 2015, 01:17:57 am
Ordinarily, I'd be irritated at this seemingly off-topic discussion but it's a pretty telling discussion.

The manner in which ag approaches the thorny student loan issue is interesting. He approaches it by thinking about ways in which students can optimize their situation in accordance with their preferences while facing certain constraints. Meanwhile, the rest of the forum appears to be approaching this issue by thinking about normative questions asking whether or not it's just for students to face these constraints when they live in an affluent society? In my view, this characterizes the debate surrounding Greece quite nicely. Sure, Greece could have approached the negotiations differently or prepared for default differently etc. I like discussing questions of strategy but the questions that matter are normative: is it just for creditor countries to create humanitarian crises in debtor nations for the sake of illusive "competitiveness" that tends to create less than ideal distributional outcomes? This question could be posed in a manner that doesn't betray my bias.

Anyways, I share ag's perspectives on student debt but that doesn't inform my stance on public policy choices. Frankly, I don't care all that much about what students could do, I care about the realm of the real where students are drowning in debt, in large part because they're being swindled by for-profit universities or universities that are attempting to fill funding gaps by expanding recreational services to make their campuses more attractive for foreigners or out of state students, which tends to push up the cost of tuition for in-state students.

edit: fwiw, I think that point 8 of ag's list mostly explains the Eurogroup's reaction to Greece. In the Eurogroup's reckoning, rules matter and rewarding a government that has done everything in its power to break with the Memorandum would send a bad signal to countries with better bargaining positions.
19  Forum Community / Forum Community / My Leave of Absence on: May 04, 2015, 07:21:25 pm
I'm going to be taking some time off from this forum. I don't think it has been healthy for me to be exposed to the inane garbage that increasingly dominates this forum. This doesn't mean that I'm leaving to send a message or anything like that. This isn't "passive aggressive". I'm leaving because I'm a selfish person who wants to focus on my life rather than arguments on the internet; I've been annoyed at the amount of time I waste on this forum. I'm making this thread because I don't want people to assume that I was in a car accident or whatever.

I want to live my life and focus on doing things that need to be done rather than "sperging" out and being constantly irritated at people who are wrong on the internet. I may or may not be back.

20  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: U.S. Split Along Racial Lines on Backlash Against Police, Poll Finds on: May 04, 2015, 05:39:16 pm
"How dare you call White America racist!" - Atlas forum
21  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Texas: two gunmen shot dead after opening fire at Mohammed cartoon contest on: May 04, 2015, 05:23:08 pm
I guess if the Catholic Church had send a assassin after Andres Serrano, TheDeadFlagBlues and his ilk would attack Andres Serrano.

Nope. I don't think Andres Serrano is a bigot, I just think his art is terrible/tasteless.

Geert Wilders is a politician of ill-repute who has attempted to stir up hate and bigotry. Andres Serrano is an artist who makes terrible art. One of these things is not like the other.

So if Geert Wilders political career was one long performance art project, you would suddenly find it okay?

I guess if the Catholic Church had send a assassin after Andres Serrano, TheDeadFlagBlues and his ilk would attack Andres Serrano.

Nope. I don't think Andres Serrano is a bigot, I just think his art is terrible/tasteless.

Geert Wilders is a politician of ill-repute who has attempted to stir up hate and bigotry. Andres Serrano is an artist who makes terrible art. One of these things is not like the other.

So if Geert Wilders political career was one long performance art project, you would suddenly find it okay?

This is a strange counter-factual. His career clearly isn't a performance art project. Even if Geert Wilders' political career was one long performance art project, I'm not sure how I would react because that would be utterly surreal. I'd like to think I would condemn him for promoting bigotry though.

I don't know what your point is ingemann. Are you irritated that I said "I wouldn't shed a tear for Geert Wilders"? That's pretty accurate, I hate him and condemn this project. Why do you think this means that I support terrorists?
22  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Jeb Bush likes controversial sociologist Charles Murray's books on: May 04, 2015, 04:09:07 pm
Well, this was a wonderful act of intellectual masturbation on your part, A+ work Alcon; you're a smart man. Although your assumption about the intent of my posts was correct, you've missed the entire point of the post above: I think it's incredibly weird and toxic that you decided to engage in this world-class pedantry on a post I made about the implications of the supposed connection between genetic intelligence and racism. I've made similar posts before about other topics. Why this one?

From my perspective, the optics of this move look terrible. An educated white liberal unpacked the argument of a mixed-race leftist made against the idea of "genetic intelligence with regards to race" for the purpose of arguing in favor of a particular use of empirical evidence.

Fine Alcon: you win. I'm opposed to these studies because I'm worried about the malevolent intentions of others and am uncomfortable about the potential that the findings are correct. I don't want to be dumber than white people because of my genes. I don't want people to think I'm an intellectually inferior product because my skin is a certain tone and have indigenous ancestry. I don't want any of this and a bunch of hacks, who often have malevolent intentions, love summarizing dubious research into this topic. Although the aims of these hacks are diverse, it has the ultimate effect of convincing policymakers on the right to oppose immigration, affirmative action and "anti-racist" policy goals. Do you understand why I instinctually hate these people? They cast doubt on me, my mother and my relatives in Mexico. Furthermore, they cast doubt on some of my friends. These studies justify the latent racism of many white people. I don't want that.

I try to be as impartial as possible but I'm not able to on this topic. Maybe you are and maybe that's fine but don't act like you're a big man because you can do that. A (admittedly senile) substitute  teacher once told me that "Mexican immigrants are uneducated and stupid". I've been frequently told that I'm "not like other Mexicans" because I'm "smart". I can't be "impartial" and use empirical evidence in a scholarly fashion about these studies. They're an attack on my very existence. I can't just sit back and let a bunch of bigots trample my dignity. I'll reply to their posts, argue with them in public and defend my existence. If it's a bit sophistic, I accept that but I'm wary of saying "I hate Study X because I'm a 'minority'" because that appears like a weak attack, like an "appeal to emotion" or like intellectual weak tea.
23  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Texas: two gunmen shot dead after opening fire at Mohammed cartoon contest on: May 04, 2015, 03:59:21 pm
I guess if the Catholic Church had send a assassin after Andres Serrano, TheDeadFlagBlues and his ilk would attack Andres Serrano.

Nope. I don't think Andres Serrano is a bigot, I just think his art is terrible/tasteless.

Geert Wilders is a politician of ill-repute who has attempted to stir up hate and bigotry. Andres Serrano is an artist who makes terrible art. One of these things is not like the other.
24  General Politics / Economics / Re: Battle of the economists: Paul Krugman vs Peter Schiff on: May 04, 2015, 03:50:20 pm
I voted for the economist over the charlatan clown who peddles defective financial products.
25  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Texas: two gunmen shot dead after opening fire at Mohammed cartoon contest on: May 04, 2015, 03:46:06 pm
Quote
Many Muslims do believe that cartoons of Mohammed are offensive, but the reasons for that belief are widely misunderstood.

The explanation you most commonly hear for protests against depictions of Mohammed is that Islam condemns those portrayals as "blasphemy." But the truth may be simpler — and far more universal. Mohammed is a venerated figure among Muslims, who often perceive cartoons and other material critical of him — such as the 2012 film Innocence of Muslims — as an attack on their Muslim identity.

Dalia Mogahed, the director of research at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, explained that Mohammed is a beloved figure to Muslims, and "it is a human impulse to want to protect what's sacred to you."

Mogahed compared the cartoons to the issue of flag-burning in the United States, noting that a majority of Americans favor a constitutional amendment to ban flag-burning for similar reasons: the flag is an important symbol of a national identity, and many Americans see flag-burning as an attack on that identity, or even on the country itself. That's not extremism or backwardness; it's about protecting something you cherish.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/9/7517221/charlie-hebdo-blasphemy

To move this discussion away from what people think is offensive, why not investigate social scientific literature that has explored this topic?
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 159


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines