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News: Atlas Hardware Upgrade complete October 13, 2013.

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1  Forum Community / Forum Community / Leaving for a while on: January 31, 2016, 02:40:02 am
I'm leaving the forum for a while. I'll probably be back eventually.

I'll still be checking PMs if anybody wants to stay in contact that way.
2  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Describe the Previous Person's Ideology on: January 30, 2016, 06:09:50 pm
A libertarian socialist.

?

*SKIP*
3  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Update for Everyone III - The Whinge Binge on: January 30, 2016, 06:01:38 pm
I take back everything I've said about my gender in the past two pages. I've fallen under the influence of radical ideas concocted in certain parts of Continental Europe and ought to be self-aware enough about that that I'm able to separate it from my fundamental self-understanding. I'd appreciate some acknowledgement of this from people in this thread who have previously expressed concern, but I don't want any more public discussion of this affair after that.

I'm still going to be under the influence of said ideas but I'll be processing them and personally applying them differently. I'd be very interested in discussing this further with fellow POF (Posters Of Faith).
4  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Describe the Previous Person's Ideology on: January 30, 2016, 05:58:49 pm
Ludic-liberal.
5  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Pro-Life People Only: How Should Abortion be Punished? on: January 30, 2016, 05:47:41 pm

For all that 'choice' gets talked about positively in the context of abortion, it's really not perceived/interpreted as a free act for a lot of women (some obscene percentage of abortions in America are flat-out coerced, and that's without even considering real or perceived socioeconomic impossibilities), having an abortion is often a canary in the coal mine for other problems for which the woman really can't in any sense be blamed, and even though there are also plenty of times in which that isn't the case it doesn't strike me as at all a good idea to attempt to use penal law to determine what a post-abortive woman's motivations are.

These are actually relatively good reasons for abortion to be legal despite being morally wrong, so if I'm going to bite the bullet and insist that those reasons don't outweigh the state interest in preventing the killing of the very young (which is a difficult moral conclusion to come to and really not the no-brainer I falsely made it out to be in the recent thread in US General) then I owe it to women in these kinds of situations to at least not advocate punishing them. (I also owe it to them to advocate a safe and equitable economic system and legally ensured social protections, so as to not turn being 'pro-life' into some sort of sick combination of pregnancy fetishism and the mere addition paradox. Which is what I think a lot of the 'pro-life' movement does, and which is why I'm still very uncomfortable sharing my basic position on abortion with a lot of the people with whom I share it.)

Reproductive coercion is domestic abuse. On that basis it is only fair to note that this also includes women being pressured into keeping unwanted children (and yes for communal religious reasons and promises of financial assistance etc) The ratio of this is statistically balanced so I think it is unfair to base your reasoning on just one face of this exploitation. The effect of your position is to perhaps unintentionally tacitly endorse the other side of this exploitation which I think you ought to consider.

Yes, women being forced to keep unwanted children is absolutely also abusive.

I'm generally of the position that we need to change the culture around this first and foremost (why are there children who are constructed/positioned as being 'unwanted' (in this sense)? Surely someone wants them; surely someone wants any child!) rather than focusing on criminal law. I'm 'on the pro-life side' because I am nevertheless willing to entertain anti-abortion policy/legal ideas, but to the extent that I'm more interested in the issue morally than legally I guess I'd be more in line with Tanaka Mitsu and other early seventies Japanese feminist activists, one of whose rallying cries was 'We need a society where women can give birth in peace! We need a society where women become inclined to give birth!' Part of the reason I've become more vocally interested in abortion as an issue and in 'pro-life' as a way of characterizing my thinking about it lately is that I recently had the opportunity to read some work that the contemporary philosopher Morioka Masahiro has done on the history of Japanese grassroots bioethics (Japan is the only country I'm aware of in which 'grassroots bioethics' is a thing). You'll probably remember that I brought up concepts from this tradition in the context of end-of-life issues too a few weeks back. The conclusions that I reach are somewhat more conservative than those that the Japanese feminist bioethical consensus (such as it is) ended up incorporating--Morioka might or might not accept the appellation 'pro-life' in certain contexts, Tanaka certainly wouldn't, certain people who were heavily involved in what's called the 'conflict between women and disabled people' (guess what that was about!) absolutely would--but they're broadly comparable.

In general my main interest in this is a 'pure' philosophy-of-language interest in pushing back against the idea that 'rights' language is an appropriate way to discuss a woman's stake in abortion. The question then becomes: How to put the 'pure' philosophy into political practice? I do think there's a compelling state interest in keeping abortion rates low and indicating the moral unacceptability of the practice; I'm deeply concerned about the message that putting my own preferred policies into effect would send to women in impossible or even simply undesired situations; I have no idea yet how to resolve this but I'm working on it.

I'll point out that in addition to investigating the conservative Catholic ideas that you were so (largely rightly) excoriating towards in our conversation earlier and the Japanese Buddhist bioethical ideas that I'm discussing here I'm also being exposed to much more conventional pro-choice American liberal Protestantism through my academic work and the social and political atmosphere at my seminary so it's entirely possible that my views on the legal/social side of this (as opposed to the moral side, on which I've never considered abortion okay and doubt I ever will) will oscillate wildly over the next couple of years. Going into my degree program I was instructed to remain open to possible changes in my beliefs, so I've gotten vastly more erratic lately. Check back in another two months and I might have gone full Rosemary Radford Ruether. I might also only be interested in talking about phenomenology. I don't know.
6  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Pro-Life People Only: How Should Abortion be Punished? on: January 30, 2016, 02:46:42 pm
Why not just admit that you hate anyone that doesn't have a dick and we can just move on with our day. (I'm obviously not talking to you Maddy, but holy christ, most of these answers...)

Uh, this has nothing to do with Sexism for anyone, except for maybe Naso and Rick Santorum. It's about recognizing abortion for what it is - removing a human life from this world.

but who care about the human life if it cannot feels

Not to defend people who are openly salivating over the prospect of legally punishing women for their personal tragedies, but this doesn't really make much sense. Every lack of sensitivity or consciousness that's true of feti (in general) is also true of other classes of people who are indisputedly treated as alive.

ETA: Virginia beat me to it.
7  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Pro-Life People Only: How Should Abortion be Punished? on: January 30, 2016, 02:32:29 pm
I haven't made up my mind on this issue. I consider abortion problematic after, say, 10 weeks, but there is a difference between murder and abortion of a fetus.

The woman generally shouldn't be punished, not because the act isn't wrong but because there are good sociological reasons not to.
What reasons do you have in mind?

For all that 'choice' gets talked about positively in the context of abortion, it's really not perceived/interpreted as a free act for a lot of women (some obscene percentage of abortions in America are flat-out coerced, and that's without even considering real or perceived socioeconomic impossibilities), having an abortion is often a canary in the coal mine for other problems for which the woman really can't in any sense be blamed, and even though there are also plenty of times in which that isn't the case it doesn't strike me as at all a good idea to attempt to use penal law to determine what a post-abortive woman's motivations are.

These are actually relatively good reasons for abortion to be legal despite being morally wrong, so if I'm going to bite the bullet and insist that those reasons don't outweigh the state interest in preventing the killing of the very young (which is a difficult moral conclusion to come to and really not the no-brainer I falsely made it out to be in the recent thread in US General) then I owe it to women in these kinds of situations to at least not advocate punishing them. (I also owe it to them to advocate a safe and equitable economic system and legally ensured social protections, so as to not turn being 'pro-life' into some sort of sick combination of pregnancy fetishism and the mere addition paradox. Which is what I think a lot of the 'pro-life' movement does, and which is why I'm still very uncomfortable sharing my basic position on abortion with a lot of the people with whom I share it.)
8  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: Counter-Reformation vs. Magisterial Reformation vs. Radical Reformation on: January 30, 2016, 02:16:23 pm
Magisterial because the Magisterial Reformation created some fairly good forms of Protestantism while the Counter-Reformation made Catholicism worse.
9  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Pro-Life People Only: How Should Abortion be Punished? on: January 30, 2016, 12:46:52 pm
This thread is deeply concerning.
10  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Should non-traditional forms of intercourse be prohibited? on: January 30, 2016, 12:45:42 pm
This would cause me to have a lot of extra time on my hands.

[insert crude joke about 'your hands']

love ya Torie
11  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Was Adi Sankara crypto-Buddhist? on: January 30, 2016, 03:17:14 am
Arguments for:

  • Dialectical philosophy
  • Apophatic
  • His Brahman bears a distinct family resemblance to Nagarjuna's sunyata

Arguments against:

  • Affirmed the existence of atman
12  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Describe the Previous Person's Ideology on: January 30, 2016, 02:08:12 am
John Knox Revivalist.
13  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: What Issues Do You Disagree With Your Party On? on: January 30, 2016, 01:51:01 am
Using the Democrats for now: Abortion, general relative prioritization of issues, a variety of economic issues on which I disagree from the left.
14  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Update for Everyone III - The Whinge Binge on: January 30, 2016, 01:46:52 am
I got drunk and I'm reading about philosophy of mind. Double-aspect theory is fun.
15  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Describe the Previous Person's Ideology on: January 29, 2016, 11:38:49 pm
Cynical Maistrean.
16  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Should non-traditional forms of intercourse be prohibited? on: January 29, 2016, 11:37:42 pm
No, of course not.

Define "non-traditional"?

I'd assume 'traditional' is uncontracepted married PIV.
17  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Pro-Life People Only: How Should Abortion be Punished? on: January 29, 2016, 11:33:55 pm
The woman generally shouldn't be punished, not because the act isn't wrong but because there are good sociological reasons not to. I don't know how the doctor should be punished but it should be a punishment that's existent and significant but not so steep as to ignore the fact that most people do, psychologically, process abortion and murder as at least different in degree (whether this difference in perception has any basis in reality is not really the point; difference in perception is relevant in a democratic society).
18  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Could cocaine and khat be legalized in another 50 years? on: January 29, 2016, 07:19:07 pm
LOL@Tony.

Don't you actually oppose legalize even MARIJUANA?

I'm fine with personal consumption and (obviously) medical use. I don't think it should be sold for profit. For the record, I'd say the same about cigarettes.

So basically you want it to be legal to buy and use but have the only way to buy it via an illegal black market?

Yeah, Antonio, this...this isn't a sensible position.
19  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Update for Everyone III - The Whinge Binge on: January 29, 2016, 06:56:53 pm
For the record, I deleted my post as I felt it more appropriate to ask her personally. The last dozen posts (abortion, quoting prayer) are somewhat out of character.

1. The abortion thing is something I've had 'out-of-character' opinions on for a long time now--longer than I've been religious, actually!--but it's only recently I decided Atlas Forum ought to get my actual views on it.
2. Did you take note of the context in which I quoted the Salve Regina? I like to think 'hassling Calvinists' is very in-character for me.
3. I've decided I'd be willing to discuss this in private (I was undecided on this for a couple of days) but you made a public spectacle of this in another thread and I'm very unhappy about that.

ETA: I don't know why I'm comfortable discussing this privately but not publicly. I'm giving thought to what it will take to marry my girlfriend in a way that more conservative Christians, including her family and a lot of both her and my social circles, will consider legit. Most of the changes in the ways I express and internalize my religiosity lately have had something to do with my relationship with her. (I realize that this will make a lot of Atlas Forum think poorly of her; please take my word for it that the relationship is worth it from my perspective.)

As 'beginning to consider' in my initial post ought to have indicated I'm not decided on going through with doing things this way, and she's not the kind of person who'd force me if I decide not to so there's no need to worry about that.
20  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Describe the Previous Person's Ideology on: January 29, 2016, 12:37:40 am
Jewish right, not averse to moderation or compromise on non-Israel issues.
21  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Science Megathread on: January 28, 2016, 11:56:55 pm
If confirmed, it probably would get the name of a Roman god or goddess that hasn't already been used for a minor planet.  How about Libertas? Wink

Proserpina!
22  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Houston clears Planned Parenthood... and indicts prolife activists instead. on: January 28, 2016, 11:48:37 pm
I understand the deontological argument for abortion that you're making. What I'm saying is that, within my perspective and my moral context, the points you're making would have merit if I weighted the things I value in a utilitarian way (insofar as I think that bodily autonomy, gender equality, and children being alive are all good things, and that it's possible to argue that the first two (especially the second!) are more good for more people than the third), but don't given that I weight them in a deontological way (insofar as I think that it's categorically wrong to kill somebody who is impinging on your autonomy unintentionally and through no fault of their own, and that the 'potential human being'/'living human being' distinction is, in this context, spurious).

I think family planning is something that the state has a very clear and positive vested interest in promoting! That's why as a matter of public policy the use of any form of contraception that takes effect before the ovum is fertilized should be widely encouraged, even though I have religious reasons to find that morally questionable as well.
23  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Houston clears Planned Parenthood... and indicts prolife activists instead. on: January 28, 2016, 11:30:13 pm
Doesn't make abortion any less wrong.

As I said, right wingers don't understand the concepts of legal and illegal.  You don't run a country based on what each individual determines in their head is right and wrong.  That is called anarchy.  Democrats support what we call laws.

I'm very far left. I just know that abortion is wrong.

Excellent riposte!

I know that abortion is right and very good because it prevents women from having children that they do not want, which increases their autonomy,

This is a potentially good argument for abortion in a utilitarian moral framework.

Quote
promotes gender equality

This is indisputably a good argument for abortion in a utilitarian moral framework.

Quote
and is also very good news if one enjoys casual sex.

This is a disgusting argument for abortion in practically any moral framework.
24  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Houston clears Planned Parenthood... and indicts prolife activists instead. on: January 28, 2016, 10:51:27 pm
This is not about abortion. It's about using deception and fraud to advance your political views. I hope we can all agree that's a bad thing even if you support the views in question.

Well, yes.

So then why dump 'doesn't make it right' rather than comment on the substance of what has happened? Quite unlike you. If we're doing that I can now call you for the first time 'anti-women' Cheesy Now there's a first.

I thought I had enough pro-woman bona fides on the forum for it to be relatively evident that I didn't approve of the skulduggery. I'm not sure why I thought that, because it doesn't really follow, but I did.

cuckservatives

wow lol
25  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Could cocaine and khat be legalized in another 50 years? on: January 28, 2016, 10:45:48 pm
Perhaps not 50 years. Still, we can't entirely dismiss the possibility that within a century or so the entire Western world will have turned into an amoral libertarian dystopia - in which case legal cocaine will be the least of our problems.

Ever read Snow Crash?
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