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7551  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 02:34:17 am
Had you been born yet?

Your use of ad hominems has elevated the quality of this debate.
 
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The odd part of this all is that it is still not in the US Constitution... that means somewhere at some time, some people must have disagreed with your views on this issue. It was not ratified and consistently lost support when its fallacies were pointed out...virtually every woman I knew at that time when the ERA regularly made news opposed its passage

I don't really believe that every woman you knew opposed it, but your anecdotal evidence is unreliable regardless. Women have always favored the ERA by overwhelming margins, and men do too. You might have been misinformed of the facts in the past, but I don't see why you can't take a look at the evidence. The people who disagreed with the mainstream position then were old Southern white males near exclusively.

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As for the toilet amendment- I don't plan to include the word toilet in my proposed amendment so you can sleep soundly tonight. As for the legal reality- that is open to debate. I believe the broad nature of the ERA can lead to unexpected and unwanted consequences... others have historically shared that view. My proposed amendment will be a good faith effort to reach our mutual intent with the passage of the ERA without those negative consequences

I'm now 70 years old and refuse to let myself get drawn in to a catfight on the web about a fake ERA to a fake constitution... so I will see myself to bed and continue this discussion tomorrow after proposing my amendment

I guess the question I'm asking is how you believe your legal opinion is more qualified than the experts.
7552  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 02:13:29 am
Well here we go again Napoleon...

The reality is that the Equal Rights Amendment has not been adopted in the fictional USA...


The ERA was voted for by 354 Representatives and 84 Senators. You're opposed to something that was a mainstream position even in 1972.


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I have strong objections, shared by others in this body and many across the country...rather then oppose the bill because of these objections- I am choosing to offer an amendment to compromise and create a situation where I and others can support this bill. I am disappointed that you are reacting the way you are to my intention to propose an amendment which- if passed- will lead me and others to back this bill...

A bill does not have to be 100% to your liking...the 3/4 draft compromise sure as hell wasn't to mine, but I voted for it because it was the result of a good faith effort to find middle ground on the issue.

Listen to this classic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7knIi3LGf4M

I don't know what your link is but an amendment talking about restrooms is a disgrace to our Constitution. Your objection happens to be detached from the legal reality of the text. How do you compromise with a position that isn't even rooted in reality?

I'm not accusing you of trying to use this to mask your opposition, but it simply isn't a truthful argument. This amendment would in absolutely no way mandate unisex restrooms. The only way this amendment would possibly affect restrooms is ensuring that men and women are each offered the proper facilities. What this amendment provides is equal rights under the law. Our right to privacy laws protect us from having to share toilet facilities simultaneously with members of the opposite sex.

You are saying I am not compromising but you're unwilling to even consider the facts that have been repeated over and over.
7553  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: How partisan is the previous poster? on: August 22, 2012, 01:48:59 am
I would say 7, but who knows with the avatar change. Tongue
7554  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:35:11 am
I will not be the President who (literally) supports adding toilet talk to our most honorable document, our Constitution. If such an amendment is adopted, I will have to withdraw my support, unfortunately.

I've offered evidence from the nation's top law enforcement official as well as the fictional US Senate and House of Representatives, and many state legislatures to support my position. This debate has taken an absurd and embarrassing turn. Not to mention the fact that the proponents of that exact text were (who knew?!) women. So you guys are suggesting that a) the Attorney General is lying b) that the United States Congress wants to open up female restrooms to sexual predators or something like that and c) that women themselves are advocating that those scary predators be allowed in.

Its also a great insult to the effort and intellectual capabilities of the women who have fought for this text for generations.

Can I get an eternal facepalm?
7555  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:30:09 am
I urge Senators not to disgrace our honorable Constitution by inserting language telling us who can use what toilet and when. This is a ridiculous idea that should be met with strong opposition.
7556  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:23:26 am
I don't see any problems with this, and given the detailed testimony of the Attorney General, it has my support.

We're happy to have you on board, Senator. Smiley
7557  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:21:16 am
Well, couldn't a gay guy conceivably get more than that much of a glance when we are taking a piss in a urinal? Surely there are some perverted ones.

7558  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:16:52 am
Sbane, I am surprised that you would say that! TJ is wrong.

Let's take a look at the United States. The Equal Rights amendment that passed Congress in 1972 read as follows:
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Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

Let me assure you that a supermajority of the US Congress did not vote to force men and women into the same bathrooms. Why would that apply here? It's a right wing strawman that we should expose for what it is.

As I already said before, I don't think the proponents here or in the US congress are in favor of uni-sex bathrooms. It just could be used later on to create uni-sex bathrooms. Of course that's not really a big deal.

And even dealing with the separate but equal argument, since gender differences are something that are a reality, as opposed to social constructs like race, a court would have much more of a case to rule that separation of the sexes is sometimes necessary, like in a locker room.

I'm not sure that actually is a possibility. Our lawmakers have sharp legal minds, and anywhere from 33% to 50% of the Congress has a law degree. I am confident that they would not have voted so strongly in favor of an amendment that would cause integration of restrooms. It's not like men are going to start playing in the WNBA or anything like that...
7559  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:13:16 am
And Napoleon- because some one with a Johnson is not a female!

Why must restrooms be separated by gender? Since you're the one raising this issue (it's actually a non-issue with regards to the amendment but...), I'd like to be able to understand your side some more.

I don't believe it's my obligation to defend what is a nearly unanimously supported policy...it is common sense to divide males and females for personal business such as using the restroom. I believe it is clear that we need confirmation thru an amendment that this will not be altered
I would like to see a logical argument. If it is common sense and unanimously supported, surely you could conjure up a reason?
Please see my post right above this in response to Sbane...

But you do find it acceptable for women to peep through stalls at other women? There must be a better reason for you to hold this position. I'd like to know, so I can better understand your point of view.
It is simply the fact that men and women, when involved in private activity with exposed private parts, feel more comfortable being seen in such a state by those of their same gender... I don't have poll numbers to jutify this, it is simply a part of human nature or maybe our culture

Thank you Senator. That is more along the lines of what I was looking for. Smiley

How do you reconcile this with the fact that the gender binary is a flawed concept and doesn't take a range of gender identities into account?
7560  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:09:07 am
And Napoleon- because some one with a Johnson is not a female!

Why must restrooms be separated by gender? Since you're the one raising this issue (it's actually a non-issue with regards to the amendment but...), I'd like to be able to understand your side some more.

I don't believe it's my obligation to defend what is a nearly unanimously supported policy...it is common sense to divide males and females for personal business such as using the restroom. I believe it is clear that we need confirmation thru an amendment that this will not be altered
I would like to see a logical argument. If it is common sense and unanimously supported, surely you could conjure up a reason?
Please see my post right above this in response to Sbane...

But you do find it acceptable for women to peep through stalls at other women? There must be a better reason for you to hold this position. I'd like to know, so I can better understand your point of view.
7561  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:06:50 am
And Napoleon- because some one with a Johnson is not a female!

Why must restrooms be separated by gender? Since you're the one raising this issue (it's actually a non-issue with regards to the amendment but...), I'd like to be able to understand your side some more.

I don't believe it's my obligation to defend what is a nearly unanimously supported policy...it is common sense to divide males and females for personal business such as using the restroom. I believe it is clear that we need confirmation thru an amendment that this will not be altered
I would like to see a logical argument. If it is common sense and unanimously supported, surely you could conjure up a reason?
7562  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 01:06:02 am
Sbane, I am surprised that you would say that! TJ is wrong.

Let's take a look at the United States. The Equal Rights amendment that passed Congress in 1972 read as follows:
Quote
Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

Let me assure you that a supermajority of the US Congress did not vote to force men and women into the same bathrooms. Why would that apply here? It's a right wing strawman that we should expose for what it is.
7563  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 12:58:07 am
And Napoleon- because some one with a Johnson is not a female!

Why must restrooms be separated by gender? Since you're the one raising this issue (it's actually a non-issue with regards to the amendment but...), I'd like to be able to understand your side some more.

Also, Scott- gender identity is inherently physical. I am sure you know biology, but here is the basis... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

That's a very simplistic way of looking at things. If you're going to cite Wikipedia, you might as well cite the proper article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
7564  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 12:51:42 am


How so?  If a man is psychologically a female, shouldn't she be allowed to enter the bathroom facility that most suits her?

If that man has a Johnson- then HE should not be allowed to enter a female bathroom

Why?


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Can my granddaughters check the African-American box when they apply to colleges if they claim to identify as such?

Strawman.

How so? This amendment seeks to equate sex and sexual identity with race in terms of protected status...is it therefore irrelevant to suggest that a white person could claim to identify as an African-American just as a man could claim to identify as a woman?

Yes. Very irrelevant. And very much a logical fallacy.
7565  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 12:48:17 am
I believe my remarks make it quite clear that I am not equating transgenders with sexual predators... I am making a distinction between them and arguing that the latter can exploit laws meant to protect the former

I already pointed out how that is ridiculous in my last post.

"My last point is that it is rather stupid for us, as a government, to deny rights to our people out of a paranoid fear that some creep might try to abuse a restroom and make an illegitimate claim of defense, and further, that our good courts would rule in favor of said creep were there an issue."

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I do not believe a transgender (assuming that means some one who has had a sex change operation) is the same as some one who claims to be another gender which doesn't match his or her biology....which to me seems rather silly.

You're confusing transgender and transsexual.

Quote
Can my granddaughters check the African-American box when they apply to colleges if they claim to identify as such?

Strawman.
7566  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 12:32:26 am
I would oppose changing sex to gender identity.... if some one has had an operation and has certain parts, that is his or her sex. If some one is biologically a male, that person claiming to identify as a female does not give him entry into a women's bathroom. You are opening the door to sexual predators who would exploit our tolerance for their sick gain...

First of all, it's offensive that you think transgender Atlasians are comparable to sexual predators.
Secondly, you are quite mistaken if you think that these people aren't already using the restrooms.
My last point is that it is rather stupid for us, as a government, to deny rights to our people out of a paranoid fear that some creep might try to abuse a restroom and make an illegitimate claim of defense, and further, that our good courts would rule in favor of said creep were there an issue.

This restroom scare is all smoke and mirrors.
7567  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 22, 2012, 12:18:09 am
If some are still unconvinced by the arguments put forth by Afleitch, Napoleon and myself, I'd be willing to find common ground and modify the language so that it specifically includes exemptions for single-sex clubs and separate bathrooms; I would much rather to do so in order to pass the amendment with bipartisan support.  That said, I urge my colleagues that modifications to the text do not refute the amendment's central purpose.
Unfortunately, Senator, that would remove the 'teeth" from the amendment.

It's quite obvious that things like restrooms , school locker rooms, sports organizations and such would not be affected by this amendment. Why weaken the amendment to pacify concerns that are not relevant to the amendment?

The only change that I think should be considered is what Mr. Moderate suggested- changing "sex" to "gender identity".
7568  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Imports Labor Oversight Committee Bill (At Final Vote) on: August 21, 2012, 11:50:33 pm
Senators?
7569  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 21, 2012, 11:48:13 pm
Respectfully, I think you are confused about what this amendment will actually do. I'm happy to answer questions but I don't want to sound like I'm repeating myself over and over as I think the other Senators will find that unproductive. Wink


Right...I appreciate your position and believe we are united in intent, but not the method of how to get there. I look forward to a respectful discussion Smiley

Thank you Senator. Let me know if you have further questions.

How does this not require the abolishment of separate bathrooms for men and women in public buildings? It makes gender essentially the same as race and separate bathrooms for whites and blacks would not be legal.

AG Afleitch has already answered this.
His restroom analogy is slightly off. Firstly there would still be seperate restrooms should an establishment wish (or unisex restrooms should they wish) as long as both sexes can do what they need to do. That is common practice anyway. All the ERA would outlaw, if it even still happens, is only having toilets exclusively for one sex.
7570  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 21, 2012, 11:44:19 pm
Respectfully, I think you are confused about what this amendment will actually do. I'm happy to answer questions but I don't want to sound like I'm repeating myself over and over as I think the other Senators will find that unproductive. Wink

7571  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 21, 2012, 11:31:57 pm
In other words, what problem are we trying to solve here...

We are trying to guarantee equal rights for all Atlasians regardless of sexual orientation or identity by incorporating it in to the supreme law of the land, our Constitution.
I understand that, but what rights are denied them now? I agree that marriage should be granted and have stood for this... but this law is broad and has many consequences which go far beyond righting obvious wrongs

I'm a forward-thinking progressive. There doesn't need to be rights currently denied if there could be rights denied in the future. I don't expect you'd be the founder questioning why we need a right to bear arms asking "How is it denied now?". For me, it is about guaranteeing freedom to our citizenry. Your examples of consequences have been addressed many times so I have nothing to add there...the amendment is entirely sound. There are minor text changes that may be appropriate so long as the brevity and purpose of the current text remains intact.
I agree with your intention but my concerns have not been addressed... I believe the bill currently is too broad and would like to see an amendment specifically excluding single-sex organizations. If I want to start a Newberry Men's Club, I ought to be able to... same for the Women's Club which exists now. I should not be able to join the Women's Club if they don't want men as members

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but to reiterate what AG Afleitch ahs already had to..
I do not know where you think this law will cause men and women to 'use the same restroom'; I explained succinctly why that was and is a ludicrous position.

We understand that it might be difficult for some of our more conservative Senators to vote in favor of protecting gay rights and gender equality. We have put this amendment forth because it represents our values and have explained how it would work with clarity.
7572  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 21, 2012, 11:21:33 pm
In other words, what problem are we trying to solve here...

We are trying to guarantee equal rights for all Atlasians regardless of sexual orientation or identity by incorporating it in to the supreme law of the land, our Constitution.
I understand that, but what rights are denied them now? I agree that marriage should be granted and have stood for this... but this law is broad and has many consequences which go far beyond righting obvious wrongs

I'm a forward-thinking progressive. There doesn't need to be rights currently denied if there could be rights denied in the future. I don't expect you'd be the founder questioning why we need a right to bear arms asking "How is it denied now?". For me, it is about guaranteeing freedom to our citizenry. Your examples of consequences have been addressed many times so I have nothing to add there...the amendment is entirely sound. There are minor text changes that may be appropriate so long as the brevity and purpose of the current text remains intact.
7573  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Opinion of Joe Democrat on: August 21, 2012, 10:40:33 pm
I have awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom for liberating the Congressional Elections board.  If only someone would do the same with the 2012 board, where my declaration of state of emergency still stands.
7574  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / Congressional Elections / Re: Wyoming Senate Race on: August 21, 2012, 10:34:10 pm
People don't really have the Internet in Wyoming anyways. Not as much of a campaign necessity as in a lot of other places.

Is that so? I can't imagine living in such a place. Still, I would think a campaign website would be extremely beneficial, if not absolutely necessary, to raise funds. Although I can see why a Democrat in Wyoming would ignore a national grassroots fundraising network..
7575  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: SENATE BILL: Equal Rights Amendment (Debating) on: August 21, 2012, 10:31:52 pm
In other words, what problem are we trying to solve here...

We are trying to guarantee equal rights for all Atlasians regardless of sexual orientation or identity by incorporating it in to the supreme law of the land, our Constitution.
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