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25801  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: "anti"-Islam Republicans: Do you like Sistani and al-Jaafari? on: August 11, 2005, 01:48:25 am
Not a Republican.

I would have never guessed. Smiley
25802  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / U.S. Presidential Election Results / Re: 100% counties on: August 10, 2005, 11:33:37 pm
Jackson in 1832 had 100% in GA, MS, and MO.
25803  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: What countries does the US have Free Trade Agreements with? on: August 10, 2005, 07:18:59 pm
I found a list. Strangely, Mexico has it with a lot of countries, so there's sort of indirect free trade between those countries and the US. The 4 countries I mentioned above were the complete list a couple of years ago.


http://www.sice.oas.org/tradee.asp
25804  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / $231 million for bridge to island of 50 people on: August 10, 2005, 06:45:28 pm
Yes, those "fiscally conservative" Republicans are building the (Republican) Don Young's Way bridge at the cost of $4.6 million per person on the island.
25805  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 04:22:52 pm
The entire Central Valley is working-class.

Most is IIRC. Not checked the stats for that area as much as I'd have liked to really...
I don't supose I need to point out that Boxer did much worse in the Central Valley than along the coast do I?


She ran much better there than Kerry, and won 2 Bush counties there (she also won 3 Bush counties in SoCal).  True, Jones still did well in the area because of people voting against their own economic self interests.

Region
LA County Boxer 68-30 Kerry 63-35
SoCal (no LA) Boxer 52-46 Bush 46-53
Bay Area Boxer 74-24 Kerry 70-27
Coastal Cali Boxer 63-36 Kerry 59-37
Central Valley Jones 43-54 Kerry 37-61

The margin was
10 points better in LA County
13 points better in SoCal
6 points better in Bay Area
5 points better in Costal Cali
13 points better in Central Valley

She won the salad bowl of America, Montery County, 62.4-33.0.

25806  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Should the Democrats adopt the agenda of Robertson and Falwell? on: August 10, 2005, 04:09:01 pm
I love how Scoonie, jfern, and a few other Democrats on this board think that by moving to the centre you immediately become a pawn of the religious right. I don't think that Clinton had the agenda of Robertson and Falwell neither do Bayh, Lincoln, Warner, Breaux, Richardson or Nelson. I don't see why you are so adverse towards moving to the centre to become more electable. If the Democrats don't do it somebody will, and that somebody may not be the Republicans either. Whoever is the more moderate, or who is percieved as the most moderate, usually wins in Presidential elections. So your party can either go in the direction of putting up candidates who score 100% from various leftist organizations or towards the direction of electoral victory and centrism.

We're aware that there are more than 2 options, but there are various reasons why we oppose moving to the right

1. It makes it look like you don't really believe in your positions. Voters will note this, and vote Republican
2. A lot of these "moderates" have no vison
3. If you alienate your base, they won't volunteer, contribute, or vote for you

The Republican party has been very sucessfully moving to the right. It was much more moderate in 1964 when Goldwater got his ass handed to him.
25807  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 04:06:36 pm
Kerry won CA by only 10 points, and it used to be fairly Republican, most recently going Republican in 1988.

And?
Boxer won it by 20 points. Do I have to say anything more?

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Not big into explanations, I see.

I've given a fair few reasons why she's an extremist. You got a memory like a Goldfish or summet?
You reasons for her being an extremist were that she's loony left. Scrap the circular reasoning.
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Ever hear of the FL scrub list?

Without putting too fine a point on it, if I wanted to steal an election I wouldn't have let it go within MoE like FL was...
That's a silly reason for claiming they didn't steal it.


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Well you seem to be heavily criticizing the most pro-union Senator.

Am I? I rather like most of the rustbelt Senators
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Not as liberal as Boxer, although Feingold is pretty close, and Durbin is also pretty liberal.

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Do you support Roe vs. Wade, genius?

No; it's a classic example of legislating from the bench, has caused untold political divisions, has at it's heart a disgusting principle and the public is largely ignorant about it.

Well, I'm in the 65% that supports it, and you're in the 29% that opposes it. Since the Republican party already opposes it, don't you think it'd make sense for the Democratic party to support it, given those numbers?
25808  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 04:05:24 pm
The entire Central Valley is working-class.

Shhh. People don't really work in California. Wink
25809  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 04:01:20 pm
Not the same at all? WTF do you mean by that?

Should be obvious... unless you're a Maxist or summet...
Explain why you don't seem to care so much about the CA working class.

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The cost of living is much higher here, BTW.

Doesn't have much to do with whether someone is working class or not
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It does have quite a bit to do with how comfortably they can live on $6.50 an hour.

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How nice of you to ignore the California poor. There are a ton of homeless here.

Ignoring? No. Avoiding misleading labels? Yes.
What?

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What makes you say that Jones is more conservative than Bush?

I didn't say he was. He's much more of a nutter though.
What do you mean by that? He only appears to be out of the mainstream because CA is such a liberal state.

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I never said they were great, I just said that I'm for a woman's right to choose?

Explain that
What more is there to say? I thought that explained it all. John Kerry said that he was personally opposed to abortion, but was for a woman's right to choose.

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Understand the difference?

In theory. No difference in practice. But then you support abortion as a form of social darwinism so...
What? I'm more left wing than you economically.

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Well, they seem to exist a lot more on other sides of the political compass. If I have to talk about Democratic extremists, I'd have to say Larouche supporters, but I'm not sure if there's even a place on the political compass for them.

See Blue Rectangle's post

---
Al

Whatever, can you explain what an extremist is? I've asked you several times, and you have been unable to explain. You are a really sh**tty arguer. At least J.J. is more convincing, even when he's 100% wrong.
25810  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Should the Democrats adopt the agenda of Robertson and Falwell? on: August 10, 2005, 03:55:13 pm
Maybe we should outlaw calculators. Just think of all those mathematicians we put out of business.

Haha, boy our average high school math scores would go down then.  We would bankrupt Texas Instruments.

College Calculus courses sometimes don't allow calculators.
25811  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:52:33 pm
Apparently, some Democrats have decided to junk jfern's approach and adopt Al's:

Democrats Woo Values Voters

This is just a stunt until some upper-level Democrat apparatchik actually believes that this move is necessary for Democrat electoral survival. Until then, it is yet another frivolous p.r. makeover of the type Al Gore is famous for.

Wait, how does this contradict what I was arguing?

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Last month, Democratic spiritual leaders gathered in Berkeley, Calif., to focus on resurrecting the American spiritual left.
25812  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:51:13 pm
I've never been to these places in California, but aren't places like Oakland and South Central LA filled to the gills with homeless people?

Yes. And it's a big problem. I don't think they can be classed as working class though.

Some of them work. It's just that CA rents and housing values are insane. The federal government fails to take cost of living into consideration.
25813  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:50:24 pm
I've never been to these places in California, but aren't places like Oakland and South Central LA filled to the gills with homeless people?

Yes
25814  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: What is the most liberal major city in the U.S.? on: August 10, 2005, 03:48:26 pm

I was talking about rich, white liberals claim to care so much about the poor and minorities, but don't do anything to help other than vote Democrat (who, not coincidentally, have a vested interest in keeping poor minorities exactly where they are now).

Are you going to tell me that Democrats like John Conyers are pourposefully keeping the black man down?
25815  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: What countries does the US have Free Trade Agreements with? on: August 10, 2005, 03:44:45 pm
Canada, Mexico, Israel, Jordan
25816  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Why are there so few female forum members? on: August 10, 2005, 03:43:26 pm
Well, that's the point. People are perverts, and my friends would rather stay away from Internet perverts whenever possible. Tongue

So basicaly they prefer being with non-Internet perverts? Smiley
25817  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:38:01 pm
And you accuse the left of being out of touch.

Sense of humour failure?

As a serious point, there isn't *much* of a working class in California, sure there's poor people but that's not the same at all...

Not the same at all? WTF do you mean by that? The cost of living is much higher here, BTW. How nice of you to ignore the California poor. There are a ton of homeless here.

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California is a Democratic-leaning state, so obviously this Republican couldn't have been too crazy right wing. He's definitely more moderate than Bush.

Interesting logic there

What makes you say that Jones is more conservative than Bush?

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Define it. What makes someone loony or extreme left?

I think that it's perfectly fair to call someone who thinks that abortions are great an extremist

I never said they were great, I just said that I'm for a woman's right to choose? Understand the difference?

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I can tell you right now that if someone who was really extreme left had run for CA Senate, Jones would have won.

Yeah, but what do *you* think an extremist is?

Well, they seem to exist a lot more on other sides of the political compass. If I have to talk about Democratic extremists, I'd have to say Larouche supporters, but I'm not sure if there's even a place on the political compass for them.
25818  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:34:22 pm
Neither is almost any other state

Not the point, not the point. Some crazy like Boxer winning in California isn't impressive, neither is a crazy like Cornyn winning in Texas
Kerry won CA by only 10 points, and it used to be fairly Republican, most recently going Republican in 1988.

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How is she an extremist?

Roll Eyes
Not big into explanations, I see.

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You're a total fool if you think that FL 2000 wasn't stolen. Do you really believe that Bush won it fair and square?

There were irregularities yes, but not a massive evil conspiracy or anything...
Ever hear of the FL scrub list?

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What do you mean by party line? The Democratic party isn't organized enough to really have that be so meaningful.

O.K then, opposite to the GOP line...


A lot of sh**t passes the Senate 100-0.

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Why do you hate unions?

Huh Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Funny!
Well you seem to be heavily criticizing the most pro-union Senator.

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65% of Americans want Roe vs. Wade to be upheld. They fight for that 65%, not the wingnuts like you.

Roll Eyes

Keep on dodging the hard things to answer...
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Do you support Roe vs. Wade, genius?
25819  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:30:13 pm
PRO-HILLARYCARE? OH NOES!!!!!

Yeah. I want to be able to work less for other people, and more for myself.

Does anyone actually think Boxer could carry California in a presidential election? Senator and president are two very different jobs.

If the best you can come up with is that she's pro-HillaryCare, she'd win California pretty easily. Why would she run over 20 points worse in a Presidential election, against someone more right-wing than Jones?
25820  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:28:43 pm
1. Why are the needs of the CA working class so incredibly different from those elsewhere? If anything, they're greater in CA, due to a higher cost of living.

There's still a working class in California? Tongue
And you accuse the left of being out of touch.
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2. If he's so extreme right-wing then how did he get elected CA secretary of state in 1994 and 1998? He's really  to the left of Bush.

California just loves it's nutters Wink
California is a Democratic-leaning state, so obviously this Republican couldn't have been too crazy right wing. He's definitely more moderate than Bush.
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Explain what the difference between the left and loony left is, you reality-challenged fool.

You need to ask? Loony Left=Extreme Left

Define it. What makes someone loony or extreme left? I can tell you right now that if someone who was really extreme left had run for CA Senate, Jones would have won.
25821  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:24:48 pm
Heres a good reccomedation for us.

We should go against abortion but be for killing babies.

Hey, it works for the Republicans.
25822  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:24:17 pm
Californians don't seem to care.

Californians are not representative of America as a whole
Neither is almost any other state

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Why should you care?
Er... I was just pointing out why she's an extremist...
How is she an extremist?

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I suppose you're one of those fools who thinks that FL 2000 wasn't stolen?
Look... BLACK HELICOPTERS!!!!!!
You're a total fool if you think that FL 2000 wasn't stolen. Do you really believe that Bush won it fair and square?

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Sure they tend not to endorse people like Arnold who call unions special intersts, but hey don't necessarily give the Democrats as good ratings as they give Boxer. These are national labor groups that rated her.

Any Democratic Senator that votes party line on certain issues will get 100% ratings from some Unions. Not impressive.

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What do you mean by party line? The Democratic party isn't organized enough to really have that be so meaningful. Do you support Democrats not voting party line on union issues? Why do you hate unions?

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Which wedge issues? Should we come out against Roe. vs Wade, even though 65% of Americans support it?

You know I think that coming out against unrestricted Abotion is something that most Americans would approve of.
Quite a lot of Democrats are against unrestricted Abortion. However, it didn't seem to hurt Boxer.

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Yeah, they're in the most extreme 65% of America.

NARAL does NOT represent 65% of America. NARAL want abortions on demand at any stage in the pregnancy. That is an extreme (and frankly quite sick) position. Most Americans do not share NARAL's views.

65% of Americans want Roe vs. Wade to be upheld. They fight for that 65%, not the wingnuts like you.
25823  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:19:35 pm
She wouldn't win because she is extreme.

She wouldn't win because Republicans have already demonized her and weak-knee'd Democrats like you buy into it and repeat the spin.

And again, you have no specific information to back up your claim of her being extreme. You just repeat right-wing spin over and over again.

Oh yeah, I'm a weak-kneed Democrat.  I'm a realist.  You're the one that's living a leftist fantasy.  This is not right-wing spin.  It's true that she is significantly farther to the left than most Americans.  Maybe you should pay a visit to the South or the MidWest instead of just believing stereotypes about it.  Seriously, the entire US is not like the northeast and California.  Just keep thinking that and we'll lose elections for the next 30 years too. 


We're not claiming that Boxer would be the most electable Presidential candidate. However, she has done quite well in CA. Al seems hopelessly confused about her, calling her both a far-left extremist and saying that she doesn't stand up for ordinary working class. Both of those are wrong.

I'm slightly more liberal economically than I am socially, so I appreciate her standing up for the working class.  But socially she's very liberal.  That's all I was saying.  Moderates like Al, Ben, and myself want to help the Democratic Party, but it's hard to do if we're labeled as weak-knee'd and accused of being brainwashed with right-wing spin.

Well, anyone who spends more time bashing liberals than Republicans deserves such a label. The question is where your priorities are.
25824  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:16:44 pm
lol, Scoonie is such a riot. Jfern just posted like five links giving her 100% ratings from liberal groups, and he insists there's no evidence she's extreme.

Oh yeah, 100% ratings from pro-labor, pro-education, pro-environment, pro-property rights, pro-Social Security, and pro-health care groups make her an extremist!! That actually makes her an exemplary Senator.

What kind of sick bast*rd do you have to be to oppose those issues?

"Pro" is vague. I think you mean she's pro-socialism, anti- school choice, pro- housing subsidies, against individual liberty, and pro-Hillarycare.

PRO-HILLARYCARE? OH NOES!!!!!
25825  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006 on: August 10, 2005, 03:15:58 pm
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Worry them so much that she gets high ratings from pro-labor groups and just won re-election in a landslide?

Break down by income

Boxer won > 15k 70-26
Boxer won 15-30k 69-28
Boxer won 30k-50k 61-35
Boxer won 50k-75k 55-42
Boxer won 75k-100k 56-43
Boxer won 100k-150k 60-40
Boxer lost 150k-200k 49-50
Boxer lost > 200k 39-58

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1. That was in California
2. Her opponant was even more extreme than she is...
1. Why are the needs of the CA working class so incredibly different from those elsewhere? If anything, they're greater in CA, due to a higher cost of living.
2. If he's so extreme right-wing then how did he get elected CA secretary of state in 1994 and 1998? He's really  to the left of Bush.



Explain what the difference between the left and loony left is, you reality-challenged fool.
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