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51  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 04:39:25 pm
I think Trump critics are playing this one wrong.

With the outrage, undecided voters aren't hearing that Trump is relying on a hostile power. They're hearing that Trump critics are afraid that there is stuff out there that is so bad and disgusting that it could cost Hillary Clinton the election.

No, I think you are wrong. It's the opposite.
They are hearing that trump would allow Russia an easy path to do whatever they want.
That trump would do nothing to help our allies, or nations neighboring Russia, that no longer want anything to do with "Mother Putin."
No. You're wrong. You're wrong. I win.
52  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Were you shocked by the size of TRUMP's convention bounce? on: July 27, 2016, 04:38:51 pm
Exactly what I expected. I'm sure the DNC bump will pretty much take us back to square one (consistent but also constantly weak Clinton lead).
53  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: So, did the Democrats fall into Trump's trap? on: July 27, 2016, 04:37:58 pm
The Republicans didn't nominate Pat Buchanan for President until 2016, see.
Yet they remained major portions of the base. It has been a boiling cauldron for years.

Lol, it seems like every time Trump makes an idiotic blunder, there's some hot take that he's actually playing 4 dimensional chess.  He isn't, he's just an idiot.

This.


For God's sake, he could win a 45 state landslide somehow and you'd still say he ran a terrible campaign. You can't even admit he's a worthy adversary when he's literally beating your candidate?
54  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Has internet cult libertarianism morphed into cult alt right conservatism? on: July 27, 2016, 04:32:16 pm
The internet-cult libertarian movement is basically the first post-internet generation following the Buchanan brigades. It is going back to basics; the only evolution I've noticed is a rise of more creepier characters like Milo and other nihilists interlopers.
55  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: What is the chance of an October surprise? on: July 27, 2016, 04:29:28 pm
A Putin-manufactured "surprise" to help his puppet Drumpf is very likely. Hopefully American patriots will see through it, though.
No, the patriots will join Putin in his cause to make the world great again!


You confuse habitually confuse patriots and traitors.
One mans traitor is another mans patriot.
It is very easy to distinguish. Those who want good for America are patriots. Those who want to destroy it are traitors. That, clearly makes you a traitor.
Ok. I just decided that you are bad for America, which, if you were American, would make you the traitor. Want to play this game? Really?
56  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: So, did the Democrats fall into Trump's trap? on: July 27, 2016, 04:27:23 pm
Lol, it seems like every time Trump makes an idiotic blunder, there's some hot take that he's actually playing 4 dimensional chess.  He isn't, he's just an idiot.
Ok. Go watch Rachel Maddow fawn over Bill Clinton and the "triangulation" strategy. This is basically the same thing in principle. It's basic politics, 101.
It really isn't.  This has nothing in common with triangulation.
Not literally, no. It does involve the strategic use of words to intentionally make big news out of nothing
That's not triangulation and I'm kind of baffled at how you're making this link.  Triangulation involves adopting certain aspects of your opponents platform, in an attempt to outflank them. 

While you could make the argument that Trump is attempting to do this with his minimum wage comments (even if the attempt was completely botched by his simultaneously taking on 3 positions at once),  unless you think that Clinton was somehow advocating for Russia to hack her opponents, these two things have nothing more in common than any other two random events in politics.

Quote
something that causes panic today but means nothing tomorrow. Something meant to rattle the easily rattled.

I made this point in another thread, but this comment is particularly dangerous for Trump precisely because you're completely wrong.  This isn't a stand alone comment, something random that won't be relevant in the future.  In fact, this feeds directly into a narrative that has been slowly building for weeks.

-Trump expresses admiration for Putin.
-Trump's only change to the GOP platform involves not disputing Russian claims in the Ukraine.
-The wikileaks email dump has suspicious ties to Russian intelligence, and has suspiciously convenient timing for the Trump campaign.
-Trump's comments about NATO.

Alone, you'd be right, all of these events would fade as the media moves on.  Unfortunately for Trump this isn't a standalone comment, this is the latest in a series of blunders that all build into each other and feed into this narrative.
I'm not saying this is triangulation. That is not the point I am expressing. What I mean is that this is the same underlying theory-you say something that has no meaning and allow others to fill that gap. That is nothing new in politics, and Trump is playing this card. This is cut from the same cloth as that theory.

Quote
-Trump expresses admiration for Putin.
Ok. I admire Bob Dylan but I don't think I'm ever gonna write a song with him.

Quote
-Trump's only change to the GOP platform involves not disputing Russian claims in the Ukraine.
Changing of the guards. The Crimea isn't changing hands and there is no reason to handicap our relationship with them over a crisis that the EU frankly created when they tried to box Russia out of their legitimate sphere of influence.

Quote
-The wikileaks email dump has suspicious ties to Russian intelligence, and has suspiciously convenient timing for the Trump campaign.
Yeah, and so were the "renovations" in the south tower weeks before 9/11 right? Roll Eyes

Quote
-Trump's comments about NATO.
What about them? They don't sound any different from Ron Paul or Pat Buchanan? This isn't new?
57  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: What is the chance of an October surprise? on: July 27, 2016, 04:10:23 pm
A Putin-manufactured "surprise" to help his puppet Drumpf is very likely. Hopefully American patriots will see through it, though.
No, the patriots will join Putin in his cause to make the world great again!


You confuse habitually confuse patriots and traitors.
One mans traitor is another mans patriot.
58  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: What is the chance of an October surprise? on: July 27, 2016, 04:06:02 pm
A Putin-manufactured "surprise" to help his puppet Drumpf is very likely. Hopefully American patriots will see through it, though.
No, the patriots will join Putin in his cause to make the world great again!
59  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 04:05:08 pm
Trump isn't joking.


He's now doubling-down on Twitter.
It's not that kind of a joke. It isn't just a random quip. He raises ideas for the reactions, which are always more severe among the media than they are among the audience.

I want to know why Putin can't interfere in our elections and Obama can go over and campaign for the Remain side in the Brexit? The same Obama who didn't attempt to undermine Netanyahu and Likud's campaign? Putin plays by the same rules that Obama does, he just has more balls.
60  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 03:59:44 pm
Painting Trump as some sort of Manchurian candidate sleeper agent is great fun in a hyperbolic just-between-us-leftists sort of way but bad strategy in terms of getting the average voter to believe that there's a problem here. Pointing out that Trump's inner circle is, for reasons still unknown, pushing him in an increasingly unapologetically pro-Russian policy direction that betrays America's treaty obligations, and that he's fundamentally unserious enough about American democratic processes to make this sort of joke (if it is a joke), is a bit of a harder sell in terms of sound-bite-ability, but is, hopefully, demonstrably true enough to stick if it can be sold effectively.
The problem is (not you, of course) that the left's capacity for snark and overconfidence is starting to measure levels similar to Fox News on election night '12. Calling Trump a traitor is downright insulting to the intelligence of voters.

There is sooo much juice on Trump to squeeze out, but instead of the tax returns, the threats to free press, free speech, etc, they just want to attack Trump for saying (actually just mouthing) the phrase "bomb the shinks out of 'em."
61  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: So, did the Democrats fall into Trump's trap? on: July 27, 2016, 03:56:05 pm
Lol, it seems like every time Trump makes an idiotic blunder, there's some hot take that he's actually playing 4 dimensional chess.  He isn't, he's just an idiot.
Ok. Go watch Rachel Maddow fawn over Bill Clinton and the "triangulation" strategy. This is basically the same thing in principle. It's basic politics, 101.
It really isn't.  This has nothing in common with triangulation.
Not literally, no. It does involve the strategic use of words to intentionally make big news out of nothing, something that causes panic today but means nothing tomorrow. Something meant to rattle the easily rattled.

You can deny all you want, but Trump is playing a hard game and you know it. If Trump was a Bob Katterish style populist Democrat, you'd be singing his praises. Not everyone on the other side is just an idiot screaming at traffic.
62  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Who will return first? on: July 27, 2016, 03:49:31 pm
Lyndon's been active more recently, so him. I don't understand all the hate he gets - he's not nearly as bad as jfern.
See, I find the opposite to be true. But that doesn't really make either a decent poster.
63  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 03:46:42 pm
What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?

I gave my rebut. Im not sure if your confusing me with someone though. I just know that you were being a complete jerk in the DNC thread and I put you on my ignore list. Sadly Oakvale quoted you.
No you didn't. Oakvale replied, and you just "nah, you're wrong" without even an explanation.

I'm not suggesting that he's in cahoots with Putin. But what's clear is that Putin is backing him

No, it really isn't.
Yeah, this conspiracy theory is the lame type of thing that Trump would trot out. Emailgate had more meat than this, and the FBI made a fair and reasoned judgement on that matter.
64  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 03:43:33 pm
What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?

This place has gone to hell. I don't exclude my own posts from this judgement.
Eh, it is 2016. The bad elements will purge themselves in 2017 because they only care about the horse race and a chance to express "lol Republicans are so dumb!" or "LOCK 'DER KILLARY UP" to a group of strangers instead of their monolithic group of Facebook zombies.
65  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 03:39:18 pm
What your missing is that Trump doesn't need to be labeled as a Kremlin agent. Russia is unpopular as is Putin. Trump is clearly showing that he holds pro-Russian views. Trump may have tapped into alot of hidden sentiments in America, but I guarantee you pro-Russian will not be one of them.

This would be a great bit of political strategy if we had any indication that swing voters believe the accusations when they hear them. But we do not. On the other hand, this has become another opportunity for Trump's shills to bring Clinton's private e-mail server back under national media coverage, and in yet another context in which Clinton's surrogates are almost forcibly maneuvered into talking about it in a way that sounds dismissive and deflective.

(Does this actually hurt Clinton? I'm inclined to think that it does, given how poorly polls show her scoring on trustworthiness and accountability. Who knows, really, but I'm confident that it is, at least, not helpful.)

Then I believe your being deliberately obtuse.
Instead of trying to make others shut up, try to rebut. Can you post something longer than a sentence that says "you are wrong, I am right" for once this week? You can't be this dense surely?
66  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: So, did the Democrats fall into Trump's trap? on: July 27, 2016, 03:36:58 pm
Lol, it seems like every time Trump makes an idiotic blunder, there's some hot take that he's actually playing 4 dimensional chess.  He isn't, he's just an idiot.
Ok. Go watch Rachel Maddow fawn over Bill Clinton and the "triangulation" strategy. This is basically the same thing in principle. It's basic politics, 101.
67  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: So, did the Democrats fall into Trump's trap? on: July 27, 2016, 03:21:17 pm
Undecided. I sometimes wonder that Trump fires out controversial comment after controversial comment as a means to desensitize the electorate to him while also indulging the hyper active campaign journalists in the latest scandal to fuel their fetish for a horse race.
68  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 03:19:07 pm
I can't help laughing at the Clintonites who seem to think that the Putin bit is an effective anti-Trump tactic. And maybe some of you are actually biased enough to believe that it is demonstrably true despite the oft-ignored reality that evidence for a connection, or even of more than negligible manipulation, remains weak.

Then I remember that these are the only folks standing between us and a Trump administration, and I feel very, very scared. It is amazing how detached these people are from the concerns of voters outside of their extended social circles of well-off, highly educated coastal professionals. Even if much of the movement that we've seen over the past week is a convention bump, the polls have steadily trended toward Trump since his mid-June nadir. There needs to be a better answer to this than half-baked conspiracies that reek of desperation.
You seem to underestimate how much foreign policy is important, it definitely is.
Again, most Americans don't necessarily like Russia but also don't necessarily give a damn about the Crimeans. They hear exactly what that last sentence decried as half baked conspiracy theories, and they think this: who care?

They do care about foreign policy, but they care of foreign policy that effects them. They care about ISIS, border security, TPP, NAFTA, Cuba, and so on.

Brexit? Nah. Crimea? Nope. The Central African Republic? What and where? The average voter isn't the average Atlas policy nerd who cares about the coup in Burgundi.
69  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Opinion of Donald Trump's convention speech? on: July 27, 2016, 03:11:19 pm
It is sad that Adam T has ventured into this discussion and keeps getting in the way. He was a lot more tolerable when he just made random lists of NDP parliamentary candidates with one line bio sentences in butchered grammatical form.

As to FuzzyBears post:

This is exactly correct. Every year, people are fed up. People are always pissed. When doesn't Congress have a low approval rating? Every election is "the most important of our lifetime." I heard it in 2008 and shrugged. I heard it in 2012 and I laughed out loud.

This election, to many Americans, and not just Trump supporters, is indeed the most important election. It is their America's last stand.

BRTD and company will of course celebrate this, as most millennials who are overly aware/absorbed with their mere existence as millennials welcome this incoming cultural slaughter. But those people in their fifties or sixties who lost it all in the bust and can't start over again-they fear it. And they are turning to people who they never, ever, ever expected to vote for.

Do you guys think they seriously want to vote for Trump? Do you think they want this orange skinned, loudmouthed, celebrity/publicity obsessed jackass from NBC whose only real experience is serving as the public face and the iron hand of a shadowy real estate conglomerate-do they really want him to be President? Of course not!

But they don't care. It's their last stand. Bush I betrayed them, and they fought back with the Buchanan brigades (the Trump supporters who have always been Republican and always followed politics to some degree or another at least). Dole didn't put up a fight, and neither did the party in 1996. The fix was in. Both parties knew who was going to be the president in January, 1997. In 2000, an election fought tooth and nail (but at least fought!) that literally divided the nation down to the decimal, resulted in the worst American presidency of the last fifty years. Bush II took the folksy rhetoric of compassionate conservatism and gave the people, inside of the Republican Party and out of it, a big cold platter of economic nihilism and international recklessness.

They have nothing left to lose, right? Or do they. I don't know. You don't know. They don't know.

Fourteen years ago, they feared terrorism in the country, and for good reason considering 9/11 had just occurred. Yet fourteen years went by under Bush and later Obama, where terrorism wasn't really a problem. Sure, some punk ass kids pretending to be Muslims blew up the Boston marathon and sure, Fort Hood was attacked. And yes, Americans were somewhat annoyed that these acts of terrorism were not condemned as what they were-acts of Islamic terrorism. But names are just symbols, and symbols, as George Carlin once said, are for the symbol minded. Up until this year, no one outside of the Fox News base really cared. Until now.

When have terrorist attacks increased so rapidly before? When have major cities been plagued by such unrest before? This unrest is something that many of the "silent majority" overall understand as FuzzyBear noted. Many are sympathetic, and many in fact know the grievances to be true. But then they see the rioting, the fire hoses being cut, the snipers shooting cops, the cities being burned down, the CVS being looted, and they lose that sympathy. And that has only furthered this "us verse them" mentality that permeates every aspect of our society. To these people, if things don't change, this will become the new normal. 

The highlight of this election is a real, genuine, and universal feeling of fear.

I don't think the Silent Majority is totally behind Trump. They may, might, and most likely will reject him in the end. But that is not a rejection of Trumpism, merely Trump. It is also a rejection of any sense of optimism. I often hear "we're doomed." I heard it when Obama won. I heard it when Bush won a second term. This time, people, at least those over 45 years old, utter those words with a sense of dejection and mournful acceptance. It is not the sarcastic, sneering political platitude of years past (and I'm sure again in years future) has been when side A loses to side B. They mean it, because the America that they once believed still worked for them no longer does. The American Dream is dying in front of their eyes.

But they also, and this is the most critical part of this post, realize that Hillary offers more of the same. The decision is, do these people want the same old same that has led to the industrial holocaust of America, the slow stagnation of the middle class, the unraveling of the Middle East, the increasing unrest at home, and growing racial, generational, class gaps that are causing this chasm in America?

Or do they say "fINKs it, lets burn this place to the ground!" That is the most interesting aspect of this election.

This is all anecdotal of course on the surface, but any number of polls can narrow down each separate paragraph. This is the grim reality that I'm hearing from Hillary supporters, Trump supporters, and in rare cases (I really only know a few Johnson supporters over 30) Johnson supporters. This election matters, and the question isn't Trump or Hillary as much as it is "are we ready to take a chance or can it really get any worse?"

70  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 02:09:14 pm
Treason over tweets is a good line until you realize this is over statements made to the press, not tweets. Is Trump not accountable for his own words?
But Trump treats the press like they are his Twitter followers, which is why they hate him.
71  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: So that dude who shot Reagan is out. on: July 27, 2016, 02:07:20 pm
I just sent a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" to his new address.
Will he return it signed? Tongue
72  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 01:35:15 pm
/headdesk

Talk of treason over tweets is so face-palmingly stupid it defies description. The whole "Trump is a Putin stooge" thing is playing right into his hands.

Does Trump have financial and other connections to Russia that look kind of shady? I don't know for certain, but I find it very easy to believe that he does. Using that as one nail in a Trump coffin leading up to the GE would be good strategy.

But responding to damaging emails with terrible optics that were leaked at a very damaging time for the Clinton campaign with screams of "traitor!" and pretending that Putin is a cheezy Roger Moore Bond villain is terrible strategy.

First, even if it were 100% true, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that its an attempt to distract attention away from the leaked DNC emails. Second, the evidence to support the ludicrous charges just isn't there, which makes the already-suspicious Trump-supporting or Trump-leaning voters think better of Trump and worse of Clinton. Also, it justifies similar behavior on the part of the Trumpers. (Do you want Trump & Co picking out "traitors"? I certainly don't.) And finally, it's an open invitation for Trump & Co to haul out the Clinton Foundation's dirty laundry front and center, and use it to simultaneously refute (not really, but that's how it'll play) the charges against Trump, AND paint Clinton as a corrupt tool of foreign powers.
This is actually the best post so far on the matter.
73  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Franklin Foer: the DNC hack is Watergate, but worse on: July 27, 2016, 11:11:07 am
So is the Cold War still over or is Putin still the next Hitler? The Democrats keep changing every four years, I can't keep up Tongue.

It's not like the GOP is any more consistent right now. Four years ago Romney was calling Russia our number one geopolitical threat and now we have the most pro-Russian candidate since Henry Wallace.
Well yes, because most Americans are pro-Russian.

Where are you getting this? Gallup says otherwise:


I'm speaking more in theory; they don't like Russia, because most grew up in Cold War America. Most Americans would have a very negative opinion of Libya too, even though Qaddaffi is gone. You don't have to like or trust Russia to know that we need to work with them.
74  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Franklin Foer: the DNC hack is Watergate, but worse on: July 27, 2016, 11:07:31 am
So is the Cold War still over or is Putin still the next Hitler? The Democrats keep changing every four years, I can't keep up Tongue.

It's not like the GOP is any more consistent right now. Four years ago Romney was calling Russia our number one geopolitical threat and now we have the most pro-Russian candidate since Henry Wallace.
Well yes, because most Americans are pro-Russian.

Whereas most Russians are anti-American. Passionately so. You really take "loving your enemies" a bit too far. I should say, in a Lindberghianly fashion.
I like Russia. I want detente. And I want them to keep the Crimea too. Just as long as they stay out of our hemisphere and the Pacific. Make of that what you will.
75  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Current Trump Press Conference: I hope Russia finds Hillary's emails on: July 27, 2016, 11:05:18 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-clinton-emails.html

Quote
Donald J. Trump said Wednesday that he hoped Russia had hacked Hillary Clintonís email, essentially sanctioning a foreign powerís cyberspying of a secretary of stateís correspondence

Ah I love the smell of light treason in the morning.
You have a warped definition of treason. He wishes that he could read them. Wishes. It's this thing called a Trump joke, and Trump makes a lot of them. Usually just rambling and throwing out ideas like these press conferences are board room brainstorming sessions.

I think joking about treason is a lot less serious than taking bribes from foreign governments, but whatevs, you're with her, and he's with us, so we'll just talk over each other until one side edges the other out by like 1%.
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