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15201  Election Archive / 2012 U.S. Presidential Primary Election Polls / Re: GA PrimR: Insider Advantage: Gingrich, Romney & Santorum could all win Georgia on: February 21, 2012, 09:48:27 pm
If Romney wins here, he's the nominee. I don't think he'll pay enough attention to it to pull it off though. I think if Santorum wins MI or AZ, he'll win here. If not, I think Gingrich may very well surge again and carry it easily (he probably has a pre-baked lead among early voters anyway).

Nope.  If the only other states Romney carries on Super Tuesday are Idaho, Massachusetts, Vermont and Virgina, the narrative of a Georgia win will be that he won here only because Gingrich took a large share of the anti-Romney vote away from Santorum.  Ohio is far more crucial to Romney's Super Tuesday hopes, and I expect Romney and Santorum to be in Ohio that night. Gingrich of course will be in Georgia that night, and who knows where Paul will be.
15202  Election Archive / 2012 U.S. Presidential Primary Election Polls / Re: Daily Gallup GOP Tracking Poll Thread on: February 21, 2012, 09:39:21 pm
Honestly, Gingrich needs to go hard after Santorum in the debate on Wednesday, rather than focus on Romney, which he'll probably try to do. The only way Gingrich can still win is if he completely deteriorates Santorum enough to once again by the "Anti-Romney" choice. He's not going to be able to make this a two-way race between himself and Santorum, try as he might.

Gingrich can't win.  All he can do right now is affect which of Romney and Santorum win.  So it's no surprise that a Romney supporter is saying he needs to attack Santorum, just as I hope he'll attack Romney.  Personally, I think Newt's focus will be on attacking the media again. Wink
15203  Election Archive / 2012 U.S. Presidential Primary Election Polls / Re: OK PrimR: SoonerPoll: Santorum far ahead in Oklahoma on: February 21, 2012, 09:33:13 pm
Far likelier that Santorum manages to get over 50% than Romney falls to third at this point:

Discounting the undecided gives:

Santorum:44%
Romney:26%
Gingrich:21%
Paul:9%

Indeed, if Rick can pull off the unlikely upset of Arizona, he likely will go over 50% here.

15204  Election Archive / 2012 U.S. Presidential Primary Election Polls / Re: AZ PrimR: Time/CNN/ORC: Basically a tossup on: February 21, 2012, 09:26:38 pm
The only way Rick wins this one is if Newt drops out after tomorrow's debate, which ain't gonna happen.
15205  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Santorum: Democrats are anti-science on: February 21, 2012, 09:21:47 pm
I suspect the increased acidity of the oceans does not warrant the introduction of a global carbon tax, especially given the ramifications upon international trade. How often do you hear about the problem of increased acidity of the oceans, anyway?

Fairly often, but then I get a good dose of  my news from public radio and none from cable tv since I don't pay for cable. There's not enough that I would want to watch on cable to worth the cost.  I can pull in tv signals from three different media markets with a decent antenna.  (Augusta, Columbia, and Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville)

Lastly, it would be absurd for us to implement a carbon tax if China does not agree to do likewise.

Depends on how high the tax is set and how the money is used.  In any case, a carbon tax will do less economic harm than cap-and-trade does for the same amount of carbon reduction.

It would need to be a global carbon tax, and is that possible? This is the biggest problem with throwing out these global "solutions": They just do not appear economically/politically feasible no matter how dire things become, so efforts need to be diverted elsewhere (e.g., technology to get CO2 out of the atmosphere and oceans). I am sure human ingenuity will find a way, especially in light of the technology advancements of the past century. I would say it is almost infinitely more likely that technology will solve the CO2 problem rather an international taxation scheme.

And who pays for this hypothetical technology when we get it?  You're saying that because it is too difficult to get people to pay for a solution that could be used now to do something, we'll wait until we have something else we can do, but still have the same difficulties in getting people to pay for it.

In the interim, the best thing America can do is start building nuclear plants again.

A carbon tax that makes fossil-fuel electricity more expensive certainly would induce the construction of more nuclear plants.  Right now, the higher construction costs of nuclear outweigh the lower operating costs of nuclear, so except for a few subsided units like the two being built at Plant Vogtle, they aren't going to be built.
15206  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: "Musicians ask Republican candidates to stop playing their songs" on: February 21, 2012, 09:11:45 pm
I'm surprised any campaign would be playing songs without permission from the artists.
They tend to think copyright laws apply only on the internet.
More likely the artists are no longer the rights holders.  Unlike Europe, U.S. copyright law does not generally recognize the concept of an inalienable moral right to determine how their songs are used. That makes using a song the artist doesn't want used by a political campaign a PR problem, not a copyright problem.
15207  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Santorum: Parents should run schools on: February 21, 2012, 09:03:00 pm
For the government to opt for atheism is as much an establishment of religion as the converse.

No. No. No.

Nothing is not something. Likewise, no religion is not a religion.

Fine. It's still a competing belief system.  Don't be so pedantic because the founding fathers had as much difficulty in imagining a belief system without religion as they did in imagining that we'd add a third military branch in addition to the army and navy.
15208  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Santorum: Democrats are anti-science on: February 21, 2012, 08:58:25 pm
I suspect the increased acidity of the oceans does not warrant the introduction of a global carbon tax, especially given the ramifications upon international trade. How often do you hear about the problem of increased acidity of the oceans, anyway?

Most people like to eat fish, and some people have to;

We can farm fish. Besides, if the problem is so dire that we might no longer be eating fish soon, I think we would be hearing about it more than we have heard about climate change. Of course this is not the case.

You do realize that fish farms generally feed their fish with fish meal made from fish we humans don't like?  Fish farming mainly serves to turn 2 or more pounds of fish we don't like into 1 pound of fish we do like.  The main problems aren't with fish themselves, tho they will be impacted, but on diatoms, shellfish, and corals.

Something to contemplate for folks who support cap-and-trade and/or a carbon tax: What if an international taxation scheme does not solve the problem, but also prevents some scientists/entrepreneurs from finding funding that would have otherwise created a technology that gets CO2 out of the atmosphere/oceans, solving the CO2 conundrum? One of those "what ifs" for you to chew on.

And what if once that technology is created because we weren't willing to pay for the best known methods of reducing CO2, we still aren't willing to pay for it?  After all, the future will have better and cheaper technology, won't it?  What you are suggesting is that we play a perpetual game of kick the can under the optimistic scenario that we'll be able to see when there is no more road in time for us to stop kicking.
15209  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Do we not have a Turkey avatar? on: February 21, 2012, 08:15:31 pm
Well you aren't missing it, since we don't have one.  Until we get a Turk (or a Greek looking for a job) who posts from Turkey, it's not really a priority, and there's always the little flag icons.
15210  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Which type of energy source would you prefer to see installed the most? on: February 21, 2012, 07:34:28 pm
Of the available options, wind is the one I like least.  There is a notable problem with the killing of birds and bats. The best places for generating wind power are generally far from where power is needed.  And last but not least, wind power is so unreliable that even when built, you still have to build the other generating capacity you would have built if you'd never built the windmill. Can be useful if used for applications where intermittent power is acceptable and in some remote high latitude locations where solar power is less reliable than wind for year-round power, but those are not common.
15211  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Should Andrew Jackson be celebrated on U.S. currency? on: February 21, 2012, 06:50:34 pm
Considering his fanatical opposition to the National Bank, he would consider his placement on paper currency as an insult.

Good insult.

Actually, if Andrew Jackson is to be on paper money, $20 is the most appropriate note for him to be on, as he expressed the view that it should be the smallest denomination of paper money.  Jackson was not opposed to paper money per se, just paper money displacing specie, and the largest denomination being minted at that time was the gold eagle worth $10.
15212  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: The Historicity of Jesus - The Spread of Christianity in the 1st Century on: February 21, 2012, 06:38:25 pm
The whole basis of your “perpetual” argument is shown to run contrary to the historical (~30AD) events and statements recorded in all 4 gospels, events that were 40 years PRIOR to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Nor did the veil wait until 70AD to be torn, rather it did so at the moment of Christ’s death:  Mat 26:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…Mark 15: 38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…Luke 23:45 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

Without God's presence in it, the Temple is just an ordinary building. That it took another four decades for the building to be destroyed is irrelevant.  The Temple was gone from the moment the curtain was rent.

As Strphen is reported tio have said before his stoning:
Quote from: Acts 7:48-50
48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

 49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
   and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
            says the Lord.
   Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’


the requirements of Jewish Christians changed at the death of Christ (~30AD), not at the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

You are placing an unwarranted emphasis on the physical building.  And certainly the early church did not say at first that the Law of Moses would be changed by Jesus  If it did, then why was it needful to produce false witnesses that Stephen had said that Jesus had said he would change the Law of Moses?  The non-Christian Jews could have produced true witnesses if that was the case and convicted him of blasphemy by the very gospel he spoke.

I find it ironic that you seem to think the lies the witnesses told about the first martyr were actually true.
15213  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: The Historicity of Jesus - The Spread of Christianity in the 1st Century on: February 21, 2012, 04:55:01 pm
Was Paul the only Apostle who traveled outside of Jerusalem?

Leaving aside that Paul's status as an apostle depends on how you define the term, no.  However Paul was definitely the most prominent of the Gentilizers, and the Jewish Revolts definitely tilted the tables in favor of the Gentilizers over the Judaizers and the Moderates, both because the latter two suffered disproportionate losses, but also it made being a Jew of any belief hazardous.

Final question:

If Jesus stated in John 4:21 that the Church Age would not include the requirement of any believer to worship in Jerusalem (which wipe outs many of the Law’s “perpetual” requirements from the Church Age)…why do you claim Jewish Christians are still required to obey the rest of the Law of Moses during the Church Age?

I've already covered this, but I'lllanswer it again for what I hope will be the final time.  I don't see the Messianic Covenant a a replacement for any of the covenants, but as an addition to the existing covenants.  Hence, for the observance of the Mosaic Law, the situation in the Church Age is analogous to that of the Babylonian Captivity. Jews are to follow the Law to the best of their ability to do so. To hold otherwise would imply that during the Babylonian Captivity the Jews then had no obligation to follow the Mosaic Law as best they could.
15214  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: The Historicity of Jesus - The Spread of Christianity in the 1st Century on: February 21, 2012, 02:08:18 pm
Also, don’t you find it a bit ironic that you have walked way way out on a limb, basically by yourself, opposing much of the NT and 99% of Christianity, yet you were caught off guard by the passages I referenced?

I haven't had the chance to study the minor prophets in detail.  I've focused my energies to date on the core portions of both the Old and New Testament, the Torah and the Gospels, as without them there can be no firm foundation.

So, just to be clear:  you are a Christian who rejects the arguments of the NT regarding the superseded of the Law of Moses, because you believe you know more than the early church authors of the NT about God’s intentions…yet you haven’t even read the entire bible, much less made a working model of what the bible says.

I've read the whole bible, I just haven't read it with the rigor I'm applying now so as to be able to better answer questions others have about my beliefs and so as to be more thorough in the details of my beliefs.  So far, what I have reexamined (not examined for the first time as you would have it) has confirmed my beliefs.  I would say that the most interesting thing I have gleaned so far from my more detailed reading is that the tabernacle layout has correspondences to the placement of the cherubim and flaming sword that guarded the east of Eden after the expulsion of Adam and Eve.  This indicates to me that the tabernacle layout was not created ex nihilo, but was based upon earlier arrangements not described in detail in the Bible.

What, exactly, started you down this path?  Did you just wake up one morning and decide, “Hey, even though I haven’t read the bible, I’m going to oppose the NT and invent a conspiracy to explain it”?

Would you knock off the conspiracy nonsense that you keep bringing up on your own?  I neither need nor use a conspiracy to explain why Pauline Christianity became the dominant form of Christianity.  That rise was a natural outcome of the devastation of the Judaic Christian communities as a byproduct of the Jewish Revolts.
15215  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: grade the preceding VP choice for Santorum2012 on: February 21, 2012, 12:00:37 am
D


The Terminator

Not eligible - the actor isn't native born, and the machine is 41 years too young.

David Petraeus
15216  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Santorum: Democrats are anti-science on: February 20, 2012, 11:49:33 pm
Problem solved if it exists, and the global economy is not destroyed in the process. Personally, I am supremely confident we will eventually have technology to get greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere. Short of a huge hit to the world's population soon (maybe a virus), it is the only way CO2 emissions will get back to pre-industrial levels within the next one hundred years.

Global warming is not the only potential problem from high CO2 levels.  The acidity of the oceans is increasing and the primary suspected culprit for that is CO2, tho not the other greenhouse gases IIRC.  That acidification is a problem for a number of organisms that make hard shells as it makes it more difficult to make them.

There's enough evidence that high CO2 levels are affecting the ecology that I think we need to deal with it, but not with the command-and-control bureaucratic boondoggle that is cap-and-trade.  A phased in carbon tax, with the tax revenues used to cut other taxes is the best option in my opinion.  A carbon tax provides the incentives to reduce carbon use in an easy to administer form, while phasing it in and using it to offset other taxes minimizes the economic impact of doing so.

Problem is the coal and petrochemical industries would be adversely affected so they lobby against a tax, preferring that a cap-and-trade system with a high cap be imposed, while industries that emit a lot of carbon are hoping to make a buck by gaming cap-and-trade, and I expect they will in a manner that does little to actually reduce carbon use.  Last but not least, there are the alternative energy folks who want the sure thing of government subsidies instead of taking a risk that a higher price on carbon encourages people to be more efficient in their energy use instead of switching to their subsidized product.

(Personal trivia.  Back when I last bought a car, 2000, I considered one of the VW diesel cars, but determined that even if I bought a VW, the added up front cost of the car was not worth the savings from having a more fuel-efficient vehicle.  Plus there was the fact that to have a diesel (in my price range at least) I'd have to buy a VW and that was unattractive for several reasons, not least of which was the distance to the nearest VW dealer was much more than that to a Toyota or Honda dealer.  Now if fuel prices had been considerably higher, I might have been tipped into buying diesel VW.
15217  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Santorum: Democrats are anti-science on: February 20, 2012, 10:02:40 pm
Keystone pipeline - Tar sand oil extraction is not an energy efficient way to get oil for one. Second the oil attained this way is very dirty and prone to causing more pollutants than other more traditional oil sources. So if it can be avoided (and I think it can be) it should be. So we really shouldn't be encouraging its use.

Problem is, stopping Keystone XL will not stop the development of the oil sands.  What it will do is make the transit of that oil to where it will ultimately be used be more expensive and energy intensive, thereby actually contributing to that global warming the NIMBY environmentalists claim they are trying to stop by blocking it.
15218  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Santorum: Parents should run schools on: February 20, 2012, 09:31:42 pm
Separation of church and state. Look it up, it's in that Constitution you love to talk about.

That's actually a point that can be used in favor of vouchers.  By allowing the decision of the type and quantity of religious content, a child receives in their schooling to be up to the parent through their choice of school, there is no Constitutional bar.  As it is now, the public schools are skewed in favor of the viewpoint that religion is unimportant.
15219  Election Archive / 2012 Elections / Re: Obama and the race card on: February 20, 2012, 09:25:26 pm
er, this one isn't so much a horse disease as much as it is an undead horse.

So I guess that would make it a horse of a different color.
15220  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: The impact of evolutionary theory on philosophy on: February 20, 2012, 08:36:27 pm
I think you protest too much Dibble. The story of Jacob and Laban in Genesis clearly shows that there was a basic understanding of genetic selection well before Darwin. It wasn't until around 1800 that the theory of spontaneous generation was generally considered discredited for higher organism. There were ancient Greeks who put forth theories of evolution, such as Anaximander and Empedocles who espoused the mutability of the species.

However, Western philosophy decided to follow Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates, who held the idea of immutable species and it wasn't until the Renaissance that the west began to unshackle itself from Plato.

It is true that Darwin is generally acknowledged as the first to link the concepts of evolution and natural selection and for that he deserves credit, but I think that even if had never lived, the theory of evolution via natural selection would still have been proposed in the mid 19th-century.
15221  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: The Historicity of Jesus - The Spread of Christianity in the 1st Century on: February 20, 2012, 08:00:22 pm
It’s as if you are a purposely hundreds of miles away from civilization, claiming you know exactly where you are…then along comes some random hiker who points out that you have your map upside down and you respond, “Oh, thanks, I never noticed that…but I can assure you, I still know where I am!”

Well the choice of which direction on a map is up is fairly arbitrary, and even now is North is not always on top.  Indeed, for a map of a hiking trail, which direction is up generally depends on which direction you are following the trail.  Since a random hiker encountered on such a trail is more likely going in the opposite direction, I wouldn't be surprised that said hiker thinks my map is upside down, since for him it would be.
15222  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: On the Issues.org Quiz on: February 20, 2012, 07:26:14 pm
Personal Score    58%    
Economic Score    54%
Moderate Libertarian Liberal
15223  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: The Historicity of Jesus - The Spread of Christianity in the 1st Century on: February 20, 2012, 07:14:59 pm
Zech has the GENTILES coming to Jerusalem and celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles AFTER the Church Age…yet you say the Jews, and only the Jews, are suppose to keep those feasts DURING the Church Age, when that is both physically (there is no Temple) and theologically (the veil has been torn from the onset of the Church Age) impossible.

No, not during the present time, since we are in a temple interregnum, as has happened before.

By your argument, the need to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles ended with the destruction of the First Temple, since they were impossible, and yet they resumed.  We are in a temple interregnum and we do not and will not know when the interregnum shall end and the feasts called for in the Mosaic covenant shall resume.

Also, don’t you find it a bit ironic that you have walked way way out on a limb, basically by yourself, opposing much of the NT and 99% of Christianity, yet you were caught off guard by the passages I referenced?

I haven't had the chance to study the minor prophets in detail.  I've focused my energies to date on the core portions of both the Old and New Testament, the Torah and the Gospels, as without them there can be no firm foundation.  I'll get to the superstructure when I have time.  Our conversations here caused me to start a careful review of the Bible so as to put my beliefs into better definition, starting with Genesis, but in the past few months I've only gotten as far as Leviticus.  It's tempting to just bypass the temple rituals as they aren't something I expect will resume in my lifetime (tho I could be wrong), but I'm giving it all the same level of detail that I did the the earlier parts that were more interesting to me.
15224  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Abortion on: February 20, 2012, 06:48:44 pm
I do not believe that a fetus has absolutely any rights, at all.  Since the concept of rights is based on man's nature, they're only given to fully formed and biologically independent beings.  A fetus is a potential person whose very tangible existence depends on the direct physical nourishment of an individual, so ultimately the woman is left with the moral choice because she retains ownership of her own body.  

The problem with that line of reasoning is that it can lead to atrocities such such as the Nazi Aktion T4.  (Can, not necessarily will.)

Not at all.  Hitler murdered fully formed patients because of their physical illnesses, not physical state of being.  In other words, he murdered people who were already born.  Genocide and abortion are two very different things.

So if Hitler had simply left to starve because they were unable to care for themselves, that would have been okay with you?  A large proportion of those killed by T4 were not capable of caring for themselves and thus were not as you put it, "biologically independent".  Also, get your terms right.  T4 was not genocide but eugenics taken to a logical extreme.
15225  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Who is more devoted to their candidate? on: February 20, 2012, 06:40:54 pm
Phil's constancy to Rick shows him to be more devoted despite the intensity of Politico's current passion.  If Mitt loses, Politico will find a new favorite to devote himself to instead of waiting patiently for the return of his love from the political graveyard.  If Rick loses, Phil will be talking about this year having been good preparation for 2016.
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