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1  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Recent bans on: Today at 04:35:25 am
It's just important to point out Eharding has a campaign going in Atlasia and if it doesn't hurt anyone he should be permitted to post stuff as part of that campaign.

Reminds of when Jedi and Gustaf were deleting all of Hamilton's posts on sight, including posts in the NE Assembly.



I did that? Man, I've really gone soft. Tongue
2  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Greatest I am on: March 26, 2017, 11:13:43 am
Eh...

"I, as a man without honor, who has inadvertently fallen in love with my neighborís really young daughter, I think I will ponder how to buy her to free her for my honor.

 

If I am lucky, my brother next door is the type of good Muslim who will sell me his daughter. I hope I can afford her.

 

If not, maybe I will load my rifle."
3  General Politics / Book Reviews and Discussion / Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? on: March 22, 2017, 12:56:34 pm
I'm reading the Neapolitan books by Elena Ferrante.
4  General Politics / Political Debate / Re: Was Hillary Clinton always unelectable nationally? on: March 22, 2017, 12:53:19 pm
Come on. She was a) extremely close to winning the nomination in 2008 and would obviously have won that general election and b) was very close to winning last year.

And she was an incredibly popular SoS. With hindsight a lot of these decisions are easy to make but I think it's weird to call it a huge blunder just based on that hindsight.
5  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: Have you ever been the victim of a crime? on: March 22, 2017, 12:31:42 pm
Yup. I've had things stolen from me and I've been knocked unconscious by a punch in the face once.
6  General Politics / Individual Politics / Re: Opinion of redistribution of income/wealth on: March 22, 2017, 12:26:36 pm
The nature of capitalism is to redistribute wealth/income upwards. The whole model is based on the idea that you only have a job if the value of your labour exceeds the cost of it; if you are paid less than you produce for your employer.

So really, the only morally acceptable solution to this is a redistribution of income so that workers incomes can approach the value of the wealth that they generate for owners.

what
7  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Recent bans on: March 22, 2017, 09:47:49 am
So if the two of them continue to offend as they were, will they be given permanent bans? Is there a strike system?

There is no longer an exact strike system because when one existed it led to uproar over moderator fascism. Tongue

But, yes, the point of a warning is to imply that unless behaviour improves they would eventually be banned.
8  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Recent bans on: March 20, 2017, 01:45:45 pm
I think people have a very shallow understanding of how moderation (for good reasons) happen.

Most of us don't read most posts. That is, most of us read a very, very tiny fraction of all posts. This is why a lot of people get by without being banned, because most moderators aren't accessing all information. This is also why there are always people shouting angrily on this board about "how can you ban poster X and let poster Y run freely!" Usually when that happens I have no idea who poster Y is or what their offence is. When for whatever reason someone becomes a focal point it often emerges that they should have been banned long ago. This was a case like that.

Now, let's keep in mind that this is a 7 day ban. That's a really short time. As such, it can be considered a warning. The melodrama people create over a 7 day ban is pretty over the top.

A separate issue is whether you think freedom of speech should allow posters on Dave's forum to advocate rape. You might of course think so. I'm sure other forums like AAD can accommodate that sort of thing. If Dave doesn't want it he's entitled to not have it. If you can't bear to be without comments about how rape victims are sluts who have it coming, well, the internet is a big place. There are plenty of forums where you can satisfy that urge and get to "engage intellectually" with those people. There is an odd obsession with some Atlas posters that Atlas Forum should serve all their needs, whether it be porn or defending rape but I never really understood that.
9  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: I'm a master's student in theology. AMA. on: March 13, 2017, 06:04:53 am
I've moderated a nr of posts by Greatest I am in this thread. This is just a note that people ought not troll other peoples' sincere threads with random ranting.
10  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: On a scale of 1-10, rate your social skills? on: March 04, 2017, 06:25:34 am
I used to think of myself as awful but people around me have gradually convinced me otherwise.
11  Atlas Fantasy Elections / Atlas Fantasy Government / Re: The Reagan Building: The Department of State on: March 04, 2017, 06:18:23 am
Since this thread has been inactive for a year I assume I should unsticky it no?
12  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Does anybody agree with these moderating decisions? on: February 27, 2017, 08:18:15 am
So, Eharding is complaining that his post advocating the dismantling of the First Amendment was censored?

lol
13  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Breitbart: Riots erupt in Sweden's capital just days after Trump comments on: February 21, 2017, 11:40:08 am
The police firing with intention to hit is pretty unusual in Sweden but these types of incidents with gangs threatening and attacking police in immigrant areas happens fairly often.

Trump's a buffoon obviously, but there are certainly issues with immigration and integration in Sweden.
14  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Rioting in France! on: February 20, 2017, 06:41:49 pm
     Given the disaster of the Hollande administration, the current weak state of LR, and the ongoing problems with the European Union, it's no surprise that the far-right has become quite powerful in France. I would caution against underestimating Le Pen.

This could be a real opportunity for Hollande. If he really orders the police to go in heavy and start cracking heads, he could have a 9/11-style rally effect and boost the center-left. But like most center-leftists, he is an idiot will probably do nothing and hand the country over to Le Pen.

     French police are not American police. It would be hugely out-of-character for them to behave in such a fashion and violently crack down on rioters.

Are you joking or are you this unaware of French police?
15  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 15, 2017, 11:27:03 am
I don't spend time campaigning to have people I dislike banned. Given that users immediately divided into polarized camps on the dude I guess moderators might do the same.

But it seems I was correct - Santander seems well liked enough for supporting genocide.
16  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 15, 2017, 11:23:55 am
What I consider to be curious is that some people are willing to accept Beet's explanation that this was just a temper tantrum whereas ag has engaged in similar abusive behavior time and again since Brexit, when he lost all sanity. Especially for a moderator, telling someone to go kill themselves is not acceptable behavior. This is not relative to what Santander said. His behavior is obviously bad but irrelevant in this case. It's not "more okay" if someone says nasty things. Just rebuke it or report it. But telling someone to go kill themselves is a line you just don't cross.

I must add that I find it particularly interesting that Gustaf would trivialize this, since he has firsthand experience in being at the receiving end of unpleasant remarks like that (albeit of a different type); I certainly don't recall you being as cool back then as you are now. Dismissing people's shock over ag's comments as "pearl clutching" is also a little bit cheap. I have personally dealt with cases of suicide attempts by friends and trying to keep them from doing so too often not to be abhorred by ag's behavior.

I'm not sure what remarks you're referring to - I've taken a lot of abuse on the forum but I don't think I've had particularly strong reactions to it.

And I too have firsthand knowledge of suicide attempts - as I said I agree it was wrong. I'm just noting that the level of forum outrage varies in ways that I think have little to do with genuine concern. Had a more popular poster been provoked that way and snapped back I suspect a lot of people would have been a lot less concerned. Or, if the victim had been less popular. For example, hardly anyone was very outraged any of the times I received threats from posters because they don't particularly like me. That's the aspect of it that I find a bit pearl-clutchy.
17  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2020 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Hillary Is Running -Anymore proof needed to confirm Politico as tabloid garbage? on: February 14, 2017, 01:42:51 pm
That seems utterly bizarre as an idea.
18  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 14, 2017, 05:46:42 am

"Saying that it's offensive to state that Jews are a cancer on society is really offensive to those forum members who suffer from cancer"

It's dumb because most people who suffer from mental illnesses aren't proud and happy about it. Mental illness acceptance is about not judging a person completely or make ridiculous inferences about them based on the one aspect of their being that is mental illness. It isn't to pretend as if crippling depression or schizophrenia isn't a bad thing. And I find it hard to buy that anyone would think competently about it for more than say 30 seconds and not immediately see this so it struck me as an attempt to be clever about something to score a cheap point. As someone who has dealt with and has been close to many people who deal with mental illness I found it to not be an act worthy of a very respectful answer. So I, admittedly, didn't give a very respectful answer.

That's an absurd analogy. Saying someone is a cancer and saying someone has cancer are not the same thing.  And everything else you said also seems to rely on this same inability to make a distinction between the person and the illness.

If someone is offended when they are told that something is a mental illness which is an aspect of themselves or their experience, I don't blame them for feeling that way. But that's a subjective response, and doesn't automatically make the statement about it being a mental illness hateful or degrading of their value as a person. If you think it does, then yes, it does sound to me like you are saying something about what you think of those with mental illness.

I'm not sure why you think that distinction is so important here? You can rephrase it to Jewishness if you think that matters and have the same point.

Again, mental illness is a bad thing. Particularly to people who have it. Thus, labeling something as a mental illness is degrading to that especially as, if you say, it's important to your identity. I mean, to be honest, it sounds from what you're saying here that you kind of know this so it seems like a bit of an unnecessary argument. If I recall correctly who you are you're one of the people who really dislikes feminists, etc so I do think you were trying to score a gotcha point that doesn't sound very convincing in your own ears either. That's not the biggest crime ever so I guess my language was a bit overly harsh (I had just gotten home and was still drunk Tongue ). So, I'm sorry about the unnecessary harshness but I stand by the substance of my point.

What isn't convincing to my ears is saying certain things are mental illnesses is personally degrading, but saying other things are isn't, because politics. 

What examples do you have of me not thinking calling something a mental illness is personally degrading? Or what are you referring to here?
19  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 14, 2017, 05:44:22 am
Yeah, I agree with Beet that I think it's curious that people are so willing to accept that piece of trash Santander for his comment, rejoicing in the death of AG's family and yet are so pearl-clutching about his reaction.

That isn't to condone references to suicide which I agree are generally inappropriate, but I suspect Santander will be able to continue to be an accepted member of the forum community.
20  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 12, 2017, 01:33:11 pm
I hope you'll reconsider though I think the reaction is pretty understandable.

21  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 12, 2017, 09:08:12 am

"Saying that it's offensive to state that Jews are a cancer on society is really offensive to those forum members who suffer from cancer"

It's dumb because most people who suffer from mental illnesses aren't proud and happy about it. Mental illness acceptance is about not judging a person completely or make ridiculous inferences about them based on the one aspect of their being that is mental illness. It isn't to pretend as if crippling depression or schizophrenia isn't a bad thing. And I find it hard to buy that anyone would think competently about it for more than say 30 seconds and not immediately see this so it struck me as an attempt to be clever about something to score a cheap point. As someone who has dealt with and has been close to many people who deal with mental illness I found it to not be an act worthy of a very respectful answer. So I, admittedly, didn't give a very respectful answer.

That's an absurd analogy. Saying someone is a cancer and saying someone has cancer are not the same thing.  And everything else you said also seems to rely on this same inability to make a distinction between the person and the illness.

If someone is offended when they are told that something is a mental illness which is an aspect of themselves or their experience, I don't blame them for feeling that way. But that's a subjective response, and doesn't automatically make the statement about it being a mental illness hateful or degrading of their value as a person. If you think it does, then yes, it does sound to me like you are saying something about what you think of those with mental illness.

I'm not sure why you think that distinction is so important here? You can rephrase it to Jewishness if you think that matters and have the same point.

Again, mental illness is a bad thing. Particularly to people who have it. Thus, labeling something as a mental illness is degrading to that especially as, if you say, it's important to your identity. I mean, to be honest, it sounds from what you're saying here that you kind of know this so it seems like a bit of an unnecessary argument. If I recall correctly who you are you're one of the people who really dislikes feminists, etc so I do think you were trying to score a gotcha point that doesn't sound very convincing in your own ears either. That's not the biggest crime ever so I guess my language was a bit overly harsh (I had just gotten home and was still drunk Tongue ). So, I'm sorry about the unnecessary harshness but I stand by the substance of my point.
22  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 11, 2017, 12:58:39 pm
I'm one of the most hateful posters on Atlas? Who do you think I hate so much? I mean, yes, I'm going to be disdainful to someone who mocks trans people to be edgy, but I'm not sure that qualifies as hateful.

I'm really not sure if you can credibly argue that my harsh disagreements with some peoples' views means that you're entitled to harshly disagree with mine. Tongue Especially since I'm not part of the "West Virginia coal miners are horrible racists" bandwagon on here. And I've generally refrained from mocking the less mentally capable posters we've had on here. The people I go after are usually people I perceive not as less intelligent or educated than me but as having bad views or character.

The ratio of disdain to thoughtfulness in your posts is a bit much. Sniping at morons is praiseworthy, even necessary as a kind of informal policing, but when someone rarely does anything else I begin to wonder why he or she is here in the first place. The sniping is pointless unless there is a thoughtful and interesting discussion to protect from idiotic intrusions, isn't it? It's not as if calling someone awful is likely to call them to some moral or intellectual awakening on its own.

I also thought that your comment on Shua's post was excessively nasty toward someone who generally tries pretty hard to be honest, thoughtful, and moral.

Point taken, though, and I apologize. I wanted to make a point about Hagrid's hatefulness - which at points rises to the level of honest-to-God hate speech, although for better or for worse much of the worst of it has been deleted - and I unfairly grouped you into it out of general irritation.

Well, I find most of the time thoughtfulness has a pretty low pay-off on here. Most people aren't sufficiently interested in listening and I have plenty of intellectual exchange in real life. In areas where I can give informative input most people aren't interested in or even able to offer much discourse to me and in areas where other people do know a lot here I usually don't have much to add of value to them. I read quite a lot of interesting things here that I learn from but I usually don't comment much in those instances. Very often I don't feel that I have anything particularly interesting to add - in this case, most of the basic points on trans issues and "freedom of speech" had already been made.

The disdain is more a form of social control (of the fact advocated in this very thread). I think it's an extremely low bar of moral obligation to call people out on the internet when they state awful views so it's something I try to live up to. I think this does serve a purpose even if it doesn't change the mind of the other person - it signals to other people reading it what is considered acceptable discourse and what isn't. And it can hopefully help empower anyone targeted by their hate speech to see that other people disapprove of it.

-----------------------------

I had to go back and check - hadn't realized it was Shua I was responding to. I was reading through the entire thread and replying as I went along so didn't really pay attention to who said what. I've seen this in a couple of cases lately (often from the "SJW" crowd, in fact) and it just annoys me. I don't know enough about Shua to judge him as a person - but I have a hard time imagining an intelligent person making that statement in good faith. I mean, let me give an analogy

"Saying that it's offensive to state that Jews are a cancer on society is really offensive to those forum members who suffer from cancer"

It's dumb because most people who suffer from mental illnesses aren't proud and happy about it. Mental illness acceptance is about not judging a person completely or make ridiculous inferences about them based on the one aspect of their being that is mental illness. It isn't to pretend as if crippling depression or schizophrenia isn't a bad thing. And I find it hard to buy that anyone would think competently about it for more than say 30 seconds and not immediately see this so it struck me as an attempt to be clever about something to score a cheap point. As someone who has dealt with and has been close to many people who deal with mental illness I found it to not be an act worthy of a very respectful answer. So I, admittedly, didn't give a very respectful answer.
23  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: The Sam Spade Memorial Good Post Gallery on: February 11, 2017, 11:26:04 am
There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

No one "understands" economics. I almost have my PhD in it, and I certainly don't "understand" it. People with Bachelors in econ don't "understand" it. People who've taken a couple courses certainly don't understand it. Economics is fickle, counterintuitive, caveat-riddled, vast, amorphous, and often inscrutable. Trying to understand economics is a hopelessly Sisyphean endeavor; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

-Mostly true.

no
24  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 11, 2017, 10:59:22 am
Also, please, the claim that the claim that "calling someone's gender orientation a mental illness is offensive" is offensive to people who are mentally ill is not clever. It doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look like a person who is trying really hard to look clever and failing ever harder at it. Think about your claim for a couple of minutes, swallow your embarrassment and don't repeat it again.

The attitudes displayed in Gustaf and Hagrid's posts are great examples of why it's worth speaking up about this. They are two of the most hateful regular posters here.

If you want an inclusive community, if you want to acknowledge the human dignity of every person, and if you want to enforce norms of basic respect, don't be hateful yourself. Even toward groups of people whom you believe deserve it. I'm not just talking about respect for speech that you dislike or find offensive, I'm also talking about how you discuss certain groups of people.

Bring on the scoffing and disdainful replies that give away just how thoroughly they don't get it. To put it in their preferred language, check your class privilege. That's hardly the only form of oppression that matters, although I'm sure that you'll claim against all evidence that that is what I really believe, but on an online forum in which status and recognition are most heavily influenced by verbal intelligence and access to education, it's a form of privilege that matters even more than it does in settings where other aspects of your identity are more salient whether you want them to be or not.

Extreme Republican is about as far from my definition of a good poster as it's possible to get. He was even on my ignore list when he created this thread. I have never seen any use or anything to be learned from engaging with him. The only reason that I even read his post was because it was had become an object of derision on AAD.

I'm one of the most hateful posters on Atlas? Who do you think I hate so much? I mean, yes, I'm going to be disdainful to someone who mocks trans people to be edgy, but I'm not sure that qualifies as hateful.

I'm really not sure if you can credibly argue that my harsh disagreements with some peoples' views means that you're entitled to harshly disagree with mine. Tongue Especially since I'm not part of the "West Virginia coal miners are horrible racists" bandwagon on here. And I've generally refrained from mocking the less mentally capable posters we've had on here. The people I go after are usually people I perceive not as less intelligent or educated than me but as having bad views or character.
25  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 11, 2017, 10:51:00 am
I am transracial.

Shut up. That's about as diplomatic and measured I can be with your BS.

-------------

Also, please, the claim that the claim that "calling someone's gender orientation a mental illness is offensive" is offensive to people who are mentally ill is not clever. It doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look like a person who is trying really hard to look clever and failing ever harder at it. Think about your claim for a couple of minutes, swallow your embarrassment and don't repeat it again.

Is it ever possible for you to make a point that doesn't rely entirely on your assumption of  being the moral standard that everyone else is supposed to just bow down to for some reason?

I've no idea what you're talking about. Not only do I not consider myself a "moral standard for others to bow down to" (though I obviously do not hold any moral views I consider to be inferior because at that point I'd just change them) but I also wasn't making much of a moral claim in that post. I just told Santander off for his bigoted BS and noted that the tedious habit of making clever points about mental illness is tedious. Neither of those points require me to be a moral actor.
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