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1  General Politics / International General Discussion / Re: Rioting in France! on: February 20, 2017, 06:41:49 pm
     Given the disaster of the Hollande administration, the current weak state of LR, and the ongoing problems with the European Union, it's no surprise that the far-right has become quite powerful in France. I would caution against underestimating Le Pen.

This could be a real opportunity for Hollande. If he really orders the police to go in heavy and start cracking heads, he could have a 9/11-style rally effect and boost the center-left. But like most center-leftists, he is an idiot will probably do nothing and hand the country over to Le Pen.

     French police are not American police. It would be hugely out-of-character for them to behave in such a fashion and violently crack down on rioters.

Are you joking or are you this unaware of French police?
2  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 15, 2017, 11:27:03 am
I don't spend time campaigning to have people I dislike banned. Given that users immediately divided into polarized camps on the dude I guess moderators might do the same.

But it seems I was correct - Santander seems well liked enough for supporting genocide.
3  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 15, 2017, 11:23:55 am
What I consider to be curious is that some people are willing to accept Beet's explanation that this was just a temper tantrum whereas ag has engaged in similar abusive behavior time and again since Brexit, when he lost all sanity. Especially for a moderator, telling someone to go kill themselves is not acceptable behavior. This is not relative to what Santander said. His behavior is obviously bad but irrelevant in this case. It's not "more okay" if someone says nasty things. Just rebuke it or report it. But telling someone to go kill themselves is a line you just don't cross.

I must add that I find it particularly interesting that Gustaf would trivialize this, since he has firsthand experience in being at the receiving end of unpleasant remarks like that (albeit of a different type); I certainly don't recall you being as cool back then as you are now. Dismissing people's shock over ag's comments as "pearl clutching" is also a little bit cheap. I have personally dealt with cases of suicide attempts by friends and trying to keep them from doing so too often not to be abhorred by ag's behavior.

I'm not sure what remarks you're referring to - I've taken a lot of abuse on the forum but I don't think I've had particularly strong reactions to it.

And I too have firsthand knowledge of suicide attempts - as I said I agree it was wrong. I'm just noting that the level of forum outrage varies in ways that I think have little to do with genuine concern. Had a more popular poster been provoked that way and snapped back I suspect a lot of people would have been a lot less concerned. Or, if the victim had been less popular. For example, hardly anyone was very outraged any of the times I received threats from posters because they don't particularly like me. That's the aspect of it that I find a bit pearl-clutchy.
4  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2020 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Hillary Is Running -Anymore proof needed to confirm Politico as tabloid garbage? on: February 14, 2017, 01:42:51 pm
That seems utterly bizarre as an idea.
5  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 14, 2017, 05:46:42 am

"Saying that it's offensive to state that Jews are a cancer on society is really offensive to those forum members who suffer from cancer"

It's dumb because most people who suffer from mental illnesses aren't proud and happy about it. Mental illness acceptance is about not judging a person completely or make ridiculous inferences about them based on the one aspect of their being that is mental illness. It isn't to pretend as if crippling depression or schizophrenia isn't a bad thing. And I find it hard to buy that anyone would think competently about it for more than say 30 seconds and not immediately see this so it struck me as an attempt to be clever about something to score a cheap point. As someone who has dealt with and has been close to many people who deal with mental illness I found it to not be an act worthy of a very respectful answer. So I, admittedly, didn't give a very respectful answer.

That's an absurd analogy. Saying someone is a cancer and saying someone has cancer are not the same thing.  And everything else you said also seems to rely on this same inability to make a distinction between the person and the illness.

If someone is offended when they are told that something is a mental illness which is an aspect of themselves or their experience, I don't blame them for feeling that way. But that's a subjective response, and doesn't automatically make the statement about it being a mental illness hateful or degrading of their value as a person. If you think it does, then yes, it does sound to me like you are saying something about what you think of those with mental illness.

I'm not sure why you think that distinction is so important here? You can rephrase it to Jewishness if you think that matters and have the same point.

Again, mental illness is a bad thing. Particularly to people who have it. Thus, labeling something as a mental illness is degrading to that especially as, if you say, it's important to your identity. I mean, to be honest, it sounds from what you're saying here that you kind of know this so it seems like a bit of an unnecessary argument. If I recall correctly who you are you're one of the people who really dislikes feminists, etc so I do think you were trying to score a gotcha point that doesn't sound very convincing in your own ears either. That's not the biggest crime ever so I guess my language was a bit overly harsh (I had just gotten home and was still drunk Tongue ). So, I'm sorry about the unnecessary harshness but I stand by the substance of my point.

What isn't convincing to my ears is saying certain things are mental illnesses is personally degrading, but saying other things are isn't, because politics. 

What examples do you have of me not thinking calling something a mental illness is personally degrading? Or what are you referring to here?
6  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 14, 2017, 05:44:22 am
Yeah, I agree with Beet that I think it's curious that people are so willing to accept that piece of trash Santander for his comment, rejoicing in the death of AG's family and yet are so pearl-clutching about his reaction.

That isn't to condone references to suicide which I agree are generally inappropriate, but I suspect Santander will be able to continue to be an accepted member of the forum community.
7  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Farewell on: February 12, 2017, 01:33:11 pm
I hope you'll reconsider though I think the reaction is pretty understandable.

8  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 12, 2017, 09:08:12 am

"Saying that it's offensive to state that Jews are a cancer on society is really offensive to those forum members who suffer from cancer"

It's dumb because most people who suffer from mental illnesses aren't proud and happy about it. Mental illness acceptance is about not judging a person completely or make ridiculous inferences about them based on the one aspect of their being that is mental illness. It isn't to pretend as if crippling depression or schizophrenia isn't a bad thing. And I find it hard to buy that anyone would think competently about it for more than say 30 seconds and not immediately see this so it struck me as an attempt to be clever about something to score a cheap point. As someone who has dealt with and has been close to many people who deal with mental illness I found it to not be an act worthy of a very respectful answer. So I, admittedly, didn't give a very respectful answer.

That's an absurd analogy. Saying someone is a cancer and saying someone has cancer are not the same thing.  And everything else you said also seems to rely on this same inability to make a distinction between the person and the illness.

If someone is offended when they are told that something is a mental illness which is an aspect of themselves or their experience, I don't blame them for feeling that way. But that's a subjective response, and doesn't automatically make the statement about it being a mental illness hateful or degrading of their value as a person. If you think it does, then yes, it does sound to me like you are saying something about what you think of those with mental illness.

I'm not sure why you think that distinction is so important here? You can rephrase it to Jewishness if you think that matters and have the same point.

Again, mental illness is a bad thing. Particularly to people who have it. Thus, labeling something as a mental illness is degrading to that especially as, if you say, it's important to your identity. I mean, to be honest, it sounds from what you're saying here that you kind of know this so it seems like a bit of an unnecessary argument. If I recall correctly who you are you're one of the people who really dislikes feminists, etc so I do think you were trying to score a gotcha point that doesn't sound very convincing in your own ears either. That's not the biggest crime ever so I guess my language was a bit overly harsh (I had just gotten home and was still drunk Tongue ). So, I'm sorry about the unnecessary harshness but I stand by the substance of my point.
9  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 11, 2017, 12:58:39 pm
I'm one of the most hateful posters on Atlas? Who do you think I hate so much? I mean, yes, I'm going to be disdainful to someone who mocks trans people to be edgy, but I'm not sure that qualifies as hateful.

I'm really not sure if you can credibly argue that my harsh disagreements with some peoples' views means that you're entitled to harshly disagree with mine. Tongue Especially since I'm not part of the "West Virginia coal miners are horrible racists" bandwagon on here. And I've generally refrained from mocking the less mentally capable posters we've had on here. The people I go after are usually people I perceive not as less intelligent or educated than me but as having bad views or character.

The ratio of disdain to thoughtfulness in your posts is a bit much. Sniping at morons is praiseworthy, even necessary as a kind of informal policing, but when someone rarely does anything else I begin to wonder why he or she is here in the first place. The sniping is pointless unless there is a thoughtful and interesting discussion to protect from idiotic intrusions, isn't it? It's not as if calling someone awful is likely to call them to some moral or intellectual awakening on its own.

I also thought that your comment on Shua's post was excessively nasty toward someone who generally tries pretty hard to be honest, thoughtful, and moral.

Point taken, though, and I apologize. I wanted to make a point about Hagrid's hatefulness - which at points rises to the level of honest-to-God hate speech, although for better or for worse much of the worst of it has been deleted - and I unfairly grouped you into it out of general irritation.

Well, I find most of the time thoughtfulness has a pretty low pay-off on here. Most people aren't sufficiently interested in listening and I have plenty of intellectual exchange in real life. In areas where I can give informative input most people aren't interested in or even able to offer much discourse to me and in areas where other people do know a lot here I usually don't have much to add of value to them. I read quite a lot of interesting things here that I learn from but I usually don't comment much in those instances. Very often I don't feel that I have anything particularly interesting to add - in this case, most of the basic points on trans issues and "freedom of speech" had already been made.

The disdain is more a form of social control (of the fact advocated in this very thread). I think it's an extremely low bar of moral obligation to call people out on the internet when they state awful views so it's something I try to live up to. I think this does serve a purpose even if it doesn't change the mind of the other person - it signals to other people reading it what is considered acceptable discourse and what isn't. And it can hopefully help empower anyone targeted by their hate speech to see that other people disapprove of it.

-----------------------------

I had to go back and check - hadn't realized it was Shua I was responding to. I was reading through the entire thread and replying as I went along so didn't really pay attention to who said what. I've seen this in a couple of cases lately (often from the "SJW" crowd, in fact) and it just annoys me. I don't know enough about Shua to judge him as a person - but I have a hard time imagining an intelligent person making that statement in good faith. I mean, let me give an analogy

"Saying that it's offensive to state that Jews are a cancer on society is really offensive to those forum members who suffer from cancer"

It's dumb because most people who suffer from mental illnesses aren't proud and happy about it. Mental illness acceptance is about not judging a person completely or make ridiculous inferences about them based on the one aspect of their being that is mental illness. It isn't to pretend as if crippling depression or schizophrenia isn't a bad thing. And I find it hard to buy that anyone would think competently about it for more than say 30 seconds and not immediately see this so it struck me as an attempt to be clever about something to score a cheap point. As someone who has dealt with and has been close to many people who deal with mental illness I found it to not be an act worthy of a very respectful answer. So I, admittedly, didn't give a very respectful answer.
10  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: The Sam Spade Memorial Good Post Gallery on: February 11, 2017, 11:26:04 am
There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

No one "understands" economics. I almost have my PhD in it, and I certainly don't "understand" it. People with Bachelors in econ don't "understand" it. People who've taken a couple courses certainly don't understand it. Economics is fickle, counterintuitive, caveat-riddled, vast, amorphous, and often inscrutable. Trying to understand economics is a hopelessly Sisyphean endeavor; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

-Mostly true.

no
11  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 11, 2017, 10:59:22 am
Also, please, the claim that the claim that "calling someone's gender orientation a mental illness is offensive" is offensive to people who are mentally ill is not clever. It doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look like a person who is trying really hard to look clever and failing ever harder at it. Think about your claim for a couple of minutes, swallow your embarrassment and don't repeat it again.

The attitudes displayed in Gustaf and Hagrid's posts are great examples of why it's worth speaking up about this. They are two of the most hateful regular posters here.

If you want an inclusive community, if you want to acknowledge the human dignity of every person, and if you want to enforce norms of basic respect, don't be hateful yourself. Even toward groups of people whom you believe deserve it. I'm not just talking about respect for speech that you dislike or find offensive, I'm also talking about how you discuss certain groups of people.

Bring on the scoffing and disdainful replies that give away just how thoroughly they don't get it. To put it in their preferred language, check your class privilege. That's hardly the only form of oppression that matters, although I'm sure that you'll claim against all evidence that that is what I really believe, but on an online forum in which status and recognition are most heavily influenced by verbal intelligence and access to education, it's a form of privilege that matters even more than it does in settings where other aspects of your identity are more salient whether you want them to be or not.

Extreme Republican is about as far from my definition of a good poster as it's possible to get. He was even on my ignore list when he created this thread. I have never seen any use or anything to be learned from engaging with him. The only reason that I even read his post was because it was had become an object of derision on AAD.

I'm one of the most hateful posters on Atlas? Who do you think I hate so much? I mean, yes, I'm going to be disdainful to someone who mocks trans people to be edgy, but I'm not sure that qualifies as hateful.

I'm really not sure if you can credibly argue that my harsh disagreements with some peoples' views means that you're entitled to harshly disagree with mine. Tongue Especially since I'm not part of the "West Virginia coal miners are horrible racists" bandwagon on here. And I've generally refrained from mocking the less mentally capable posters we've had on here. The people I go after are usually people I perceive not as less intelligent or educated than me but as having bad views or character.
12  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 11, 2017, 10:51:00 am
I am transracial.

Shut up. That's about as diplomatic and measured I can be with your BS.

-------------

Also, please, the claim that the claim that "calling someone's gender orientation a mental illness is offensive" is offensive to people who are mentally ill is not clever. It doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look like a person who is trying really hard to look clever and failing ever harder at it. Think about your claim for a couple of minutes, swallow your embarrassment and don't repeat it again.

Is it ever possible for you to make a point that doesn't rely entirely on your assumption of  being the moral standard that everyone else is supposed to just bow down to for some reason?

I've no idea what you're talking about. Not only do I not consider myself a "moral standard for others to bow down to" (though I obviously do not hold any moral views I consider to be inferior because at that point I'd just change them) but I also wasn't making much of a moral claim in that post. I just told Santander off for his bigoted BS and noted that the tedious habit of making clever points about mental illness is tedious. Neither of those points require me to be a moral actor.
13  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Indian Men Sexually Harass Women Via Mobile Phones on: February 08, 2017, 07:21:32 pm
Yeah, while India definitely suffers from strong patriarchal structures (especially in the North) this broad-brush racism is just that.

And I'm not sure all women in the West should give up struggling for their rights to rush off to India and try to do...something? Nor do I think any man in the West claiming that applies that logic to his rights v the rights of men in developing countries.
14  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 08, 2017, 07:04:32 pm
I am transracial.

Shut up. That's about as diplomatic and measured I can be with your BS.

-------------

Also, please, the claim that the claim that "calling someone's gender orientation a mental illness is offensive" is offensive to people who are mentally ill is not clever. It doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look like a person who is trying really hard to look clever and failing ever harder at it. Think about your claim for a couple of minutes, swallow your embarrassment and don't repeat it again.
15  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: Issue with one particular moderator on: February 08, 2017, 09:58:42 am
So, I think referring to people as mentally ill based on their gender is a pretty strong candidate for the type of personal attack not allowed on this forum.

Referring to a political movement and their goals as silly I'd say isn't, however.

As a more general point, I'll just note that anyone who does think something is really offensive or bigoted but doesn't think it is the job of moderation to censor it should shoulder an extra responsibility exerting some social control and make sure such views are met with fierce resistance. Otherwise it easily sounds a bit insincere.
16  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Trump again defends Putin by bashing the US "we aren't innocent" on: February 07, 2017, 10:51:29 am
Trump is unamerican in every sense of the word, but that isn't new. The guy wishes the US was less American and more Russian and has made clear that is his goal.
17  General Politics / Economics / Re: Why can't we go back to the Eisenhower tax code? on: January 29, 2017, 12:52:58 pm
Basically, all countries used to have super-high top marginal tax rates and then all countries scrapped them once we figured out it actually decreases revenue through incentive effects.



The Laffer curve has been pretty discredited over the last few decades.

The countries that scaled back income tax rates in the 80s all saw substantial declines in income tax revenue (that of tens had to be recouped through regressive taxes like VAT). Furthermore, there is no clear link between reductions to the top rate of tax and economic growth rates post 1975.

The Laffer curve is not discredited, it's almost trivially true. What may have been discredited is the exact shape of the Laffer curve assumed as a justification for specific tax cuts.

The tax cuts in the 80s in e.g. the US were pretty dramatic and not just about the top marginal tax rate. Most studies I've seen in recent years indicate the inefficiency of rates at those levels. Simple cross-country regressions aren't great tools for analyzing any economic policy.
18  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: This is what moderation on this site has become on: January 29, 2017, 12:43:13 pm
The ban on profanity is in the ToS, it's not an invention by mean moderators.
Fair enough.  I will refrain from swearing and report every post with profanity and/or vulgarity.

I mean, you can if that's what you want. I'm just noting that given the very clear rules by Dave I don't think we as moderators have much legitimacy in being conscientious objectors about reported posts with profanity in them.
19  About this Site / The Atlas / Re: This is what moderation on this site has become on: January 28, 2017, 05:12:25 pm
The ban on profanity is in the ToS, it's not an invention by mean moderators.
20  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Richard Spencer punched in the face at protest on: January 21, 2017, 09:31:31 pm
Oh my God if you google his name fifth item down is an obit on Gilad Atzmon's site (not clicking on that!) urgh wtf google stop it.

Ah, yes, the Jew who's too anti-Semitic for non-Jewish anti-Semites.

Coincidentally, a popular lecturer with the Christian Association within the Social Democrats here in Sweden. Then again, those guys are pretty vile anti-semites so it isn't very surprising.
21  General Politics / Economics / Re: The collapsing economic consensus on free trade on: December 22, 2016, 12:05:04 pm
It's funny how every thread on here attracts uninformed commentary about whether economics is a science or not.

Anyway, trade isn't a field I've looked at in quite a while, tbh. Glancing at the many articles posted here by realisticidealist this all seems to pertain to a) short-term and b) local negative effects. None of that is new and I don't think any of it changes the broad consensus that free trade is good. Especially, of course, if one takes a global perspective.

It's unclear why competition right now would be different than that of the past which did not create permanent disasters in society.
22  General Politics / Economics / Re: Why can't we go back to the Eisenhower tax code? on: December 07, 2016, 12:08:55 pm
Basically, all countries used to have super-high top marginal tax rates and then all countries scrapped them once we figured out it actually decreases revenue through incentive effects.

23  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Democratic senator will 'beat the hell' out of flag burners on: December 01, 2016, 10:38:13 am
Any WV Republican would likely be worse though. Tongue
24  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Trump and United Technologies reach agreement to keep Carrier jobs in Indiana on: November 30, 2016, 11:21:13 am
Trump supporters are so dumb.

Do you people not understand how the economy works? I prefer the free market over corrupt crony capitalism myself but I guess Republicans don't.
25  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Romney sold out on: November 30, 2016, 11:13:10 am
Yeah, I think there is a case for what Romney is doing here. It's unclear whether refusing to work with Trump once he's in power is the right call.

At least if you're not an officeholder with the power to defy him.
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