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1  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Clinton/Kaine First Joint Appearance Megathread on: July 23, 2016, 01:47:45 pm
FF Jesuit educated public servant.

We are good at public speeches Cheesy
2  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Is this morally justified in your opinion? on: July 23, 2016, 12:16:44 pm
"No matter how much she needs it" is a formulation that was pretty clearly intended to include situations like this, don't you think? Unless you're arguing that the mother never thought she could find herself in this situation, but nothing of what Wolverine said suggests that. People's wills and wishes don't suddenly become irrelevant just because they're not conscious anymore. I happen to believe that, in most circumstances, people should be able to choose what they think is best for them. Of course there are exceptions - in fact I'm probably one of the posters who has the broadest conception of legitimate exceptions - but I don't see how they apply to this situation.

Again, do you think that a person should receive potentially less appropriate and less effective personal care because of a remark made to a member of the family (and that's all it is, unless any request was stipulated legally) prior to them being in a position where that personal care was ever on the horizon and in being looked after outside the home, you could alleviate the care giving responsibilities of her family, lessen the pressure on her daughters marriage and her daughters finances?

All on the basis of what a woman said to her daughter. One time. What right does the daughter have to interpret this and push for this in a specific or exclusive manner (which is all this is) that satisfies her wishes ? Why on earth is it appropriate upholding this interpretation, possibly leading to divorce and to financial ruin all for the sake of a 'promise is a promise'? And even if she takes this on, why should the mother's care suffer as a result of this? What happens if they run out of money? Still provide now completely ineffective care, rather than place her with care givers? It's bordering on the selfish.
3  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Is this morally justified in your opinion? on: July 23, 2016, 08:43:38 am
Yes. But only because it's futile to try and fulfill the mothers wish when she clearly needs professional care. Fulfilling a promise to the eventual detriment of the person who made it invalidates any bond or any significance in the promise and serves only the needs of the person not bound by the implications of it.

Seems like you're making the same argument too.

Again, I'll ask, was the mother not capable of deciding for herself when she made him/her promise? Why wouldn't she know what's in her best interest?

Because she made that request not knowing she would have 4 strokes and LBD. This was not the request of a terminally I'll person who knew their fate.

She knew that was something that could happen to her. If she'd wanted not to go to a nursing home UNLESS specific circumstances occurred, she would have said so. Presumably that was a possibility that came up in a discussion.

She requested not to be put in a nursing home 'no matter how much she needs it'. To deny someone help they need now because they said this years ago when circumstances were different and you think upholding a generalised and unspecific promise is more important then helping somone who clearly needs third party medical and personal care is inhuman.
4  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: So are Pollsters under sampling Hispanics a major issue? on: July 23, 2016, 08:32:26 am
Yes. Latino focused polling was very accurate in 2012. If it picks up high turnout it 'locks' in otherwise swing states for Clinton which the state polling might otherwise miss.
5  General Discussion / Religion & Philosophy / Re: Are there any homosexuals/transgenders/transsexuals by choice? on: July 23, 2016, 08:09:23 am
Men aren't choosing to get a hard dick when thinking about men and then choosing not to the next time.

You mean to tell me that you got a boner from this?



I don't think you get how this works Smiley

If you asked this guy v a woman then I'd day the guy as he's a guy. Obviously.
6  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Is this morally justified in your opinion? on: July 23, 2016, 07:51:34 am
Yes. But only because it's futile to try and fulfill the mothers wish when she clearly needs professional care. Fulfilling a promise to the eventual detriment of the person who made it invalidates any bond or any significance in the promise and serves only the needs of the person not bound by the implications of it.

Seems like you're making the same argument too.

Again, I'll ask, was the mother not capable of deciding for herself when she made him/her promise? Why wouldn't she know what's in her best interest?

Because she made that request not knowing she would have 4 strokes and LBD. This was not the request of a terminally I'll person who knew their fate.
7  Forum Community / Off-topic Board / Re: Is this morally justified in your opinion? on: July 23, 2016, 05:59:42 am
Yes. But only because it's futile to try and fulfill the mothers wish when she clearly needs professional care. Fulfilling a promise to the eventual detriment of the person who made it invalidates any bond or any significance in the promise and serves only the needs of the person not bound by the implications of it.
8  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: battle of the good posters 2016 - round ia (democrats & leftists) on: July 23, 2016, 05:47:00 am
No idea who half of these posters are.
9  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Luntz to delegates: GOP has 'lost' the millennial generation on: July 21, 2016, 12:56:23 pm
It's always amusing to read generalizations about millennials from baby boomers when they're the most entitled generation that sucks the most government benefits. Many in the generation have spent and lived far outside their income and are getting to the point where they can't sustain it any more as they begin to retire. No financial savings tucked away, will be almost completely reliant on social security and other benefits and sucks but tax writeoffs and credits too.

AMEN! Boomers: the generation that was in power during the biggest recession since the Great Depression, started false wars, divided the country to sustain a culture war, cut their own taxes dramatically, shredded the benefits they enjoyed, allowed 9/11 to happen, and blame everyone else for everything they created!

Heaven forbid millenials feel entitled to having: a job that pays a living wage, equal treatment under the law, or stable economic and global affairs!

They don't want people to make more money when their minimum wage back then while nothing would be very high today so there's really no compare. I'll agree that the minimum wage should be raised, not as much as people want it to be. Someone working at a fast food place should by no means make $15 an hour for completely unskilled labor. They need to cut their own expenses (get rid of the smart phone, cable TV, DVR, new laptop, new car).

I saw someone mention about the rich, well the upper middle class and the rich and many business owners will take advantage of credits and write-offs. From being an underwriter people really are making $70-100+ a year but paying nothing in taxes (business wise) due to writing everything off and claiming less than $15k of income or losses.

Indeed. The economic recovery in the west since the crash has been entirely orchestrated to protect their assets; homes, pensions etc as they retire.
10  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Luntz to delegates: GOP has 'lost' the millennial generation on: July 21, 2016, 11:05:06 am
The first sequence of percussion notes in 'Rabbit Heart (Raise It Up)' by Florence and the Machine>The Beatles.

Almost (but nothing ever will) gives Kate Bush a run for her money.
11  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Woman tries to buy birthday cake for her wife... on: July 21, 2016, 10:27:35 am
There is only one gay person in a town with 10 bakeries capable of making fancy wedding cakes?  Seems....impossible.
So a business's right to discriminate is like a bystander problem in your world?
Indeed, just as it is for almost everybody in our great country, no matter which way they like their lover's genitalia.  These cases, unless there are a WHOLE bunch we don't hear about (which I suppose isn't impossible) are rare.  Most gay people (I'm guessing way over 95%) that have gotten married have had no trouble at all getting a wedding cake.  Or maybe they have and I just haven't heard about, seems highly unlikely though.  Again, if it's the only business in town doing the service you need and they refuse, perhaps the govt should get involved....I still don't think the first action should be to call the cops or your lawyer though.


Again, I'm generally on your side here, I just don't think it's that huge of a deal because it doesn't affect that many people, and I feel for those that are affected and think using the govt to fix their problem isn't the worst thing in the world.  So unless you can show me that this happens all the freaking time, I think we're going to have to agree to (mostly) agree.

How would you know how often it happens? You're not gay. 99 times out if 100 no one talks about it. Do you want gays to carry a diary and record these incidents before you'll consider the impact? Why should we have to twist so much, more than other protected groups, more than people with changeable religious excuses. Why have we a heavier burden of proof?
12  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Woman tries to buy birthday cake for her wife... on: July 20, 2016, 05:21:09 pm
No, she should not have to sell them the cake

Of course I would flip around the question: "Woman tries to buy birthday cake for her wife and after agreeing to pay for the cake in question backs out of the transaction upon finding out that the baker is straight and not gay." Should that be allowed ?

That wouldn't happen. Like at all.
13  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: First religion you'd convert to? on: July 20, 2016, 05:18:23 pm
It's like that openly-atheist United Church of Canada pastor who's getting breathless write-ups in hyper-liberal 'Christian' media lately. (Have you seen any of this stuff?)

I'm sure Gretta Vosper has provided counsel to countless many over the past 19 years. I'm sure they are thankful for her advice. I know you struggle to understand how an atheist can do that (often, dare you imagine it 'better' and for more humanist, dignified reasons than those who are devout) and why indeed so many atheists are attracted to 'professional ministry' or continue in it after their faith leaves them. Maybe you should actually go and 'see this stuff.'

I really would have much more sympathy for Vosper's way of doing things if it hadn't led to the near-collapse and subsequent decidedly anemic recovery of her parish, which indicates (to me) a strong objection on the part of most of her original parishioners to seeing this happen to their community. I don't in principle object to religious naturalism, not nearly as much as I used to anyway--it's valuable to have on the religious scene, and it provides a great deal to a great many people. A number of atheists--therapists, physicians, teachers, friends--have provided me with invaluable advice and comfort over the years and I really resent the implication that my lack of desire to see overtly (id est, non-Unamunoish) non-Christian entryism into Christian ministry indicates a lack of interest in or understanding of the important work that non-Christians and non-religious people do elsewhere. Would you have reacted this way if I'd said that it was inappropriate for a Christian minister to convert to Buddhism (or to have covertly been a Buddhist all along; I've read conflicting things about which is the case with Vosper) and turn her church into a zen-dō over the objections of a supermajority of the congregants?

She's led the church since 1997. Congregations come and go for a variety of reasons, particularly in countries where Christianity is in flux and general decline. She has a congregation and from what I've read they are happy with her. Who is to say it would have been higher had she not been there? She is good for her congregation and they are the ones that matter.
14  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Twitter bans Milo for directing racial harassment on: July 20, 2016, 03:24:11 pm
He's an obnoxious f......

I mean; come on. He's taking the absolute piss here. It's performance art, but he now can't control it.



15  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: First religion you'd convert to? on: July 20, 2016, 02:54:00 pm
It's like that openly-atheist United Church of Canada pastor who's getting breathless write-ups in hyper-liberal 'Christian' media lately. (Have you seen any of this stuff?)

I'm sure Gretta Vosper has provided counsel to countless many over the past 19 years. I'm sure they are thankful for her advice. I know you struggle to understand how an atheist can do that (often, dare you imagine it 'better' and for more humanist, dignified reasons than those who are devout) and why indeed so many atheists are attracted to 'professional ministry' or continue in it after their faith leaves them. Maybe you should actually go and 'see this stuff.'
16  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: How masculine/feminine do you rate yourself? on: July 20, 2016, 12:51:39 pm
I have a burning, visceral hatred of what is commonly understood as masculinity. I shouldn't elaborate too much since I know this will be used as comedy material by the perpetual teenagers on this and the other forum, but whatever. I'd be happy to give any contribution I can to the complete destruction and annihilation of masculinity in every sphere of society.

That said, I can't say have any particularly feminine trait either. I don't think insecurity and emotional dependence should be understood as "feminine" just because the opposite extremes are typically "masculine". I have also become increasingly emotionally expressive in recent years, but it might just be the influence of Californian culture.

So yeah, the dichotomy makes no sense. Voted 3.

I think male homosexuality, though pairing up with a likeminded partner is one of the most 'masculine' things anyone can do. Whether or not one or both have 'masculine' or 'feminine' traits is nothing more than window dressing. But the act is incredibly masculine. I suppose I take a classicist position on this.
17  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: In other news, the Pub platform still is anti gay, all the way on: July 20, 2016, 12:41:23 pm
Why would such a hedonistic party like the GOP every support the rights of gays to settle down? Marriage must be preserved as an institution that they can weasel out of after they get bored.
18  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Labour Party (UK) Leadership Election, 2016 on: July 20, 2016, 11:30:49 am
If he does win again you're more likely to see him get his old demand for annual leadership elections.

So every year Labour get's the opportunity to kill itself?
19  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Hypothetical Referendum on the status of Northern Ireland on: July 20, 2016, 11:29:55 am
I think in order for this plan to be tenable 'Northern Ireland' would have to be allowed to exist in some form, perhaps effectively transferring it's non devolved powers from the UK to Ireland. Unionism would eventually move from political to merely cultural but it would never fully dissipate so you have to have NI as a 'thing' within a Greater Ireland.

'Ireland', the Republic/South and the North would effectively have to be the guarantor of such an arrangement, almost a rehashed Anglo-Irish Treaty but with 'Ireland' overseeing it. Effectively the Republic of Ireland would have to make very significant changes to it's constitution and national consciousness in order for this to work. The Republic isn't a 'victor' taking over the North from the UK. It would have to be a formal union which might see 'South' giving up responsibilities to an all Ireland body. Would this even be favourable to voters in the Republic?

Though should the UK fragment, Ireland would probably move closer, even politically, to whatever arrangement of states emerges from this.
20  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Labour Party (UK) Leadership Election, 2016 on: July 20, 2016, 11:16:47 am
So given the inevitable Corbyn victory and with the PLP finding the position untenable we get SDP mark 2, except with 100-150 defectors becoming the official opposition, who will be elected as 'Not The Labour Party' leader? Someone who actually wants it rather than a former stalking horse?
21  Forum Community / Forum Community / Re: First religion you'd convert to? on: July 20, 2016, 11:12:41 am
Quaker.
22  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Conservative Christian pastor would vote for Trump over Jesus on: July 20, 2016, 02:30:55 am
(Spits out coffee in comedic fashion)
23  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion / International Elections / Re: Labour Party (UK) Leadership Election, 2016 on: July 19, 2016, 12:30:02 pm
Looking at that map I genuinely forgot for a second Labour only had one MP in Scotland.
24  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion / 2016 U.S. Presidential Election / Re: Melania Trump caught plagiarizing Michelle Obama's 2008 speech on: July 19, 2016, 05:47:21 am
I love this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Diane_7A/status/755272239659028480
25  General Politics / U.S. General Discussion / Re: Conservative Christian pastor would vote for Trump over Jesus on: July 19, 2016, 05:40:06 am
Andrew Sullivan get's it spot on.

'The degeneracy of conservatism its descent into literally mindless appeals to tribalism and fear and hatred was on full display. You might also say the same about the religious right, the members of whom have eagerly embraced a racist, a nativist, a believer in war crimes, and a lover of the tyrants that conservatism once defined itself against. Their movement long lost any claim to a serious Christian conscience. But that they would so readily embrace such an unreconstructed pagan is indeed a revelation.'
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