[not evil haters or bigots]

I see them as equal.

To BRTD:
Those who oppose gay marriage(as I have always done and will never evolve or reconstruct on this) are not evil haters or bigots. I oppose it because it flies in the face of God's picture of how He wants to relate with humanity. It also flies in the face of medical wisdom and science. It also behooves me to also add that these are the same reasons that "gay couples" should never be able to adopt. As Benji Nolot, a modern day abolitionist, said recently on his twitter

Liberty without morality is anarchy

Is that what the proponents of ssm want? That is what they (supporters of ssm) adovcate for all intents and purposes. I know not many share my view on marriage on this site and think my view is extreme yet I have this view not because of religious belief (though that does influence it). Its because the best situation for a child to be raised is a home with a mom and a dad together and married to each other. Any situation less than that has shown significant negative consequences.

With all due respect, I must agree with JCL on this one.  Although I do support civil unions, of course.

I want you to answer this seriously. Same sex marriage has been legal in jurisdictions beginning in 2001 and continuing to the present. Indeed if you add all these marriages up, you have a combined total of about 199 years. You have two centuries worth of data to analyse. If you add in civil partnerships you get several hundred more years of data. If you add in legal joint adoption by same sex couples you have several hundred other years worth of data. Please can you tell me precisely, from this information, where allowing two people of the same gender to marry and raise has negatively impacted on society, marriage and children.

[not evil haters or bigots]

The question itself is stupid of course.

I see them as equal.

To BRTD:
Those who oppose gay marriage(as I have always done and will never evolve or reconstruct on this) are not evil haters or bigots. I oppose it because it flies in the face of God's picture of how He wants to relate with humanity. It also flies in the face of medical wisdom and science. It also behooves me to also add that these are the same reasons that "gay couples" should never be able to adopt. As Benji Nolot, a modern day abolitionist, said recently on his twitter

Liberty without morality is anarchy

Is that what the proponents of ssm want? That is what they (supporters of ssm) adovcate for all intents and purposes. I know not many share my view on marriage on this site and think my view is extreme yet I have this view not because of religious belief (though that does influence it). Its because the best situation for a child to be raised is a home with a mom and a dad together and married to each other. Any situation less than that has shown significant negative consequences.

What ‘medical wisdom and science’? Since when did either of these things have anything to do with a marriage contract? However if you want to go down that route then let’s do it. We are humans but we are also animals. I know you like to think we are special and made in the likeness of god which undoubtedly means that god has too many teeth (which before the advent of basic ‘slam a door remove a tooth’ dentistry killed off most of our ancestors by the early 20’s), a redundant tailbone, an appendix that can kill us and sinuses that drain the wrong way. Like animals we have sex. Not all animals of course; sex by procreation; the male slamming or rubbing his bits against the female is actually the minority; we are natures ‘sexual deviants’ if it were. Anyhoo, in just about every observed animal that reproduces through procreation, some of these animals have sex with animals of the same sex. And you know it’s like that in animals separated by millions, even hundreds of millions of years of evolution. And you know what? It keeps happening! You could shoot every animal and every person who does it in the head until there were none left and a generation later it would start out all over again. So it’s pretty much here to stay. And like most things that are here to stay, like walking, eating and sh-tting there’s obviously a reason for it. So that’s your gods plan.

Now we humans constructed a thing called ‘marriage.’ It happened long before the Sumerian war god Jehovah was even on the scene. We did it because we formed societies; we learned how to farm, learned how to own and parcel land and needed a way to ensure it passed down. Humans like all animals who procreate form bonds with the person we f-ck. Some are fleeting, some are long term. It’s kind of taken us a while to get to the fact that gay people do it to. They have sex. They form relationships. And both of these are incredibly fulfilling. Male animals often thrust into the anuses of other male animals because they bang the prostate which is absolutely delightful. Best thing to do to a man if you ask me and thankfully the straights are realising that too. Now of course if your god has created man in his own likeness having such easy access to the male ‘g-spot’ inside the anus that can be stimulated by penile thrusting is far more beneficial than having upside down sinuses that require me to stick my head into a bowl with salts when I have a headcold. But, to be scatological for a second, you are no doubt arguing that the anus is for sh-tting. Which of course it is, just as much as the penis is for peeing and the lips are for talking. When it comes to sex, every part of the body is a sexual organ and if you were at all comfortable with sex you would realise that. But I digress. In short, there are gays and always will be gays. And it’s very much biological. So it seems stupid to deny something we’ve created like marriage, that is based solely on the on biological impulse to ‘mate’ to gays?

But won’t somebody think of the children? You know, nine in ten of all sexual assaults on children happen in the family home by a family member. Probably a few blocks away from you there is probably a wholesome married father is f-cking his young daughter. It’s horrific but it’s true. You cannot judge a persons ability to be a good parent for their child or someone else’s based on the fact that they are married. There isn’t the evidence to support that. Stability is important, but stability can be found in a married home where there is love, a same sex home where there is love or with a single mother who takes her child out of the hell they’ve been living in and gives them stability. You don’t magically receive a ‘good parenting’ certificate when you marry. It doesn’t mean you’re going to be any good and it doesn’t mean it’s going to be a good environment for children. The amount of people I know who grew up in a married home where their parents despised each other or hurled things across the room and it f-ucked them up for life is horrifying. Divorce when it came was a blessing for everyone. I take it therefore, JCL, that if you meet someone who’s just wonderful, absolutely wonderful who was raised by two mums or two dads that you’re not going to argue that they are worse off than the daughter plowed weekly by her father or raised in a married family where plates were thrown at walls.

Andrewland is a parliamentary democracy headed by the President elected by the people. It is a titular position that holds very little political power. The parliament is unicameral and citizen’s referendums are held on important constitutional issues. The voting age is 16.

The nation itself is constitutionally secular. Religious observance is generally low as per most western nations but religious observance is relatively respected. However the inherent rights of individuals are held higher than the rights a person has acquired because of a chosen personal philosophy. As a result there are no religious or political exemptions to equality law which forms a keystone of the constitution.  The nation prides itself on the pursuit of knowledge and personal advancement. Children at school are taught to express themselves though art and to engage in philosophy and mythology. Such courses are thorough and introduce students to a critical understanding of past and present religious mythology. Physical Education is compulsory but varies from athletics to team sports to yoga and is tailored to each student.

Sex and human relationship education is comprehensive. Contraceptives are free and abortion is legal, however the rate of abortion and teenage pregnancy is kept low by a strong understanding of sexual health. LGBT rights are constitutionally protected.

Families are strong and flexible with the government providing assistance to families to allow the elderly and the infirm to remain cared for as part of the family unit if possible. Caregiving is often provided by the extended family. The economy is modern and balanced. Unemployment can be a problem at times, but the government provides vocational training. The lowest 20% of earners are exempt from income tax and only pay taxes on consumer goods. Most towns and cities operate co-operatives and credit unions are increasingly more popular than banks. There is no set retirement age, though government assistance is provided to those over the age of 67 depending on whether or not they are still in work.

[but remarriage after divorce is granted only ad hoc.]

but remarriage after divorce is granted only ad hoc. Drug use is generally frowned upon; marijuana and tobacco are legal but very heavily regulated and taxed. Abortion is legal in the first trimester but tightly regulated. Prostitution is legal but pimping and soliciting are not. Prophylactics are freely available, but they are not very commonly used and non-marital sex is not viewed very positively.

That's horrifying

Scotland will hopefully do so this summer. It helps us that the anti-marriage titular head was busted for having a boyfriend and been exiled by the Vatican.

The best and most succinct political ideology to have is to to remain open minded.

As for the season finale a lot of people have it in the US already. Someone in shipping made a big boo boo and a lot of the Series 7 Part 2 Blu Rays shipped and were received today. It's bound to end up online at some point which makes me really want to watch it and pissed at the same time.

Yeah that's a huge issue right now. No one knows how many were shipped. I think given that it's only a week a lot of people will hold off from viewing it. But it'll end up online as these things often do. Apparently it confirms suspicions people had of the 50th, but doesn't explain it.

It's not a bad episode. I just found it a little dull. Warwick Davis is absolutely fantastic in it though. I want to see him again

Next week's episode is the finale. They are using old clips from the original series and superimposing Clara in them. Should be interesting to see why.

Not a bad episode, but it was actually the first of this series I've been a bit 'meh' on. I was a little annoyed by that.

Having free will is neither here nor there. I just think the idea of it not existing and it being in the hands of a 'willful' god (apparently the only being who has free will) who micromanages everything from disasters to farting as being fairly futile.

Some are. Some are anti gay marriage because they are anti-gay and being anti-gay is what makes them bigots. Some aren't because they haven't quite got to where they need to yet on that issue or just haven't thought about it. If they are willing to then that's fine. If not then they are stubborn.

Ten years so let's see.

I went from a signed up member of the Labour Party to quitting and joining the Tories and standing for election and then resigning my membership (though I still support them) I'm moved from liberal Scott-like hangwringing Christian to atheist and from anti to pro independence. I've always been pro gay rights, pro-choice and anti-death penalty. On economics I've always taken a typical European Liberal viewpoint but in time of hardship support move government intervention than in times of good. I also don't really care much for politics anymore.

I hate talking about religion at least to start off with. I often like to respond though. An American pastor from a church I know about was on the street in Glasgow with two policemen (their church preachers have been cautioned by the police for breaching equality law; wishing bodily harm on persons so it was expected). I was asked where truth comes from. I responded saying that it is a loaded question but that it comes from experience. I then had a five minute barrage which prompted a little bit of a crowd. He asked if experience came from the senses. I said in many ways it did. He asked if a blind man had all his senses and if not was his experience not limited? I said that for a man born blind then his senses were not limited as far as that man was concerned as he did not know sight. It was very difficult to answer him as he declared to the crowd that I was rude was shouting (he had a megaphone I did not) and an atheist. I told him at no point did I tell him what my beliefs were.

Two nice Muslim guys walked over and said that god is love and that the man shouting me down was not representing god. His attention turned to them and he said he didn't want to speak to me anymore. I said that I didn't really want to speak to him either but he had asked me a question. He said to the crowd 'that's not true you weren't here for the half hour he was arguing with me'. I said I was there for ten minutes. The two men said that was true. The preacher then began a rough and highly inaccurate attempted take down of their faith. They were very calm and reasonable but he had a speaker and they did not. I asked him (and an person listening told me that they counted) him 36 times for 'just a minute to speak' to assist the two Muslims who were trying to point out errancies in the New Testament. In the end me and the two other guys ended up having a conversation ourselves leaving the other man to shout for ten minutes. It was a great discussion actually and the other guy eventually gave up and handed over to another man.

I was really annoyed. Why do people have to be such c-nts? It's bad enough having to hear all this when I'm on the way home but to rope in people so you can play with them and then refuse to allow them to actually speak? Everyone was nothing but nice to him. What a tool. Turns out we were all being filmed by another person from the church. Can't wait to see the edited version of that.

Please don't call it pro-marriage.  I oppose gay marriage (despite supporting civil unions), but I'm not anti-marriage.  After all, I'm not against heterosexual marriage.

That's the most stupid thing you've said.

Bigots deserved to be trolled.

False. Everyone deserves to be trolled from time to time.

Nice people and nice ideas don't deserve it. Unless people are bitter or jealous

Very low. I hate to see service workers treated like sh-t.

I have to say I loved Pete Campbell’s slight tumble down the stairs.

chicken

It f-cked up one half of my family so any opinion I have would fail to be unbiased.

Yet another poll about a poster who’s actually very good but has a political view or an aspect of their personality that pissed someone off the day before so we have to suffer a public opinion test.

FF

Here’s the thing about being bisexual. If you meet the right person and settle down with them it’s either going to be a man or a woman. So you cease outwardly to appear to be bisexual and instead appear to be gay or straight, even though you are still bisexual. That surprisingly is something that a lot of people would have difficulty understanding. ‘She’s bisexual, why is she married to Bill, why isn’t she with a woman?’ etc. If it is true, she’s even more smashing. So good luck to her.

OK, I was trying to make a broader point and elevate the level of debate a bit, but it doesn't seem to be working...

I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve volunteered in LGBT sexual health clinics as a facilitator. Open, frank and sometimes ‘TMI’ talks about sexual health are vitally important to ensure that men are comfortable with their bodies, their sex life and the relationship with their doctor. If a man comes in you can’t assume he’s ‘having sex’ because you need to work out what he means. You can’t use the term ‘gay’ as many men who have sex with men don’t relate to it. You can’t even say ‘anal’ because some don’t know what that means or consider anal sex just to be ‘sex’ (i.e, it shouldn’t be differentiated from vaginal sex, because it’s an equivalent) So you end up having to get them to speak to the specialist by being frank and crude. I would say at least 60-70% of the men who did show up because they had concerns only did so because they spoke about it with a friend first. Open, honest, crude and cheeky discussion about sex is very important for sexual health.

In my opinion, talking about sex, even masturbation is elevating the debate.

The YouGov polls carried out since the local election results:

Yesterday's: Lab 39 Con 29 UKIP 16 LD 9
Today's: Lab 38 Con 27 UKIP 17 LD 11

These are the highest UKIP scores in YouGov polls.  I suspect we may see a 20% for them in Opinium or Survation's next effort.

Is YouGov biased against them?

Different methodologies. Interestingly enough UKIP voters appear to be (though it's difficult to check) generally older and lower middle class. They were the 'swing voters' of elections past; Major won them in 92, Labour swept them in 1997 (they were just 647 votes shy of winning Boston and Skegness for example, an area that the UKIP performed well in last week) and 2001 and the Tories clawed them back in 2005 and 2010. Now they appear to be disaffected. As a result, they are relatively evenly spread out across the country. Indeed the Tory base (which we were told was most disaffected) was relatively untouched and they held on in areas where they always do. If the UKIP aren't spent by 2015, they may have the same fate as the Alliance did.

[That's reminiscent of Glasgow.]

A full quarter of the Harrow Labour party breaking away? That's reminiscent of Glasgow.

There is a rumour that's going to happen again.

The homosexual over the homophobe obviously