Update XVII: I Ate The Strawberry (The REAL, AUTHENTIC Update)

[J-Mann]

JMann, if Bushie movies to Kansas City, could you invent a job for him at your workplace $10/hr in something he won't possibly screw up?

Couldn't do that, I'm afraid. Our core values alone would disqualify Jeff from employment there based on my personal knowledge of his history.

[J-Mann]

No, I don't think it's at all normal for those episodes to repeatedly happen. And now that he's acknowledged this latest one, perhaps with some guidance, he'll actually seek the attention he needs.

It's more common than you'd think. I had a technician in the field freaking out this morning, and it was due to a lot more than basic on-the-job issues. He's likely got a lot more piled on him (some of which I know about, some of which I likely don't) that's aggravating his mental state.

People handle pressure differently, but his cat-scratch breakdowns are probably equivalent to other people getting pissed off and shutting down, or lashing out, or going on a three-day bender. I'll call BS on anyone who says they haven't, at some point in their life, felt overwhelmed by their situation and acted in a way that wasn't typically "them."

And while I don't agree with you on the abnormality of such breakdowns, I think we'd both agree that something should happen to mitigate them in the future. Episodes like that repeatedly happen if their root causes are not addressed.

[J-Mann]

No, I don't think it's at all normal for those episodes to repeatedly happen. And now that he's acknowledged this latest one, perhaps with some guidance, he'll actually seek the attention he needs.

It's more common than you'd think. I had a technician in the field freaking out this morning, and it was due to a lot more than basic on-the-job issues. He's likely got a lot more piled on him (some of which I know about, some of which I likely don't) that's aggravating his mental state.

People handle pressure differently, but his cat-scratch breakdowns are probably equivalent to other people getting pissed off and shutting down, or lashing out, or going on a three-day bender. I'll call BS on anyone who says they haven't, at some point in their life, felt overwhelmed by their situation and acted in a way that wasn't typically "them."

And while I don't agree with you on the abnormality of such breakdowns, I think we'd both agree that something should happen to mitigate them in the future. Episodes like that repeatedly happen if their root causes are not addressed.

I'm not saying it's not uncommon; but that does not mean that it is normal or healthy.  I too have seen coworkers who've had breakdowns (a guy who broke his hand punching a wall and a guy who broke a couple hundred dishes by throwing them on the floor and at his boss, along with various employees who've just simply broke down and cried over various personal issues).  But this is more than "at some point" in Jeff's life.  It's happened multiple times in under a year; it's the frequency and severity of the episodes that's most concerning to me, not merely the fact that he's cried.

No disagreement there. How someone deals with inevitable pressure and how they make changes in their lives to handle said pressure better in the future is what separates "dealing with normal stress" and "needing guidance to fix major problems."

[J-Mann]

Jeff, I understand that when people say, "Go see a psychiatrist," it comes off as abrasive and offensive. On the other hand, their suggestions are most-likely rooted in a genuine interest in seeing you -- once and for all -- overcome some of the difficulties that plague your life.

Think of it this way:

 - If I drank alcohol from time to time, you probably wouldn't think anything of it. A lot of people drink.

 - If -- one time while drinking -- I got exceptionally drunk, got in a fight at a bar and spent a night in jail sobering up, you might sympathize with my plight and (if you were a good friend), suggest that I pace myself a little better next time I go out.

 - If I got black-out drunk every weekend, had been in more fights than anyone can count, had been banned from entering some establishments, had just lost my license because of a third DUI and lost my job due to an inability to drive, you might recommend that I seek some professional help so that I get my problem under control and can get my life back on track.

I think you're equating "mental health professional" with "someone who fixes crazy" ... and you're not crazy, right?

But that's not the case. The recommendation to seek additional help (above and beyond your family or closer circle of friends) comes from literally years of seeing multiple types of destructive and / or ineffective behaviors that are hurting you and your life to the point where you have emotional outbursts.

From wherever you might seek help, consider such guidance as coaching or mentorship, where someone helps you outline problems, identify root causes, build goals and plans for overcoming challenges, monitors performance and -- most importantly -- holds you accountable to results. The Forum has correctly identified that you greatly struggle in holding yourself accountable; they're recommending that you find someone who will so that, together, you overcome your challenges.

[J-Mann]

bushie why were you uninvited to kansas city?

and has papa bushie begun clearing out his train room to make room for you to move back in, which apparently youve already done?

He's answered this a couple of times already. You should read the Update to keep up with these sorts of thing

[J-Mann]

My Aunt and Uncle have things specifically lined up for Mom and Dad.  I was working at the time they booked this trip, so that's why I wasn't included.

[J-Mann]

As I've stated numerous times, I don't at all understand what sort of magic you people seem to think a psychiatrist would do with Bushie. As it happens, I see one every three months. They're not miracle workers, and, for the most part, they're not talk therapists either. Like most doctors, they see patients for 5-10 minutes unless there is an extreme and urgent emergency. Mostly, they dabble in pharmaceuticals, making best guesses with brain chemistry. As the brain is still largely a mystery and everybody's brain is different, drug therapy involves a lot of trial and error, attempting to find drugs and dosages that best suit people's needs.

This is my main qualm about seeing one.  I don't think I need one, but they are mostly a revolving door of medicine.  If there's one thing my body doesn't need it's more medication.  I currently already take 7 pills in the morning including my multivitamin, 1 pill in the early evening, and 3 pills at bed time, plus my "as-needed" meds like my migraine pill and OTC's.  In about 3 weeks, I will be losing one pill in the morning and at bed time, but still I'm already being pumped full of drugs as it is.  My liver doesn't need any more meds.  If I see anybody, it would be a psychologist, not a psychiatrist.  I went to a psychologist in the 5th-7th grades when I was going through a very rough time in school and with my Tourette's.  It really helped.  If I could find a job that provided good benefits, I would see if I can see a psychologist.  I just don't trust psychiatrists.

It comes off as kind-off fluffy BS sometimes, but what about a life coach? You may or may not benefit from medication, but I think you could definitely benefit from doing some real planning with someone and having them hold you regularly accountable. This seems to be your big missing link.

Read the post I had on the last page comparing your issues to those of an alcoholic. You may not need a psychiatrist, but darn it if you couldn't benefit from "professional help" of some sort that is committed to true planning and accountability with you.

[J-Mann]

Don't television stations and radio stations alert people when there is very severe weather in Oklahoma? And people using the internet also have access to weather.com so you don't have to constantly update people on it, just say "hey there's going to be some harsh weather from this city to this city, god bless" or something like that.

Of course. It's just that many people in Oklahoma are obsessed with the weather (for obvious reasons) to the point that they try to play Gary England, but ultimately they don't have much of any sophisticated knowledge of meteorology. It's just something the rest of us have to tolerate every year. I doubt Bushie's saying anything crucial that isn't all over the news, but I guess it's well-meant nevertheless.

Question for the Update Historians: Didn't Bushie defriend Inks on facebook because he corrected his weather updates? I vaguely remember that spilling over to the forum.

I seem to recall something like that happening, as well ... questioning credentials and the like.

[J-Mann]

I'll be in Albuquerque tonight and tomorrow. Jeff, if I scope out a good restaurant, will you consider my recommendation?

[J-Mann]

I wouldn't want to ruin Mama and Papa's weekend getaway by making it even more about Bushie.

Unless J-Mann wants to stage an intervention...

I won't be sticking around for the weekend. I'm just going down to pick up a few model trains and driving right back.

[J-Mann]

Sadly, I have no actual train room. When I was a kid, I would have loved it and was very into model trains, though I never had any high-quality ones.

I'm actually feeling pretty rough today, so I may not go out at all after I land in ABQ, but if I find a good restaurant, I'll pass along the info.

[J-Mann]

This is a Jeff tradition ... he's like a 75-year-old, or a bag-phone owner from 1995 -- he completely turns his phone off at night and on occasions like drives to other states.

[J-Mann]

Jeff, even though unemployment sucks and it's tempting to take the first thing that comes along, will you consider doing yourself a favor this time around and be discriminating based on the quality of prospects you have?

You've got a lot of interviews lined up, but if the first one is a call center and they (as they are prone to do) make an immediate offer, you don't have to take it.

I know you've been thinking about the next job as short term, and if that's the case, you can stillbe discriminating so that your financial impact is minimized. Taking a call center or other temp job in OKC, which necessitates a move, all while maintaining a place in Tulsa and (from what I gathered) not sub-leasing just doesn't make logical sense.

[J-Mann]

Jeff, even though unemployment sucks and it's tempting to take the first thing that comes along, will you consider doing yourself a favor this time around and be discriminating based on the quality of prospects you have?

You've got a lot of interviews lined up, but if the first one is a call center and they (as they are prone to do) make an immediate offer, you don't have to take it.

I know you've been thinking about the next job as short term, and if that's the case, you can stillbe discriminating so that your financial impact is minimized. Taking a call center or other temp job in OKC, which necessitates a move, all while maintaining a place in Tulsa and (from what I gathered) not sub-leasing just doesn't make logical sense.

J-Mann, do you have answers for us about these call centers?  I never once thought of working at a "call center" before Update graced my life.  Are they just abundant out there in the plains?

No real answers from me. Not without research, at least. When I lived in Manhattan KS, they used to have a tech park that was customer service heavy, but it's been abandoned (I took a creepy tour of the Alltel / Verizon building and it was like being in an apocalyptic world ... all the offices were just abandoned; photos of families and appointment books were still in their places). I'm pretty sure the call centers that built there were attracted by the potential of a large and inexpensive pool of workers from nearby Fort Riley and Junction City.

So, I suppose it's possible that Oklahoma saw a boom of call centers sprout up around that same time and they've just thrived. It'd be cheap labor and a relatively unskilled pool of potential employees.

And, from my few experiences using temp agencies, that's typically the work being quickly filled, even in non-call center environments. Somebody's gotta answer the phones.

[J-Mann]

I never said I'm worth $15 an hour.  I just said $15 is better than $10.  What my job history is worth does not factor into the equation.

Yes, but the reason it's $15 is because it's a customer service job that won't pay you that much because it's a scam or it's legitimate and demanding and you won't be able to hold it down.

Think of all the weeks you've been unemployed in chase of that pie in the sky $15. Imagine if you worked $8.50/hr for 40 hours a week during that entire time. You'd have literally tens of thousands of dollars more on top of what your parents have subsidized over these years.

In baseball terms, rather than hit .300 as a singles hitter, you're swinging for the fences and striking out to a .005 batting average.

So, you're saying I should take the job, if offered, even if it pays $9 or $10 an hour?  Instead of turning it down in hopes of a higher paying one that may or may not happen?  You have a good point there.

I guess it's kind of like the man on the roof during the flood story.

This is a tough (but, in your case, absolutely rational) pill to swallow. If presented with two opportunities -- one which promises the potential of $15 an hour, and another which guarantees $10 an hour -- you'd be tempted to take the one with higher potential, as you always have.

But those lower-paying positions more-likely guarantee a steady income without caveats, other than doing your job. BRTD is right -- the call center incentive structure isn't necessarily a scam, but it's a way to get the masses starry-eyed about a lucrative position without a guarantee to pay such wages.

Had you found and accepted something better suited for you (whether that be back-office or retail or general labor) for $10.00 an hour back in January 2012 and been able to retain the position, you'd be looking at pre-tax earnings of $57,200 over that period of time. As is -- chasing the higher potential but falling flat because you're trying to step too far out of your element -- you've likely pulled in far less.

This is why discrimination and careful consideration is key this time around, even if you're looking at a job and not a career position.

[J-Mann]

There are people raising young children on $8.35 an hour

True statement. And I think Jeff could make some concessions so that a smaller wage is a more-acceptable wage -- eating at home and cutting back on TV would be top on the list.

Still, I don't think we should oversimplify how bare bones one would have to exist in order to make an $8.35 an hour wage work. Jeff is in a more-manageable situation due to having his parents' help, so he could get by on a smaller wage in order to build up experience, a somewhat-stable job history and start to pay down some debt. However, this is where the mentor / life coach / etc. comes into play to help him make that type of wage work -- because it wouldn't be easy:

Estimated pre-tax annual earnings at $8.35 an hour would be:

$17,368 -- that's assuming there is paid time off and / or vacation included.

Tax liability at that level would be low, but for sh[inks] and grins, let's assume $1,500 -- federal and state.

What would other reasonable monthly expenses be?

Rent          $300 / mo
Electric      $50 / mo
Water        $25 / mo
Food          $350 / mo (Can you get by with less? Sure ... but you'll eat unhealthy food)
Gas / Car   $150 / mo (This includes routine maintenance ... no idea if Jeff has car payments)
Clothing     $40 / mo (Don't expect someone to not buy clothing)
Phone        $75 / mo (Assume data and possible replacement at some point)
Internet     $50 / mo (Sorry, it's probably a necessity in this day and age)
Debt          $150 / mo (I have no idea what Jeff's debt is, but this is a reasonable amount)

That's $1,190 in expenses per month and completely excludes entertainment (other than web-based) or miscellaneous needs. It also excludes health care, since Jeff seems to get his for free. Otherwise, it'd be another $150 easily.

If the taxes are estimated somewhat correctly, someone earning $8.35 an hour would pull in $1,322.33 per month. They'd have enough to pay the bills listed above and have $132.33 left over.

And I have no idea what Jeff's actual expenses are. His rent may be lower or it may be higher. In Manhattan, KS (which is somewhat comparable to Tulsa), you're unlikely to find a single apartment for less than $600. I may be off on the estimated expenses, too.

Maybe you all are living like St. Francis. I personally haven't ever had to manage an income level that low, and it's been a decade since I've managed one even close to that. While I think buckling down and managing a tight budget would ultimately be good for Jeff, I can certainly understand his reluctance to accept something that leaves very little wiggle room.

That being said -- this needs to be part of your deliberation process when looking at jobs and possible offers, Jeff. Ask yourself, "What do I want," vs. "What do I need?" Because surviving on needs may be the critical step to build toward enjoying your wants.

[J-Mann]

J-Mann... totally off-topic, but how are you planning to vote next month? 

I'm ashamed to say it, but I probably won't. I'm in a weird limbo between residences, and although I'm still legally registered in Kansas, my primary residence will be in Kansas City MO as of this Friday. Plus, I'll be in Lexington KY on November 4.

I could early vote if I make it to my county in Kansas office before Friday, but that's doubtful. If I do, though, I'd be voting for Davis, Orman and Sherow.

[J-Mann]

There are people raising young children on $8.35 an hour

True statement. And I think Jeff could make some concessions so that a smaller wage is a more-acceptable wage -- eating at home and cutting back on TV would be top on the list.

Still, I don't think we should oversimplify how bare bones one would have to exist in order to make an $8.35 an hour wage work. Jeff is in a more-manageable situation due to having his parents' help, so he could get by on a smaller wage in order to build up experience, a somewhat-stable job history and start to pay down some debt. However, this is where the mentor / life coach / etc. comes into play to help him make that type of wage work -- because it wouldn't be easy:

Estimated pre-tax annual earnings at $8.35 an hour would be:

$17,368 -- that's assuming there is paid time off and / or vacation included.

Tax liability at that level would be low, but for sh[inks] and grins, let's assume $1,500 -- federal and state.

What would other reasonable monthly expenses be?

Rent          $300 / mo
Electric      $50 / mo
Water        $25 / mo
Food          $350 / mo (Can you get by with less? Sure ... but you'll eat unhealthy food)
Gas / Car   $150 / mo (This includes routine maintenance ... no idea if Jeff has car payments)
Clothing     $40 / mo (Don't expect someone to not buy clothing)
Phone        $75 / mo (Assume data and possible replacement at some point)
Internet     $50 / mo (Sorry, it's probably a necessity in this day and age)
Debt          $150 / mo (I have no idea what Jeff's debt is, but this is a reasonable amount)

That's $1,190 in expenses per month and completely excludes entertainment (other than web-based) or miscellaneous needs. It also excludes health care, since Jeff seems to get his for free. Otherwise, it'd be another $150 easily.

If the taxes are estimated somewhat correctly, someone earning $8.35 an hour would pull in $1,322.33 per month. They'd have enough to pay the bills listed above and have $132.33 left over.

And I have no idea what Jeff's actual expenses are. His rent may be lower or it may be higher. In Manhattan, KS (which is somewhat comparable to Tulsa), you're unlikely to find a single apartment for less than $600. I may be off on the estimated expenses, too.

Maybe you all are living like St. Francis. I personally haven't ever had to manage an income level that low, and it's been a decade since I've managed one even close to that. While I think buckling down and managing a tight budget would ultimately be good for Jeff, I can certainly understand his reluctance to accept something that leaves very little wiggle room.

That being said -- this needs to be part of your deliberation process when looking at jobs and possible offers, Jeff. Ask yourself, "What do I want," vs. "What do I need?" Because surviving on needs may be the critical step to build toward enjoying your wants.

Wow......

Total guess on my part. I know that there are places in the Plains states where rent is very low ... basement apartments and the like. If one had to be thrifty, it could be done.

Still, this assumes that he has all the other basics -- furniture and cooking utensils -- and completely excludes any costing for other basics like toiletries.

[J-Mann]

What bills do you have on a monthly basis? How much is each on average?

[J-Mann]

J-Mann, I prefer not to disclose my finances in any more detail.  Don't even ask privately.

Fine then! I'd tell you mine if you asked

I would recommend that you outline your necessary monthly spending (key word: necessary) and use that to determine the kind of wage you need, rather than picking an arbitrary number that you don't want to dip below. Maybe you already have.

It strikes me that a lot of people take on two or more jobs in order to make ends meet, and that's a possibility that you (and, to be fair, any of us) never consider. It's not like you don't have the free time to do a part-time shift of something on top of a normal, 40-hour work week.

And you may be considering pizza delivery a joke option, but while you're looking to get back on your feet, why not? You'd earn tips.

[J-Mann]

How does he hold down 1.5-2 jobs when he can't seem to hold down one?

Oh, I don't have the answer to that, particularly since my advice has fallen flat when trying to assist in keeping a single position. But, the theory is essentially that a lower wage requires less of the skills that Jeff seems to struggle with, hopefully providing more-secure employment and just more hours in order to accumulate the earnings he needs.

[J-Mann]

I'm loving this trip liveblog.

"15 Miles From Lunch" is a new fave.

Yes! Eraserhead, this would be a great title for next season.

Endorsed

xgrumps

X J-Mann

[J-Mann]

Just about 70 minutes away.  I imagine we'll have dinner at the Chili's that's close to the hotel.

Branch out a bit! You can eat at Chili's anywhere. I know, I know ... Blue Corn Cafe tomorrow. I promise if you just look at Yelp that you can find an inexpensive local place tonight, too. If you won't eat healthier, you might as well explore and broaden your pallet a bit!