Save the 10p starting rate!

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"Young, single people without families".

So much for the Daily Mail's "5.3 million families" comment...

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I was responding to the Mail's distortion.
 
I sympathise with the young workers and if it has a bad impact, it should be reversed.

However, a fair few of them could give up smoking and save at least a tenner a week- Cancer Research estimates 32% of 20-24 year olds smoke. It would help in the long term too. Doesn't the whole worse-off calculation taking cigarette taxes into account as well?

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Charities will also loose out to due to the changes and their effect on Gift Aid with charities now able to claim 25p of every £1 back as opposed to 28p. Darling did announce three years temporary relief to allow charities to budget for the years ahead but after this, charities will be hit by an effective 3% cut in donations.

I don't think it's quite 3%- it's £1.28 reduced to £1.25. They're claiming the income tax paid on it already.

That said, your points are valid.

Perhaps we ought to alter the Tax Credits so they're directly in less taxes?

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Where's that from? It sounds like a Tory press release.

When I read 5.3 million families, I make it 15 million people. This appears to be 5.3 million people.

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Where's that from? It sounds like a Tory press release.

When I read 5.3 million families, I make it 15 million people. This appears to be 5.3 million people.

Mr Fallon: “Mr Neale, Mr Chote gave evidence to us on Monday
and said that there were about 5.3 million families losing out from
the Budget. What is your figure?”

Mark Neale (HM Treasury, Managing Director, Budget, Tax &
Welfare): “I think the figure that Robert Chote gave you is in the
right ball-park.”

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It's the treasuries own figures. The Tories are, as good opposition parties do, seizing upon that.

"Losing out from the budget" does not equal "losing out from the rate change". Remember other stuff is going up as well, like the aforementioned tobacco and alcohol.

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Where's that from? It sounds like a Tory press release.

When I read 5.3 million families, I make it 15 million people. This appears to be 5.3 million people.

Mr Fallon: “Mr Neale, Mr Chote gave evidence to us on Monday
and said that there were about 5.3 million families losing out from
the Budget. What is your figure?”

Mark Neale (HM Treasury, Managing Director, Budget, Tax &
Welfare): “I think the figure that Robert Chote gave you is in the
right ball-park.”

---

It's the treasuries own figures. The Tories are, as good opposition parties do, seizing upon that.

"Losing out from the budget" does not equal "losing out from the rate change". Remember other stuff is going up as well, like the aforementioned tobacco and alcohol.

The quote was from the Treasury Select Committee in April 2007. It concerns last years budget.

It's still not the same thing. Other stuff went up in 2007 too.

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Then let's look at the impact of the thing. Up to £446 does not mean everyone loses £446.

What reason did the Treasury give for this change, anyway?

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7333496.stm

So this seems to apply to those without kids, mainly.

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Yes Ivan they will bear the brunt of it as I said and was outlined in the figures I posted. No one is disputing that.

But you seem to be going out of your way to try and excuse this. You've noticed it, but you've been questioning the figures and questioning the people it effects and how much they loose; 'just those without kids'. You're rationalising things down so it becomes pallatable.

I know you're a Labour supporter. But Gordon isn't spying on you He won't strike you down for daring to take an opposing view (unlike his own back-bench)

Actually, I'm mostly questioning the Daily Mail and Tory analysis on this. I don't trust the Tory leadership as far as I can throw them, so I want confirmatory figures.

I don't like the elimination of the 10p starting rate, but for most people, the increase in tax credits makes up for it.

The simplification of the tax system saves money that could be used for other services- surely you'd favour that.

I would, ultimately, like the 10p rate restored and the 20p basic kept. But money doesn't grow on trees and I'd prefer those without kids to deal with it as opposed to those who do.

Simple solution of course- raise the minimum wage to £7.00 an hour.

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1. You gave me the figures- I was pointing out that I want them.

2. I don't like it either, but it's £232 a year- max. For most people it's less than that. I've forgotten how you end up losing £232 a year, BTW.

3. That said, your point is valid. There should have been another way to pay for it.

4. Actually it affects kids more than it does older people. They're the ones deprived of opportunities as a result. The young single people can get help to increase their earnings.

Define "middle classes".

5. Remind me which party wants to raise the inheritance tax threshold?

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5. Remind me which party wants to raise the inheritance tax threshold?

Labour...after the Tories had announced they were going to do the same. Or did you forget that was now Labour policy?

You're right, but I doesn't mean I support either party on that issue. I'm not some robot- I do disagree with my party on occasions. I support the banning of cluster bombs for example- something I've asked the Prime Minister (when he was Chancellor) myself.

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1. I meant long-term impact on the person as a whole, not likelihood of occuring- it should have been clearer. Sorry.
2. Those short terms do add up. If you've got four 13 week jobs on your belt, that's a years experience, which opens up other jobs.
3. Speaking of unfair taxation, remind me which party's councils has the highest rate of council tax increases and pays its executives the highest?
4. OK, the Treasury needs to look it.
5. What people feel and what actually happens are two different things, but your point is valid. We need to explain this better.

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Perhaps we ought to alter the Tax Credits so they're directly in less taxes?

You mean raise the personal allowance? That would just work out as a tax cut for everyone.

No, I meant alter the PAYE system, so those with Tax Credits don't get the money taken out of their pay packets to begin with.

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Bumping this due to the whole issue.

What is Frank Field's proposal?

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Why not go 50:50? 15p basic, 21p standard?

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The Tories and the right-wing media (not saying you, afleitch) have been a bit dishonest on this- no change then. While the core voters may not read those papers, the floaters certainly do.

It looks rather bad. While the idea of simplification of the tax system is a good one, this could have been much better.

Darling has said he can't rewrite the Budget for this year- the financial year has already started, but he'll look at the issue in future Budgets.

Field's cheque proposal is a good one, but it's a question of finding the money.

A reversal of the 2p rate cut next year is going to be pounced on by the Tories- raising taxes in a downturn etc., but I think we could restore 15p or 10p via some tax alterations somewhere (maybe inheritance tax...)

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What is the no-tax threshold anyway ATM?

Curtailing WTC- I'd have to see the figures, but I'm not sure if that's going to hurt families. I also don't know how many people work in the WTC area- suspect unions will kick up a fuss.

I favour something that needs a good acronym- altering WTC so its a direct tax reduction via PAYE- the NI number would take care of that.

Is this the magic 1p on the top rate of tax that will pay for everything from abolishing tuition fees to more police, like the Lib Dems proposed.

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It's 'breaking news' but over on ConHome it appears the Tories may propose a £700 million rescue package for those affected by the aboltion of the 10p start rate. Along with proposals to introduce an element of free residential care for the elderly this is the sort of policy we need and I've been wanting for a long time.

Proposals for paying for this?

That said, not a bad idea, if they can find the money without service cuts.

Peter- £5,225 - £7,435? That's it? That's a rather small zone, isn't it?

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Proposals for paying for this?

If the answer to that is "cutting or scrapping tax credits" then insert bitter laughter here.

What is the Tory obsession with tax credits?

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Proposals for paying for this?

If the answer to that is "cutting or scrapping tax credits" then insert bitter laughter here.

What is the Tory obsession with tax credits?

What is the Labour obesssion with tax credits as an acceptable 'compensation' for higher rates of tax? How can they justify tax credits going to a couple on 30k a year but not to a young single person on 12k? Again it's all based on the 'assumption' that tax credits will 'cover all' no mater what you do to the tax system.

EDIT: Ultimately it is ideological as it ties people to the state making them reliant on the government as opposed to simply 'un taxing' them in the first place.

I didn't say I liked the system 100% (that 30k a year couple thing), but a couple with kids is somewhat more deserving than a single person on 12k a year. Emphasis on the somewhat. Not saying they shouldn't be helped, but there is such a thing as priority.

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How many of the tax rebels are, so to speak, "the usual people"?

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Labour is in the same position the Conservatives were in the 90's - drunk with its own inevitability, drunk with office and with career aspirations even amongst the most robust of the backbench. If Labour has any decency left it will vote against the abolition of the 10p rate and yes, against it's own self interest for the interests of workers.

You mean ensure that it loses the next election?

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Darling's statements "I can't re-write the budget" are hugely embarrassing.

Well, he can't really for this one- it's already come into effect.

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Hooray... I get a refund of sort, backdated as of the autumn, if they can hammer something out. Better save my wage slips and be first in line for a complicated re-claim form that goes through HMR&C! And do I get this every year? Until I'm old enough (because I'm just a little nipper) to claim WTC?

So we're getting the £7bn back...from where I don't know AND it's going to cost them more in administrative costs!

It would have been cheaper just to u-turn completely.

It would have been cheaper to have done this earlier.

What is Mr. Cameron planning to about poverty anyway, rather than opportunism?

Field has withdrawn his motion. This, for the time being, is over.

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http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+camerons+tax+cut+sketches/2104957?intcmp=news_fc_cameronguardian

So, Mr. Cameron?