First "real" Republican/Democrat presidents

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Truman was practically economically socialist by today's standards, and he won the 1948 election by playing up class warfare, accusing Dewey of being the candidate of the wealthy and elite (which is actually not true, Dewey was a liberal Republican, but it's still how he campaigned). He was far more populist than today's Dem party.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have no clue what that means.

Regardless, that is far from the antithesis of today's Democratic party, unless you mean it has moved too far to the right economically, which I agree with.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

how was he the antithesis then?

That means he'd be the equivalent of Jesse Helms today. Yeah right!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

yes, and it's wrong. The wealth gap is greater today than in the 60s.

Aside from that, you said he was the antithesis. That would make him exactly like Jesse Helms. That's a very tough claim to prove.

Also using this logic you could argue Eugene Debs would be a right winger today.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

ha ha that's funny. Especially since Dewey was closer to Kerry than Jesse Helms, proving the shift has been to right, not left.

Well you're basically saying Truman was unhappy with the conditions of the working class at his time, but you're sure he would be today, so he'd hate the Democrats. Then I could say Eugene Debs was unhappy about it but only because of his time, he'd be satisfied today. That's a big leap of assumption.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'll agree that FDR is a better example than Truman.

For Republicans, I'd say McKinley, although his VP definately wouldn't be a Republican today.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

McKinley was very laissez-faire and pro-business, and was very imperialistic. And I don't mean that as a compliment since I  hate McKinley.

Roosevelt doesn't strike me as a pro-corporate anti-environmentalist either.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

an anarchist, although it was mostly for attention to the anarchist cause.

Roosevelt was a hawk, but there are plenty of modern day hawkish Democrats ("Scoop" Jackson, Lieberman). There is no way he could be in the party of big business.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

FDR did not drive the modern Democratic Party. He certainly turned it around, but by no means are Democrats socialists.

Compare the party to the real socialists in Europe.

according to Al, they're a lot closer than we think, the term socialist is used differently in Europe, many Democrats would be considered socialists in Europe, including Kerry.