Wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I used to do this, but basically no one noticed/cared, so I quit. Today at work I was reminded of it by a girl from England originally and who lived there until she was 14, (her English mother married an American serviceman stationed at an Air Force base) had an orange and white striped longsleeved shirt on, but she denied that it was intentional and that she was even aware of the relevance of orange even though she said she is "not too fond" of St. Patrick's Day. Considering that this is also a girl who I once had to remind that Gordon Brown is no longer PM of the UK and is not aware of how to cast an absentee ballot I believe her. But anyway no it's not offensive, and specifically making sure to wear green on St. Patrick's Day if you're over 12 is stupid anyway.

I remember someone on AIM telling me how they had just seen a 30 Rock episode with Liz Lemon wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day, which should make her my dream girl.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

We get it BRTD, you hate the Irish. You don't have to make a topic about it every year.

He might be jealous that they get a holiday, and the Scandinavians don't (Viking Day not so huge in the US).

I'm part Norwegian, so I understand.

I doubt it. BRTD disapproves of seemingly any form of strong cultural identification other than band shirts.

Yes, with that being the real reason I dislike St. Patrick's Day.

Things that are often missed though:

-St. Patrick was not Irish, he was in fact one of those hated English.
-For centuries the color associated with St. Patrick was blue, not green.
-St. Patrick predates the Reformation and Catholic/Protestant divide and is just as beloved amongst Irish Protestants including Northern Ireland Unionists (even Ian Paisley.) He almost certainly would have had no problem with Protestants and wearing orange.

And yes I also really like St. Patrick. I have even made a FF/HP poll on him in the past calling him a FF. I dislike the stupid and childishly celebrated "holiday" that bears his name.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I should point out that if you Google this there are suggestions of doing this in a completely non-petty or offensive manner: http://www.examiner.com/article/wear-orange-on-st-patrick-s-day

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't normally get my 'news' about my own ethnic groups' cultural traditions (insofar as St Patrick's Day is an Irish cultural tradition, which I admit is a decidedly limited extent) from the 'Neighborhoods' section of examiner.com, but okay.

Well it's an editorial, not news.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I used to do this, but basically no one noticed/cared, so I quit.

So like all trolls, when no one notices you're an attention whore, you go away.   Hmmmmmmmmmm.

I was also quite a bit more immature back then.

Of course the real reason for this was the often absurd and obnoxious behavior of a minority contingent but still very visible one of Irish Americans. Who for the record I wasn't even aware of until I had the internet since I live in the Midwest. That certainly played a role in my later view of rejecting all types of cultural identification, at least ones based on ethnicity, rather than things you choose.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I used to do this, but basically no one noticed/cared, so I quit.

So like all trolls, when no one notices you're an attention whore, you go away.   Hmmmmmmmmmm.

I was also quite a bit more immature back then.

Of course the real reason for this was the often absurd and obnoxious behavior of a minority contingent but still very visible one of Irish Americans. Who for the record I wasn't even aware of until I had the internet since I live in the Midwest. That certainly played a role in my later view of rejecting all types of cultural identification, at least ones based on ethnicity, rather than things you choose.

What on Earth are you talking about?  I was certainly unaware of the cult of Italian-Americanism IRLz (I think I first heard about it from books), but St. Paul has a large Irish Fair every summer, and has a long and storied Irish-American community.

Perhaps, but North Dakota does not. There might've been more Native Americans in North Dakota at the time I grew up there than whites of non-German/Scandinavian ancestry.

I, for one, commend BRTD for his heroic acts of real life trolling.

It is one thing to wear orange to the office, quite another to wear it in a crowd of drunken, ignorant lunatics.

Well where was I wearing orange? The office.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

FWIW, one of my best friends has a first name with a very Irish spelling (Sean, as opposed to Shawn), has a very Irish last name, and doesn't give a sh!t in any way shape or form about being Irish, or about St. Patrick's Day. He also would never identify as Catholic in any sense or any type of religious identity besides atheist. But he is also "scene", so that might be a factor....but still you can see why it's hard for me to buy into that these type of stereotypes and identifications are so universal when it clearly doesn't apply to the people I know.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

one of my best friends

Okay, ignoring that this thread is pretty much pointless, I find it incredibly amusing that you just used the "some of my best friends are [X]" argument that you hear from horrible bigots all the time. Not calling you one, mind, just finding it really funny.

I wasn't really doing that, just pointing out there do exist Irish-Americans who don't give a sh!t about Irish culture or identity.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Literally the only time I pay attention to the clothes I put on now instead of just putting on the first shirt I grab from the clean laundry basket is when I'm going to a show that day and want to avoid being "that guy" or have a specific band shirt in mind that I see as most appropriate for the event. Actually applies to a few social events too, I specifically chose some band shirts for my high school reunion for example.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And in fact I bet that if I had any Irish ancestry my opinions on Irish culture and those who are obnoxious about it would remain the same. I'd probably seen as this by some.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

one of my best friends

Okay, ignoring that this thread is pretty much pointless, I find it incredibly amusing that you just used the "some of my best friends are [X]" argument that you hear from horrible bigots all the time. Not calling you one, mind, just finding it really funny.

I wasn't really doing that, just pointing out there do exist Irish-Americans who don't give a sh!t about Irish culture or identity.

And what's that supposed to demonstrate to those of us who do?

Wait, are you Irish? If so that also works against the reasoning that I've always been told by lots of Irish posters that being Catholic is integral to being Irish.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

one of my best friends

Okay, ignoring that this thread is pretty much pointless, I find it incredibly amusing that you just used the "some of my best friends are [X]" argument that you hear from horrible bigots all the time. Not calling you one, mind, just finding it really funny.

I wasn't really doing that, just pointing out there do exist Irish-Americans who don't give a sh!t about Irish culture or identity.

And what's that supposed to demonstrate to those of us who do?

Wait, are you Irish? If so that also works against the reasoning that I've always been told by lots of Irish posters that being Catholic is integral to being Irish.

...I'm...I have both Catholic and Protestant Irish ancestors...

Well I'm sure many Americans do. I'm talking though about the premise that people like oakvale like to lecture me on that identifying as Catholic is integral to being Irish and this should be done even if one is an atheist, that it's well known I really dislike. I also know my atheist Irish friend I mentioned would feel the same.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And in fact I bet that if I had any Irish ancestry my opinions on Irish culture and those who are obnoxious about it would remain the same. I'd probably seen as this by some.

Nah, I'm pretty sure that knowing you you would probably be a hardcore Sinn Fein supporter and be making the same "F*** the Nazi Monarchy!" thread every March 17th.

You're forgetting that I still wouldn't be Catholic. Even if raised as such, I'd convert, since there'd be no reason for me not to. After all I put absolutely no value whatsoever in culture, tradition, or what my ancestors did. And that would make me an...Irish Protestant. Meaning I'd be inclined to sympathize with unionists even more, and would have no reason to be sympathetic to Catholics in Northern Ireland.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

brtd i love you but you know you litereally make no sense ever. you would not be the same person if you were had irish ancestry.

Why not? As I noted before not all Irish Americans are obnoxious about it. If my parents were Irish but as big about their ethnicity as they were about being German or Swedish (that is basically not at all) it would be essentially a non-factor. And how would that prevent me from getting into the scene? Like I noted, my friend is in the scene, and does not care one iota about being Irish.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think what we're getting at, BRTD, is that for people who place a high value on their culture, their culture is a 'scene' of sorts. Irish-American Catholic BRTD would very possibly have a ready-made 'scene' in which to get drunk and engage in reductionist politics for his entire life.

Also, drunk (?) Oakvale is awesome.

Well perhaps but I don't place a high value on my culture. Like what of my friend mentioned before? Similarly I'm pretty sure you don't hear as much about Italy from Guy Picciotto as you do from Phil.

Also North Dakota doesn't have much of an Irish culture "scene" to get engaged in.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

See the thing is:

1-This wouldn't change my musical taste.
2-I couldn't get obsessed in Irish Catholic culture because being such a Catholic would mean contradicting my basic values.

I mean why is it so hard to imagine Irish Catholic BRTD getting into the scene and renouncing Catholicism and then evolving basically the exact same way?

BTRD, if heritage does not matter to you, why do you display the Swedish flag?

Ya know, I can't even remember. I put it up there a long time ago. I think it might've been to troll someone. I really forgot it was even there until you reminded me. The only thing I remember about what flag I put up was that I had a Vietnam flag during the 2008 election season as an anti-McCain symbol.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just wondering.

Yeah thinking about a bit I think it was either a counter to someone on an "OMG I'M SO IRISH" or Phil on a "I'M SO ITALIAN" kick, or something about being thankful to Swedish voting patterns in the Midwest. Mind you my background is basically just "generic Midwesterner", half Swedish/half German, as generic as it comes. And I'm even part Catholic in ancestry, 1/4 Catholic, 1/4 Baptist, 1/2 Lutheran. Which might actually play a role in my ambivalence to heritage and culture, I don't come from a background with type of strong culture to begin with.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

1-This wouldn't change my musical taste.

It very well might.

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If you'd been raised Catholic you might perceive your basic values as being different. I think your basic value, as it stands, is in fact developing obsessions because you think that makes you better able to, as Plato would say, 'carve nature at its joints'.

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Because he'd be acculturated very differently.

The thing you aren't taking into account is there is basically no difference between "Catholic culture" and "Lutheran culture" (assuming said things even exist) in North Dakota and most of Minnesota. There is no real segregation or signs of cultural differences between the people from each group (it's not like it was an issue in my high school) and conversions are very commonplace, extremely uncontroversial and don't really bug anyone besides hardcore right wing Catholics and olds who are probably mostly dead today but unfortunately weren't in 1981. It's tough to imagine the church I was confirmed in* having much of an effect on my development at all. This is just not a big deal in the Upper Midwest and a big part of why I found the crazy "cultural Catholicism" people talk about so alien.

*Especially considering how much of a joke my confirmation was to me.

Just wondering.

Yeah thinking about a bit I think it was either a counter to someone on an "OMG I'M SO IRISH" or Phil on a "I'M SO ITALIAN" kick, or something about being thankful to Swedish voting patterns in the Midwest. Mind you my background is basically just "generic Midwesterner", half Swedish/half German, as generic as it comes. And I'm even part Catholic in ancestry, 1/4 Catholic, 1/4 Baptist, 1/2 Lutheran. Which might actually play a role in my ambivalence to heritage and culture, I don't come from a background with type of strong culture to begin with.

I get what you're saying.  I also have a heavily-mixed heritage, both ethnically and religiously; I'm far more of a mutt than you, actually.  I agree that people should be able to choose their religion regardless of ethnicity.  I've not been raised strongly in any religious tradition, but I am leaning towards joining the ELCA, which seems to fit my beliefs.  However, it was quite close between the ELCA and a couple of other liberal Protestant denominations; I'm giving the Lutherans an edge as a nod to my little bit of Norwegian background.  You obviously don't approve of that.  Heritage may not mean everything, but it's OK for it to count a little.  I'm also proud that my Norwegian ancestors were staunch Republicans.  In the 1800s, when the Republicans were good, that is.  The Norwegians hated slavery.

Actually I don't have too much of a problem with that, considering I was ELCA for most of my life (and still am I suppose on Christmas and when I'm with my family.) My mom is from the Catholic side of the family and apparently had a lot of issues with the church, decided to not get married in it and get married in my dad's ELCA, and this had some friction with some older relatives who are now all dead today, which contributed greatly to my hatred of "cultural Catholicism". It's an violation of one's individual freedom.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I actually did a see a bunch of people at church (Protestant obviously) wearing green for the record.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

1-This wouldn't change my musical taste.

It very well might.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If you'd been raised Catholic you might perceive your basic values as being different. I think your basic value, as it stands, is in fact developing obsessions because you think that makes you better able to, as Plato would say, 'carve nature at its joints'.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because he'd be acculturated very differently.

The thing you aren't taking into account is there is basically no difference between "Catholic culture" and "Lutheran culture" (assuming said things even exist) in North Dakota and most of Minnesota. There is no real segregation or signs of cultural differences between the people from each group (it's not like it was an issue in my high school) and conversions are very commonplace, extremely uncontroversial and don't really bug anyone besides hardcore right wing Catholics and olds who are probably mostly dead today but unfortunately weren't in 1981. It's tough to imagine the church I was confirmed in* having much of an effect on my development at all. This is just not a big deal in the Upper Midwest and a big part of why I found the crazy "cultural Catholicism" people talk about so alien.

*Especially considering how much of a joke my confirmation was to me.

Er, this (1) isn't at all uncommon outside the Midwest and (2) is a recent phenomenon (50s/60s-ish?), even in the Upper Midwest.  You must not talk to many people your grandparents' age.

I got the impression it wasn't just a Midwestern thing, but in the past I've been told it is a big deal in the rest of the US and I just didn't see it because of a Midwestern view. And the only time I talk to people my grandparents' age is if I'm giving them tech support.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It's possible that Irish Catholic BRTD wouldn't be from North Dakota.

Then the difference would not come from being Irish. And I'd probably still put as much value on culture and heritage, I never did even as a teenager.

And come to think of it, a Jawbreaker shirt as I wore today is kind of appropriate for St. Patrick's Day, it's celebrating a rather important part of my culture.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The more interesting question is: Why did you delete your 2011 poll on the same topic?

If I did, it wasn't recently.

It could've just have been naturally pruned. If not I deleted it some other time in the last two years for whatever reason.