Israel general discussion

[MalaspinaGold]

If this is Elkin's bill, then no way it passes. With Livni and Lapid voting nay, Bibi would need to a) hold all Likud MKs (not guaranteed- Livnat abstained on the cabinet vote) and b) get all the Haredi MKs (even less likely).

Bibi must be confident that the elections will go his way if he's pulling off this stunt.

[MalaspinaGold]

Looks like the vote has been postponed by a week. Bibi getting cold feet.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628223

[MalaspinaGold]

If this is any indication, Shas would not look to kindly at it either:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628501

[MalaspinaGold]

2 new polls today:

Knesset Channel
Likud-23
Bayit-Yehudi-18
Labor-14
Yesh Atid-13
UTJ-8
Meretz-8
Beitenu-7
Shas-7
Raam-Taal/Balad-7
Kachlon-7
Hatnua-4
Hadash-4

Smith/Globes
Likud-23
Bayit Yehudi-16
Labor-15
Beiteinu- 11
Yesh Atid-10
Shas-10
Kachlon-9
Meretz-8
UTJ-7
Hadash-5
Raam-Taal-3
Balad-3

EDIT: Has anyone seen any polls on the Jewish State bill?

[MalaspinaGold]

New Haaretz Poll:

Likud: 24
Bayit Yehudi: 16
Labor: 13
Kachlon: 12
Yesh Atid: 11
Beiteinu: 11
UTJ: 8
Shas: 6
Meretz: 6
Hadash: 5
Hatnuah: 4
Raam-Taal: 4

[MalaspinaGold]

Is most of Herzog's support coming from Meretz, or what?

[MalaspinaGold]

AAAAND Bibi calls snap elections.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.629512?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[MalaspinaGold]

Last week three women came forward accusing Bayit Yehudi MK Yinon Magal of sexual harrasment while he worked at Walla!. He'll be stepping down.

Was frequently touted as a RISING STAR for JH, being a secular and all. Of course he had already made public he was an idiotic sleazeball, so whatever.

[MalaspinaGold]

Interesting Haaretz interview with Shas MK Yaakov Margi, Somewhat of a "Red Shasnik", to borrow the British/Canadian phraseology.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.690869

[MalaspinaGold]

A fringe charecter recently shot by a Palestinian for his third temple activities. would fit better in right of JH, can't see Bibi letting him (he's also a political ally of Feiglin)

I obviously know who Glick is. I wouldn't care about some average Likudnik becoming an MK, since I'm to their right (and given recent developments also to BY's right; would probably vote Zehut now). It would be interesting if Glick were to become the one who holds the balance of power for the coalition.

I'd like to see Barkat become PM in the future and I am very happy he became a member of Likud. At this point I've become tired of Netanyahu, who hurts the country and impedes progress on important issues. He's only there for himself.

Stop.

[MalaspinaGold]

Stop.

Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.

There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

[MalaspinaGold]

Stop.

Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.

There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

What is so bad about Feiglin? I'm not planning on voting for him, but I can appreciate that he is an independent thinker and tries to have a consistent world view even when I don't agree with him, and isn't content to have the convenient opinions about everything other then security/settlements.

They say the same thing about Zoabi.
Evaluating politicians in many ways resembles evaluating atlas posters: edgy =/= good.

[MalaspinaGold]

Stop.

Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.

There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

What is so bad about Feiglin? I'm not planning on voting for him, but I can appreciate that he is an independent thinker and tries to have a consistent world view even when I don't agree with him, and isn't content to have the convenient opinions about everything other then security/settlements.

They say the same thing about Zoabi.

Ok, so what is your problem with Feiglin beyond your general problem with right wing Israelis?

Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)

[MalaspinaGold]

Well, on this topic, some interesting things have been happening, specifically re: the aftermath of the Duma firebombing.

Essentially there have been reports that the Shin Bet has been using "enhanced interrogation" (aka torture) on some young (mostly teenage/early 20s) radical Jews, who were part of the group believed responsible for the firebombing, and still considered suspects. This has drawn condemnation from the usual suspects (e.g.  B'tselem) but also from some parts of the radical right (because "A Jew doesn't torture a Jew"). This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.

Then this happened.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/30-wedding-guests-to-be-questioned-over-clip-cheering-duma-murders/

[MalaspinaGold]

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.  

Agree with this.

This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.

I'd been disappointed with Bennett for a while already, but Shaked's approval of torturing Jews is indeed very disturbing. Fortunately the Tekumah MPs are being more principled. I can't believe how Bennett is currently framing opposition to torture as opposition to the existence of the state and its institutions.

On Feiglin:

Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)

He is actually not that theocratic at all, and I agree with Danny: to me he actually seems a truly likeable person.

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".

[MalaspinaGold]

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.

Shin Bet has, and continues to vociferously deny torture took place.
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/

@DavidB: you can have whatever opinion you want: what I object to is labeling it as principle, as in principled opposition to torture. That requires being against it for people you don't like also.

For reference:

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[MalaspinaGold]

Okay, Herzog appears to be adopting the old Kadima line (unilateral disengagement from the Palestinians and foregoing negotiations) rather than coming out as a one stater.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.698391
Translation: It's gonna be the best, classiest, most luxurious wall we've ever had.

[MalaspinaGold]

Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

Didn't Belgium just go two and a half years without a government or something? Somehow I don't see Israel and Palestine doing any better.
And, at that point, why bother having unity if it's just cosmetic?

[MalaspinaGold]

Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.

and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.

First up, I'm not interested in being the bigger person. Not anymore. We've been trying to do that for centuries, and it led us to the ovens. That's why Israel is so important to me - because it's the best insurance against a second Holocaust we've ever had.

And second, I'm not calling you anti-semitic. I haven't seen enough evidence to go with that, unlike other posters, who like to throw around slurs and make explicitly anti-semitic comparisons. I do think, however, your focus on Israel's "culpability" for Iraq has shades of anti-semitic arguments and you should probably drop it. Bush didn't need any outside forces pushing him to war with Iraq. Israel bought into the presented evidence just like most of America.

I want you to know that I condemn the holocaust just like everyone else. I also want you to know I don't approve of Israel's treatment of Palestine. Both are wrong and my heart goes out to the victims and families in both situations.

My whole point on Israel and Iraq is that it only shows how much influence Israel has on America and it should not be.

I support a two state solution with a decreased Israel lobby influence while also protecting religious freedoms for Jewish people here and other religious groups.

I do not want a second Holocaust. I do not want Israel wiped off the map. I simply want what I believe to be an injustice to be corrected and that is a free Palestine.

Except, see, once again you have this backwards.

Bush wanted the US to go to war in Iraq even before 9/11. This is confirmed. Israel may have agreed with him (especially after being presented the same evidence), but they certainly didn't "influence" him.

If anything, on Iraq, Israel did the US' dirty work, not the other way around. Israel had reasons to want Saddam gone, for sure, starting with Saddam's bombing of Israel during the Gulf War, but that just meant they had common cause with Bush and his long-standing grudge.

So if you want to make a case about the Israel lobby, Iraq is very much the wrong place to do it.

Go watch what Netanyahu said before Congress. He has since gotten a second stint as PM. Now that he is back in power, he should be reminded of his words and no Iraq invasion means no destabilization which led these monsters to rise up.

His prediction of enormous positive reverberations has been the complete opposite. Let him and his military play their part in destroying these terrorists.

You do realize that at the time Netanyahu had exactly the same status as private citizen Yossi Schmo?
Of course the actual prime minister at the time (Sharon) privately advised Bush against going into Iraq.

[MalaspinaGold]

And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.

I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

[MalaspinaGold]

And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.

I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?

The purpose of this board is for Danny to give us updates on the most recent Israeli junk polls, hnv1 to alert us on which labour bureaucrat is stabbing his rival for control of a doomed party, and DavidB to  remind us that, yes, srugim are a thing. Not included is overgrown manchildren from the 2016 board whinging about how they REALLY REALLY HATE ISRAEL for the twenty thousandth time. Your presence is unwanted, and a nuisance. Begone.

[MalaspinaGold]

And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.

I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?

The purpose of this board is for Danny to give us updates on the most recent Israeli junk polls, hnv1 to alert us on which labour bureaucrat is stabbing his rival for control of a doomed party, and DavidB to  remind us that, yes, srugim are a thing. Not included is overgrown manchildren from the 2016 board whinging about how they REALLY REALLY HATE ISRAEL for the twenty thousandth time. Your presence is unwanted, and a nuisance. Begone.

I have a right to my opinion as do you.

The etiquette for ignorant babble is comparable to that for nudism- if you MUST express yourself, do so within the confines of your own home, alone, else risk getting called out by angry passersby.

[MalaspinaGold]

Meanwhile, the story of the Hebron soldier who shot dead a wounded terrorist that had attacked one of his fellow soldiers a few minutes before is blowing up in the hands of Benjamin Netanyahu. The video, which prompted both international and national criticism of the soldier's conduct, was released by B'Tselem. The UN and ministers Benjamin Netanyahu and Moshe Ya'alon (Defense) condemned the soldier's action, whereas MKs Avigdor Lieberman (YB), Bezalel Smotrich (BY/Tekuma) and Oren Hazan (Likud) publicly supported the soldier. The IDF announced that an investigation would take place. On Friday, however, a second video was published, in which it became apparent that the soldier might have had a reason to believe that the terroris was, in fact, wearing an explosive vest. This prompted more public figures to come out in support of the soldier.

The story has become the talk of the town in Israel, and it is not the first one: a few years ago, the fairly similar story of "David HaNahalawi", a soldier who had pointed his gun at a minor threatening him, became an issue. Of course, this is a very sensitive subject and since almost all non-haredi Israelis have served in the IDF at some point, there is much solidarity with the Hebron soldier. Most Likud voters presumably stand with the soldier, so Netanyahu needs to hope this story does not drag on for too long. He might be unlucky: the soldier might be prosecuted with murder.

So the IDF must be wrong too...
IDF officials reject claims soldier in Hebron feared bomb/

DavidB. has long shown himself to be disrespectful of the IDF and it's leaders. SAD!

So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me.

I assume you're one of those who justified the Paris attacks because ZOMG France is droning innocent Syrians?

[MalaspinaGold]

Moshe Gafni (UTJ MK, belonging to the non-Hasidic faction of the party -- Degel HaTorah) stated in a haredi magazine that he wants JH out of the coalition and ZU in. He also took a jab at party leader Yaakov Litzman (who leads the Hasidic faction of the party --  Agudat Yisrael), stating that Litzman "is friends with people who are destroying the Torah world and with the head of a party that isn't working in the interest of the Haredi community" (=Bennett).

You gotta love Israeli politics.

On another note, ZU voters will be thrilled by the perspective of Herzog propping up a Bibi-Bennett government just when Bibi needs it the most. Especially considering the fact that many of them voted for them because of their only campaign issue, namely "PLS NO BIBI ANYMORE".

I've been following Israeli politics for a while, and I still can't figure out what the internal politics behind Degel and Agudas. I've always had a soft spot for Litzman because of his decent tenure as deputy Health Minister, but also for Gafni for other reasons (such as somewhat social democratic economic views.) Good to see he hates The Bald One almost as much as I do.

[MalaspinaGold]

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map

Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?

Hatnua isn't really to Labour's right on some issues and Labour SDs are sometimes the most right wing in the party. Socialists and human rights don't get along (it's tearing Meretz from the inside) it was a forced union that happened due the circumstances of the early 90's

Can you go more into depth about this?