German legislative election, 2017

[Sozialliberal]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

#best analysis

https://www.thelocal.de/20160725/merkels-refugee-policy-was-reckless-die-linke

The leader of Linke is f[inks]ing garbage.

Whatever you think about Wagenknecht,her views are not representative of the party.

And is saying Merkel's refugee policy reckless really the worst thing ever.

She's the leader, her views are the party.

LOL, in case you've missed it: The party has changed since Honecker left. It's now accepted that members might have a different opinion from that of the party leadership sometimes. They won't arrest them.

Obviously the concept of "voting for" someone doesn't exist as much in a PR system, but if I lived in Germany, I'd have two ironclad rules in regards to any direct election of a person:

-I'd never vote for a WWII veteran.
-I'd never vote for a Stasi veteran.

I agree with this.

I agree only in the case of high-ranking veterans, but not in the case of low-ranking ones. Look, you and I are living in a pluralistic democracy. So it's very easy for us to judge people who lived in a totalitarian dictatorship and were brainwashed into following the official state ideology. I believe in giving people a second chance after some time has passed if they sincerely show remorse for their misdeeds.

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

To be fair, the antifa movement in Germany is far bigger, far broader in terms of ideology and thus far more influential, than say in the US, or even France where the movement was born. So its a valid point, even if there are a few loonies.

Fair enough, but I still don't get why I'm supposed to dislike a party just because some hooligan through a pastry at one of its leaders.

e: Wagenknecht's great crime seems to be saying that Germany shouldn't take more than one million refugees per year. It's difficult to see what's so outrageous and horrifying about that.

Something else bothers me about her. In 2006, a memorial stone dedicated to the victims of Stalinism was put up beside the Memorial to the Socialists in a Berlin cemetery, where Die Linke commemorate Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht every year, who co-founded the Communist Party of Germany in 1919 and were murdered in the same year. Sahra Wagenknecht called this memorial stone a "provocation for many socialists and communists". Whereas other Die Linke politicians such as Katja Kipping, Bernd Riexinger and Gregor Gysi lay down floral wreaths in front of the memorial stone to the victims of Stalinism after commemorating Luxemburg and Liebknecht, Wagenknecht and her husband Oskar Lafontaine don't do that.

This time: FDP

Why do you so commonly support centrist parties?? Are you an avowed "incrementalist" like MAINEiac?

I was a naive left-leftist 10-15 years ago, but became more centrist over the years, yeah.

Centrism is the way forward, so I will back those parties with common-sense policies, except for people like Hillary Clinton, who are frauds.

I wouldn't call the FDP centrist. They're clearly to the right of CDU/CSU on economics.

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

To be fair, the antifa movement in Germany is far bigger, far broader in terms of ideology and thus far more influential, than say in the US, or even France where the movement was born. So its a valid point, even if there are a few loonies.

I, as a German, got the same impression of the Antifa as Averroës.

[Sozialliberal]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

What's the appeal of Frei Wahler? I thought they were just a bunch of CSU dissidents?

What I like about the Free Voters is that they reject any kind of political extremism, no matter if it comes from the left or the right. Apart from trying to find the political middle ground and advocating for more subsidiarity, direct democracy and transparency of the state, the individual members have pretty diverse views on issues, which they think is a strength. They also like to use the words "down-to-earth" and "common sense" a lot.

To get a better understanding of the Free Voters, let's take a look at their federal chairman. His name is Hubert Aiwanger, and he's not a regular kind of politician. Aiwanger is a folksy small-scale farmer. His family keeps about 60 pigs and 35 cattle on their farm in a Bavarian hamlet of about 70 people, where he lives when he's not busy with politics. I think Aiwanger is excellent at delivering speeches, and he radiates a lot of confidence when's delivering them. He reminds me a little bit of Jimmy Carter. Carter's message in 1976 and Aiwanger's in 2017 is basically this: "I'm a man from the country who speaks plain and simple English/German. Federal politics is not as good as it used to be, but I want to restore the trust in politics." Of course, the current situation in Germany is not as bad as the situation in the United States directly after the Watergate scandal, but I think the trust in politics is considerably lower now than it was 30 or 40 years ago.

While I'd say that the Free Voters' electorate in their stronghold Bavaria consists mostly of former CSU voters, I'd also point out that there are some issues on which the Free Voters disagree with the CSU and agree with the SPD/Greens in the Bavarian state parliament. What happened in Bavaria was that the CSU uninterruptedly stayed in power for so long, and they were becoming arrogant over time. They acted as if they owned Bavaria, and they still do. Those were ideal conditions for the Free Voters to thrive. They're the third largest party in the state parliament now. They got more votes than the Greens, the FDP or Die Linke in the last state election.

I voted for the Pirates in 2013, but I switched to the Free Voters because the Pirate Party has collapsed and I think the Free Voters have more realistic views on immigration/asylum, which has become such an important issue since the crisis broke out in 2015. There's definitely a policy overlap between the two parties. They're both in favour of higher state transparency and more direct democracy.

On the one hand, the Free Voters are in favour of prohibiting large donations to political parties, preventing that high-ranking public office holders work in the private sector directly after the end of their political career, regulating system-relevant banks more, keeping public infrastructure under state ownership.

On the other hand, they have also business-friendly policies: Eliminating bureaucratic regulations, promoting start-up companies, assisting small and medium-sized enterprises with digitalization, introducing an immigration law based on the Canadian model.

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

Really? You prefer Die Linke to the FDP and the Greens? I thought you were more of a Free Voters person who, of the bigger parties, prefers FDP.

Oh, you think that because I said something positive about Die Linke? Well, actually no. If I really had only those six options on my ballot, I'd vote either for the FDP or the SPD. I'm aware that my politics may seem a bit contradictory to some, but let me explain: On the one hand, I'm in favour of promoting an entrepreneurial spirit and eliminating bureaucratic regulations, which is what the FDP stands for. On the other hand, I want the state to provide a strong social safety net and give real opportunities to disadvantaged people, which is what the SPD is supposed to stand for.

I strongly disagree with Die Linke on some issues. While the FDP is the party of big business, Die Linke is the party of big government. However, I must acknowledge that they're currently the only party in the Bundestag that steadfastly resists corporate lobbying. If the opinion polls indicated that they're in danger of dropping out of the Bundestag, I could be tempted to hold my nose and vote for Die Linke because I think their opposition work is much needed in today's Germany.

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

LOL, "too much" culture of open debate often constitutes one of the Greens' main problems compared to the other parties.

(Well, while I don't have a problem with it personally, it's a problem that the media tends to scandalize lack of conformity.)

Boris Palmer, mayor of Tübingen and Green party member, spoke out in favour of limiting the number of refugees in Germany; putting up fences on the external borders of the EU; and deporting violent refugees back to their home countries, even if they're from Syria. A fellow Green party member mentioned Palmer's views in a speech at a party conference and literally told him to "just shut up". Is that a culture of open debate? That's not what I imagine.

[Sozialliberal]

I always thought the Free Voters kind of occupied the same niche that Kretschmann's Greens occupy in BaWü. Is that fair?

In terms of policy, they're pretty close. I'd say the key difference is that Kretschmann is basically Merkel's political twin, whereas the Free Voters have a populist anti-establishment side to them. A Merkel vs Kretschmann debate would probably be boring to watch because they have very similar personalities. A Merkel vs Aiwanger debate, on the other hand, I'd imagine to be entertaining because Aiwanger is quite argumentative and spirited.

By the way, if the Free Voters entered government in Bavaria, I'd be excited but would also be aware of the risk that they could lose too much of their anti-establishment appeal and subsequently drop out after the next election. However, I think Aiwanger is capable of negotiating a good coalition deal. The Free Voters say that they want to govern, but only if they can actually make a difference. I hope that would be enough to keep them in.

While Kretschmann does well both in rural and urban areas, the Free Voters usually receive their lowest shares of the vote in the big cities. I guess that's partly because Aiwanger, a farmer who is sometimes being teased about his heavy Lower Bavarian accent, is too much of a rural type to appeal to urban voters. Michael Piazolo, a professor for European studies who heads the Free Voters' Munich branch, is more of an urban type and I think highly of him, but he simply doesn't have the same charisma as Aiwanger.

The Free Voters do try to appeal to the urban electorate, too. For example, they played a key role in abolishing the tuition fees for higher education in Bavaria in 2013, which is their greatest accomplishment so far. Tuition fees are more of an urban issue because there are no universities out in the country. The Free Voters collected 27,048 signatures for a petition against the tuition fees, reaching the minimum number of 25,000 signatures prescribed by the Bavarian law on plebiscites. The next step, according to the law, was that at least 10% of the eligible voters sign the petition in their local town/village halls within a fixed 14-day period. 1,352,618 citizens (14.3% of the people eligible to vote) signed in. Then the matter had to be voted on in the Bavarian state parliament. The Free Voters, the SPD and the Greens voted against the tuition fees. The CSU, who initially were in favour of tuition fees, changed their mind after 14.3% of the eligible voters signed the petition and voted against them, too. The FDP was the only party that voted in favour of keeping the tuition fees. The tuition fees were subsequently abolished. If the majority of the state parliament had voted against the proposal, there would have been a referendum on this matter (as prescribed by the law). Aiwanger likes to say that the Free Voters have thereby accomplished more for the common good in the few years since they entered parliament than the Bavarian SPD has in the last 50 years.

A bit about the history of the Free Voters: The Free Voters party grew out of so called "free voter groups". Imagine someone wants to be involved in the local politics of their home town/village/district but doesn't want to join a political party for whatever reason. A typical reason would be disliking the top-down approach of the traditional parties. The electoral law allows forming voter groups, which don't have the legal status of parties, in local councils. The voter groups can therefore be viewed as a type of grassroots movement. Voter groups are especially successful in rural areas of southern Germany, where they're sometimes even the largest groups in the local councils. Some voter groups started to think about participating in state elections, too. That was mainly because they thought that the local authorities are underfunded and have too little decision-making power. However, the crux of the matter is that you can't take part in state elections as a voter group. You need to have the legal status of a party to do that. Many local politicians who are members of voter groups are opposed to the idea of founding a party to take part in state elections. After all, they joined a voter group because they didn't want party politics in the first place. As far as I know, the first time a party founded by voter groups took part in a state election was in Rhineland-Palatinate in 1987. They used the name "Free Voter Group". That's why politicians of the Free Voters party usually have some experience in local politics. Aiwanger started in local politics, too.

Boris Palmer, mayor of Tübingen and Green party member, spoke out in favour of limiting the number of refugees in Germany; putting up fences on the external borders of the EU; and deporting violent refugees back to their home countries, even if they're from Syria. A fellow Green party member mentioned Palmer's views in a speech at a party conference and literally told him to "just shut up". Is that a culture of open debate? That's not what I imagine.

Telling Boris Palmer to "shut up" is excersing free speech. Just like Boris Palmer is excersing free speech when he expresses those views you mentioned above.

As a matter of fact, Canan Bayram - the one who told Boris Palmer to "shut up" - also heavily criticized her own party's lead candidates in the very same speech. She compared Cem Özdemir and Katrin Göring-Eckardt to "CDU local-level chairman". And this was the inaugural adress of the whole convention, held right before party chairman Özdemir held his speech. Now, explain to me how this constitutes "a lack of open debate"? Do you know any other political party where it is even conceivable that the federal chairman of the party is critized in this manner in the inaugural adress of the whole convention? Is it even conceivable that Angela Merkel is called a "Green party local-level chairwoman" in the inaugural adress of a CDU national convention? Do you really think this is "a lack of open debate"?? Wouldn't it be in fact a lack of open debate had Canan Bayram not held her speech at the convention?

Has anyone within the party ever actively attempted to prevent Boris Palmer to speak at a Green convention? Has anyone within the party ever attempted to expel Boris Palmer from the party? Has anyone ever attempted to oust Boris Palmer as mayor of Tübingen? The answer is no on all three accounts. He's free to say anything he wants. He just shouldn't accept that everybody praises him over it. There's a right to free speech, not a right to be praised for your opinions.

As a side note... Canan Bayram was of course pandering to her own base in a pretty shameless manner. Bayram currently tries to succeed Hans-Christian Ströbele in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg as the only directly elected Green member of parliament. Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg is arguably one of the most left-wing electoral districts in the whole of Germany. And the Green voters in that district certainly constitute THE most left-wing Green voter base in any district anywhere. Harshly criticizing Boris Palmer scores points there. Harshly criticizing the lead candidates and chairmen of the national Green party also scores points there.

Canan Bayram was pandering to her base because in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg it's either the Green Party or the Left Party who wins the district. Just like Boris Palmer is probably pandering to his base down in Baden-Württemberg with some of the remarks he usually makes. It's just politics. It's for that reason that I didn't really like Bayram's speech myself because it just came across like a opportunistic stunt to me. It was so obvious and transparent. Ah, well, and I didn't like it because I see no reason to unneccessarily trigger Boris Palmer. He just becomes totally insufferable for the next three months if you troll him like that. Of, course Bayram doesn't care about that either because she doesn't have to deal with Palmer directly up there in Kreuzberg.

Thanks for the background info. Well, I wrote about a culture of open debate. In my opinion, telling someone to shut up in a speech is uncultured. I can disagree with somebody and still treat them with respect.